The Axe Files - Ep. 14: Sheriff Tom Dart

Transcription

1 The Axe Files - Ep. 14: Sheriff Tom Dart Released Dec. 3, 2015 [00:00:09] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And now from the University of Chicago Institute of Politics, "The Axe Files" with your host David Axelrod. DAVID AXELROD, "THE AXE FILES" HOST: If you don't live in Chicago or the Chicago area you may not have heard of Tom Dart, the sheriff of Cook County. But if you're a student of criminal justice reform in this country you probably have a Tom who came out of a traditional Chicago political background, became sheriff of Cook County, and very quickly realized what he was dealing with in running the largest jail in America. And the kind of people who get caught up in the criminal justice system who shouldn't be there and shouldn't be sitting in a jail, the mentally ill, the poor, guilty of shoplifting and other minor crimes who end up spending months sometimes years in incarceration. And he has implemented some incredible reforms. I sat down with him the other day and talked about the state of our criminal justice system and what we can do about it. So Tom Dart, you are sheriff of Cook County, you've become a major voice nationally on the issue of criminal justice reform. But I want to -- before we talk about all of those issues, I want to talk about your career path because -- SHERIFF TOM DART, COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS: It's quite tortured. AXELROD: Yes. Well, it had its zigs and zags but the thing is that you started off in a very traditional kind of way in Chicago politics. You come from a family that sort of was involved in Chicago politics. And you started off on this -- the route that a lot of Chicago politicians take. Tell me a little bit about where you come from and how you got to where you are today because it's -- as you say not a straight line. DART: No. There was nothing straight about it. And it's interesting because my father was involved on the periphery of politics. He worked for the first Mayor Daley as First Assistant Corporation Counsel. So, we had government in our DNA I guess. But my father was obsessed with the notion that I don't -- shouldn't get involve with it. He thought I was too honest and he wanted me to make money because he never had the opportunity to make money. AXELROD: So, he was involved in on the periphery of Chicago politics and thought you were too honest to be part of it? DART: Oh yes. He said, "Tommie, you'll never survive". And so, he did everything he could to keep me out of politics. And I think when I ran the first time it was his dream come true because I was running against -- I think it was 11 or 12 year incumbent African-American state legislator in the district. There was 80 some percent African-American, I was running head-to-head. So, I think it was his dream in the sense that I was going to get out of my system, I'd run, I'd lose, and -- AXELROD: Why did you want to run? DART: I always felt at a very young age that I want to be engaged in making change and making the difference. I mean, it sounds naïve and it sounds simplistic but it really was that. I didn't have a precise notion of how I want to do it but I often thought that government would be my best vehicle to make change in our communities. And so it's always what I want to do and even though my dad who I love terribly was always pushing me to go more into the laws, be lawyer to go on the business of law. It never interested me at all. Ep. 14 Tom Dart 1

2 And so when I left law and I went directly to the states attorneys' office because that was something that intrigued me. And I thought I could help the victims of crimes and alike. And then, I did and I enjoyed it. But it was very limiting. And so, when the legislative seat was somewhat available on I decided that was going to be my attempt to move to another level. AXELROD: And you got to the legislature. You know a legislature is an interesting place tightly managed. DART: Yes. And it's interesting because it goes through cycles. And I do think it's almost a recurring theme that everyone always looks back on the generation or the sessions before saying that was the good old days. But, when I first started in the early '90s, it was a different place where individual legislators had ability to introduce hundreds -- I did hundreds of bills. You can amend anybody's bill at any time. And there was a freedom there that frankly was somewhat how I believe it's supposed to be. And after two or three years down there -- nothing to do with me but the rules dramatically change similar I believe to what goes on Washington where it so top-heavy that individual members have very little voice, whatsoever. [00:05:09] AXELROD: Have a speaker in Illinois, Mike Madigan is been there since I think the Pleistocene age, maybe 40 years or so. Thirty to 40 years. DART: Yes, yes. AXELROD: Pretty autocratic in terms of the way he runs the institute. DART: Yes. It is now and I'm not saying that -- I got this unique window because my first two years, we were in majority and it literally was a free for all in the best sense of the word. I introduced a 100 some bills. And I don't know how many I pass. I pass a lot of them. I was literally on the floor all the time. Put my bills that were dead (inaudible) amendments on other peoples. But it was real freewheeling and really nice. And then about two years into it, the rules were changed. AXELROD: We are now by the way just in honor of having the sheriff here. We are -- we have sound effects. DART: Absolutely. AXELROD: So, we queued the siren. DART: This is just like (inaudible) talk show. AXELROD: Yes, yes. That's why you feel at home. I want you to feel at home. DART: Actually, unfortunately my office is in the jail and I hear sirens around the clock. So this is sort of natural to me now so where I don't have to look any more. It's like they're off, whatever. So, the legisla -- (inaudible) legislature dramatically change and for people who aren't unfamiliar with legislative processes they can't conceive of how something as simple as a rule change could be of anything have known. They think it's just OK. You got your parking place moved over on what's the big deal. The rules run the whole place. And if you change the rules so it can be more conducive to autocratic rule, it changes the entire body and the way it operates and that's what happened. Ep. 14 Tom Dart 2

3 It happened in the Senate mind you first. The Republicans took over the Senate, they change the rules then the House followed suit. And so, it went from a pretty freeform free-flowing place to where you literally were given three bills a year that you could sponsor which I would -- had my heated arguments with our own members about and fought the Democrats more than I fought the Republicans because it was like, guys we can't do this. This is -- we need a lot of legislation that lasts. And it got down to three bills a year and the bills all had to be approved by the leadership otherwise it weren't go in anywhere. So, it get -- it became clear to me after a few years I need to get out because I wasn't able to make any difference down there anymore. AXELROD: So, you run for state treasurer and you were burdened with bad consultants. DART: I had the most outrageous consultants. AXELROD: Me being the principal -- DART: Yes, it was you actually. AXELROD: Yes. DART: I probably was your last loss. AXELROD: I want to get this soft. My chest is been bugging me ever since. DART: Yes. AXELROD: But -- DART: No, you know, I often tell people that for me I had run my course in the House. I could of been elected and reelected down there but it won't serve any purpose. You know, what's a title if you can't do anything. And that's what it was. And when I was looking for another place where I can go and make a difference, there weren't a lot of opportunities out there for me. And I had made a lot of friends with a lot of people and some of the, you know, power brokers. You're going to call that way in the party. And so, the treasurer's race was open. The reason was open was because Judy Baar Topinka was -- AXELROD: She's the Republican incumbent -- DART: Yes. AXELROD: --very, very popular. DART: Yes. So, there weren't a lot of people queuing up to run against her. I thought there was limited number of things I could do better in that office for one term. It was really going to be something where I thought I can be positive, have an impact for one term. But after one term, there was no reason to be treasurer anymore. So, I looked at that as a place I can do something and then see if I want stay in government, get out. But I didn't want to just leave. I didn't want to just leave. I thought that I could be impactful but I needed the right place. AXELROD: So, you didn't win. Ep. 14 Tom Dart 3

4 DART: Correct. AXELROD: And you could've gone in -- gone your father's route and practiced law. DART: Yes. I'd love offers from law firms that were quite lucrative. AXELROD: And you turn them down? DART: I have no interest. I never did though. I mean, even when I was in law school and people were scrambling around to try to apply to this big firm or another, I never in (inaudible). I had no interest in that. AXELROD: And you went to work in the sheriff's office of Cook County. The sheriff was someone from your neighborhood. DART: Yes. Mike Sheahan was the sheriff at the time and he'd been sheriff for I think 12 years at that point. And I was there for about three years and it was in a somewhat really obtuse role because they -- Mike might have been in office for so long so people have their lanes and the like. And I went in as chief of staff but I really didn't fulfill that role. I was more on working on jail issues, in jail overcrowding issues. And so, it was OK for about a year or so. And then, it was clear that I just wasn't able to get things done that I wanted to. So, I was actually looking to leave and had been looking -- my wife is from Downstate, Illinois, we'd looked at even moving back where her families at. And then Mike literally (inaudible) decided not to run. And I thought it was an office where I could really get a lot of things done. I did nothing like what we've done. I don't think we can do all this stuff. But I thought I can make a difference there. [00:10:06] AXELROD: When you got there and start working in the sheriffs -- now you'd been a prosecutor so you are familiar with the criminal justice system. What did you learn when you actually started dealing day-to-day with the Cook County jail which is I think the largest in -- DART: In the country. AXELROD: -- in the country. DART: Yes. You know, I came across the obvious parts of, you know, that there are issues within the operations of jails and prisons throughout the country and that this one was no different. It had issues. And we went about just trying to really change attitudes and change, you know, some cultures and things like that. Mike Sheahan had started some of it. I mean, we had a DOS-based computer system run in the whole place. You can figure out who was in the place right along whether you're in therefore. And Mike keeps going about getting that change as well. But then, we went about sort of changing other aspects of it and as I was doing it, it became clear to me that the real scandal wasn't necessarily the day-to-day operations. That was stuff that needed to be fixed, tuned, cameras put everything like that. But it was just what jails were becoming which was just the repository for people that society didn't want to think about for lack of a better word. And so -- I mean, it was really a learning experience for me whether with it was that or whether it wasn't the eviction world where, you know, you hear about evictions and you think about (inaudible) some fortune, some didn't pay their mortgage. But, when I was physically going out which I still do not as much Ep. 14 Tom Dart 4

5 as I used to but when you physically go out and see the realities of this cycle this is not right. And this is not what our society and our cultures about and you're (inaudible) spot where you can change it. And so, there was a big -- as much as I've been around, it was in a limited capacity as chief of staff. You know, when I first got in there that my eyes were really opened where I found that the sheriff's office was really sort of at the hub of so many societal issues and ones that were not good either. And it was clear to me that it was a unique spot where you could make change and make it quickly. Which was also was interesting too David is that I often tell people that I have some enjoyable years down in the legislature, I met my wife down there. But, the -- a lot of what I took away from there was the things not to do. And I remember feeling just so not just emasculated when you can no longer can't introduce bills, you couldn't amend your own bills, all that stuff. But it was just the notion that anything -- to get anything done you need to have every star in a line. And it was so laborious and at the end of the day did you actually affect change. So, in our office it was adamant from the beginning that we're never going to have any element of that. We're going to have task forces, we're going to have committees. We're going to quickly identify problems, get solutions in place and then tweak them as we go along. But we're not going to sit on the sidelines and be what unfortunately see a lot of governmental officials do which is they over study things. A and B, they're too upset about upsetting other players in the system and don't want to embarrass them that they just pull back and they don't affect the change. And I made the decision right at the beginning that I don't know how long I have this career but while I'm there we're going to push things. Push them hard and going to upset people and that's going to be how life is. If people will work with us, great. But I'm not going to sit there saying this is going to embarrass somebody or this is going to upset somebody and so on. All these different issues it was clear things need to be done. And this office was unique in the sense you that could do them and do them immediately without having to get any type of authorization from some committee that may not even have an agenda. AXELROD: So, you came from the southwest side of Chicago. How different was the world that you entered when you entered that jail -- what did you see and what did you learn that was completely new to you because there's a sense that we live in two separate worlds? You know that there is this -- you know, there are those of us who were doing well. And then, there's this other world in the same community, in the same city, was it an eye-opening thing for you? DART: It was because -- you know, it was so eye-opening because are we a segregated city? Yes we are. And is that horrible? Yes, it's horrible. But, those are the things that people I think acknowledge and see and they know that. What they don't see though is that there really are two different worlds here. And it be so easy. I tell people probably it's how a lot of people sleep at night if they even care to think about these issues. It's easier to sit there and say jails, prisons are awful with these bad, horrible, evil people. And that's -- what I found when I walked in there -- and I sort of new little bits of it from my other dealings as a prosecutor and some the other work it in child welfare and things like that. [00:15:00] But -- that the jail was not filled with that. That, you know, 10, 20 percent of the jail were bad people, evil. How they got there? I don't know. But that the vast majority of people there are good people who have made mistakes, poor judgment but underlying it is their complete and total lack of opportunities to succeed. And it's both on the front end through either failed schools or neighbors -- their neighborhoods sort of Ep. 14 Tom Dart 5

6 imploded years ago, they'd have no jobs or whatsoever or that the moon were funneling them back out into the community, having had their stay in the jail for a period of time. We send them back over the felony conviction with no job opportunities and then we're all puzzled why that's going on. And once again, I think it's easy for people to sit and say well, they're just bad people. I sit and talk with these guys on a regular basis and so, do I get lie too? Of course, I can lie too. I can lie in my house a lot. But these -- AXELROD: Do you have five kids, right? DART: Oh, my God, yes. These series of lies that I deal with them is just incredible. But usually it's about Barbie dolls and who took the Barbie's head off. But the reality is, I found myself over and over again talking with detainees at the jail where I honestly thought to myself that if that was my life I'd be sitting right next to him. And I don't consider myself a bad person and also -- can consider myself inherently looking to do evil in there. No. These folks aren't doing it either. But what is happen is that I think the criminal justice system has been contorted. And so that the actual analysis of whether or not there's right and wrong going on here gets dispensed with. And it becomes a very mechanical process instead where lives don't matter, individual stories don't matter, that that's just your lot in life. You've grow up in a bad part of the area, there's no opportunities (inaudible) involved with dope dealings because that's how you can make money. And so you get caught up in the criminal justice system. That's just your lot in life. And it's wrong. And it's obviously wrong for that. But I found it's so historic when I was dealing with the mentally ill. Where is it like whole clearly here I would hope society would jump up and down and say we can't do this. I mean, these people are here only because of their illness. They are. And I think people fall back on the fact and say, well Tom, they aren't just been swept up. They are interacting with the criminal justice system and committing a criminal act. I even challenge him on that. I said, it's not a criminal act. I mean, if someone is acutely psychotic, having mental illness issues that you couldn't imagine, and they're going into a store and stealing a bar soap or something to eat for that matter. Is that Professor Moriarty that is this master criminal? God, no. This is manifestation to fact that they're not getting proper treatment. They end up in the criminal justice system. And we are gladly there to sweep them up into it. And I often tell people, go take it to the next level. Are we sitting there saying, well, at east we have him here now, now, we can fix him. Do you know any psychologist or psychiatrist in the right mind would say, you know, for your mental illness, here's what we're going to do, we're going to throw you in a four white cell with a complete stranger who has their own mental illness issues. We're going to leave you there for and indeterminate period of time. AXELROD: How was -- what is the gen -- length of stay? The jail is basically a holding facility while people are awaiting trial. But some of them are there for a long time, right? DART: Yes. And that is sort of like the dirty little secret too. I mean, if literally you don't care which is underlying in my theory on this. If you don't care, well then how long there in doesn't really matter. What they do when they get out, doesn't matter. All that stuff doesn't matter. And so, the -- AXELROD: You're warehousing them? Ep. 14 Tom Dart 6

7 DART: Yes, yes. And for -- and that's (inaudible). If the -- you would think, OK, we will have criminal justice system. A, to deal bad people and B, for a purpose. So there'd be a determinant period of time that it scientifically analyzes the time period with the following type of programs attached to, to fix people. None of there that goes on, none of it. It's warehousing people. They get -- some get held longer than others, some get released while others -- AXELROD: What's the longest period of time people spend in a jail? DART: Usually waiting on their trial, we've had him up to 10 years. AXELROD: My God, 10 years waiting for a trial. DART: Yes. Those usually are the outliers. But, I often tell people the scandalous ones are the ones in the middle, the ones that are there for like stealing a car. I mean, what you need? I mean, as a former oppressor, what do you need to prove your case? Nothing, you need the vehicle title and the police officer who pulled him over and said he was the one in the car. And yet, those people clog up the system. We have people charge with retail theft. That's their most serious offense. The average time they spend in the jail waiting for disposition is 120 days. Retail theft, I mean come on. They shouldn't be in there in the first place more often than not. AXELROD: Why are they there? DART: Because we don't care. I mean, there isn't any type of analysis done. I mean, there's like this film review which the screening process the prosecutors do. But that's for the most serious cases, you know, homicide, sexual assault, things like that. It's just easy to arrest people. And it's no, you know, is no cost to. Whenever the police department arrest a person it's not as if you're charge per arrest that you have this person (inaudible) so you're not making any type of economic analysis that is this worthy of bringing someone into the criminal justice system? It's just -- it's done naturally. And I saw play out when I was -- [00:20:00] AXELROD: When you're prosecutor, did you -- did you have that point of view when you are a young prosecutor? Were you guilty of sending people to the jail sort of thoughtlessly? DART: I probably was guilty of not giving it much thought, yes. I probably was. You know, I don't want to say I was young, I was new, I'm, you know, not culpable. No, and, you know, your thought is a prosecutor there to prosecute bad people. So the police department arrest this guy, you got the case, you know, let's move on. Did we have -- did I have predict cases where I said, you know, what's this case doing here, let's -- this case is probation or let's get this thing out of here. Yes. But, did I think about the way I probably should have? Probably not. I mean, I don't think it was something that was put into the DNA or prosecutors per say. You know, you've given your cases are presented to you and you move on them. AXELROD: You're trying to clear your bucket? DART: Yes, yes. I mean, I just -- and I guess when I looked at the system, you know, try to figure out, you know, where the issues are, the problems are, and where your pathway out of it is, I think one of the underlying promises, you're in the silos by nature You know, as a prosecutor. You're here to prosecute Ep. 14 Tom Dart 7

8 the cases given to you. As a public defender, you're trying to get your client the best deal. As a judge, you're supposed be moving cases. But, no one's overseeing the -- I guess bigger issue of -- is this justice? Is this person receiving justice? And that's where I think the systems not necessarily set up to do that. AXELROD: You've mentioned the mentally ill. You, I think were quoted once you're saying you're running the world's largest mental institution. What percentage of the people who come to the jail or people who are clinically dealing with mental illness? DART: The people that come to the jail -- AXELROD: Or not to dealing with them. DART: Yes. People come to the jail who have a diagnosed mental illness is probably close to 50 percent. The ones actually who sit in my custody is closer about 35 percent. Meaning that 15 percent of them are so -- are released on something so they don't come into my custody. They're dropped off for bond hearings. But I still see them. But, David, one of the points I've tried to make to people, if you think about it, government what's the most oppressive significant thing a government can do to its people. I'd say it's incarcerated them. Some people might say tax them. But I'd say incarcerated them. And to do that, then you would suggest that for a government to do that, this is got to be something they'll so descriptively watched and monitored, engaged. No. I mean, start with the fact that up until, you know, five, six years ago, we have a DOS-based computer system that manage the jail. And tell me who's in the jail, who split -- how long (inaudible) stuff? Is that indicative of the system that really cares? Well, no of course not. Inline with that, the mentally ill were being dumped off and droves. All we were doing which is processing them in, take them up to a bond hearing, and the judge released them. They released them, they released them or put in my custody. They put them in my custody if they're mental ill or not. Really didn't matter. I'm just suppose to hold people and then I get an order to release them. Well, I knew that was wrong from the beginning. So, I started -- I hired mental health professionals at the entry point, right when their dumped off in the morning, 300 a day. They're dumped off at the jail, they're for bond hearings, to interview these folks. Why they're there? What the issues are? And the amount of people with serious mental health issues, no one was watching it, no one was engage in it because it didn't fit into the nice neat little formula. Why didn't anybody care? I mean, you know, I'm not supposed to care, no one supposed to care. And so, the number was never been fully reported. The only number you've ever hear is how many are in your custody? Well, that you can get. In some jurisdiction you can't get back because they don't even watch very carefully. But here, you already even monitoring how many were coming into your system even if it was for six hours and be thrown back -- right back to the street. Still, mentally ill. Still, no support system and off they go until they get arrested again which is usually a couple days later and this time, they might be held though. AXELROD: Now, you've done something unusual that made national news. You -- tell me about your warden. You know, the image of a warden of a jail or a prison was sort of the kind of guy you saw on "Cool Hand Luke" Ep. 14 Tom Dart 8

9 DART: So, the sheriffs are like that? So when I go to like sheriffs' meeting, I do not fit in. When I first showed up there I think they thought I work at the hotel at the first meeting with them. And there was like, oh no, he's the new guy from Cook County. I was like, oh well, whatever but that -- AXELROD: But your warden doesn't fit in either. DART: No. She -- boy, she does not. She's in her 30s, late 30s. She's a -- AXELROD: Tell us her name. [00:25:01] DART: Nneka Jones, Dr. Nneka Jones. Nneka -- she's an amazing person. She's a psychologist, had worked in Cermak Hospital which deals with the medical needs of the detainees and that's where I met her. You know, I was just blown away by both her compassion on this issue but also her grasping of it. You know, I mean, I think a lot of folks thought, you know, here I go -- he's often one of the (inaudible) again, you know, getting a doctor to run the place. No, no, she gets it and she understands that there's people who manipulate systems, people who might not be mentally ill. Who are, you know, trying to manipulate systems, put it that way. And -- so, she gets it on all levels. She understands the jail world but she also clearly understands this crisis that we're in now. Where we have -- I often tell people, you know, what, we don't let our kids get away with saying, well I didn't mean it. How can we allow adults do that when -- you have all these mentally ill people dumped into the system who really are not committing crimes of anything other than try to survive on the street. How can we as a society not hold ourselves culpable and say, listen, we are doing this, OK. No different than in time with Dickens when they did their horrible things to people who are mentally ill or poor and things like that. We're doing the same thing and we're going to be judge the same way a 100 years from now. So, we need to stop right now, bring in the right type of mindset. And some like her provides that for me. The other folks I'd run into jail were really good. The woman before her is an attorney who wasn't from the jail world. The person before that was a former prosecutor who wasn't from the jail world. So I had been doing different iterations of the non-traditional route of running a jail. But this, this is the -- I don't want to say the final iteration but this is a mental health professional we believe the first time ever running any jail (inaudible) and the largest in the country and she's doing a phenomenal job. And what I told her from the beginning this is this, listen, I will support you on anything here. But she knew that I already had my plan in place when she came in. I've been doing it for a while which was we're going to treat these people the way they should be, with dignity and as patients, not as criminals. And so we put a continuum of care together. From the time they hit our door, we analyze why they're there, we plead with the judges to get them into diversions and not sit in the jail. We get programs form when they're in the jail. Then I discharge plan them, I have a separate place where I house them. I now have a mobile unit where we go to the houses. And actually one of the city clinics that was closed in three years ago, whatever, we're reopening at when -- in February. AXELROD: These are mental health clinics? DART: No, health clinics. We're reopening it. One of the -- AXELROD: Because there were a dozen of them that got cut in half. DART: Just six. Ep. 14 Tom Dart 9

10 AXELROD: Yes. DART: And one of them -- I used to know where there all are up but one of them was on the west side and we're reopening it and I'm operating it. And so we're going to have our own clinics because what we've been doing was once again was never been done before and this is around the country, this is isn't UniCare. I mean, this issue is a national issue. Absolutely it's national, and the disregard for people is national. It's going on everywhere, it's not unique here. But we release people to communities where we now (inaudible) it. So, we know where people with mental illness, where they're going back and we're trying to match them to services. When I discharge plan them, I literally give the maps of where all their providers are in the community, where they can get their prescriptions filled and all -- AXELROD: And are people making use of this? DART: They are, they are. And it's been fascinating. There's guys I -- I'm not going to lie to you, there's guys that are serious and mentally ill who have nothing to do with us. The majority do and I try not to live by anecdote. I never have, never will. But there's been some -- there's have been somewhat telling to me, usually when I going to like a living unit of not mentally ill. They're usually talking to me about their case. And apparently none of them have done it because we're all innocent from what they've told me. And I think they want -- oh, that's their -- the whole discussion point. When I go to the living units for the mentally ill, they're knocking each other over to tell me they absolutely did it. And I keep telling them, listen, I don't need to hear about that, OK. That's for you and your lawyer to dis -- to talk about. I don't need to hear about that. I just want to know, you know, how's it going here, what can we do? To a person they want to tell me they did it and all they're looking for is housing, they want help. And so when we are providing this one, they -- I can't tell you how many grown men have come up to me, hugged me crying saying, it's the first time anybody ever cared. It's the first time they have a pat because their needs are pretty straightforward. And we have like a family support group we started two years ago that's been really wild where we're getting their families reengaged with people that are sort of -- their family ties are broken. And usually the detainees are the first to admit they caused all of the problems themselves. So we're bringing them back together and it's not just this rosy picture, it's a little torturous. But we're doing that with this notion that we're going to have them stabilize with the community. We're staying engaged with them so that we're keeping them on their meds, remind them of the court dates if they still have court dates. But keeping them in housing and on their meds is so huge. And that we had a great deal of lack with that so far. The housing has been more of a challenge. I'm running out on money to find them places to live when they don't know where to go when they leave. I usually house about 120 people, 130 people a day that don't have anywhere to live, that I find houses -- housing for them. And I'm trying to get more money but it's been tricky. Some of the other players don't think it's their job. [00:30:01] But we put together the systemic approach to them. And -- because it's only been going two years now or so, we don't all have the states but I have an individual from the University of Chicago who heard about I was doing -- Ep. 14 Tom Dart 10

11 AXELROD: Fine institution. DART: Fine, fine institution absolutely. AXELROD: This is private placement. DART: Yes, it is, but, you know, this is fascinating. He approached me, knew what we're doing, and he went it on his own costing me zero to get involved on the ground floor with the analytics (inaudible) which was so amazing because we wanted to do that. Because we didn't want to have another program where no one studies to see if it's effective and here we had it done for free. And so he's been studying it since we started and the early returns are startling. And they sort of like -- AXELROD: Startling in a good way. DART: In a good way. And I want to say they were expected because what would you expect if you went from literally dumping people in the streets at all hours of the night who are mentally ill, at all times of the year and the winters on, to a place where you're hold their hand, you're getting them ready to hit the streets. You have discharge plans for them and some cases you just drive them to their house. You're finding house and of course you're going to have more success. Well, we're seeing that. And our goal is by doing that we're going to be able to package that. And so, we're putting them together and sending around the country with other jurisdictions to get them to buy into it because other jurisdictions have been facing the same problems and they've been looking for answers. And I'm not saying that I came up with the answer. I think having Dr. Jones in there now is. I don't want to see the final piece of it. I had the plan in place and was being executed. Now, having someone to head the jail who was actually a psychologist, I think takes it even further. But L.A. and New York have been having horrible problems with these issues and we've been working with them a lot on this. And there seems to be this national movement now, at least with the mentally ill to change the way we're operating here. AXELROD: What is the demographic of your -- DART: It's horrible. AXELROD: -- population? DART: It's horrible. And it doesn't change either. It's almost consistent -- AXELROD: If I'm a black person versus a white person in the city of Chicago, how are my percentage chances of being in the jail? DART: Disproportionate. You are disproportionately represented in the jail then. It's almost consistently 75 percent, 78 percent African-American, about 15 percent Latino and maybe 10 percent white. And it's almost consistently been that way for, you know, decades. AXELROD: What does that tell you? DART: It tells me a lot of things. I mean, the obvious which is that the criminal justice system is disproportionately impacting the African-American community. That's -- I mean, you don't have to be liberal or a conservative to suggest that, that's just the truth. But then, the other part of it too, I would suggest if you're a thoughtful person it would lead you to say, Ep. 14 Tom Dart 11

12 OK, what does that lead us to believe about community support systems and the like? And have we done the analysis to see what is it they are leading to these disproportionate numbers. And that's what I found to be so fascinating. When you look at this, you almost find yourself saying, wow, what do you expect to occur when -- so you have a community that has loads and loads of issues, OK. No jobs, the housing stock is a wreck, foreclosures everywhere. Schools are modest at best. So, you have that as starters. Now, a person leaves and gets a felony conviction. Where are they going back to? Well, they're not heading off to MIT when they leave. They're heading back to the community they left from. That community didn't have much to start with. And what -- have we, we train them while there with us, well, no. A jail does not have that luxury. I'm trying to come up with -- also it's a really crazy programming for the place but jails get confused with prisons. Prisons the warden knows the minute when the guys getting out. Jail is people come and go all the time, their cases get dismissed, they plea out, whatever it is. Eighty -- some percent of the people in a jail end up going directly from the jail to the community. But yes, people never appreciate that fact. I mean, so that's where the program and the thoughtfulness needs to be and it's never been that way. It's always been in the prisons. Yet, we're the biggest funnel back to the community. So, you have this person that's now involved in the criminal justice system, you're funneling them back to the five zip codes or disproportionately represented throughout the city of Chicago. It's like five zip codes, get the majority people coming back to their communities. The communities don't have any infrastructure to take these people back. And no one sitting there holding their hands saying, hey, we're going to give you this new career path and the rest of it. So, course they go back to community. And of course -- I had the most fascinating conversation with a young detainee one day that blew me away in its clarity. And when -- I was talking to my -- I was more or less asking him about, how was your experience at the jail? You know, do we -- you know, do we treat you appropriately? And then I said, do you want (inaudible), No, and you guys treated me fine, and everything was great. It's got so much better because I don't want to come back here. And I just asked him and -- it wasn't in some type of snarky way. It was just, what can you tell me that would lead me to believe you're not coming back? And he just paused for second. Remember -- and the pause was what got me. He thought for about 10 seconds and then looked at me and said, "You know, Tom, I'm probably coming back". It was completer resignation. And I said, why, and he said, Tom, you know, I didn't have a lot of opportunities before. And now, I got a felony conviction, I can't go back. And he goes, I got two kids, I got to pay for them and I got to feed myself because I can always get a job dealing dope. That's always there and I can make money doing that. So I'd probably do that and I probably get caught again. Now remember afterwards we didn't -- you know, I said, well, good luck and I hope you don't come back here. And I remember thinking to myself, everything he said was logical. There wasn't anything in there to say, he's evil, he was going to hurt people, he wants to do bad things. He didn't want to go back and get involved with the criminal justice system. But he did the analysis that what are his real options. You know, where are those real ones. I remember, there was no preachiness and my point was well, knowing you, you're going to re-examine your life here sir. He was like, no, I'd probably do the same thing. Ep. 14 Tom Dart 12

13 And so, when you have that as the recurring pattern here. I think it's incumbent upon us to put together the strategies for success, that aren't going to be successful a 100 percent at the time but at lease it's a strategy. AXELROD: You also -- in addition to running a jail, you run a police force that patrols parts of Cook County. DART: Unfortunately pretty much everywhere now. AXELROD: This is -- we're living in a time where the relationship between police and community has really come to the (inaudible). I -- you know, I was writing 40 years ago about police community relations acts of excessive force and how they were dealt with in and so on. And we're still living with that today. And now with the video people are -- now we had a video that surfaced in Chicago recently, of a young man who apparently was on PCP but acting erratically. Shot 16 times by a police officer since been indicted for murder. What did you -- you must have seen that tape. What was your thought as someone who runs a police force when you saw that tape? And how is that relate to your conversations with people in the jail? DART: You know, I think I share feelings so many of it. When I saw the tape I was horrified by it. I mean, you hear about, you know, shootings, you see things in movies. But when you see a tape like that, it just horrified you because you can't -- A, this young man was killed, you know, he was, you know, shot and just charge -- the officer charged of murder now. Shot and killed. The way it was done is just something that is just so mine boggling. It's startling, it's horrific. How that's going to impact itself in the jail, in the communities, obviously nothing good. And will it further people's distrust of law and prison. God, yes, absolutely it will. And it's the very thing that -- there is no magic fairy dust that will make, you know, communities, you know, all of a sudden, you know, rise up and say, you know, what, we're going to tell everything we know about this criminal and that criminal. That's a complicated issue. But when you have a, a lack of trust, it just -- it isn't hard to then explain. You know, why -- the code is silent, you know, in communities. And why people don't come forward and things like that. It just -- it really just makes what is already difficult, inherently difficult, also more difficult. And it's been mentioned before, yes. Are there like objective changes that occurred in gang structures. They have. I mean, I -- they become more fractionalized on the street, absolutely. I see it even more so in the jail that the factions on the street which are fractionalized are even more fractionalized in the jail where they have new gang variations in the jail. And does that create all sorts of issues and problem? Oh, God, yes, it does. So that objectively has going on. But as far as going after the issues regards to the shootings and the like and the gangs in the neighborhood, one of the most important prongs of trying to deal with those issue is the level of trust. And the people realize that they are in a difficult situation and law enforcement is there to help you. That there -- we're no different than anybody else. That we have bad apples, we had bad apples. But that across the board that we're all pulling in the same direction. And when you have a video -- AXELROD: Do you think that's the pervasive sense in the community today? DART: No, I don't. I mean, I talked to too many people who just are -- just so distrustful. And I wish I had the magic fairy dust to say, OK this will make it all go away. There's just -- there's multiple things that lead people to feel that way. And this video will do nothing but further that feeling that there's a lack of Ep. 14 Tom Dart 13

14 trust, that they can't trust people. [00:40:03] AXELROD: The mayor asked the police superintendent to resign as a result of it. Was that the right thing to do? DART: I think, you know, that, at this point in time that the mayor would be in the best position to see that. But given all that's going on that there's probably a need for different direction so that the public will -- you know, so much is like some -- AXELROD: You live in a community -- you probably have the largest number of police officers in anywhere in the city Chicago, in the Mount Greenwood, the community -- DART: Yes. AXELROD: -- which you live. How do police officers process this? And you said you talk about the code of silence among gangs. Is there a code of silence among police officers as well about these kinds of things? Is there a sense that, we're out there risking our lives and, you know, we're going to stand with each other? DART: There's definitely -- I mean, from the police mentality, they rightfully feel that they have a horrifically dangerous job, and it is. I mean, my God, the situations that they're going to. They are -- I think what occurs then is that a lot of the people within departments then start feeling like it's a little bit like us against them. Where the people don't -- you know, people don't understand us, they don't understand how difficult it is, and they make snap decisions. And so, I think then people, you know, circle the wagons to sort of, you know -- I'm not saying in a criminal way to protect their own that type of thing but they feel people don't understand. They don't understand the difficulties, they don't understand the issues. They're making these judgments that aren't completely based on all the realities of the street. What I think, it's lost in the shuffle. And when the people have those discussions are, that on the other side of it, those are very real feelings too. That in a community that feels overwhelmed with crime, they need to also feel that, yes, it is a very difficult job you have. But there's some level of empathy here where you're understanding that, you know, things aren't as neat as we all might want them to be. And so, I think that's where -- yes, I sense from talking to friends of mine in the police departments that they feel that a lot of folks just don't understand how difficult their jobs are. And then, they sort of -- I don't think, not in a bad way close ranks but then they become more insular. You know, they don't want to -- AXELROD: But on the other side of the equation you've got -- you said, as you mentioned, jail its 90 percent minority. You know, there's a phrase in the community here about, you know, being arrested for driving while being black. And there is this pervasive sense that you have a much greater chance of being swept up into the criminal justice system even if you're guilty of nothing, just by dint of being a minority. Are those fair feelings? Are those -- is that -- I mean that the -- DART: The numbers don't lie. I mean, the numbers don't lie that it is disproportionally impacting people of color in the jail setting. And I -- you know, I've often over the years because of my background as being a prosecutor, you know, like I've always tried not to over generalize but the reality of it is, is that the criminal justice system, if not being monitored judiciously, well, in a very benign way sweep up all sorts of people. And there needs to be a much more thoughtful approach to who it is that we're incarcerating. And I can just -- I can tell you I -- from my experience in the jail, and I -- yes, I talked to detainees but I didn't run their backgrounds too so, I'm not just taking everyone's word for granted on the Ep. 14 Tom Dart 14

15 background. And as a former prosecutor I can sit there and tell you, I have no idea why these people are in the jails. And so, are people getting swept up who shouldn't be in jail, absolutely. AXELROD: And some of them are there just because they can't afford a bond, right? DART: Please, absolutely. I mean, the amount of people that are sitting there because they're poor is staggering, it's outrageous, it's a stain on everybody in our community. That we're a lot -- we are. We just -- you're poor, you're going to sit in the jail. If you have money you get out. That's not what the criminal justice system is supposed to be about. You have that. But then as it seem with these staggering numbers that you have in there as well. There are too many people that are being put into the jail by default. That, you know, they're at the wrong place, the wrong time and they're being swept up. And it doesn't have to be like that. A much more thoughtful process can and needs to be put in place so that jails and prisons are for violent people. And that's it. And that -- if there's an occasional outlier that I'm unaware of then I suppose you can -- we can talk about that. But outside of that there's no thoughtful reason why so many of these people are in the jails and in the prisons as well. There isn't. And that's what I found to be so startling when we've been analyzing the populations there. It's just the mentally ill that's just so embarrassingly obviously. And those numbers are staggering. But then when you talk about the poor -- [00:45:08] AXELROD: This young man Laquan Robinson who was shot clearly may have fit into that category. Certainly he was on drugs if the autopsy is right but was acting erratically and that's why he was being followed by police. Is he emblematic or the kind of person that you find in the jail? DART: Yes, yes. I mean, we find people in the jail -- once again, to show you the thoughtlessness and carelessness of the criminal justice system. Why wouldn't anybody in the right mind say, you know, hey, one of the many things that we are going to be pouring through on a daily, weekly, monthly basis, take your pick, is what is the connection between our criminal justice system are our child welfare system? When I tried to do that in Springfield, you would've thought I was trying to change or form a government to communism. And there was like, oh, we can't do that. I was like, why is that? Well, you know, we all knew the answer. No one want to find the connection. But you have these broken systems that people don't buy and want to care about because it doesn't impact them. This is just that other world that we don't want talk about and we don't want to see. Laquan was one of them. He was in our broken child welfare system too. And then, he graduated beyond that, had apparently some interactions with the juvenile justice system as well. I believe nothing of significance but would he be someone to clearly would fit that we should be intervening a lot earlier with in both our child welfare system or juvenile justice? Oh God, yes. And it's not rocket science to do it. And yet, when you have this -- I mean, there's just a report out today about our child welfare system. I've been talking about it for decades. It was my big issue down in Springfield but it got a little better. But it's back there again, why -- again, do we have a system like that? That is -- the states come in and take a child away from (inaudible) because bad things were done to that child. Where are there parent now? Would any parent in the right mind to what our system does to them? Oh God, no. I mean, to start with the fact -- I picked the one that so obvious. When the kids take off from the system, we weren't even tracking that. I mean, what parent would not be indicted if their kid took off and you Ep. 14 Tom Dart 15