C NTLOKOA. organisation, apart from you and Pongani? Yes, at the same. time as I was talking, Sister Bernard came running and I

Transcription

1 If:' V; 4 *"sv > > f * / ' ' fi**> * V * vw M.» ( h >, : * * V* ;<* \ ; «* r '* ~ %.*' ; * 37 C NTLOKOA \ organisation, apart from you and Pongani? Yes, at the same time as I was talking, Sister Bernard came running and I remember I heard her talking to a different Policeman and asking as well what was going on and she was told: "Fuck off, meid", and the tear-gas cannister was thrown, was shot over her head, which also hit one of the windows and, well, I was not looking at the back at the time. I do not know what happened to that tear-gas cannister, but then from there I started hearing people scream. Some more tear-gas was thrown, i w man who had another hand held sort of cannister and he threw it inside the classrooms, and at the time I turned back and there was a whole lot of pandemonium breaking, you know, people were exploding grenades and tear-gas inside the hall and people were breaking windows at the front, but as people, I saw particularly one student who broke a window at the side of the doors and as he was trying to get out through this window, the policeman with the quirt shambocked that particular student and, therefore, they entered, and others I were rushing out of the doors, and there were shotgun fired ( 0) \ * ttowards the general direction of the hall at that time. And they got out of the door and ran right at the back and there were windows breaking at the same time at the back, and I suppose... Did you hear them? Yes, I heard windows breaking, but there was one of these windows that broke, but afterwards windows started breaking at the back of the hall. So... Just pause there for a moment. Are there any glass doors in that school hall? -- No, there are only three steel doors. There are no glass doors. (30) What/

2 C NTLOKOA What are they? Steel doors? Steel doors. There are no glass doors? No, there is not a single glass door. Now, did all the policemen, as far as you could see, remain on what is the western side, namely between the gate and the hall? No, no, then as these glasses started breaking at the back of the hall, I assumed that students were trying to get out of the windows and run away from the teargas fumes in the hall, but then apparently two of the policemen also heard this and those who were outside, who did not (10) come into the gate, also ran in Poswayo Street towards the back of the hall and two who were inside also ran towards that direction and after a while there was some shooting at the back now. Well, I did not know who they were shooting at and how they shot, because I was on the other side. Yes? And at this point I realised that things were really getting out of hand and that the situation was also getting out of hand. So, I quickly went to Sister Bernard and said it was bad at this point, to do something and I said, yes, that I would go and phone a lawyer, and we rushed from (20) the area, the scene there and ran towards the convent itself. And at the convent she went upstairs. I found a lot of kinds inside. The others were bleeding and so on, who were hiding in the convent itself. So, I just told them to keep quiet and Sister Bernard went to phone and while she was on the phone, there was a knock at the door and somebody first answered and refused to open. I then realised that it was one of the policemen and Pongani. So, I opened the door a bit and saw them and I opened the door and this policeman was very nice. There was a policeman there? Yes. (30) 1/

3 C NTLOKOA I just want to deal with this policeman for the moment. Do you now know his name? Now I know his name that he was Sergeant Hofmeyer. Hofmeyer? What did he come to be known as, as a result of this incident? The good policeman. The good policeman? Now, tell His Lordship what happened? Well, I think he was genuinely concerned, you know, as to what was going on there. 'So, he said he wanted to see Sister Bernard and I went to call her. She came and he said, well. Sister Bernard must come and see a senior police officer. (10) Yes? She asked him where he was and he said, no, he was still at the school, he was at the school. So, from the convent walking back to the school, we started talking to him, that is Hofmeyer, and it was a general sort of discussion as to why did the Police come in and he wanted to know what was the meeting all about. So, we said to him, but you know, in fact, the meeting was called to instruct students to go back to school the following day, but he said something, but then, what happened was completely unnecessary and he said that is a fact, and the action that the Police took was completely (20) unprovoked and unnecessary and it has led to a lot of people getting injured. And then we arrived at the hall. You said that he appeared to show concern? Yes, he was very concerned.. How do you know that? Well, I think his concern was, he was trying to find out exactly what was happening and why, you know, they were holding the meeting, but later we also, he removed some of the, well, the children were all headed into one group there. There were others with blood and so on. He is the one who actually went and removed them from that group (30) and/

4 C NTLOKOA V and he got umbrella from our group and tried to give it to these kids to shade them from the sun, because they were all on the ground there in the sun. So, he appeared to be very kind and considerate towards those children? That is correct. Now, well, now tell His Lordship. So, you went back there with him? Yes, we went back there with him. Yes. Then we arrived at the grass, which is just on the side of the hall there and we met a sergeant, who later identified himself as Labuschagne, but then he came and said (10) he was the senior police officer and so Sister Bernard asked him why they did what they did, and he said, well, we were holding an illegal meeting and I think the last question was, why did he not send two unarmed policemen to talk to whoever was speaking at that meeting and tell them that it was illegal, and he said all meetings in South Africa were illegal. And had he done that, those police would have been killed the same way that those two policemen were killed in Beckersdal. In Beckersdal? Yes. v'-' Now, just let us just pause there. Just explain that. (20) Had two White policemen been killed in Beckersdal? Yes. Where is Beckersdal? Beckersdal is on the west of Krugersdorp, just after Randfontein. After Randfontein? Did KRO or anybody you know have anything to do with the deaths of those two policemen? No, no, we were in jail actually when it happened and we only heard it through reports. What did Sister Bernard say when it was compared, when she said what happened in Beckersdal, and what happened here? She said, I mean, the comparison was not correct, because (30) first/

5 C NTLOKOA first of all, here we are dealing with children, because there were others who were about six, you know, to about fifteen, and the police then said, well, we are all the same. But then she asked for, did they have any documents approved to show that this particular meeting was illegal, because first of all, the meeting was indoors and there was not anything happening, except instructions to pupils to go back to school. So, then argument ensued about this Beckersdal thing between Sister Bernard and the policeman and he later got fed up and said: You are talking a lot of shit. And he left that place and (10) when he came back later he had a notebook and he took our names, that is my name, Sister Bernard, and Mrs Mhlongo who was at the school and Sister Raphael and, well, he actually asked for Sister Bernard's name, but he did not take it, he did not write it down, but there were also a number of their people with our group there, because we were also surrounded by some police, as well as the (inaudible). As we arrived back to the scene, we saw that there was a whole number of children who were sitting on the ground and who were gathered, surrounded by about four police, and as we came and were (20) talking to Labuschagne, other police surrounded us as well, and we were about six, seven, and he took our names. After he had taken our names, I asked him what his name was and he said his name was Labuschagne, and as we were talking there with Labuschagne, people had gathered, no, a van actually, a white bigger van, Police van, arrived at the scene and drove backwards into the school grounds and the Police that had been loading some of the children who were sitting on the ground into that van and they were packed, I think more than 50 were put into that van, at the back. And as they went in, there (30) was/

6 42 C 5 * NTLOKOA was another different one who had the quirt and he was shambocking the children as they got into that van and we protested. arrested? You know, I mean, why these pupils are being Why are they being shambocked, because he is arresting them anyway. So, he does not need to hit them, but after a while he stopped the shambocking of the children. Who did? Who stopped? -- This policeman, after we talked to him, you know, complained. Which policeman? Well, I can identify him, but I do not know his name. They did not give his name. (10) Now... So, as this was happening, people were, gathering, you know, outside at the corner of... You mean residents of Kagiso? Residents of Kagiso, yes, and I remember Isikwele, the corner of Isikwehle and Poswayo, there was quite a group there and the one mother... No, and also that time Father Kataka arrived. Father Kataka? Father Kataka. He was with Father Xhosa and a young man who is a novice in the church, who is training to be a priest, difference, and they approached the police who were at the gate. ^20) How was Father Kataka dressed? he was, I think, in a black suit. Can you remember? No, He was not in his, but he had a collar on. Yes? So, he approached the Police at the gate, but then I saw them closing the gate. I do not know what was going on, but he could not come in and I saw them remonstrating with another man again. I supposed he wanted to come in and he could not come in as well. Immediately after that they had gone back to the yard of the church and one parent also approached the Police and she was shouting like: No, we want (30) our/

7 C NTLOKOA our children. We are not fighting. The next thing there was "bang* and a tear-gas cannister was fired towards the direction, towards the back of those people who were gathered, but since the wind was coming towards them, it overcame them in that group. Now, would you just point out on EXHIBIT 2. where the parents were gathered? Perhaps you could just make some "X's" to show the position of the parents. They were about here and some started gathering here. May I just see that, so My Learned Friends can have a (10) look at that, My Lord. And you say that these parents started running away? Yes, after the tear-gas was fired at them. Now, Mr Ntlokoa, did you see any stone throwing there at that school? Stone throwing to whom? By anybody? No, there was not any stone throwing by anybody. Did you see the Police being stoned at all? No, I never saw Police being stoned. If there had been stone throwing, would you have seen it? Yes, because at the time we were surrounded by the Police (20) ourselves and the kids were right on the floor, you know, surrounded by Police, and anybody who would have thrown a stone, would have hit either us and/or the kids and the Police as well. Yes? You say you saw no stone throwing? -- There was no stone throwing. You told, you described to His Lordship that there was this loud "bang" with the original throwing of something? Yes. Before that happened, did you see any signs of confusion(30) among/

8 C5* NTLOKOA among the children there? No, what had happened, which was not very a big thing, was that as the Police came running in, some students who were outside and those who were at the doors, started, you know, running towards the back of the school and I suppose that, and otherwise the situation inside seemed to be contained, you know. Yes. Now, you told His Lordship that you asked Labuschagne his name. Did you write it down, by the way? _ Yes, we wrote Labuschagne down on a box of matches. Yes? But then, as we were waiting there he left and (10) went too the van, white van. I supposed he radioed somebody. And then he came back. He spoke to the other Police for a while and then came to us and those other Police opened the back of the door and the kids were loaded at the back of the truck were told to go away and those who were sitting there were told to go away as well, go home, and Labuschagne came to us and said a more senior police officer was coming. We must go and wait at the convent to discuss the whole thing that had happened that day. So, after then he said, he took that box from somebody, it was Dom, one of the young people who had (20) written the name down. So, he took that box, the name from the box and rubbed it off, but then I said to him, I mean, it, is useless, because I have already sort of memorised your name and I know it is Labuschagne. Then he did not look very nice. He looked very mad at me, but they all left and went back to their vehicles and drove away. Now, of course, later you heard that in that incident, at that school, that Makhi Legoate was killed? Yes, after they had left, then we had to start checking, you know, as to how many students had been killed, how many needed police (30) treatment/

9 45 C NTLOKOA \ treatment, yet to arrange for transport to take them to hospital, and then we heard that somebody, Makhi, had been shot by somebody who was with her, but we tried to locate her at that time and we did not know who had taken her to hospital. COURT: Mr Browde, before we get onto the subsequent events, it may be a convenient time to take the adjournment. MR B R OWDE; As the Court pleases. COURT ADJOURNS FOR LUNCH. t

10 ftr ^ ", v " v v ; :» 7 ^ «jtw'v 7»r. r* v * C NTLOKOA COURT RESUMES: LAURENCE JONAS NTLOKOA (still under oath) EXAMINATION BY MR BROWDE (continued) Mr Ntlokoa I think you, I just want to go back, I think you told His Lordship that one policeman at any rate showed concern for the injured children. Now I don't want the exact figures, more or less how many children were hurt in this incident, that you saw yourself? -- Those I saw were about fifteen and those I heard about were I think they amount to about thirty altogether* (10) Did you go to the hospital? Yes I went to the hospital. Why did you go to the hospital? Well I heard, as I said after the shootings and tear-gasing and so on and after the police had left we actually tried to check how many children were injured so that we could arrange for transport. Yes? But then somebody told us that one kid who was shot had already been taken to hospital by somebody, at that time we don't know wne,_we just heard it was Makhe Legoate so I first went, I immediately went to the hospital with some of the members of KyCO, that is Kagiso Youth Congress(20) and the student leaders to see which one was injured. Yes did you see Makhe in the hospital? No I only saw her corpse, I didn't see- her. You saw her corpse, very well. She died? Yes. What effect did this incident have on you? _ Well after this incident, emotionally I was very devastated and to a certain extent disgusted^because I could not understand why men who were supposed to be protectors of citizens should have done that thing where there was no provocation or any incident which warranted that type of action. (30) Particularly/

11 C NTLOKOA Particularly these were only children. Now did the executive of KRO take any action about this, what did they do? -- Yes the same evening we realised that the situation was really getting out of hand so we had an emergency meeting at the executive level and we thought of a number of avenues in which we could take action, one of which was to approach the Commissioner of Police in order to discuss this matter and so on, but I think after a lot of reflection we realised that from the reports that came, or that comes from the police usually they would deny (10) everything carte blanche without any sort of investigation. And as a result of that we decided to take this matter to the court and reveal this. Yes, now on Saturday 1 February I think Shimi Mone, the funderal service was held for Shimi Mono is that 'right? Thta's correct. Did you attend that funeral? -- I didn't attend the actual service, but I arrived there when the vehicles were going to the cemetary. Yes and would you just tell His Lordship what happened(20) that day? Well what happened earlier I don't know, but when I arrived we simply joined the procession of cars towards the cemetary and about three cars from where we were there was a big flatback truck which was occupied by people at the back. As we neared the entrance to the cemetary which was on a field outside, a sort of open field, this van which was in front of us was stopped and as a result all the cars had to stop and people in the van were instructed to get off the van, which they did and they had their hands in the air, you know as if they are surrendering and one (30)

12 *. ^ vc «ry.^5p *r. * r+ - *rtt >v;ja.w<?*yrcw»re»v «( C 7* NTLOKOA of them tried to explain to the police that they were only going to the funeral and they weren't doing anything wrong, but the next thing I saw, I saw a teargas cannister falling within their midst and they had to scatter. As they scattered they were chased by some policemen with "quirts" and a young boy of about 14 or 15 was arrested and as he was taken to the Hippo he was being assaulted, slapped and kicked by these three policemen who were taking him there. I did not understand why it was being done to him. Now just let me pause there for a moment. First of (1 of a^.1 you say they were policemen, how were they dressed? Same uniform, navy blue and blue. Yes, and these people on this flat truck that you've described, were they in any way demonstrating? No they were just on the truck and I mean that day the whole service was so monitored by the police that even some people that seemed to be civilians that there was nobody who would have taken a chance to demonstrate because there were lots and lots of police around. Yes, could you see any reason as far as you were (20 concerned for teargas? No I didn't see any reason. Well now this youngster, was he, what happened to him, you say he was assaulted, where did he end up? -- Well he endec being put into the Hippo and as he was put there he was still assaulted, and from there then the truck was moved to the side and the cars were allowed to go on. And you went on? And we went on but the people were chased back into the township with the "quirts". Now you mentioned a moment ago, you said there were civilians, were there civilians amongst the police or (30

13 4 C NTLOKOA were there, what do you mean? -- No, the police were patrolling but at the same time there were these small vans and there were women and men who were armed who didn't look like police at all. Were they White or Black? -- White, and they were sort of patrolling with the same police cars, police cars were patrolling and these vans were also patrolling. And you say you saw women amongst them? -- I saw women among them, who were armed. Some were at the back of these open trucks and others were inside. (10) Now I just want you to deal with the attitude to the pdice of the bus boycott. Did they in any way show their hand as regards the side they took in this busy boycott? Definitely, because just the second day after, the first day in actual fact when the bus boycott was called early in the morning there were buses going into the township and each bus had either soldiers or police who were armed in each bus as they went into the township. CO U R T: This was the second day of the boycott? The first day* (20) That was 2 January? No 7 January. MR BROWDE: You said earlier on that the bus boycott started on 7 January? -- Yes. And was it on that day that you saw these police on the buses? -- Yes. Yes, go on? -- And on this, that didn't work because people didn't board the buses anyway and on the second day road blocks were manned all around the townships and I personally went to, well had to go through one of these road blocks and what was happening there, one could see that (30) it/

14 5 C NTLOKOA it was really unnecessary because people, Combis were stopped, taxis, and the Traffic Department was involved as well, and they would go through the car with a fine toothbrush to see whether it had any mistake, the lights were working, people were taken off and they checked papers and this delayed, one taxi would take about twenty to thirty minutes and the next one tha-t CDmes the same thing happened, if it was wrong they just put it on the side or impounded it and the buses were standing just next to the road block so that people were really stranded this time because they were just stopped (10) there and they, some had to go into these buses and others were actually forced into those buses and the private cars they were only allowed one driver in a private car, they didn't allow passengers at all. Did you see that yourself? Yes I saw that myself. And these people who were taking these taxis which I think you described the as Combis, did you? Yes. Were they people at the time, people that were going to work or during the day or later, when did..? This was in the morning, early in the morning. (20) When people would normally be going to work? -- Yes when people were going to work. And then during the day the roadblocks would disappear and then in the evenings they would start all over again. COURT: So these were only during the morning..? Morning rush period and the afternoon. MR B R O W D E: Now there is going to be evidence placed before His Lordship of many acts of tear gasing by the police, you have described one or two. Did you yourself see other examples of tear gas? Yes I did. (30) Just/

15 C NTLOKOA Just tell His Lordship under what circumstances? -- As I explained the first one was at the funeral of Shimi Mono. Yes? Ttie other one was at the funeral of Makhe. Yes? -- Where police actually blockaded the whole gate and doors of the Church where the service was supposed to be held and they turned other people away and only allowed people in, certain people in, I don't know what kind of qualifications they were using, as to who can go and who cannot attend this funeral. But then later people, because they couldn't all go in the Church they started milling (10) around the Church and there was a tear gas cannister thrown in the midst of these people whilst the service itself was on. Did you ever see tear gas unconnected to funerals? I don t want to know about what you were told, did you yourself see anybody ever use tear gas other than the funerals? No, not that I can recall. Good, well now insofar as it is suggested that this application is either a Communist plot or an ANC scheme to falsely discredit the police I want to just go through (20) some of the documents with you. My Lord, I will be referring to documents - My Lord the documents that I shall be referring to Your Lordship will find in the First ana Second Respondents' documents, Volume 2 pages 544 to The first one is at page 855 My Lord. You see this is a long typed letter of some, I think twelve or thirteen pages.. COURT: I see it goes on. MR BROWDE: Yes, fourteen pages. First of all who typed this letter? I did. You typed it yourself? And you start the letter (30) "on/

16 7.... C 7 * NTLOKOA On the 7th of September " do you see that? -- Yes. Where were you when this letter was written? -- I was at home. Yes, was this before or after your association with Sister Bernard started? -- This was more or less during the same time. During the same time? Yes. And you say "Dear Comrades.." see that? -- Yes. Who were you addressing this letter to? To the YCS, that is Young Christian Students, South African Catholic (10) Council of Laity, Akiro, Casa, C L G, YCW and then CFS and Justice and Peace and Agra(?) which are organisations in the Catholic Churches that are fighting for justice. Now I don't want to go through this whole letter but on page 2 of the letter at the foot o f.the page the last rather large paragraph you say "I read tne Bicle during during the ten montns I scent in solitary confinement, but since I was reading out of forced reaction that is to say I had nothing else to do, I decided to read it all over again during the last 22 months. My realisation and dis-(20) coveries was that salvation history is totally bn the side objectively and subjectively of the poor, the oppressed. From Moses to Revelation the cry has always been "let my people go". Mow what I want to know is this, do you associate, did you then associate your activities with your religion? Yes that is correct. Do you still? Yes I still do. What Church do you adhere? Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Churcn? _ Yes. As far as you are concerned does the Church preach (30) violence/

17 C7.ll NTLOKOA * '» violence? -- No. Now at page 6 of this letter under the paragraph "Sipho Bonaventure Malaza", see that in the middle of the page? Yes I see. I don't want to go into detail but you say in the course of this paragraph that during your detention you were made to "stand on my feet on a cold floor without shoes, without a jacket..", etcetera. Are all these facts that you state herein correct? They are correct.! ' V Yes would you just read through that and see if there(lo) is anything that you would like to correct of it, or is it the treatment that you got, of your assault, the way you were kept standing, the time you were kept standing, and the one thing that you were conscious of doing was to pray, everything else being oblivious? Yes that is correct. And the fact that during that period you wrote a statement? -- Yes. Which you say "..is still unknown to me"? That is correct. "And I was taken to Groenpunt prison where Sipho was (20) also held", you see that? Yes. Is that correct? That is correct. Very well, now would you then go to page 949 My Lord. Do you see that this is called a Community Organisation? Do you know where this document stems from, two or three-page document? This was during a lecture that was given during a seminar on civil associations, therefore this was the idea of an individual of what he considers to be a community organisation. I t s not necessarily your opinion? No, no it's not.(30) It/

18 C NTLOKOA It was simply input and it was further discussed. Yes, you see on the second page of that, 950, "Our struggle at local level is both the fight against the Black Local Authorities and huge profits made by employers at the expense of residents. It is a fight against Apartheid and Capitalism at local level." Now there is a lot of reference in these papers to Capitalism, and the disparagement of Capitalism. What are your views, broadly speaking of the philosophy, the political philospy to which you would adhere if you were able to? Can you repeat that (10) question? Yes, there is a lot of criticism in these papers, or apparent criticism of the, of Capitalism, State run on Capitalistic lines, now I'm asking you if you had your choice along what lines would the State be run? To answer that I will say that I know definitely what I do not want and as to what alternative is there, the best that I think I have come across at the moment that would sort everything out here is what is enshrined in the Freedom Charter. Well now that's what I wanted to come to. Page, (20) Volume 1 My Lord.. COURT: Of the affidavits? MR BROWDE: Of the affidavits, now... COURT: What page? MR BROWDE: 241 My Lord of the First and Second Respondents' Answering Affidavits. Now you haven t got a copy in front of you? Yes I haven't got a copy. Before you are given a copy I just want to ask you to tell His Lordship something about the Freedom Charter. You say you would like a state to be run on the lines of the (30) Freedom/

19 10 C NTLOKOA Freedom Charter? That is correct. What does the Freedom Charter really mean to you? -- The Freedom Charter to me, and what it actually says for itself, means quite a lot because it is one document that tries to accommodate everybody, irrespective of race, colour or tribe and to me it also proposes certain polictical and economic system that will ensure that there is political equality and justice for all. Yes, well would you tell His Lordship some of the concepts which are enshrined in the Freedom Charter? (10) First is that the people shall govern and the doors of learning and culture shall be opened to all, I rm not necessarily giving them in chronological order. The land shall be owned by those who work it, the wealth of the country shall be shared among those who live in the country. There shall be security and comfort for all, there shall be housing and etcetera. Yes, now you said there will be justice for all, irrespective of colour, race or tribe I think you said? Yes. Is that enshrined in the Freedom Charter as far as (20) you know? Yes. Well now just have a look at it, I just want to go through it very quickly with you. COURT: Po you have a copy there Mr Ntlokoa? No I haven't got a copy. MR BROWDE: "We the people of South Africa declare for all our country and the world to know that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, Black and White". Yes. Is that what you were referring to? That's what I'm refering to. (30) Now/

20 NTLOKOA Now you see that it says that only a democratic state based on the will of all the people can secure to all their birthright without distinction of colour, race, sex or belief. Now do you go along with that? Yes, definitely. Do you believe in a democratic state? -- I do believe in a democratic state. What do you understand by a democratic state? Basically as a government of the people by the people and for the people in a nutshell, but actually generally what I (10) W understand by democracy is a system where everybody is given a right to contribute first with the enactment of the laws and first by contracting himself to the very same laws or system that have been drafted with the consultation of all. That system will be democratic as far as I am concerned. Yes, lower down on this page of the Freedom Charter it says "Every man and woman shall have the right to vote and all people shall be entitled to take part in the administration of the country", do you believe in that? Yes. Is that what you are saying? -- That's what I'm saying{20) just in a different way. Yes now as far as the other concepts, the all being equal before the law, do you agree with that? Yes. And what do you say about the discriminatory laws which exist in this country? Well they will have to go obviously. Yes, now you know that one of the aims and objects of the ANC is to get rid of discriminatory laws, do you agree with that because it is part of the ANC policy? No, not because it is part of the ANC policy but maybe I could (30) tell/

21 C NTLOKOA tell you in a nutshell what I have come to in a way hate the Apartheid laws, I mean as I grew up and started learning, I started realising that there were a number of living things, one you had plants, you had animals and you had man and plants have the power of growth only and animals had the power of growth and maybe instinct or sensation, and man had the power of growth as well as instinct, that is sensation, and reasoning ability and free will, and I started realising that the society that we are living in here is based in such a way that certain groups of people are camped or rather (10) confined to certain areas and are not allowed to share the privileges that are enjoyed by other people and the, unless I am an animal then I have no cause to complain about that things that I see to be wrong, and that are not acceptable to me. Now if somebody can prove that I am an animal or less than an animal then I would definitely accept a system that deliberately separates people and make others live in sub-human conditions and others in the wealth that is generated by everybody in that culture, and because of the fact that I believe I am a human being and I believe in (20) my human rights I feel this system has dehumanised people of my colour. And, the only way to put it right is to start regarding everybody as being equal and people must be tested o r judged on their merit, not because they have a different colour, but simply because they are, or are not, able to achieve in a particular field. Well thankyou Mr Ntlokoa, is that why you support the Freedom Charter? That's why I support the Freedom Charter. Yes, now you remember earlier on you mentioned that when you called meetings that you distributed pamphlets (30) as/

22 13 Cl NTLOKOA as one of the means of doing it? Yes that is correct. Would Your Lordship be good enough to look at page 248 of the second volume, I am going back to that second volume - I m sorry, 990, I beg your pardon, page 990. You see that there is a residents meeting called there, 990. Is this the type of pamphlet that you are talking about? _ Yes that is some of the type of pamphlets we distribute. Yes, now this is issued by KRO? Yes, Krugersdorp Residents' Organisation. Now you will see on this that the meeting will look (10) at the following, "The rent victory. The Krugersdorp Residents' Organisation made a petition to Koornhof on the problems of increased rents. This resulted in Koornhof announcing the lowering of rents in Krugersdorp Black Townships." Now Mr Koornhof was then the Minister was he not? Yes. And did KRO petition him in regard to the raising of rents? Yes that's correct. And did it in fact happen that the Minister then lowered the rents? Yes. (20) Who had the rents been raised by? The Community Council. Yes, had the residents been consulted at all? No we just got slips of paper telling us that rents are being increased. Yes, and then it goes on, "The changing of the Community Councils. The White Government has decided to change Community Councils to Black Local Authorities, the election of which will be held in November this year. Come and see how this will affect you in your day to day lives". (30) Now/

23 C7.27 _ NTLOKOA Africa so that it became our concern simply because it was going to affect Black people. Yes. And it didn't reflect what the Black people of this country wanted, that is even of Kagiso and Munsieville. Yes, and then you've got other problems, we'll also talk about the problems that faced the Black people of Krugersdorp for example housing and others, of course that was directly in line with what KRO was established for? That is correct. Ngw perhaps we should just tell His Lordship a little o about the International Youth Year, if you would be good (10) enough.my Lord to look at page 233, sorry 973 my pages are double-numbered, 973. Now this is for some reason included several times, there are pamphlets relating to the launch of Youth Year, was KRO as a body supportive of the International Youth Year? That is correct. What was the International Youth Year? The United Nations declared 1985 the International Year of the Youth and the themes were participation, development and peace and in line with also some of our programmes we believed that everybody must have the right to participate in (20) whatever development is taking place, everybody must be developed and there must be peace for all. I think that is embraced by KRO that's why we are challenging the local system, that are actually contributing to the lack of peace in our local area, and generally in the country at large, so that the International Year of the Youth affected us directly because there are youth or young people who live in Kagiso and Munsieville as a result of which we had to also think about them as a separate group of our community. Yes, well this document says, first of all it's got (30) a/

24 C NTLOKOA Now was KRO in favour of the change from Community Councils to Local Slack Authorities? No, no, we weren' t i Why not? Because it's more or less based on the same fallacy that other people can make laws for others without consulting them. w&ll. Yes? So that's why it was going to be a failure as Yes, you've made that point. Then "Sending people to the rural areas. This is a new orderly movement and resettlement of Black persons Bill which will be used to (10) send people to the rural areas". Was there any reason to fear that this might happen to the residents of Kagiso and/or the residents of Munsieville? It was already on the pipeline that Munsieville would be moved to, we dort't know where as yet, but the Resettlement of'black Persons Bill would have affected residents of Munsieville and even of Kagiso very drastically. Yes, and then of course there is the reference to the new Constitution, do you consider that question to be within the ambit of KRO? Yes definitely. (20) Why? Because it talks about Black people and KRO is a civic organisation that represents the aspirations of Black people in Krugersdorp, that is Kagiso and Munsieville. Yes? And anything that is going to affect our life is our concern. Basically the Community Council which might be the immediate sort of authority that deals with civic, or that we are opposing, is not by itself or it did not creat itself, it has been created by a certain structure, and the structure is the Government, which at the same time started proposing the tri-cameral system for South (30) Africa/

25 16 C NTLOKOA a badge on it of the UDF, was it as part of the UDF that..? The UDF also supported the International Youth Year. And you virtually in your evidence summed up what this is all about. You said that the themes for IYY are participation, development and peace and young people have seen the need to come together to'solve their problems and so on. Was there anything connected with violence or anything of that kind in the International Youth Year? No not that I can remember of, but from the one that I was involved in, that is this and other projects on the IYY, I don't (10) remember violence being associated with the IYY campaign. Was it as far as you were aware, was it an ANC-inspired movement? No I said it was, the Resolution came from the United Nations General Assembly. Yes, now would you look at page 992, you'll see a document called KRO Electoral Committee, and it runs into quite a few pages afterwards of a handwriting. I understand that is not your handwriting but the writing of Mr Magotla is that right? Yes. Very well I just want to find out, if you look at (20) 995, paragraph 6 which reads "It.." meaning KRO, the justice committee of KRO which you see at the top 6f the page? _ Y e s. "It shall educate the residents on crime and its adverse effects on the community as a whole with the ultimate aim of bringing the high rate of crime in the township.." I presume bring down the high rate of crime in the township? Yes. Now was that one of the aims of KRO? That is correct. Tel His Lordship, has that to any extent succeeded (30)

26 17 C NTLOKOA in the township? -- It has succeeded in the sense that they really started implementing this from the beginning of December, that is 1985, as a result of which there wasn't a single person murdered since that period in Kagis unless if it happened maybe somewhere else, and Munsieville as well. And that even the number of casualties reported in the Leratong has dropped drastically, and even the number of cases that are handled by the local police station has also been reduced to unbelievable proportions. Do you remember the funeral of Seramula, S-e-r-a-m-u-l-a(10) I think it is? Yes, I remember about that funeral. Did you attend that funeral? No I didn't attend tht funeral. Now who arranged, made arrangements for the funeral? That was KRO in conjunction with the family. KRO in conjunction with the family, how do you know that? Eecause I was present. The first thing is that the date that he was shot an aunt, the sister and some member of the family came to the convent and explained to us that they are in trouble, somebody had been shot and they needed (20) our help, and we had a subsequent meeting where actually the planning of the funeral was done. But they explained to us that they belonged to a particular Church which believed in running funerals according to proper African tradition, that is the funeral as well as the night vigil become just one single process without a break, and as a result of which the funeral leaves by 7.00 or 8.00 in the morning and we didn't, we agreed that we couldn't sort of change their beliefs, and as a result of which we halped with everything else like the arrangement of times and (30) funds/

27 18 C NTLOKOA funds and the coffin and everything, and still allow the family to go on without us you know holding it the usual way that funerals are held. Yes, now by the way. My Lord the witness asked me at lunch time, I meant to ask Your Lordship, may he be seated he is going to be there for a long time? COURT: Yes. Thankyou My Lord. MR EROKDE: Thankyou My Lord. Mr Ntlokoa in amongst the allegations made by the police is the suggestion that what you are trying ot do here is make, as I have told you, (10) the place ungovernable and then create what is called liberated areas, or liderated whatever. Do you know anything about that? Well I've heard and I've read it in the newspapers and so, but that hasn't been and has never been the policy of KRO to for instance turn the township ungovernable. I've explained that part about that the township has never been governable in the first place. Yes. But turning them into liberated zones, well basically we have no contact whatsoever with the ANC and we never even thought of turning the township into libera-(20) ted zones. We are just doing what we think needs to be done in order to make the living of our people better. Yes, now do you believe that the presence of the police and the defence force in large numbers are conducive to that, or are.. What do you feel? I d o n t feel they are conducive to that at all, because in my experiences most times when the defence force or the police come into the areas there is always trouble, and when they are not in the level of trouble is always minimal. Yes. -So that I think actually it is the other (30) way/

28 % 19 C NTLOKOA way round, that the police actually by coining into our communities and behaving in the manner that they behave simply doing damage, I mean maximum damage in our communities, that itself makes the townships as you say ungovernable because people get very affected by being shot, tear gased and oeaten up by the police, and as a result of that they retaliate and every time anybody who is being attacked is going to retaliate to protect himself, and they will use as I could say, primitive weapons which eventually lead to more damage, more people dying rather. (10J Yes than the security forces, but that in itself does not bring peace and happiness for the people of the townships. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BURMAN: Mr Ntlokoa, what do you understand by the use of violence to achieve political ends? I understand it to be the use of violence to achieve political ends to change over systems that is taking up arms against the Government that you are not satisfied with. What else do you include in the term "violence" apart(20) from armed struggle? There are other forms of violence like maybe damage to property. Yes, could you tell us what they all are, what you understand? Damage to property. How? How? Stoning or burning. Necklace? Sorry? Necklace? Necklace, necklace is a form of violence as well. Yes, what else? Bombing and I think maybe stabbing people. I mean physically assaulting them. (30) Do/

29 C NTLOKOA Do you include lying in a Court of Law? Lying in a Court of Law? As violence? Lying in a Court of Law to achieve what is beneficial to yourself or your cause? No, no I don't believe that at all. No my question to you is not whether you believe in it, my question to you is do you include that in violence? _ No I don't include it as violence. But you don't believe in it? In violence? No, in lying in a Court of Law? Yes I said, I (10) took the oath when I came into this court that I'm not going to lie, so obviously I believe that I would not come here and take an oath that I'm not going to lie and start lying. Will you lie in a Court of Law to benefit yourself or the cause you believe in? No I wouldn't. Have you ever done it before? Lying in court? No' I've never done it before. What other forms of action do you- include in violence? -- I think I've answered that question, that the way I answered, those are actions that can be done, so I don't (20) know how I am going to answer it again. An act which includes the elements of an assault, do you include that in violence, preventing someone doing what he is entitled to do? I think we talked about violence in terms of achieving political objectives, now I don't see why you prevent somebody from doing what he wants to do and achieve political objectives so that are you still asking the first question or is it a different type of question? No Mr Ntlokoa, you have not answered my question. My question to you is, if you prevent someone doing what he (30) is/

30 21 C NTLOKOA is entitled to do in terms of the law, do you include that in violence? Yes I'll include it as violence. If someone is allowed to shop at a certain place and you prevent him, that is violence? Yes, that is violence. If someone is entitled to climb on a certain bus and use certain transport and you prevent him, that is violence? -- If you beat him up, that is violence. No, no just preventing him? No, no that is not violence. So preventing him from shopping at a certain place is violence, but preventing him u s i n g a bus...? No I (10) thought you said by assaulting, by using physical force on that person, not to buy or not to board a bus, I don't mean by simply preventing that person that becomes violence. Violence can only be associated with force. And if you by any action prevent someone from buying at a certain place, do you regard that as a violent action? That depends what typp of violence. If it involves force, then it is violence, but if it is other means, there is persuasion on the other hand and there are other ways (20) that people can be induced or persuaded not to shop in town or not to board buses. Those matters are not violent, but if force is used to stop a person from buying where he wants to buy, then that is violence. And not following the laws of the land to get political change, is that a violent action? No, not following the laws of the land to get political change is not violence. Yes but if the law of the land says for example you are not allowed to have a certain meeting and you have it, is that the use of violence? No, it is not the use of (30) violence/

31 Collection Number: AK2145 KRUGERSDORP RESIDENTS ORGANISATION AND 4 OTHERS v. THE MINISTER OF LAW AND ORDER AND 2 OTHERS 1986 PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand Location:- Johannesburg 2012 LEGAL NOTICES: Copyright Notice: All materials on the Historical Papers website are protected by South African copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, or otherwise published in any format, without the prior written permission of the copyright owner. Disclaimer and Terms of Use: Provided that you maintain all copyright and other notices contained therein, you may download material (one machine readable copy and one print copy per page) for your personal and/or educational non-commercial use only. People using these records relating to the archives of Historical Papers, The Library, University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, are reminded that such records sometimes contain material which is uncorroborated, inaccurate, distorted or untrue. While these digital records are true facsimiles of the collection records and the information contained herein is obtained from sources believed to be accurate and reliable, Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand has not independently verified their content. Consequently, the University is not responsible for any errors or omissions and excludes any and all liability for any errors in or omissions from the information on the website or any related information on third party websites accessible from this website. This document is part of a private collection deposited with Historical Papers at The University of the Witwatersrand by the Church of the Province of South Africa.