Susanne Goldfarb: Oral History Transcript

Transcription

1 Name: Susanne Hafner Goldfarb ( ) Birth Place: Vienna, Austria Arrived in Wisconsin: 1969, Madison Project Name: Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Susanne Goldfarb Biography: Susanne Hafner Goldfarb was born in Vienna, Austria, on February 17, She was the only child of a middle-class Jewish family. Nazi Germany annexed Austria in March Rising anti-semitism and the threat of war prompted her family to flee their homeland in early Six-year-old Susanne and her family left Europe on a luxury liner bound for Shanghai, China. They found refuge with more than 20,000 other European Jewish exiles in the Japanese-occupied sector of that city. The refugees were able to create a multifaceted Jewish community in Shanghai. It included commercial, religious, cultural, and educational institutions. Susanne attended synagogue, studied in Jewish schools, and belonged to a Zionist social club. The Hafners eked out a living by delivering bread in their neighborhood, the Hongkew district. In May 1943, Japanese authorities introduced anti-semitic measures. The Hongkew district turned into a Jewish ghetto and all Shanghai Jews were restricted to this area. As World War II unfolded, Shanghai came under increased assault from U.S. warplanes. Susanne's family worked as air raid wardens and suffered the terror of heavy bombing attacks. In August 1945, the U.S. liberated the Hongkew Ghetto. Soon after, China descended into civil war. In 1949 the Chinese Communists came to power. The Hafners, fearing persecution under the communist regime, immigrated to Israel in January In 1953, the Hafners immigrated to New York City. They lived in an insulated community of Jewish refugees until In New York Susanne met Dr. Stanley Goldfarb, whom she married in The Goldfarbs moved to Madison, Wisconsin, in Susanne worked with the University of Wisconsin's Office of Foreign Students and Faculty until her death in June Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 1 of 108

2 Audio Summary: Below are the highlights of each tape. This is not a complete list of all topics discussed. Tape 1, Side 1 Susanne's family and childhood in Vienna German Anschluss, March 1938 Decision to go to China The voyage to Shanghai Tape 1, Side 2 The Shanghai Jewish community Difficult living conditions Relations with Japanese occupiers School life Tape 2, Side 1 Synagogues in Shanghai Secular education A typical morning routine Involvement in Betar (Zionist youth group) Tape 2, Side 2 Refugee life in Shanghai Poverty, crime, and black market activities Emotional life as a child living through these conditions Japanese authorities and Nazi propaganda Tape 3, Side 1 Her family in Austria, memories of Vienna Arriving in Shanghai Establishment of the Shanghai Ghetto, 1943 Typical day in the Shanghai Ghetto Tape 3, Side 2 Life under Allied bombings, 1945 The end of the war Arrival of U.S. troops, August 1945 Postwar conditions Tape 4, Side 1 Her last years in China Voyage to Israel, Jan-Feb 1949 Life in the new state of Israel Decision to leave Israel for the U.S. Tape 4, Side 2 Immigrating to New York, 1953 Side trip to Vienna Life in New York and marriage Moving to Wisconsin, 1969, working with foreign students in Madison Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 2 of 108

3 Tape 5, Side 1 Reflections on immigrating to the U.S. Relations among American Jews The role of religion in her life in 1980 Reading habits and social life in Madison Tape 5, Side 2 Public attitudes toward the Holocaust American politics and government Anti-Semitism in Wisconsin and the U.S. Her sense of ethnic and national identity About the Interview Process: The recordings were made during two sessions on February 7 and October 8, The first conversation was held in Susanne s Madison home, where she was visibly shaken by the memories evoked in telling her story. The second took place at the Wisconsin Historical Society. The researcher noted Susanne s conscious effort to make the second session less emotional than the first. Susanne describes her Holocaust experience through a child s eyes. She has clear memories of Jewish life as a child in Vienna and the anti-semitism that followed the German Anschluss in March Susanne s interview is valuable because it reveals the fate of thousands of European Jews who fled to China in the face of Nazi persecution. Audio and Transcript Details: Interview Dates Feb 7, 1980; Oct 8, 1980 Interview Location Goldfarb home and, Madison, Wisconsin Interviewer Archivist Jean Loeb Lettofsky Original Sound Recording Format 5 qty. 60-minute audio cassette tapes Length of Interviews 2 interviews, total approximately 5 hours Transcript Length 108 pages Rights and Permissions Any document may be printed or downloaded to a computer or portable device at no cost for nonprofit educational use by teachers, students and researchers. Nothing may be reproduced in any format for commercial purposes without prior permission. Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 3 of 108

4 Pictures: WHI Image ID WHI Image ID WHI Image ID WHI Image ID WHI Image ID WHI Image ID WHI Image ID WHI Image ID WHI Image ID Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 4 of 108

5 Transcript The following transcript is from the collections of the Archives. It is an unedited, firsthand account of the Nazi persecution of the Jews before and during World War II. Portions of this interview may not be suitable for younger or more sensitive audiences. It is unlawful to republish this text without written permission from the, except for nonprofit educational use. Key JL SG Jean Loeb Lettofsky, archivist Susanne Goldfarb, Holocaust survivor TAPE 1, SIDE 1 Okay Susanne would you tell me something about your family background, your date and place of birth, and the names of your parents and grandparents and if possible their dates and places of birth? Well, I was an only child in a middle-class family in Vienna, Austria, and both my parents and grandparents came from Poland. I only knew my maternal grandparents. We lived very close to them in adjoining apartments in Vienna. Their names were Meisel 1 and I practically grew up with them, second parents, up until the age of five. That's when we left Vienna. Do you know any dates, birthdates? I think my grandmother was born in 1879, or at least that's what they thought she was born in. I don't know about my grandfather, no. And for your parents? My father was born in 1891 and my mother Do you have any special recollections of your grandparents, any special things that might have happened with them, could you tell me a little? Close relationship, close relationship. My close relationship with my grandparents and my parents' close relation. It was very close, my family. We lived next door to each other. Actually, all my recollections 1 Before the war, the family name was Meiseles. Mrs. Goldfarb refers to all members of the family by the shortened form, Meisel, which some adopted after the war. Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 5 of 108

6 start at the age of three or four, and that's when Hitler was in Austria already, so I just don't remember all the I remember them, but I don't remember that much interaction with them in Vienna. Later on my grandmother came to Shanghai alone and that's where I was old already and where the interaction was, yeah. Is there anything special that you can remember, any nice things that might have happened with your father and mother? What type of people they were? They were very hard working and very devoted, very family-loving and very giving. But again, my earliest recollections all were in Hitler's time. The anxieties. It seems very difficult to remember anything playful in Vienna. There were more the traumatic things that I remember. Although I'm sure there were other things, it's hard to think of them now. Because my first recollections were when I was four, three or four. They were very loving and very good and very wonderful. They are the true heroes of all of this. Would you care to tell me why? Well, because when I was three or four, and when we gave up, when we left Vienna and went to another place, I wasn't giving up anything personally. There were no deprivations as far as I was concerned. But they are the ones who for them it was the second time that they were leaving things behind and my mother left her parents behind. And they were older of course, and they knew what they were losing. What were your father's and mother's occupations? My father was a baker, my mother was a housewife in Vienna. Although my mother always told me that when she was single, she used to work for my uncle in his business. Her hard work started in Shanghai when she and my father really worked hard, very, very hard. They were the most hard-working people just to put food on the table. It's difficult for me to talk about all this. You can talk further about it later if you like. You mentioned that the family came from Poland. Do you have any other memories of your father's or mother's side of the family? Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 6 of 108

7 No. No, only stories that I heard afterwards which were funny stories about the little shtetls and things like that. And the fact that my father's mother died on Yom Kippur, when there was a false alarm of a fire and she was trampled to death because were running from the synagogue. Everybody thought it was a fire in their house [inaudible]. But these are just stories, I don't have any recollections. I certainly don't know anything about this, just talk. So, in Vienna now were there any other family members in the nearby areas? Yes. One of my mother's brother's family. Just cousins. Somebody I just remember by name, but nobody and one sister in Vienna. They all came with us. The two brothers and one sister came with us to Shanghai. Did you interact with them at all in Vienna, have a close relationship? Oh yes, yes. But again, I was five at the time I left, so whatever interaction I had was as a child. Do you have any family members or close friends in the United States before the war? No, not that I know of. Well, I think there was but we didn't know where they were and we didn't know whether they came before the war or after or during the war. But not that we knew of anyway. We were told later on that somebody from the family lived on the Lower East Side but we could never trace them down. By the time we came here they were gone, and nobody could tell us where they were. Could you describe your home and your immediate community surroundings in Vienna? We lived in an apartment and I remember the street. I even went back to see it in My memories I have to say this again and again my memories were of when Nazis were. I don't remember anything that much before that. I remember hearing things being said behind closed doors and standing at the window and looking out and seeing if the neighbors were taken away and things like that. But besides those rather negative memories, is there anything about the physical surroundings that sticks in your mind? Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 7 of 108

8 Oh, I remember the place well. I do remember the apartment, I remember the street, I remember the kindergarten that I visited I didn't go to kindergarten at that time yet. It was a very middle-class Jewish neighborhood, very Jewish neighborhood and very middle-class. I don't remember all that much. Do you remember anything about the city of Vienna itself although as you say you left when you were quite young and you have some rather negative memories, the romantic image of the city is quite well known. Do you have any memories like that? No, no. No, I think I was too young for any romantic memories of Vienna, no. I think they were rather negative now that I speak it, most of the things. I just don't remember anything no, I have no romantic memories. Okay let s change the subject a bit, and could you tell me bout your family's religious observances, synagogue attendance, and home traditions, just generally? They were very traditional. My grandmother wore a shaytl 2 and my grandfather was religious. We always kept a kosher home. And again my mother, all the way in Shanghai, kept a kosher home, although the meat was three times as expensive, not always available, but we always kept a kosher home. My mother never ate anything non-kosher till the day she died. I mean, even in the hospital here, they always knew whenever my mother came in "It's the lady who eats kosher food." Well, whatever much they could help her with kosher. And I remember Rosh Hashanah and I remember Yom Kippur. I remember there was a very traditional home, very traditional. The yahrzeit, 3 candles, I remember Shabbes 4 candles. So your mother set the standard for the observance? Yeah, my grandmother and my mother. Were any of the members of the extended family non-religious? 2 Yiddish for the wig worn by Orthodox women after marriage. 3 Anniversary of the death of a family member, on which prayers are offered. 4 Sabbath. Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 8 of 108

9 Yeah, yeah. To what extent? I think because my mother lived with my grandmother, or rather that our apartment was next door, and my uncle lived away and he was in another apartment and they were not religious. They were Jewish, but they were not religious in the same way, no. No traditions at all? Oh yeah, yeah, going to synagogue. But I don't think he thought much of the traditions. I'm not sure. But it didn't seem as religious to me. Again, I think from the child s vantage point you do seem to remember something about the changing social and political scene and the rise of anti-semitism, could you talk about that, in Austria, in Vienna? It's painful because when I think of it, why do I remember all these things? Because they ve affected me. I get mad because I was personally afraid because I didn't know what to be afraid of but the general atmosphere was one of fear and anxiety. Did any conversations come up with your little friends, among the children, did they deal with it in any way as a group? Well I had a neighbor who once said, "Your mother's a [inaudible]. But these things didn't affect me in that sense because I didn't know what all that meant. I think I was just affected by the fear, by the just feeling that danger was imminent. Do you remember the Anschluss, on March 13, 1938? Yes. I remember the stories that were told us not told us but that when the Anschluss in the evenings. Right away, the neighbor came. They wanted our apartment. My mother's best friend wanted the apartment. Yes, sure I remember the Anschluss things that were happening out in the streets and everything was nothing was kept secret. I mean, I was a child, but I was exposed to everything. Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 9 of 108

10 What happened on the streets? They started marching, the Austrians were very pro-hitler. Anybody says they weren't is a lie. And they immediately were pro-hitler. I don't think I'm sure there were those who weren't, but and they were burning synagogues. It didn't affect me personally in the sense because I didn't know what all this meant. But it affected me obviously. Otherwise, why would I be crying like this? Do you remember when your parents now, were first fearful of a life-threatening situation and made the decision to leave? Yes, I remember. I remember, I remember all the things that went on. All the conversations that went on and the decisions and what to do and where to hide and when to go and should we take the grandparents, shouldn t we take the grandparents. And I think I was only involved in it in the sense that I heard it and I Were you consulted at all? No. I mean, I remember. I remember taking leave of my grandparents. They moved into my uncle's house. He had an apartment house and we thought, "Well..." They were left money and the Juedische Kultusgemeinde 5 was there and they would take care of them and nothing would happen to them. Whoever thought things like that would happen. And I remember walking down the spiral staircase in the building and, in fact, one of my aunts, lives there now and whenever I go there now I remember exactly my grandparents standing at the top of the staircase, and I'm walking down. And that was the last time you saw them? My grandfather. [He later died in Buchenwald.] So you took leave of the grandparents, and what were the circumstances surrounding the final departure from Vienna? 5 Yiddish? for Jewish religious community, in the sense of an organizing body for the population. Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 10 of 108

11 Very, very tense, because my uncle had already left over the border to Italy because he would have been arrested. He had been doing business with Germans and that's all you needed was to do business with Germans. My father had been working in a Jewish bakery so things weren't that bad. He was out of a job but that was not but my uncle was doing business, and so that's all you needed is to have friends who were Christians who automatically became your enemy. So he had to leave on November 10. He went across the border. We had one aunt living in Milan, and my aunt and her son, my cousin, and we all I don't remember how we came to Shanghai. I mean I don't remember why we chose Shanghai except that we weren't permitted to go to South America. We didn't have anybody in the States. Shanghai was the only place that sold tickets. If you had money you could buy them, and so we did it. I think my mother never forgave herself. She said it, and she never did forgive herself that she didn't take my grandparents along at that time. She always used to say that when she came on the ship and she saw Mrs. so and so who had been our neighbor and her parents were along. And I frankly at this point don't know the reasoning except that they probably didn't think that anything would happen and another thing, which of course I didn't mention, was that we were going into a war zone. We were going into Shanghai that was a war zone. It was the Sino-Japanese war. And so I guess the family decided why take old people along to a place we would probably stay there a couple of months and come back. So you knew that you were going into a war zone? Yes. Was there other things that you knew about Shanghai, the family? No, I don't think so. I don't think they knew anything, no. Who knew much, anyhow? I mean, it was the Orient, the mysterious Orient. I don't think anybody knew about it. It was a place of refuge. When, what was the exact date on which you left? I'm not sure. I think it was in January. I'm not sure of the exact date it was January Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 11 of 108

12 So it was sort of a birthday present for you? Arriving in Shanghai, everything happened on my birthday. When did you arrive? February 22. And your birthday is? February 17. So then when you arrived in 1939 you were six years old? Six years, yeah. Could you describe your voyage? Yes, I remember a lot of that. It was a luxury liner. It was an Italian luxury liner, one of those that keeps cruising back and forth between the far east and Shanghai, and I remember sending letters to my grandmother by writing on scraps of paper and throwing them into the water. I feel I m being analyzed. And I remember the places we stopped, that was very interesting. We stopped at Port Said and I have memories of being picked up by some Jewish community members who took us to yeshiva 6 and also in Aden and then in Bombay I remember getting off the ship and in Singapore and in Hong Kong and in Manila. I don't remember the arrival in Shanghai, the day, but I remember the camp we went to, the people and the fear and the Chinese and the noise and the fear and the noise and the fear and so I remember. Did your parents do anything to help you with the fear or was it just a frenzy? I don't think I ever verbalized my fear. I wasn't old enough to verbalize. It was just everybody was so concerned with dealing with their own fear and I think that's why I say my fear and anxiety was from what I saw; their fear and anxiety was a more realistic one because they knew what they were getting into. I mean, here they were I didn't worry about getting a job. 6 A traditional Jewish school. Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 12 of 108

13 Knew what they were getting into in what way, before you said that they didn t know? They were arriving in Shanghai, and you had to have an apartment, you had to have a job, you had to start living, and you had to start providing for the family. That wasn't my problem. My problem was just I was afraid. I guess the age of six is probably a fearful age anyway in a child. I'm not sure how it is in the developmental stage. Certainly at my stage it was very, very fearful. I wouldn't let my mother go to the bathroom alone for fear that I was losing her in the crowd of people. We were right downtown in Shanghai. And then a very, very vivid memory of getting scarlet fever and starting an epidemic. You did? Yeah, yeah. This was in the camps in which you first stayed? Yes, it was not a camp, really, it was I guess the Jewish community was taking care of us, took it over as a transition camp, so I guess from that point, but afterwards it was just office building. In fact, I went there was a business school there in 1946 and 1947 no, later than that where I took courses in that same building. And they whisked me away I remember see, that's the problem. I remember all these things very vividly. Having this high fever and being dragged around. We were going to look for an apartment. When I say dragged around, it was obviously nobody knew that I had a high fever, but I remember that high fever. We came back to the camp that evening, and I was just burning up. That I remember very well. They whisked me away to a hospital, it was called isolation hospital. I have such vivid memories of that, my memories of that hospital. First of all, they put me in a room alone. I know exactly what it looks like. That's why my memories I tell you are pretty strong, they are always frightening me. And that room, there was no one else there as I started the epidemic, and I remember crying. I have to laugh about it now because I told Stanley about it. I was six years old, and I couldn't speak English. Well, I remember lying there with a very high fever and all of the nurses and doctors around me, and all I remember it's almost as though I spoke English, but I didn't obviously Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 13 of 108

14 because I wasn't there that long. And I remember crying and saying, "My father is a doctor. Please let me go home. He'll treat me." What did they say? I don't think they understood me. I probably said it in German, but in retrospect what I remember was that I communicated it to them somehow. So I must have said it in German. There was one German nurse and I remember that my mother was hysterical, obviously, I mean I was taken away from her and she couldn't see me. I was there for four weeks and I remember that's my problem, it's too damn sensitive reading faces. I remember the nurses bathing me in the adjoining bathroom and one nurse coming in, not saying a word, just pointing to the door and saying my mother was downstairs. She didn't say a word and I started yelling and screaming and the I think that's the way I am. I just pick up all these things, which are not for my benefit. You recovered after how long? About a month. By that time we had an apartment already, I remember. Then I remember some happy times. I came home and I had a big homecoming. All my dolls were sitting around and everybody. END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1 Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 14 of 108

15 TAPE 1, SIDE 2 You were talking about your big homecoming from the hospital. Yeah, we were all living in the same house, and there were four rooms on that floor and everybody was together, and I think, again, it was sort of a stability regained at that point, which had been lost. I just remember this as a fairly happy time. Going to school and starting school and being very eager to learn. I was always very interested in learning, always very good in school, and that's what I remember. That was the beginning of school and learning English, struggling with the th's, coming from a German really. I remember walking on the street, I had a private tutor, and I couldn't pronounce th, th. And these are the things I remember being taken care of. It was an extended family. Very much at that point it was an extended family. That was the first few months. And then we moved to another room but all in the same lane. These were kind of complexes where people lived in Shanghai. They called the lanes. Is this in Hongkew? Hongkew, yes. The next thing was, when we got the cable from my grandmother that my grandfather was in Buchenwald, and we weren't in time anymore to send him the visa. And then my grandmother came along. When was that? End of 39, September 39. Just six months after it happened very fast from the time we came. So she just made it before the restrictions? Yes. Hers was the last boat that left. Other people came by land then. I d like to go back to your apartment in the lane, or so-called apartment. Could you describe where you lived? I wasn't an apartment, it was a room. It was a tiny room and the beds were in there and the table was in there and the orange crate was there to take the place of a chair and the orange crate was there to take Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 15 of 108

16 the place of a night table. There was nothing there, I mean, it was just a room. But everybody was living together, we were way I never felt a deprivation of material things because I didn't it's not that I didn't have them, because we had them in Vienna, but that was never the thing that none of us children felt any material deprivation, those who were young, because we didn't know of anything better. I think we were struggling with other things. And of course, the people who really suffered were again I'm saying were the grown-ups, my parents. I mean I don't think I could do this, what they did. I mean, leave Poland first, be refugees in Austria, then be refugees again, and then be refugees to Israel, and be refugees to the United States, wow. And my father was a very, very happy man. And he find himself employment in the same field? My father always found employment. Not in the same field, no. He was carrying bread. He was a bread deliverer. He and my mother got up at two o'clock in the morning and delivered bread. They were both hard working, there was never any question. There were a lot of people who didn't work in Shanghai. Some because they couldn't find work, others because they found well, I guess they were given aid by the Jewish societies. But it wasn't the same amount or the same way as you would if you were working. I mean, you didn't get as much money. And some people lived in camps. Are you referring to the Heime, were those euphemistically called Heime? 7 No, that's what they were called, Heime. Shafrom Heim and Wayside Heim. 8 In fact my girlfriend, the one I spoke to on the phone yesterday, lived in one of those where families were separated. There were bunk beds and families were separated by curtains, but we never had that. My mother and my father worked very, very, very hard. I don't know anybody who worked as hard, ever. My uncle and my aunt lived in Shanghai, and of course if you listen to her, my aunt worked hard, too. My mother did physical work. 7 German for homes. 8 The names of two of the different "homes" for refugee Jews. Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 16 of 108

17 You mean delivering the bread? Yes. And then at home too, I assume. In Shanghai. At home in that so-called apartment? Yes, yes. In that room, not apartment. She delivered bread to people and the profits were pennies but they always managed. And when bread was rationed, we had the advantage that my father was working for a bakery, so we always had something. So there were always advantages. And they worked hard, very, very hard. What was the name of the bakery? I don't remember. It was Russian owners, White Russians, and Chinese workers and some Russian workers. I don't remember. I know where it was I remember, but I don't remember Do you remember, or did they ever tell you how they got to that bakery? Did the relief societies help them find? No, no. My father was very enterprising. I mean he went to the baker, just like he did in New York, just applied. And he was a hard worker and nobody ever fired him because there's no reason to. Certainly this was all on commission, so the bakery just had an advantage. They weren't paying him any salary, but he made maybe a penny off the bread. And the same thing with my mother. So your father found this job by himself, did they also find the apartment, the room in the lane by themselves? I think so, yes. I don't think they were helped. I'm not sure, because I was in the hospital at that time. I'm not sure, I think so. Could you tell me a little bit about the shopping, the way it was to do shopping? Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 17 of 108

18 In the beginning, I don't remember, but later on I remember there were little stores, grocery stores, that were opened by refugees it really became its own little community and that's where we shopped. We would buy an ounce of milk and a half an ounce of salami and a half a glass of cold water that was distilled. You could walk in there when you were thirsty because you couldn't drink anything. There was no plumbing. There was no plumbing in anywhere where we lived, and you couldn't drink the water unless it was boiled. My, that's a lifetime in Shanghai. That's not something that's so easy to explain. But we would go in and buy half a glass of water water! You would bring your own glass? No, no, they had free glasses. These are already European places that opened up in time. And later on there were even nightclubs and stores. It became a regular community. What about the medical facilities? Of course you mentioned the hospital. Well, that was an isolation hospital. It was run by foreign doctors and Chinese doctors and Chinese nurses. As far as the refugees were concerned, they, again, made hospitals in the Heime and in the surrounding areas. Provisional hospitals, I mean, they weren't hospitals to start out with. I had all the children's diseases and I ended up in all of these hospitals with dysentery and whooping cough and mumps and chicken pox and some of the diseases that were native to China. Dysentery was more there were some refugee doctors who were very good, who were the old-fashioned type. But I don't think that they were superb, but they did the best they could and people got well, people died like everywhere else. I mean there were medical facilities. What do you remember about the cultural opportunities, more for your parents then for you, although you did go into your teenage years there, did you? Well, in the sense of cultural opportunities the way one talks about in the United States of course we lived in a very secluded, separated, community. There were theaters and there were things in greater Shanghai, but I don't think any of us had the money or opportunity to go. And later some of the people Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 18 of 108

19 who lived in Shanghai were actors and singers, and they themselves started a Jewish theater, I think. I remember going to some cabaret kind of performances and I remember it was a Russian troupe that, Russian troupe? no, it probably wasn't Russian, but there was a Russian actress and they played operettas. And I remember that. I don t know why, in a way, I think of it it's very depressing. I don't want to think about the depressing thoughts. I don't know. On the other hand there are some things I'm jumping now there's something that s came out of Shanghai which was very good. The friendships. Tremendous friendships. Kinship, friendship, which is probably true of people who have gone through a lifetime which ten years is together. Sometimes I just want to forget about everything. Right now I'm sitting here and I just want to forget about everything, and not have to think about the past and make excuses of the present or the past, but the past was there. It was. Let's talk about some of the good things. You seem to feel good about the friendships. Yes. Could you tell me a little bit about your friends? We have very good friends. We're a group of people some of them, especially in New York, I mean I'm not there now they're very close, very close. And they get together and they are in touch. But I mean friends that I have who are in Israel now who are from Shanghai and in New York. They're just close friends. They're the kind of friend, it's not that you don't make those friends during a lifetime, but there's something else that you have with these people. We keep in touch. We write. I don't think there are too many Americans who keep in touch that way. For instance, yesterday I called Ruth because I was really getting upset about this and she said, "Why can't you detach yourself from all this and think of it just as an experience?" She says, "I have very happy memories." Well, I don't believe she does, but this is what she's telling herself. She says, and yet at the same time I can look at this little girl who was very scared and unhappy, which was her, talking about herself. So, we can say, "Oh, it was great, fine, and it was a very enriching experience and it was a very " I think it was enriching in many ways and I Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 19 of 108

20 think in many ways it made us assume responsibilities for which we were not prepared. And I think that this was the biggest, we were not going thought, a lot of the people, and maybe I shouldn't generalize, were not going through the regularly developmental stages that they would if they lived a "normal" life. And I think that's probably true of people who went to concentration camps. You just don't go through the normal stages. There's no way that you can go through the normal stages because you're exposed to everything. There's no room to go to. There's no room of one's own, physically and mentally. I mean this is really a very strong statement but it's very true. There was no way I could find out what do I feel about things. Are you saying there was actually no opportunity for friends to go off somewhere and just play as little children do? Oh, well, yes, yes. We played, we went to school. The schools were very good. And we had the opportunity. I'm talking about at home, having a room of one's own and I'm repeating this, physically and mentally, where you can close the door and you'd say, "Now I've got to find out how I feel about something. We didn't have that. We were always exposed to the anxieties around us and that was probably true in ghetto areas. I'm talking about local ghetto areas, well anywhere where people live in crowded areas. I don't think Shanghai was very unique about that. When I'm saying this, I'm saying this in comparison to modern-day life in the United States where we expect to have a room of our own. This is not so. So then your friends were all in the same situation? All in the same situation. So the friends were all from the district? Yes, yes. Most of them were only daughters, or they had an older brother or sister. Except for this friend Ruth, I don't know anybody who had a younger sister or brother. So not more than two children per family in general? Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 20 of 108

21 I would say one was the average, two was above average. You were telling me about your friends and the crowdedness, can you tell me something about your neighbors, you must have known an awful lot about them? Yes. Living with our neighbors on the same floor was like living in the same apartment, really, because that's essentially what it was. I think originally, no they weren't apartments, they were just one tiny little hallway and four rooms and we were four neighbors. I remember the ones we had well. Two were from Vienna, one had been our across-the-street neighbor in Vienna and another one was from Vienna and another one was from Danzig. And downstairs, they were from Berlin and from Poland and different places, one big gemish. 9 And my girlfriend lived across the lane, and the way we would communicate we didn't have a telephone was scream across, she would come. That's how we would compare answers to mathematical questions. If I came to pick her up to go to work in the morning, they had to close all the beds so that I can go in, you know, things like that. Pretty bad. How did the adult neighbors get along? Fine. I don't remember any see that's why, in thinking about all this, I wonder how they survived it. How so many people, maybe they didn't survive it as well as I think they did but in looking at it, they coped, they managed. But I don't know how my parents did it. And they came here. And so my father and my mother were very, they had a little apartment in New York, and they were very satisfied, and I could see it. I just need four walls to be secure. You wouldn't believe it if you come into this house, that this is all I need. But it's true, emotionally. It's just the chaos outside is very distracting, because I think our lives in Shanghai were always very chaotic inside. Inside and outside. And it was difficult, difficult, a lot of fear. I'm talking about myself. I don't know, perhaps other people didn't have the fear. Obviously, I did. 9 Yiddish for a mixture. Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 21 of 108

22 I d like to go back for a moment, you started talking about your education, schooling. Could you tell me a bit about the type of education that you had and how many years? I remember going to school until the age of 16. I graduated in 48 at 15, almost 16. It was a very good school, I thought, because when we graduated, we were ready to take the overseas Cambridge examinations and pass it qualify and pass it. So I think that speaks for itself. I thought we had a good education. There was obviously no delinquency or things like that going on at all, at all. Who had time for that? Who even thought about these things? That probably was true of other schools in America too at that time. There was no crime among the well I don t know, maybe there was. Yes, there may have been crime among the refugees because they needed food, they would steal. But I remember once, I had a girlfriend and she was rather poor. Well, we were all poor. I shouldn't say she was rather poor. I remember during break I asked her to hold my sandwich while I went into the bathroom. I came out, she'd finished it. And not because she, you know, she was hungry! Were you very angry or did you understand? No, I don't think so. I don't think I was angry. I don't remember. What was the name of the school? It was called SJYA, Shanghai Jewish Youth Association, and it was built by funds from Sir Eli Kadoori and Horace Kadoori Horace Kadoori really. I have him in my autograph, Horace Kadoori. Yes, they are a big family. They have a place in Israel, too, the Kadoori school. It's the same family, from Baghdad. They aren t in Shanghai anymore are they? No, they're in Hong Kong. The last I read about them, they were in Hong Kong. They were written up in Time magazine when they were really very wealthy, yeah. Actually the Shanghai years, I went to a different school first. I went to SJS, Shanghai Jewish School, which was part of the Sephardic and the old-time community. And then when the war broke out and we had to go into the restricted areas no, Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 22 of 108

23 even before that, when the Kadoori school was built we switched to Kadoori school. We called it Kadoori school, SJYA. When was that, the year, do you remember? I think it was right in the beginning, 41. I think the school may have been in temporary quarters earlier, probably in 40, and then they built a big school. I have pictures of it, with all my teachers. I have a precious thing because I was very good in school. Like everything else, I was crazy. I had to be first. If I was second; I don't think that's good, but anyway that's how I was. And of course I was very well known in school and when the teachers I think it was a birthday party or something. I have it in my album. I have a picture with all the teachers, which is how can you go up to teachers and say you'd like a picture with all of them? So I have it, and that may be something you might want to use. In fact, any of the people who are writing books about Shanghai, that would have been something too. So they re really unique pictures? Yeah, yeah. We ve talked about your secular education, what kind of religious education did you have? In that same school it was a Jewish school. I remember we had a teacher and that was the basis of my Hebrew. I mean, when I came to Israel I had a basis, because we learned the alphabet, we learned to read, we learned to write. While I knew the word bocher meant yeshiva bocher, 10 but still it laid the basis so that I could read Hebrew. At least I didn't have to start the alphabet in Israel. And it was, we took bible lessons, in school, and we were made to come Friday evening to the services and we had Purim parties and we had Chanukah parties. It was a very, in our school, other than that you could go to 10 Yiddish for a student at a Jewish talmudical academy. Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 23 of 108

24 Beit Yacov 11 and Talmud Torah 12 and yeshiva, 13 and there were a lot of large yeshivas, large religious community. Oh definitely, it was all there. Was there any specific religious orientation in terms of Orthodox or less Orthodox? Orthodox. It was Orthodox? Yes, there was some that were Conservative which was from the German community less so, but also not Reform. The Reform did not exist at that time. And during the big holidays they would hire theaters, movie houses, cinemas, okay that s they call them, and they were used for everything. They were used for services. During the bombings they were used as air-raid shelters with the antiaircraft guns up on the roof garden and we were sitting downstairs. Our seats, I mean, we weren't really protected, but; are we running out? But certainly more than in our houses, because our houses were paper, not paper houses, but they didn't protect us from anything. Yes, so there was a very I remember Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur very, very fondly very fondly. I remember what my grandmother wore, I remember what my mother wore. I remember them being home for the holidays, not having to go. I remember the cake that was baked, the very warm feeling. We always could bake a cake because we could bring it down to the bakery to have it put in the oven. See, we had no oven, we had nothing, no running water, no plumbing. And I remember my grandmother. I have the pearls. These pearls I have. It's the only thing I have left. But sitting in the synagogue or where she was praying. Some of them looked like Hillel, 14 you know, which were sort of rooms converted into not regular synagogues. Then we had one regular synagogue, that I would, what was it called? END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2 11 A parochial school for girls. 12 Yiddish for a Hebrew school for children. 13 Yiddish for a traditional Jewish higher school. 14 The Jewish student centers on many U.S. university campuses operated by B'nai B'rith. Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 24 of 108

25 TAPE 2, SIDE 1 On the other tape we were talking about services, and you were trying to remember the name of the synagogue? Something Moishe, Moishe, I can t remember. Ohel Moishe? Ohel Moishe it was. I just drew a blank now obviously because and that was not far from us, and I remember going there and standing in front of the synagogue, all dressed up, the boys were standing and the girls were standing the usual thing. We spilled over into the street, and one of the things that was nice, in comparison to someone whom I spoke to whose memories of going to the synagogue in Germany, even during the best of times, was not to concentrate in front of the synagogue, not to draw any attention. I couldn't understand that, because we were there and we didn't have to worry about being there or not being there. There was a certain freedom in Shanghai, with everything, with the fact that we were under one of the things I probably didn't mention was that we were under Japanese control. We were in a peculiar situation because we came with stateless passports. I don't think the Japanese knew too much about Jews or non-jews. It's only that I think with Hitler's influence that we were put in these. But I m saying that it was a very Jewish upbringing, and I think that's another thing make that a big jump to Madison. Because that is the thing I initially missed, because from Shanghai, to Israel, to New York, and then to the Midwest. And okay, but I won t touch on that. Yeah I do want to get into that much more once we get through this. You mentioned before that you remembered what your grandmother wore and what your mother wore. Could you tell me a little more about that? Could you describe it? I remember my grandmother's shaytl. I remember her dress. What was it like? Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 25 of 108

26 I have a picture here, it s on the mantelpiece, and that's the why I remember her best. I remember my grandmother very well. I grew up with my grandmother. I mean we grew up, okay, that part of Shanghai from 1939 to 1946 when she died, 46 or 47 I m not sure now. My grandmother lived in the same room with us, so we had to put up a cot at night my mother, my father, I, my grandmother. My father and mother were gone by the time I got up to go to school. My grandmother would get up before I did to put wood in the stove. It was like living in a little shtetl. And my way of finding out what the weather was there was a hole in the window I'd stick my hand out. I swear, that's what I remember, sticking my hand through, finding out how cold it is outside. It's riotous, when you think of it. We couldn't even fix the windowpane. And then having to get hot water. We'd get hot water, boiling water, to make coffee. I had to go across the street and get it with little wooden chopsticks that were used instead of money. It was across the street, which was out of the ghetto, so many times somebody would see a child they'd say, "Why don't you go across?" Because they would never do anything to the children, the Japanese. They were very good about that. You didn t need a pass, did you? Our school didn't need a pass even though it was outside. I don't know no, I didn't need a pass. But other children if they my cousin went to another school and he did need a pass, as children, yes. But they came to our plays and I remember one time they came and there was a Purim play and they of course were always guests of honor, the Japanese. They were sitting in the first row and there was a Purim play where they were carrying Haman off the stage and he walked out and everybody was afraid to say anything or even turn around look while he was walking out, one of the top officials. Because probably he saw his end, too. You think he identified himself with Haman? Oh, it must have been. I mean why at the point where they carried Haman off. At least that's what they said at that time. I remember that, yeah. Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 26 of 108

27 I d like to just get a little description in here; you mentioned that cake would seem to be a special thing that you had on Rosh Hashanah, could you describe that? Yes, like a out of yeast. Did it rise? Yes, and we had to put it under the pillow until it rose, under the [sounds like; parameth 15 ]. What is a [sounds like; parameth?]? That's a Yiddish word for [sounds like: duchen]. Do you know what a [sounds like: duchen] is? It's a goose down cover, a down cover. In German it's [duchend?], at least that's what we called it, and in Yiddish it's [sounds like: parameth]. You don't know the expression? That s the word, in fact I heard it on the radio, it s a funny story, which I don t know if I should go into this now. But we used to put it under that until it rose, and then take it down to the bakery. Yes I remember that cake very well, very well. Did you frost it? No, no. No, but I think there was cinnamon and sugar inside. You talked a bit about services and the things that you did in school, religious observances, could you tell me a little bit about the Gemeinde 16 in Shanghai? Was your family involved in that, or were you just involved by virtue of being Jewish? When you say Gemeinde, you mean socially? No, the Yiddish Gemeinde Oh no, just by virtue, just by virtue of being part there. There were those people who worked for the Gemeinde and they're always those people who are politicians and work and get involved. No, no. Was your family at all aware of the activities? 15 Yiddish and German here and below, no time track. 16 Yiddish or German for community, the organization that governed the Jewish community. Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 27 of 108

28 Oh yeah. What kinds of things? The Yiddish theater. That was under the Gemeinde also? No, it wasn't under the Gemeinde. But it was such a small area so that if there was a Yiddish theater people would go. It was in primitive surroundings, at least the ones I remember. I don't remember anything fancy. I'm talking about Hongkew now, talking about Hongkew. There was another part of Shanghai that only became known to me after 46, which I became involved in. In what way? Well I started, the last year of my school, I went back to SJS. Which is? Shanghai Jewish School, the other one. Because most of the teachers in our school had left by that time, those who had German quota had left. And also I belonged to Betar, 17 which was very big in Shanghai, in Hongkew, and there was an even bigger Betar in Frenchtown that's what they called it, the French concession and after the war the two would very often get together, merge, and some of the students who were in my other school, I knew them through Betar, there was a lot more interaction between them. These were the Russian Jewish girls and boys and the Sephardic. You could go out of the ghetto. I mean, you could go into Frenchtown or with the Bund, or I took courses in the building which is what used to be the camp. Business courses? Yeah. I remember once our teacher took us from the other school took us to the Lyceum Theater to see Julius Caesar and Pride and Prejudice. Now, these were big events. Little things that others take for granted. 17 A Zionist youth group. Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 28 of 108