PLATO Rpuli Translat from th Nw Stanar Grk Txt, with Introution, y C. D. C. REEVE Haktt Pulishing Company, In. Inianapolis/Camrig iii
Book 1 SOCRATES NARRATION BEGINS: I wnt own to th Piraus ystray with Glauon, th son of Ariston, to say a prayr to th goss, 1 an also aus I want to s how thy woul manag th fstival, sin thy wr holing it for th first tim. I thought th prossion of th loal rsints was autiful, ut th show put on y th Thraians was no lss so, in my viw. Aftr w ha sai our prayr an wath th prossion, w start ak towar town. 2 Thn Polmarhus, th son of Cphalus, saw us from a istan as w wr hurrying homwar, an tol his slav oy to run an ask us to wait for him. Th oy aught hol of my loak 3 from hin. 327a SLAVE: Polmarhus wants you to wait. I turn aroun an ask whr h was. SLAVE: H is oming up hin you; plas wait for him. GLAUCON: All right, w will. Shortly aftr that, Polmarhus aught up with us. Aimantus, Glauon s rothr, was with him, an so wr Niratus, th son of Niias, an som othrs, all of whom wr apparntly on thir way from th prossion. POLEMARCHUS: It looks to m, Sorats, as if you two ar hurrying to gt away to town. SOCRATES: That isn t a a guss. POLEMARCHUS: But o you s how many w ar? SOCRATES: Crtainly. POLEMARCHUS: Wll, thn, ithr you must prov yourslvs strongr than all ths popl or you will hav to stay hr. 1 Hê thos: Most proaly as 34a 11 implis th Thraian goss Bnis, whos ult ha rntly n introu in Piraus. Howvr, for Athnians, Athna is hê thos. 2 S Glossary of Trms s.v. ity. 3 S Glossary of Trms s.v. loak. 1
Book 1 328a SOCRATES: Isn t thr anothr altrnativ still: that w prsua you that you shoul lt us go? POLEMARCHUS: But oul you prsua us, if w won t listn? GLAUCON: Thr is no way w oul. POLEMARCHUS: Wll, w won t listn; you ha ttr mak up your min to that. ADEIMANTUS: You man to say you on t know that thr is to a torh ra on horsak for th goss tonight? SOCRATES: On horsak? That is somthing nw. Ar thy going to ra on horsak an han th torhs on in rlays, or what? POLEMARCHUS: In rlays. An, sis, thr will an all-night lration that will worth sing. W will gt up aftr innr an go to s th fstivitis. W will mt lots of young mn thr an hav a isussion. So stay an o as w ask. GLAUCON: It looks as if w will hav to stay. SOCRATES: If you think so, w must. So, w wnt to Polmarhus hous, an thr w foun Lysias an Euthymus, th rothrs of Polmarhus, an what is mor, Thrasymahus of Chalon was thr too, an Charmantis of Paania, an Clitophon, th son of Aristonymus. Polmarhus fathr, Cphalus, was also insi, an I thought h look quit ol. You s, I han t sn him for som tim. H was sitting on a sort of hair with ushions an ha a wrath on his ha, as h ha n offring a sarifi in th ourtyar. W sat own si him, sin som hairs wr arrang in a irl thr. As soon as h saw m, Cphalus grt m: Sorats, you on t oftn om own to th Piraus to s us. Yt you shoul. If it wr still asy for m to mak th trip to town, you wouln t hav to om hr. On th ontrary, w woul om to you. But as it is, you ought to om hr mor oftn. I want you to know, you s, that in my as at last, as th othr plasurs th oily ons withr away, my apptits for isussions an thir plasurs grow strongr. 4 So plas o as I ask: hav your onvrsation with ths young mn, an stay hr with us, as you woul with your los frins an rlativs. SOCRATES: I rtainly will, Cphalus. In fat, I njoy ngaging in isussion with th vry ol. I think w shoul larn from thm sin thy ar lik popl who hav travl a roa that w too will proaly hav to follow what th roa is lik, whthr rough an iffiult or smooth an asy. 4 S 486 1. 2
Convrsation with Cphalus An I woul partiularly gla to fin out from you what you think aout it, sin you hav rah th point in lif th pots all ol ag s thrshol. Is it a iffiult tim of lif? What hav you to rport aout it? CEPHALUS: By Zus, Sorats, I will tll you xatly what I think. You s, a numr of us who ar mor or lss th sam ag oftn gt togthr, so as to prsrv th ol saying. 6 Whn thy mt, th majority of our mmrs lamnt, longing for th lost plasurs of thir youth an rminising aout sx, rinking partis, fasts, an th othr things that go along with thm. Thy gt irritat, as if thy ha n priv of important things, an ha liv wll thn ut ar not living now. Som othrs, too, vn moan aout th aus hap on ol popl y thir rlativs, an for that rason rit a litany of all th vils ol ag has aus thm. But I on t think thy lam th ral aus, Sorats. Aftr all, if that wr th aus, I too woul hav ha th sam xprins, at last as far as ol ag is onrn, an so woul vryon ls of my ag. But as it is, I hav mt othrs in th past who on t fl that way in partiular, th pot Sophols. I was on prsnt whn h was ask y somon, How ar you as far as sx gos, Sophols? Can you still mak lov to a woman? Quit, man, h rpli, I am vry gla to hav sap from all that, lik a slav who has sap from a rang an savag mastr. I thought at th tim what h sai was snsil, an I still o. You s, ol ag rings pa an from from all suh things. Whn th apptits as to strss an importun us, vrything Sophols sai oms to pass, an w sap from many insan mastrs. But in ths mattrs, an in thos onrning on s rlativs, th ral aus isn t ol ag, Sorats, ut th way popl liv. If thy ar orrly an ontnt, ol ag, too, is only moratly onrous; if thy arn t, oth ol ag, Sorats, an youth ar har to ar. 329a I amir him for saying that, an I want him to tll m mor, so I urg him on. I imagin whn you say that, Cphalus, th masss 7 o not apt it. On th ontrary, thy think you ar ol ag mor asily, not aus of th way you liv, ut aus you ar walthy. For th walthy, thy say, hav many onsolations. CEPHALUS: That s tru, thy ar not onvin. An thr is somthing in thir ojtion, though not as muh as thy think. Thmistols rtort is rlvant hr. Whn somon from Sriphus insult him y saying his high rputation was u to his ity, not to himslf, h rpli that, ha h 330a Namly, ath. 6 Go vr raws togthr lik to lik. 7 S Glossary of Trms s.v. masss. 3
Book 1 331a n a Sriphian, h woul not famous; ut nor woul th othr, ha h n an Athnian. 8 Th sam aount applis to thos who ar not rih an fin ol ag har to ar: a goo prson woul not asily ar ol ag if it wr oupl with povrty, ut on who wasn t goo woul not at pa with himslf vn if h wr walthy. SOCRATES: Di you inhrit most of your walth, Cphalus, or i you mak it yourslf? CEPHALUS: What i I mak for myslf, Sorats, you ask. As a monymakr I am in twn my granfathr an my fathr. You s, my granfathr an namsak inhrit aout th sam amount of walth as I possss an multipli it many tims. Howvr, my fathr, Lysanias, iminish that amount to vn lss than I hav now. As for m, I am satisfi to lav my sons hr no lss, ut a littl mor, than I inhrit. SOCRATES: Th rason I ask is that you o not sm partiularly to lov mony. An thos who hav not ma it thmslvs ar usually lik that. But thos who hav ma it thmslvs lov it twi as muh as anyon ls. For just as pots lov thir poms an fathrs thir hilrn, so thos who hav ma mony tak thir mony sriously oth as somthing thy hav ma thmslvs an just as othr popl o aus it is usful. This maks thm iffiult vn to with, sin thy ar unwilling to prais anything xpt mony. CEPHALUS: That s tru. SOCRATES: In, it is. But tll m somthing ls. What o you think is th gratst goo you hav njoy as a rsult of ing vry walthy? CEPHALUS: What I hav to say proaly woul not prsua th masss. But you ar wll awar, Sorats, that whn somon thinks his n is nar, h oms frightn an onrn aout things h i not far for. It is thn that th storis tol aout Has, that a prson who has n unjust hr must pay th pnalty thr storis h us to mak fun of twist his soul this way an that for far thy ar tru. An whthr aus of th waknss of ol ag, or aus h is now losr to what happns in Has an has a larr viw of it, or whatvr it is, h is fill with foroing an far, an gins to alulat an onsir whthr h has n unjust to anyon. If h fins many injustis in his lif, h oftn vn awaks from slp in trror, as hilrn o, an livs in antiipation of vils to om. But somon who knows h has not n unjust has swt goo hop as his onstant ompanion a nurs to his ol ag, as Pinar says. For h puts it harmingly, Sorats, whn h says that whn somon livs a just an pious lif, 8 A slightly iffrnt vrsion of th story appars in Hrootus 8.12. 4
Examination of Polmarhus Swt hop is in his hart Nurs an ompanion to his ag Hop, aptain of th vr-twisting Min of mortal mn. How amazingly wll h puts that. It is in this onntion I woul say th possssion of walth is most valual, not for vry man, ut for a goo an orrly on. Not hating somon vn unintntionally, not lying to him, not owing a sarifi to som go or mony to a prson, an as a rsult parting for that othr pla in far th possssion of walth maks no small ontriution to this. It has many othr uss, too, ut putting on thing against th othr, Sorats, I woul say that for a man with any sns, that is how walth is most usful. SOCRATES: A fin sntimnt, Cphalus. But spaking of that thing itslf, justi, 9 ar w to say it is simply spaking th truth an paying whatvr ts on has inurr? Or is it somtims just to o ths things, somtims unjust? I man this sort of thing, for xampl: vryon woul surly agr that if a man orrows wapons from a san frin, an if h gos ma an asks for thm ak, th frin shoul not rturn thm, an woul not just if h i. Nor shoul anyon willing to tll th whol truth to somon in suh a stat. CEPHALUS: That s tru. SOCRATES: Thn th following is not th finition of justi: to spak th truth an rpay what on has orrow. Polmarhus intrrupt: It rtainly is, Sorats, if in w ar to trust Simonis at all. CEPHALUS: Wll, thn, I will han ovr th isussion to you, sin it is tim for m to look aftr th sarifis. POLEMARCHUS: Am I, Polmarhus, not hir of all your possssions? Cphalus rpli with a laugh: Crtainly. An off h wnt to th sarifi. SOCRATES: Thn tll us, hir to th isussion, just what Simonis sai aout justi that you think is orrt. 9 S Glossary of Trms s.v. justi.
Book 1 332a POLEMARCHUS: H sai it is just to giv to ah what is ow to him. An a fin saying it is, in my viw. SOCRATES: Wll, now, it is not asy to isagr with Simonis, sin h is a wis an golik man. But what xatly os h man? Prhaps you know, Polmarhus, ut I o not unrstan. Clarly, h os not man what w sai a momnt ago namly, giving ak to somon whatvr h has lnt to you, vn if h is out of his min whn h asks for it. An yt what h has lnt to you is surly somthing that is ow to him, isn t it? POLEMARCHUS: Ys. SOCRATES: But whn h is out of his min, it is, unr no irumstans, to givn to him? POLEMARCHUS: Tru. SOCRATES: Thn it sms Simonis must hav mant somthing ls whn h says that to rturn what is ow is just. POLEMARCHUS: Somthing ls in, y Zus! H mant frins ow somthing goo to thir frins, nvr somthing a. SOCRATES: I unrstan. You man somon os not giv a lnr what h is ow y giving him gol, whn th giving an taking woul harmful, an oth h an th lnr ar frins. Isn t that what you say Simonis mant? POLEMARCHUS: It rtainly is. SOCRATES: Now what aout this? Shoul on also giv to on s nmis whatvr is ow to thm? POLEMARCHUS: Ys, y all mans. What is in fat ow to thm. An what an nmy ows an nmy, in my viw, is also prisly what is appropriat somthing a. SOCRATES: It sms, thn, Simonis was spaking in rils just lik a pot! whn h sai what justi is. For what h mant, it sms, is that it is just to giv to ah what is appropriat to him, an this is what h all giving him what h is ow. POLEMARCHUS: What ls i you think h mant? SOCRATES: Thn what, in th nam of Zus, o you think h woul answr if somon ask him: Simonis, what ow or appropriat things os th raft w all miin giv, an to whih things? POLEMARCHUS: Clarly, h woul say it givs rugs, foo, an rink to ois. S Glossary of Trms s.v. raft. 6
Examination of Polmarhus SOCRATES: An what ow or appropriat things os th raft w all ooking giv, an to whih things? POLEMARCHUS: It givs plasant flavors to foo. SOCRATES: Goo. Now what os th raft w woul all justi giv, an to whom or what os it giv it? POLEMARCHUS: If w ar to follow th prvious answrs, Sorats, it givs nfit to frins an harm to nmis. SOCRATES: Dos Simonis man, thn, that trating frins wll an nmis aly is justi? POLEMARCHUS: I liv so. SOCRATES: An who is most apal of trating sik frins wll an nmis aly in mattrs of isas an halth? POLEMARCHUS: A otor. SOCRATES: An who an o so st in a storm at sa? POLEMARCHUS: A ship s aptain. 11 SOCRATES: What aout th just prson? In what ations an what work is h most apal of nfiting frins an harming nmis? POLEMARCHUS: In wars an allians, I imagin. SOCRATES: All right. Now whn popl ar not sik, Polmarhus, a otor is uslss to thm. POLEMARCHUS: Tru. SOCRATES: An so is a ship s aptain to thos who ar not sailing? POLEMARCHUS: Ys. SOCRATES: So to popl who ar not at war, a just man is uslss? POLEMARCHUS: No, I on t think that at all. SOCRATES: So justi is also usful in patim? POLEMARCHUS: Ys, it is usful. SOCRATES: An so is farming, isn t it? POLEMARCHUS: Ys. SOCRATES: For proviing prou? POLEMARCHUS: Ys. SOCRATES: An shomaking as wll, of ours? POLEMARCHUS: Ys. 333a 11 S Glossary of Trms s.v. aptain. 7
Book 1 SOCRATES: For th aquisition of shos, I suppos you woul say? POLEMARCHUS: Of ours. SOCRATES: Tll m, thn, what is justi usful for using or aquiring in patim? POLEMARCHUS: Contrats, Sorats. SOCRATES: An y ontrats you man partnrships, or what? POLEMARCHUS: Partnrships, of ours. SOCRATES: So is it a just man who is a goo an usful partnr in a gam of hkrs, or an xprt hkrs playr? POLEMARCHUS: An xprt hkrs playr. SOCRATES: An in laying riks an stons, is a just prson a ttr an mor usful partnr than a uilr? POLEMARCHUS: Not at all. SOCRATES: Wll, in what kin of partnrship, thn, is a just prson a ttr partnr than a uilr or a lyr playr, in th way a lyr playr is ttr than a just prson at hitting th right nots? POLEMARCHUS: In mony mattrs, I think. SOCRATES: Expt, I prsum, Polmarhus, in using mony. You s, whnvr on ns to uy or sll a hors jointly, I think a hors rr is a mor usful partnr. Isn t h? POLEMARCHUS: Apparntly. SOCRATES: An whn it is a oat, a oat uilr or a ship s aptain? POLEMARCHUS: It woul sm so. SOCRATES: In what joint us of silvr or gol, thn, is a just prson a mor usful partnr than anyon ls? POLEMARCHUS: Whn yours must posit for safkping, Sorats. SOCRATES: You man whnvr thr is no n to us it, ut only to kp it? POLEMARCHUS: Of ours. SOCRATES: So whn mony is not ing us, that is whn justi is usful for it? POLEMARCHUS: It looks that way. SOCRATES: An whn on ns to kp a pruning knif saf, justi is usful oth in partnrships an for th iniviual. Whn you n to us it, howvr, it is th raft of vin pruning that is usful? POLEMARCHUS: Apparntly. 8
Examination of Polmarhus SOCRATES: An woul you also say that whn on ns to kp a shil an a lyr saf an not us thm, justi is a usful thing, ut whn you n to us thm it is th solir s raft or th musiian s that is usful? POLEMARCHUS: I woul hav to. SOCRATES: An so in all othr ass, too, justi is uslss whn thy ar in us, ut usful whn thy ar not? POLEMARCHUS: It looks that way. SOCRATES: Thn justi annot somthing xllnt, an it, my frin, if it is only usful for uslss things. But lt s onsir th following point. Isn t th prson who is lvrst at laning a low, whthr in oxing or any othr kin of fight, also lvrst at guaring against it? POLEMARCHUS: Of ours. SOCRATES: An th on who is lvr at guaring against isas is also lvrst at prouing it unnoti? POLEMARCHUS: That is my viw, at any rat. SOCRATES: An th on who is a goo guarian of an army is th vry on who an stal th nmy s plans an ispositions? POLEMARCHUS: Of ours. SOCRATES: So whnvr somon is a lvr guarian of somthing, h is also lvr at staling it. POLEMARCHUS: It sms so. SOCRATES: So if a just prson is lvr at guaring mony, h must also lvr at staling it. POLEMARCHUS: So th argumnt suggsts, at last. SOCRATES: It sms, thn, that a just prson has turn out to a kin of thif. You proaly got that ia from Homr. For h lovs Autolyus, th matrnal granfathr of Oyssus, whom h sris as ttr than vryon at staling an swaring fals oaths. 12 Aoring to you, Homr, an Simonis, thn, justi sms to som sort of raft of staling on that nfits frins an harms nmis. Isn t that what you mant? POLEMARCHUS: No, y Zus, it isn t. But I o not know anymor what I mant. I still liv this, howvr, that nfiting on s frins an harming on s nmis is justi. SOCRATES: Spaking of frins, o you man thos a prson livs to goo an usful, or thos who atually ar goo an usful, vn if h os not liv thy ar, an similarly with nmis? 334a 12 Oyssy 19.392 8. 9
Book 1 33a POLEMARCHUS: Proaly, on lovs thos on onsirs goo an usful an hats thos on onsirs a. SOCRATES: But on t popl mak mistaks aout this, so that lots of thos who sm to thm to goo an usful arn t, an vi vrsa? POLEMARCHUS: Thy o. SOCRATES: So, for thm, goo popl ar nmis an a ons frins? POLEMARCHUS: Of ours. SOCRATES: All th sam, it is thn just for thm to nfit a popl an harm goo ons? POLEMARCHUS: Apparntly. SOCRATES: Yt goo popl ar just an ar not th sort to o injusti. POLEMARCHUS: Tru. SOCRATES: Aoring to your aount, thn, it is just to o a things to thos who o no injusti. POLEMARCHUS: Not at all, Sorats. It is my aount that sms to a. SOCRATES: It is just, thn, is it, to harm unjust popl an nfit just ons? POLEMARCHUS: That sms ttr than th othr viw. SOCRATES: Thn it follows, Polmarhus, that it is just for many popl th ons who ar mistakn in thir jugmnt to harm thir frins, sin thy ar a for thm, an nfit thir nmis, sin thy ar goo. An so w will fin ourslvs laiming th vry opposit of what w sai Simonis mant. POLEMARCHUS: Ys, that rtainly follows. But lt s hang our finition. For it looks as though w i not fin frins an nmis orrtly. SOCRATES: How i w fin thm, Polmarhus? POLEMARCHUS: W sai that a frin is somon who is liv to goo. SOCRATES: An how ar w to hang that now? POLEMARCHUS: Somon who is oth liv to goo an is goo is a frin; somon who is liv to goo, ut is not, is liv to a frin ut is not. An th sam gos for nmis. SOCRATES: Aoring to that aount, thn, a goo prson will a frin an a a on an nmy. POLEMARCHUS: Ys. SOCRATES: So you want us to a somthing to what w sai for aout th just man. Thn w sai that it is just to trat frins wll an nmis
Examination of Polmarhus aly. Now you want us to a to this: to trat a frin wll, provi h is goo, an to harm an nmy, provi h is a? POLEMARCHUS: Ys, that sms wll put to m. SOCRATES: Shoul a just man rally harm anyon whatsovr? POLEMARCHUS: Of ours. H shoul harm thos who ar oth a an nmis. SOCRATES: Whn horss ar harm, o thy om ttr or wors? POLEMARCHUS: Wors. SOCRATES: With rspt to th virtu 13 that maks ogs goo, or to th on that maks horss goo? POLEMARCHUS: With rspt to th on that maks horss goo. SOCRATES: An whn ogs ar harm, thy om wors with rspt to th virtu that maks ogs, not horss, goo? POLEMARCHUS: Nssarily. SOCRATES: An what aout human ings, omra; shouln t w say that, whn thy ar harm, thy om wors with rspt to human virtu? POLEMARCHUS: Of ours. SOCRATES: But isn t justi human virtu? POLEMARCHUS: Ys, that s nssarily so, too. SOCRATES: Thn, my ar Polmarhus, popl who hav n harm ar oun to om mor unjust. POLEMARCHUS: So it sms. SOCRATES: Now, an musiians us musi to mak popl unmusial? POLEMARCHUS: No, thy an t. SOCRATES: Or an horsmn us horsmanship to mak popl unhorsmanlik? POLEMARCHUS: No. SOCRATES: Wll, thn, an just popl us justi to mak popl unjust? In a wor, an goo popl us thir virtu or goonss to mak popl a? POLEMARCHUS: No, thy an t. SOCRATES: For it isn t th funtion of hat to ool things own, I imagin, ut that of its opposit. POLEMARCHUS: Ys. 13 S Glossary of Trms s.v. virtu. 11
Book 1 336a SOCRATES: Nor th funtion of rynss to mak things wt, ut that of its opposit. POLEMARCHUS: Of ours. SOCRATES: So th funtion of a goo prson isn t to harm, ut that of his opposit. POLEMARCHUS: Apparntly. SOCRATES: An a just prson is a goo prson? POLEMARCHUS: Of ours. SOCRATES: So it isn t th funtion of a just prson to harm a frin or anyon ls, Polmarhus, ut that of his opposit, an unjust prson. POLEMARCHUS: I think you ar asolutly right, Sorats. SOCRATES: So if somon tlls us it is just to giv to ah what h is ow, an unrstans y this that a just man shoul harm his nmis an nfit his frins, th on who says it is not wis. I man, what h says is not tru. For it has om lar to us that it is nvr just to harm anyon. POLEMARCHUS: I agr. SOCRATES: You an I will fight as partnrs, thn, against anyon who tlls us that Simonis, Bias, Pittaus, or any of our othr wis an lssly happy mn sai this. POLEMARCHUS: I, for my part, am willing to your partnr in th attl. SOCRATES: Do you know whos saying I think it is, that it is just to nfit frins an harm nmis? POLEMARCHUS: Whos? SOCRATES: I think it is a saying of Prianr, or Prias, or Xrxs, or Ismnias of Ths, or som othr walthy man who thought h ha grat powr. POLEMARCHUS: That s asolutly tru. SOCRATES: All right. Sin it has om apparnt, thn, that nithr justi nor th just onsists in nfiting frins an harming nmis, what ls shoul on say it is? Now, whil w wr spaking, Thrasymahus ha tri many tims to tak ovr th isussion ut was rstrain y thos sitting nar him, who want to har our argumnt to th n. Whn w paus aftr what I ha just sai, howvr, h oul not kp quit any longr: rouh up lik a wil ast aout to spring, h hurl himslf at us as if to tar us to pis. Polmarhus an I wr frightn an flustr as h roar into our mist: 12
Examination of Thrasymahus What nonsns you two hav n talking all this tim, Sorats! Why o you at lik naïv popl, giving way to on anothr? If you rally want to know what justi is, on t just ask qustions an thn inulg your lov of honor y rfuting th answrs. You know vry wll it is asir to ask qustions than to answr thm. Giv an answr yourslf an tll us what you say th just is. An on t tll m it is th right, th nfiial, th profital, th gainful, or th avantagous, ut tll m larly an xatly what you man. For I won t apt suh nonsns from you. His wors startl m an, looking at him, I was afrai. An I think if I ha not sn him for h look at m, I woul hav n umstruk. 14 But as it was, I happn to look at him just as h gan to xasprat y our argumnt, so I was al to answr; an trmling a littl, I sai: Do not too har on us, Thrasymahus. If Polmarhus an I ma an rror in our invstigation of th aounts, you may sur w i so involuntarily. If w wr sarhing for gol, w woul nvr voluntarily giv way to ah othr, if y oing so w woul stroy our han of fining it. So o not think that in sarhing for justi, a thing mor honoral than a larg quantity of gol, w woul foolishly giv way to on anothr or lss than ompltly srious aout fining it. You surly must not think that, my frin, ut rathr as I o that w ar inapal of fining it. Hn it is surly far mor appropriat for us to piti y you lvr popl than to givn rough tratmnt. 337a Whn h har that, h gav a lou sarasti laugh: By Hrals! That is Sorats usual irony 1 for you! I knw this woul happn. I vn tol ths othrs arlir that you woul unwilling to answr, that you woul ironi an o anything rathr than giv an answr, if somon qustion you. SOCRATES: That is aus you ar a wis fllow, Thrasymahus. You knw vry wll if you ask somon how muh twlv is, an in putting th qustion you warn him, Don t tll m, man, that twlv is twi six, or thr tims four, or six tims two, or four tims thr; for I won t apt suh nonsns from you it was ovious to you, I imagin, that no on oul rspon to a prson who inquir in that way. But suppos h sai to you: What o you man, Thrasymahus; am I not to giv any of th answrs you mntion, not vn if twlv happns to on of thos things? You ar amazing. Do you want m to say somthing othr than th truth? Or o you man somthing ls? What answr woul you giv him? 14 In Grk suprstition, anyon sn y a wolf for h ss it is struk um. 1 S Glossary of Trms s.v. irony. 13
Book 1 338a THRASYMACHUS: Wll, so you think th two ass ar alik? SOCRATES: Why shouln t I? But vn if thy ar not alik, yt sm so to th prson you ask, o you think h is any lss likly to giv th answr that sms right to him, whthr w fori him to o so or not? THRASYMACHUS: Is that what you ar going to o, giv on of th forin answrs? SOCRATES: I woul not surpris provi it is th on that sms right to m aftr I hav invstigat th mattr. THRASYMACHUS: What if I show you anothr answr aout justi, on that is iffrnt from all ths an ttr than any of thm? What pnalty woul you srv thn? SOCRATES: Th vry on that is appropriat for somon who os not know what ls? An what is appropriat is to larn from th on who os know. That, thrfor, is what I srv to suffr. THRASYMACHUS: What a plasant fllow you ar! But in aition to larning, you must pay mony. SOCRATES: I will if I vr hav any. GLAUCON: H has it alray. If it is a mattr of mony, spak, Thrasymahus. W will all ontriut for Sorats. THRASYMACHUS: Oh ys, sur, so that Sorats an arry on as usual: h givs no answr himslf, an if somon ls os, h taks up his aount an rfuts it. SOCRATES: How an somon giv an answr, my xllnt man, whn, first of all, h os not know an os not laim to know, an thn, vn if h os hav som opinion aout th mattr, is forin y no orinary man to xprss any of th things h thinks? No, it is muh mor appropriat for you to answr, sin you say you o know an an tll us. Don t ostinat. Giv your answr as a favor to m an o not grug your tahing to Glauon an th othrs. Whil I was saying this, Glauon an th othrs gg him to o as I ask. Thrasymahus larly want to spak in orr to win a goo rputation, sin h thought h ha a vry goo answr. But h prtn to want to win a vitory at my xpns y having m o th answring. Howvr, h agr in th n, an thn sai: That is Sorats wisom for you: h himslf isn t willing to tah ut gos aroun larning from othrs an isn t vn gratful to thm. SOCRATES: Whn you say I larn from othrs, you ar right, Thrasymahus; ut whn you say I o not giv thanks, you ar wrong. I giv as muh 14
Examination of Thrasymahus as I an. But I an giv only prais, sin I hav no mony. An just how nthusiastially I giv it, whn somon sms to m to spak wll, you will know as soon as you hav answr, sin I think you will spak wll. THRASYMACHUS: Listn, thn. I say justi is nothing othr than what is avantagous for th strongr. Wll, why on t you prais m? No, you ar unwilling. SOCRATES: First, I must unrstan what you man. For, as things stan, I o not. What is avantagous for th strongr, you say, is just. What on arth o you man, Thrasymahus? Surly you o not man somthing lik this: Polyamas, th panratist, 16 is strongr than w ar. Bf is avantagous for his oy. So, this foo is also oth avantagous an just for us who ar wakr than h? THRASYMACHUS: You isgust m, Sorats. You intrprt my aount in th way that os it th most vil. SOCRATES: That s not it at all, my vry goo man; I only want you to mak your maning larr. THRASYMACHUS: Don t you know, thn, that som itis ar rul y a tyranny, som y a moray, an som y an aristoray? SOCRATES: Of ours I o. THRASYMACHUS: An that what is strongr in ah ity is th ruling lmnt? SOCRATES: Crtainly. THRASYMACHUS: An ah typ of rul maks laws that ar avantagous for itslf: moray maks morati ons, tyranny tyrannial ons, an so on with th othrs. An y so lgislating, ah lars that what is just for its sujts is what is avantagous for itslf th rulr an it punishs anyon who viats from this as lawlss an unjust. That, Sorats, is what I say justi is, th sam in all itis: what is avantagous for th stalish rul. Sin th stalish rul is surly strongr, anyon who os th rational alulation orrtly will onlu that th just is th sam vrywhr what is avantagous for th strongr. SOCRATES: Now I s what you man. Whthr it is tru or not, I will try to fin out. But you yourslf hav answr that what is just is what is avantagous, Thrasymahus, whras you fora m to answr that. Tru, you hav a for th strongr to it. THRASYMACHUS: An I suppos you think that is an insignifiant aition. SOCRATES: It isn t lar yt whthr it is signifiant. What is lar is that w must invstigat whthr or not it is tru. I agr that what is just is 339a 16 S Glossary of Trms s.v. panration. 1
Book 1 340a somthing avantagous. But you a for th strongr. I o not know aout that. W will hav to look into it. THRASYMACHUS: Go aha an look. SOCRATES: That is just what I am going to o. Tll m, thn, you also laim, on t you, that it is just to oy th rulrs? THRASYMACHUS: I o. SOCRATES: An ar th rulrs in ah ity infallil, or ar thy lial to rror? THRASYMACHUS: No out, thy ar lial to rror. SOCRATES: So, whn thy attmpt to mak laws, thy mak som orrtly, othrs inorrtly? THRASYMACHUS: I suppos so. SOCRATES: An a law is orrt if it prsris what is avantagous for th rulrs thmslvs, an inorrt if it prsris what is isavantagous for thm? Is that what you man? THRASYMACHUS: It is. SOCRATES: An whatvr laws th rulrs mak must oy y thir sujts, an that is what is just? THRASYMACHUS: Of ours. SOCRATES: Aoring to your aount, thn, it isn t only just to o what is avantagous for th strongr, ut also th opposit: what is not avantagous. THRASYMACHUS: What is that you ar saying? SOCRATES: Th sam as you, I think. But lt s xamin it mor losly. Havn t w agr that th rulrs ar somtims in rror as to what is st for thmslvs whn thy giv orrs to thir sujts, an yt that it is just for thir sujts to o whatvr thir rulrs orr? Wasn t that agr? THRASYMACHUS: I suppos so. SOCRATES: You will also hav to suppos, thn, that you hav agr that it is just to o what is isavantagous for th rulrs an thos who ar strongr, whnvr thy unintntionally orr what is a for thmslvs. But you say, too, that it is just for th othrs to oy th orrs th rulrs gav. You ar vry wis, Thrasymahus, ut osn t it nssarily follow that it is just to o th opposit of what you sai, sin th wakr ar thn orr to o what is isavantagous for th strongr? POLEMARCHUS: By Zus, Sorats, that s asolutly lar. An Clitophon intrrupt: 16
Examination of Thrasymahus Of ours it is, if you ar to his witnss, at any rat. POLEMARCHUS: Who ns a witnss? Thrasymahus himslf agrs that th rulrs somtims issu orrs that ar a for thm, an that it is just for th othrs to oy thm. CLITOPHON: That, Polmarhus, is aus Thrasymahus maintain that it is just to oy th orrs of th rulrs. POLEMARCHUS: Ys, Clitophon, an h also maintain that what is avantagous for th strongr is just. An having maintain oth prinipls, h wnt on to agr that th strongr somtims orr th wakr, who ar sujt to thm, to o things that ar isavantagous for th strongr thmslvs. From ths agrmnts it follows that what is avantagous for th strongr is no mor just than what is not avantagous. CLITOPHON: But what h mant y what is avantagous for th strongr is what th strongr livs to avantagous for him. That is what h maintain th wakr must o, an that is what h maintain is what is just. POLEMARCHUS: But it is not what h sai. SOCRATES: It maks no iffrn, Polmarhus. If Thrasymahus wants to put it that way now, lt s apt it. But tll m, Thrasymahus, is that what you intn to say, that what is just is what th strongr livs to avantagous for him, whthr it is in fat avantagous for him or not? Is that what w ar to say you man? THRASYMACHUS: Not at all. Do you think I woul all somon who is in rror strongr at th vry momnt h rrs? SOCRATES: I i think you mant that, whn you agr that th rulrs ar not infallil ut somtims mak rrors. THRASYMACHUS: That is aus you ar a quilr in argumnts, Sorats. I man, whn somon maks an rror in th tratmnt of patints, o you all him a otor in virtu of th fat that h ma that vry rror? Or, whn somon maks an rror in alulating, o you all him an aountant in virtu of th fat that h ma that vry rror in alulation? I think w xprss ourslvs in wors that, takn litrally, o say that a otor is in rror, or an aountant, or a grammarian. But ah of ths, to th xtnt that h is what w all him, nvr maks rrors, so that, aoring to th pris aount (an you ar a stiklr for pris aounts), no raftsman vr maks rrors. It is whn his knowlg fails him that h maks an rror, an, in virtu of th fat that h ma that rror, h is no raftsman. No raftsman, wis man, or rulr maks an rror at th momnt whn h is ruling, vn though vryon will say that a physiian or a rulr maks rrors. It is in this loos way that you must also tak th answr I gav just now. But th most pris answr is this: a rulr, 17
Book 1 341a to th xtnt that h is a rulr, nvr maks rrors an unrringly rs what is st for himslf, an that is what his sujt must o. Thus, as I sai from th first, it is just to o what is avantagous for th strongr. SOCRATES: Wll, Thrasymahus, so you think I quil, o you? THRASYMACHUS: Ys, I o. SOCRATES: An you think that I ask th qustions I i in a prmitat attmpt to o you vil in th argumnt? THRASYMACHUS: I am rtain of it. But it won t o you any goo. You will nvr al to o m vil y ovrt mans, an without thm, you will nvr al to ovrpowr m y argumnt. SOCRATES: Blss you, Thrasymahus; I woul not so muh as try! But to prvnt this sort of onfusion from happning to us again, woul you fin whthr you man th rulr an strongr in th orinary sns or in what you wr just now alling th pris sns, whn you say that it is just for th wakr to o what is avantagous for him, sin h is th strongr? THRASYMACHUS: I man th rulr in th most pris sns. Now o that vil, if you an, an prati your quiling on it I ask no favors. But you will fin thr is nothing you an o. SOCRATES: Do you think that I am razy nough to try to shav a lion 17 an quil with Thrasymahus? THRASYMACHUS: Wll, you rtainly tri just now, although you wr a goo-for-nothing at it, too! SOCRATES: That s nough of that! Tll m: is a otor in th pris sns, th on you mntion for a monymakr or somon who trats th sik? Tll m aout th on who is rally a otor. THRASYMACHUS: Somon who trats th sik. SOCRATES: What aout a ship s aptain? Is th tru aptain a rulr of sailors, or a sailor? THRASYMACHUS: A rulr of sailors. SOCRATES: In othr wors, w shoul not tak any aount of th fat that h sails in a ship, an h shoul not all a sailor for that rason. For it is not aus h is sailing that h is all a ship s aptain, ut aus of th raft h pratis an his rul ovr sailors? THRASYMACHUS: Tru. SOCRATES: An is thr somthing that is avantagous for ah of ths? 18 17 Provrial haratrization of an almost impossil task. 18 I.., for sailors an ois. 18
Examination of Thrasymahus THRASYMACHUS: Crtainly. SOCRATES: An isn t it also th as that th natural aim of th raft is to onsir an provi what is avantagous for ah? THRASYMACHUS: Ys, that is its aim. SOCRATES: An is anything avantagous for ah of th rafts thmslvs sis ing as prft as possil? THRASYMACHUS: How o you man? SOCRATES: It is lik this: suppos you ask m whthr it is satisfatory for a oy to a oy, or whthr it ns somthing ls. I woul answr, Of ours it ns somthing. In fat, that is why th raft of miin has n isovr aus a oy is fiint an it is not satisfatory for it to lik that. 19 To provi what is avantagous, that is what th raft was vlop for. Do you think I am spaking orrtly in saying this, or not? THRASYMACHUS: Corrtly. SOCRATES: What aout miin itslf? Is it fiint? Dos a raft n som furthr virtu, as th ys ar in n of sight an th ars of haring, so that anothr raft is n to onsir an provi what is avantagous for thm? 20 Dos a raft hav som similar fiiny itslf, so that ah raft ns anothr to onsir what is avantagous for it? An os th raft that os th onsiring n still anothr, an so on without n? Or os ah onsir y itslf what is avantagous for it? Dos it n nithr itslf nor anothr raft to onsir what in light of its own fiiny is avantagous for it? In, is thr no fiiny or rror in any raft? An is it inappropriat for any raft to onsir what is avantagous for anything sis that with whih it als? An sin it is itslf orrt, is it without fault or impurity so long as it is wholly an prisly th raft it is? Consir this with that prision of languag you mntion. Is it so or not? THRASYMACHUS: It appars to so. SOCRATES: Dosn t it follow that miin os not onsir what is avantagous for miin, ut for th oy? THRASYMACHUS: Ys. SOCRATES: An hors ring os not onsir what is avantagous for hors ring, ut for horss? In, no othr raft onsirs what is 342a 19 S 60813 63. 20 Sight is th virtu or xlln of th ys. Without it, th ys annot ahiv what is avantagous to thm: namly, sight. But Sorats assums throughout Book 1 that virtus ar typs of raft (s 332). Hn h an onlu that th ys n a furthr raft in orr to ahiv what is avantagous to thm. 19
Book 1 avantagous for itslf sin it has no furthr ns ut what is avantagous for that with whih it als? THRASYMACHUS: Apparntly so. SOCRATES: Now surly, Thrasymahus, th various rafts rul ovr an ar strongr than that with whih thy al? H gav in at this point as wll, vry rlutantly. SOCRATES: So no kin of knowlg onsirs or njoins what is avantagous for itslf, ut what is avantagous for th wakr, whih is sujt to it. H finally agr to this too, although h tri to fight it. Whn h ha agr, howvr, I sai: 343a Surly thn, no otor, to th xtnt that h is a otor, onsirs or njoins what is avantagous for himslf, ut what is avantagous for his patint? For w agr that a otor, in th pris sns, is a rulr of ois, not a monymakr. Isn t that what w agr? THRASYMACHUS: Ys. SOCRATES: So a ship s aptain, in th pris sns, is a rulr of sailors, not a sailor? THRASYMACHUS: That is what w agr. SOCRATES: Dosn t it follow that a ship s aptain an rulr won t onsir an njoin what is avantagous for a aptain, ut what is avantagous for a sailor an his sujt? H rlutantly agr. SOCRATES: So thn, Thrasymahus, no on in any position of rul, to th xtnt that h is a rulr, onsirs or njoins what is avantagous for himslf, ut what is avantagous for his sujt that on whih h pratis his raft. It is to his sujt an what is avantagous an propr for it that h looks, an vrything h says an os, h says an os for it. Whn w rah this point in th argumnt an it was lar to all that his aount of justi ha turn into its opposit, insta of answring, Thrasymahus sai: Tll m, Sorats, o you still hav a wt nurs? SOCRATES: What is that? Shouln t you giving answrs rathr than asking suh things? 20
Examination of Thrasymahus THRASYMACHUS: Baus sh is ltting you run aroun snivling an osn t wip your nos whn you n it, sin it is hr fault that you o not know th iffrn twn shp an shphrs. SOCRATES: What xatly is it I o not know? THRASYMACHUS: You think that shphrs an owhrs onsir what is goo for thir shp an attl, an fattn thm an tak ar of thm with som aim in min othr than what is goo for thir mastr an thmslvs. Morovr, you liv that rulrs in itis tru rulrs, that is think aout thir sujts in a iffrnt way than on os aout shp, an that what thy onsir night an ay is somthing othr than what is avantagous for thmslvs. You ar so far from unrstaning justi an what is just, an injusti an what is unjust, that you o not raliz that justi is rally th goo of anothr, what is avantagous for th strongr an th rulr, an harmful to th on who oys an srvs. Injusti is th opposit, it ruls thos simplmin for that is what thy rally ar just popl, an th ons it ruls o what is avantagous for th othr who is strongr; an thy mak th on thy srv happy, ut thy o not mak thmslvs th last it happy. You must onsir it as follows, Sorats, or you will th most naïv of all: a just man must always gt lss than os an unjust on. First, in thir ontrats with on anothr, whn a just man is partnr to an unjust, you will nvr fin, whn th partnrship ns, that th just on gts mor than th unjust, ut lss. Son, in mattrs rlating to th ity, whn taxs ar to pai, a just man pays mor on an qual amount of proprty, an unjust on lss; ut whn th ity is giving out rfuns, a just man gts nothing whil an unjust on maks a larg profit. Finally, whn ah of thm hols politial offi, a just prson vn if h is not pnaliz in othr ways fins that his privat affairs triorat mor aus h has to nglt thm, that h gains no avantag from th puli purs aus of his justi, an that h is hat y his rlativs an aquaintans aus h is unwilling to o thm an unjust favor. Th opposit is tru of an unjust man in vry rspt. I man, of ours, th prson I sri for: th man of grat powr who os ttr 21 than vryon ls. H is th on you shoul onsir if you want to figur out how muh mor avantagous it is for th iniviual to unjust than just. You will unrstan this most asily if you turn your thoughts to injusti of th most omplt sort, th sort that maks thos who o injusti happist, an thos who suffr it thos who ar unwilling to o injusti most wrth. Th sort I man is tyranny, aus it uss oth ovrt mans an for to appropriat th proprty of othrs whthr it is sar or sular, puli or privat not littl y littl, ut all at on. If 344a 21 S Glossary of Trms s.v. o ttr. 21
Book 1 34a somon ommits a part of this sort of injusti an gts aught, h is punish an gratly rproah tmpl rors, 22 kinapprs, housrakrs, rors, an thivs ar what ths partly unjust popl ar all whn thy ommit thos harms. Whn somon appropriats th possssions of th itizns, on th othr han, an thn kinaps an nslavs th possssors as wll, insta of ths shamful nams h is all happy an lss: not only y th itizns thmslvs, ut vn y all who larn that h has ommitt th whol of injusti. For it is not th far of oing injusti, ut of suffring it, that liits th rproahs of thos who rvil injusti. So you s, Sorats, injusti, if it is on a larg nough sal, is strongr, frr, an mor mastrful than justi. An, as I sai from th ginning, justi is what is avantagous for th strongr, whil injusti is profital an avantagous for onslf. Having, lik a ath attnant, mpti this grat floo of wors into our ars all at on, Thrasymahus was thinking of laving. But thos prsnt wouln t lt him. Thy ma him stay an giv an aount of what h ha sai. An I myslf was partiularly insistnt: You ar marvlous, Thrasymahus; aftr hurling suh a sph at us, you surly annot thinking of laving for you hav aquatly instrut us or larn yourslf whthr you ar right or not. Or o you think it is a trivial mattr you ar trying to trmin, an not rathr a way of lif th on that woul mak living lif that way most profital for ah of us? THRASYMACHUS: Do you man that I o not think it is a srious mattr? SOCRATES: Eithr that, or you ar nothing for us an so ar not worri aout whthr w will liv ttr or wors livs aus of our ignoran of what you laim to know. No, a goo fllow an show som willingnss to tah us you won t o aly for yourslf if you hlp a group as larg as ours. For my own part, I will tll you that I am not prsua. I o not liv that injusti is mor profital than justi, not vn if you shoul giv it full sop to o what it wants. Suppos, my goo fllow, that thr is an unjust prson, an suppos h os hav th powr to o injusti, whthr y ovrt mans or opn warfar; nonthlss, h os not prsua m that injusti is mor profital than justi. Prhaps somon hr sis myslf fls th sam as I o. So, lss though you ar, you ar going to hav to fully prsua us that w ar wrong to valu justi mor highly than injusti in lirating. 22 Th tmpls srv as puli trasuris, so that a tmpl ror is th quivalnt of a prsnt-ay ank ror. 22
Examination of Thrasymahus THRASYMACHUS: An how am I to prsua you? If you ar not prsua y what I sai just now, what mor an I o? Am I to tak my argumnt an pour it into your vry soul? SOCRATES: No, y Zus, o not o that! But first, stik to what you hav sai, or, if you hang your position, o it opnly an o not try to iv us. You s, Thrasymahus, having fin th tru otor to ontinu xamining th things you sai for you i not onsir it nssary to maintain th sam lvl of xatnss whn you latr turn to th tru shphr. You o not think a shphr to th xtnt that h is a shphr fattns shp with th aim of oing what is st for thm. But you think that, lik a gust aout to ntrtain at a fast, his aim is to at wll or to mak a futur sal as if h wr a monymakr rathr than a shphr. But of ours, th only onrn of th raft of shphring is to provi what is st for that with whih it als, sin it itslf is aquatly provi with all it ns to at its st, as w know, whn it os not fall short in any way of ing th raft of shphring. That is why I, at any rat, thought it nssary for us to agr for 23 that vry kin of rul to th xtnt that it is a kin of rul os not sk anything othr than what is st for th thing it ruls an ars for, an this is tru oth in politial an in privat rul. But o you think that thos who rul itis th ons who ar truly rulrs rul willingly? THRASYMACHUS: I o not think it, y Zus, I know it. SOCRATES: But, Thrasymahus, on t you raliz that in othr kins of rul thr is no willing rulr? On th ontrary, thy man to pai on th assumption that thir ruling will nfit not thmslvs, ut thir sujts. For tll m, on t w say that ah raft iffrs from vry othr in what it is apal of oing? Blss though you ar, plas on t answr ontrary to your lif, so that w an om to som finit onlusion. THRASYMACHUS: Ys, that is what iffrntiats thm. SOCRATES: An osn t ah raft provi us with a partiular nfit, iffrnt from th othrs? For xampl, miin provis us with halth, aptainy with safty at sa, an so on with th othrs? THRASYMACHUS: Crtainly. SOCRATES: An osn t wag-arning provi us with wags, sin that is what it is apal of oing? Or woul you all miin th sam raft as aptainy? In, if you want to fin mattrs prisly, as you propos, vn if somon who is a ship s aptain oms halthy aus what is avantagous for him is sailing on th sa, you woul not for that rason all what h os miin, woul you? 346a 23 S 341 342 aov. 23
Book 1 THRASYMACHUS: Of ours not. SOCRATES: Nor woul you all wag-arning miin, vn if somon oms halthy whil arning wags? THRASYMACHUS: Of ours not. SOCRATES: Nor woul you all miin wag-arning, vn if somon arns pay whil haling? THRASYMACHUS: No. SOCRATES: W ar agr thn, arn t w, that ah raft rings its own spial nfit? THRASYMACHUS: Ys, w ar. SOCRATES: So whatvr nfit all raftsmn jointly riv must larly riv from thir joint prati of som aitional raft that is th sam for ah of thm. THRASYMACHUS: It sms so. SOCRATES: An w say that th aitional raft in qustion, whih nfits th raftsmn y arning thm wags, is th raft of wag-arning? H rlutantly agr. 347a SOCRATES: Thn this vry nfit, riving wags, is not provi to ah of thm y his own raft. On th ontrary, if w ar to xamin th mattr prisly, miin provis halth an wag-arning provis a wag; hous-uiling provis a hous, an wag-arning, whih aompanis it, provis a wag; an so on with th othr rafts. Eah of thm os its own work an nfits that with whih it als. So, wags asi, is thr any nfit that raftsmn gt from thir raft? THRASYMACHUS: Apparntly not. SOCRATES: But h still provis a nfit, vn whn h works for nothing? THRASYMACHUS: Ys, I think h os. SOCRATES: Thn, it is lar now, Thrasymahus, that no typ of raft or rul provis what is nfiial for itslf; ut, as w hav n saying for som tim, it provis an njoins what is nfiial for its sujt, an aims at what is avantagous for it th wakr, not th strongr. That is why I sai just now, my ar Thrasymahus, that no on hooss to rul voluntarily an tak othr popl s trouls in han an straightn thm out, ut ah asks for wags. You s, anyon who is going to prati his typ of raft wll nvr os or njoins what is st for himslf at last not whn h is ating as his raft prsris ut what is st for his sujt. It 24
Examination of Thrasymahus is aus of this, it sms, that wags must provi to a prson if h is going to willing to rul, whthr thy ar in th form of mony or honor or a pnalty if h rfuss. GLAUCON: What o you man, Sorats? I am familiar with th first two kins of wags, ut I o not unrstan what pnalty you man, or how you an all it a wag. SOCRATES: Thn you o not unrstan th sort of wags for whih th st popl rul, whn thy ar willing to rul. Don t you know that thos who lov honor an thos who lov mony ar spis, an rightly so? GLAUCON: I o. SOCRATES: Wll, thn, that is why goo popl won t willing to rul for th sak of mony or honor. You s, if thy ar pai wags opnly for ruling, thy will all hirlings, an if thy tak thm ovrtly as th fruits of thir rul, thy will all thivs. On th othr han, thy won t rul for th sak of honor ithr, sin thy ar not amitious honorlovrs. So, if thy ar going to willing to rul, som ompulsion or punishmnt must rought to ar on thm that is proaly why wanting to rul whn on os not hav to is thought to shamful. Now, th gratst punishmnt for ing unwilling to rul is ing rul y somon wors than onslf. An I think it is far of that that maks goo popl rul whn thy o rul. Thy approah ruling, not as though thy wr going to o somthing goo or as though thy wr going to njoy thmslvs in it, ut as somthing nssary, sin it annot ntrust to anyon ttr than or vn as goo as thmslvs. In a ity of goo mn, if it am into ing, th itizns woul fight in orr not to rul, just as thy now o in orr to rul. Thr it woul quit lar that anyon who is rally an truly a rulr os not naturally sk what is avantagous for himslf, ut what is so for his sujt. As a rsult, anyon with any sns woul prfr to nfit y anothr than to go to th troul of nfiting him. So I annot at all agr with Thrasymahus that justi is what is avantagous for th strongr. But w will look furthr into that anothr tim. What Thrasymahus is now saying that th lif of an unjust prson is ttr than that of a just on sms to of far gratr importan. Whih lif woul you hoos, Glauon? An whih of our viws o you think is losr to th truth? GLAUCON: I think th lif of a just prson is mor profital. SOCRATES: Di you har all th goo things Thrasymahus attriut a momnt ago to th unjust man? GLAUCON: I i, ut I am not prsua. SOCRATES: Thn o you want us to prsua him, if w an fin a way, that what h says is not tru? 348a 2
Book 1 GLAUCON: Of ours I o. SOCRATES: Wll, if w oppos him with a sph paralll to his sph numrating in turn th many goo things that om from ing just, an h rplis, an thn w o, w will hav to ount an masur th goo things mntion on ah si, an w will n a jury to i th as. But if, on th othr han, w invstigat th qustion, as w hav n oing, y sking agrmnt with ah othr, w ourslvs an oth jury an avoats at on. GLAUCON: Crtainly. SOCRATES: Thn whih approah o you prfr? GLAUCON: Th son. SOCRATES: Com on thn, Thrasymahus, answr us from th ginning. You say, on t you, that omplt injusti is mor profital than omplt justi? THRASYMACHUS: I rtainly hav sai that. An I hav tol you why. SOCRATES: Wll, thn, what o you say aout this? Do you all on of th two a virtu an th othr a vi? THRASYMACHUS: Of ours. SOCRATES: That is to say, you all justi a virtu an injusti a vi? THRASYMACHUS: Is that likly, swtst on, whn I say that injusti is profital an justi is not? SOCRATES: Thn what xatly o you say? THRASYMACHUS: Th opposit. SOCRATES: That justi is a vi? THRASYMACHUS: No, just vry nol naivté. 24 SOCRATES: So you all injusti viousnss? THRASYMACHUS: No, I all it ing prunt. SOCRATES: Do you also onsir unjust popl to wis an goo, Thrasymahus? THRASYMACHUS: Ys, if thy o omplt injusti an an ring itis an whol nations unr thir powr. Prhaps, you thought I mant pikpokts? Not that suh rims arn t also profital, if thy ar not foun out. But thy ar not worth isussing y omparison to what I sri. 26 24 Euêthia, kakoêthia: Thrasymahus uss uêthia in th a sns, to man stupiity. Sorats taks him to man it in th goo sns of ing straightforwar, an so ontrasts it with kakoêthia viousnss. S 4001.