PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION OF WEST VIRGINIA CHARLESTON * * * * * * * * * Kanawha County Health Dept and * Case No. Bureau for Public Health Safe * 0-0-W-C Drinking Water Compliance and * Enforcement * v. * County Water Systems, Inc. * * * * * * * * * * * Case No. County Water Systems, Inc. * 0-0-W-X * * * * * * * * * HEARING TRANSCRIPT BEFORE: RONNIE Z. MCCANN, Administrative Law Judge HEARING: Friday, June, 00 :0 a.m. LOCATION: PSC Howard M. Cunningham Hearing Room 0 Brooks Street Charleston WV WITNESSES: Don Wong, Dempsey Petry, Robin Scruggs, Wanda Pettry Reporter: Autumn Furby-Pritt Any reproduction of this transcript is prohibited without authorization by the certifying agency.
0 0 A P P E A R A N C E S MEYISHI BLAIR, ESQUIRE P.O. Box Charleston, WV Counsel for the PSC TRAVIS E. ELLISON, III, ESQUIRE John R. Mitchell, L.C. Law Office P.O. Box 0 Berkeley Street Charleston, WV Counsel for County Water Systems, Inc.
0 0 INDEX TO WITNESSES DISCUSSION AMONG PARTIES - WITNESS: Dempsey Petry STATEMENT by Dempsey Petry - CROSS EXAMINATION by Attorney Blair - EXAMINATION by Judge McCann 0 WITNESS: Robin Scruggs STATEMENT by Robin Scruggs - CROSS EXAMINATION by Attorney Blair EXAMINATION by Judge McCann CROSS EXAMINATION by Attorney Ellison RECROSS EXAMINATION by Attorney Blair DISCUSSION AMONG PARTIES
0 0 INDEX TO WITNESSES (continued) WITNESS: Wanda Pettry STATEMENT by Wanda Pettry CROSS EXAMINATION by Attorney Ellison CROSS EXAMINATION by Attorney Blair DISCUSSION AMONG PARTIES - CERTIFICATE
E X H I B I T S Number Description Staff Page Offered 0 One Letter to Mr. and Mrs. Dempsey Petry Staff Two Letter to Mr. and Mrs. Richard Scruggs Staff Three Letter to Mr. and Mrs. Jim Petry 0
P R O C E E D I N G S -------------------------------------------------------- JUDGE RONNIE MCCANN: We have two cases, case number 0 0 0-0-W-C and case number 0-0-W-X. The first case, 0-0, is a complaint filed by the Kanawha County Health Department in the West Virginia Department of Health and Human Resources against County Water Systems, Inc., a corporation and public water utility. The relief essentially sought in that case is for the Commission to initiate a proceeding against County Water Systems to have it placed in receivership. And case number 0-0- W-X is a petition filed by County Water Systems seeking permission from the Commission to discontinue providing the service to its five customers, is how many customers it has according to the pleadings. First, is the Kanawha County Health Department present today? I know that there s no legal counsel. Could someone from the Health Department identify themselves? Is there anyone from the Health Department? MR. WONG: I don t think he s here. Okay. What, from the Department of
0 Health and Human Resources? MR. WONG: Yes. Okay. So just give your names. MR. WONG: I m Don Wong. I m the assistant manager for compliance and enforcement for safe drinking water at the Bureau for Public Health. Are there others with you? MR. WONG: Yes, there are. Just identify the ones with you. MR. WONG: 0 Okay. This is my supervisor, Bob Hart, and this is the district office engineer, --- MR. COBB: Dave Cobb. MR. WONG: --- Dave Cobb. I m sorry. Okay. And as I understand it, you all are appearing today without legal counsel; is that
correct? 0 0 MR. WONG: That s correct. And as I stated off the record, if any of you may give testimony, it ll be questioned by other attorneys, but you will not be able to participate as a party without an attorney. And that was spelled out in each of the Orders that I issued in this matter, that corporations or any entity other than an individual has to appear with an attorney before the Commission. ATTORNEY BLAIR: Your Honor, just for a point of clarification, if the Complainant is not represented by Counsel, as they are required under the law, according to the Commission s rules ---? And do we have a valid complaint against Mr. Hastings? It would appear that the only matter that we have before us would be his petition to abandon the system. Well, I would --- well, let s first identify Commission Staff and then I ll get back to you. ATTORNEY BLAIR: May it please the Deputy Chief Administrative Law Judge, my name is Meyishi Blair. I m
here today representing the Commission Staff. Present 0 0 with me in today s proceeding is Ms. Karen Buckley of the Commission s Water and Wastewater Division. Also present with me in today s proceeding is Mr. David Holley of the Commission s Engineering Division. For purposes of the record, my mailing address is Post Office Box, Charleston, West Virginia. My telephone number is 0-0. Thank you. Okay. And the County Water Systems? ATTORNEY ELLISON: Your Honor, my name is Travis Ellison. I m an attorney with John Mitchell s office, and I m here representing Paul Hastings, who is here present. And he is the owner of County Water Systems? ATTORNEY ELLISON: Yes. Okay. I think we have some customers of County Water Systems. Would each of you, one at a time, give your names for the reporter? MR. PETRY: My name is Dempsey Petry.
0 0 Can you spell your name? MR. PETRY: Sir? Spell your name. MR. PETRY: D-E-M-P-S-E-Y, W., P-E-T-R-Y. Okay. MS. PETRY: Frances Petry, and I spell my name F-R-A-N-C-E-S, P-E-T-R-Y. MS. PETTRY: Wanda Pettry, and it s W-A-N-D-A, P-E-T-T-R-Y. Thank you. MS. SCRUGGS: My name is Robin Scruggs, R-O-B-I-N, S-C-R-U-G-G-S. So we ve got Petrys with one T and Pettrys with two Ts? MR. PETRY: Yes. 0
Okay. MR. PETRY: I spell mine with one and he spells his with two. 0 0 And I m originally from Lincoln County and the most common name there is Adkins and some people spell it with a D and some with a T, but they re all related to each other. I just want to note that the June th Order that scheduled both these cases for today s hearing date, I granted that a copy of it be sent, I guess, to all the customers. And I m just going to note that in my case file, I have United States certified mail domestic return receipt cards showing that the June th, 00 Order was served on Dempsey Petry. Was it Linda Scruggs? MS. SCRUGGS: It was supposed to have been William Scruggs, --- Okay. MS. SCRUGGS: --- not Richard or Linda. Okay. That particular article was
addressed to Richard Scruggs, son of Linda Scruggs, --- MS. SCRUGGS: Yes. --- but you are the customer? MS. SCRUGGS: Yes. It should be under William and Robin Scruggs. 0 0 Okay. And Paul Hastings, Charles --- I can t read the last name. It looks like it starts with a J. MR. JORDAN: Jordan. Jordan. Charles Jordan, Joe Combs (phonetic), and then to Wanda Pettry. She actually signed for James Henshaw (phonetic), and then the actual parties themselves also received those for today s hearing. Now, Commission Staff was inquiring earlier of whether or not we have two cases to go forward or one. I believe that that is a decision that needs to be made in a recommended decision. My inclination is to have the hearing. If parties want to testify on behalf
0 0 of County Water Systems, I will permit them to do so. Or not County Water, the Health Department, though we actually have two, the Kanawha County Health Department --- and apparently no one is here on their behalf, and the State Health Department, we have three individuals, one or more of them may choose to testify. They would not be permitted to otherwise participate in the hearing, but I would hear their testimony if they choose to present it. And then I would decide in a recommended decision whether the complaint itself should be dismissed, but I don t feel inclined to just dismiss it for the reason that they did not appear with legal counsel. I don t believe that would be consistent with what I have done in the past. I m not sure what other Judges have done or whether the Commission has made a ruling in those instances, but I think I have proceeded with complaint cases when the Complainant was a corporation or a government entity unrepresented by legal counsel. ATTORNEY BLAIR: Your Honor, one clarification. Will they be permitted to testify if someone calls them or how are we going to proceed procedurally? I would permit them to testify if they
want to. 0 0 ATTORNEY BLAIR: So you would be calling them? I would ask if anyone wants to speak, to give testimony on behalf of the Health Department. I don t know if anyone does. ATTORNEY BLAIR: Thank you. I would be permitting that, but giving testimony would be all that I would permit. And I believe that that is consistent with how I have conducted hearings in the past since I ve been working here. And if you think that it s improper, then you certainly have the right to challenge that, but I think it should be a ruling in a recommended decision, rather than not proceeding with the hearing today. ATTORNEY BLAIR: I wasn t suggesting not proceeding with the hearing. I was suggesting that since the Complainants were not here, and if I could further explain that? Okay.
0 ATTORNEY BLAIR: I did not expand on that. Okay. ATTORNEY BLAIR: The Staff filed its recommendation concerning the complaint case and also concerning the request of Mr. Hastings to be allowed to abandon the system. We ve heard nothing from anybody, so the assumption in my mind is that everyone is in agreement with Staff s recommendation, having heard nothing. The fact that the Bureau for Public Health appeared today without counsel, being advised that they are to appear with counsel, still further leads me to believe that they re not in opposition to the position that s been advanced by Commission Staff. Therefore, since no one has complained about the position advanced by the Commission Staff, the Bureau for Public Health did not appear with counsel. The other Complainant did not 0 appear at all. It would appear in Staff s mind that the complaint case is undisputed, and that we would move forward with the case concerning the request to abandon service. If the Counsel for Mr. Hastings poses or has no objection to the Staff s recommendation, then it would appear to Staff that we are all in agreement. I ve not
0 0 heard anything, again, from either the Bureau for Public Health or the other Complainant or even Mr. Hastings or any of the customers, for that matter, that they are opposed to Staff s recommendation. If you believe --- and Staff certainly will accept your ruling concerning proceeding on the matter, but if that is your intention to go forward with the matter, we would ask the Judge if we could go off the record to poll the parties here or their representatives, to see exactly where everyone stands. Well, first, let s see where the County Health Department stands formally. What is your position on this? ATTORNEY ELLISON: Judge, we re in agreement with Ms. Blair. And that was --- our understanding of today s proceedings was to go forward with the abandonment and we are in agreement. And regarding the calling of witnesses, I don t see how they could call witnesses without an attorney being present to question them. I don t think it would be fair for them to just basically get up there and just speak without any type of direction at all. But we are in agreement with Ms. Blair.
You know, I have lots of different 0 0 kinds of hearings probably where this comes up. It never comes up often, but where it comes up occasionally that I can recall involves motor carriers and sometimes public service districts. And a lot of times, you know, some very small public service district will appear at a hearing without counsel. And sometimes a motor carrier, even though they re incorporated, they re still just a one-person operation and sometimes they will appear at a hearing unrepresented. And I m not stating that I m 00- percent sure that I have been correct in what I ve done in the past, but I know that in the past I have permitted people to give testimony, even though they are the moving party or the defending party. And for example, had your client not hired legal counsel, I would have treated him, you know, that way. I would have permitted him to say whatever he wanted to say as testimony and be crossexamined by other attorneys, but I would not have permitted him, since it s a corporation, to ask questions. If he were a sole proprietorship, I would permit him to ask questions. Now, it may be moot, however. Let s go off the record at this time. OFF RECORD DISCUSSION
0 0 We ve had an off-the-record discussion about several issues procedurally, and it appears from discussing with the persons who are here representing the Department of --- well, the State Department of Health, that they may wish to appear at a hearing at a later date with legal counsel or they may not, but they want to confer with legal counsel before making that decision. And Commission Staff has indicated that in order to try to bring this case to an amicable resolution and to have time to schedule another hearing when the Health Department can be represented by Counsel, that Staff would file a motion to extend the decision due date in this consolidated matter. However, we do have several of the customers here today, and what I m going to do is permit them to give testimony and be questioned by the attorneys present. And then, if we have a subsequent hearing, those customers certainly may attend if they want to. They would have the right to, but they would not have to unless they were subpoenaed by one of the parties, which would in particular be from the Health Department if the attorney for the Health Department wishes to cross-examine. Any of the attorneys, they would have the right to subpoena, but I would be giving the customers the option of not attending the next
hearing if they chose not to, and let them go ahead and give their testimony today. And I believe that that is 0 0 probably all we should do today, and then let the parties try to get together on when we can have another hearing and when Counsel can be here. And so at this time --- well, Mr. Petry? MR. PETRY: Yes. Would you like to come forward and make a statement? MR. PETRY: I would. ------------------------------------------------------ DEMPSEY PETRY, HAVING FIRST BEEN DULY SWORN, TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: ------------------------------------------------------ Okay. And just again, state your name for clarification. A. My name is Dempsey W. Petry. Just make any statement that you think is of interest to the Public Service Commission regarding your water system, and then the attorneys may want to ask
you other questions. 0 0 0 A. When we was down here before on a hearing about the water, Paul Hastings got an increase of $ a month --- from $0 a month to $ a month. He was supposed to paint the tank and stuff and he hasn t done it. Now, he s got other water customers on this line that he didn t tell about today. The Harmar (phonetic) Company up there has five employees. They get their water from the same system that we do. There is four guards that use the buildings up there. They get the water from the same system. Now, Paul Hastings does not pay a power bill on that water pump up there, and he don t take care of the pump like he s supposed to. And the only time you get chlorine in that water is when some inspector is coming there. Now, yesterday, I believe it was, the Health Department was up there and took a sample. The day before, he was up there. That s when ---. He? A. Paul Hastings. Okay. A. That s when the chlorine come in through the water. Half the time you got it and half the time you
0 0 don t. And half the time you have pressure on your line and half the time you don t. Paul was lax in his work to take care of the place up there. And even --- I used to cut grass up around there, and the pump house was covered up with trees growed up around it. He don t look after nothing. But he got his raise to $ a month and he was supposed to do all this and have the extra pump up there and everything, and he ain t got nothing yet. Now, anybody want to ask me a question about it? ATTORNEY BLAIR: Judge, you will proceed in the usual order? The Defendant --- I mean, how are you going to proceed? Do you have questions? ATTORNEY ELLISON: We don t have any questions. Does Staff have questions? ATTORNEY BLAIR: Yes. I have quite a few. CROSS EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY BLAIR: Q. Mr. Dempsey --- I m sorry, Mr. Petry, you re an actual customer of the system?
A. Oh, I ve been there since --- I believe it was. Q. And are you paying your water bill as it s rendered to you? 0 0 A. Every month, ma am. I got cancelled checks that shows that I pay mine every month. Q. And the current amount that you re paying per month is what? A. $. Q. You stated that --- or I m sorry, you testified that the owner of the system had received a rate increase in order to take care of the deficiencies per the Public Service Commission? A. Yes, ma am. Q. At that time when that rate increase went into effect, how many customers were being provided service by County Water Systems, Inc.? Well, let me ask you this way. A. Just a minute. Let me just study this one minute, please. Q. Okay. A. I believe --- let s see. We ve got five on the map. I believe there was six, because one lady died and she was on it. And also, --- yeah, she was on it for --- from the time --- she spent about two years with her
son because she had cancer, and --- but she went ahead and paid her water bill. ATTORNEY BLAIR: Your Honor, with your permission, I d like to approach the witness, please? Yes, ma am. ATTORNEY BLAIR: Your Honor, what I ve done is I ve 0 0 handed Mr. Petry a copy of a letter dated March the 0th, 00. BY ATTORNEY BLAIR: Q. Mr. Petry, do you recall receiving this letter? It was sent by ---. A. Certified mail? Q. Yes, sir. A. Yes, ma am. Q. And when you received this letter, did you contact the Public Service Commission? A. Uh-uh (no). Q. Okay. Do you recall that a part of the content of this letter states that if you have any ideas or suggestions about the system to contact the Public Service Commission? A. Well, I didn t do it.
0 0 Q. Okay. Well, I m just wanting to verify that you got it and you were aware of that statement in the letter. Do you have any solutions that you would like to offer in today s hearing concerning what should be done with the system? A. Well, we do need a new system up there to help us out with this water. If Paul could do some stuff up there himself that he was supposed to do, it wouldn t happen. But he doesn t do whatever he s supposed to do. Now, this same --- this week he spent over five hours up there at that pumping station. It didn t help the water one bit, but the next day there was two men from the State come up there. Paul was waiting with them and then they went down to one customer s place and got a water sample, but you don t get nothing out of him. He don t tell you nothing or nothing. Q. Mr. Petry, let me back up, please. ATTORNEY BLAIR: Could I have that document marked as Staff s Exhibit Number One, please? It will be so marked. (Staff s Exhibit One marked for identification.) BY ATTORNEY BLAIR:
Q. Mr. Petry, with regard to the quality of water service that you receive, do you consider it to be adequate or inadequate? 0 0 A. It could be took care of, because years before, we didn t have no trouble out of that water up there until Paul took it over. The company took care of it. We could use it for drinking water and purposes. Now, if we have drinking water, we have to go somewhere else to get the drinking water. We use that water for baths and stuff and wash clothes and stuff. Q. So your answer would be that you believe that the water that s been provided by County Water Systems, Inc. is inadequate? A. Right now it is. Q. If the Public Service Commission would raise rates in order to bring the system into compliance, would you be willing to pay more than the $ that you are paying now for water service? A. Ma am, we pay more of a water bill now than people down below us are paying for the water company. Q. I understand that, sir. But I m saying, you are paying $ now. If the Public Service Commission would order Mr. Hastings to do all the things that needs to be done in order to bring this system in compliance, would you be willing to pay more than your current $ per
month that you are paying? A. If it s reasonable. Q. And what would you define as reasonable, sir? 0 0 A. Well, as long you don t raise it up, say $00 a month or something like that, but ---. Q. Would you be willing to pay $0 a month for water service? A. Well, I believe I d be willing to pay, say $ a month. Q. Are you in favor of the system being abandoned, or what are your thoughts about that matter? A. No. I don t think it should be abandoned. We ve been there --- people have lived out there for --- well, I know since, all of us. We ve got a nice community up there, and we take care of it. It s the cleanest little place around there. And I don t think it should be abandoned. I believe it can be took care of if someone would take care of it. Q. Do you know of anyone who would be willing to assume responsibility for the system and take care of the system, including the fact that the Commission has a petition pending for abandonment of the system? A. I don t know of nobody right now. ATTORNEY BLAIR: Thank you. Your Honor, I d like that
to be introduced into evidence, Staff s Exhibit Number One. Any objection? ATTORNEY ELLISON: No objection. 0 0 It s received. I ll note that the last paragraph on the first page of Staff Exhibit Number One indicates that the utilities customers reside in structures that are located on property owned by Penn Virginia Resource Partners and the customers pay rent to the company. A. Yes. Is that true for you? A. Yes, sir. You rent the house you live in? A. Well, no. I have a mobile home parked on it. Okay. So you own the mobile home? A. Yes, sir. But you rent the land?
A. Rent the land. Okay. And it says, additionally, 0 0 utilities supplies water to the coal company s facilities in the area. Is that what you were referring to a while ago about the other people being served? A. Yes, sir. The back of --- if I may go back just a little bit, I believe it was --- oh, it was it was used to be Parvateel (phonetic) Coal Company property. And then it went to U.S. Steel. Well, then Paul Hastings furnished water then. They had a bathhouse and everything there. He furnished water there for his bathhouses and stuff. Well, then the company went out in --- I believe it was. That s when I retired, but they went out of business. And then another company come in, in the meantime, and took over, but they didn t use the bathhouse or nothing. And then this contractor company up there is Harper. He called it Harmar and he has five --- which hisself he has five men working for him and they get their water from the same place. Now, the company has guards that comes in there and uses the bathhouse and stuff in what used to be the company office. And then there s one lab up there, there s a man come in there and he uses that office to gather water samples from the company.
0 0 But the persons that I identified earlier that the Order was sent to, is that --- that would be all of the residential customers, wouldn t it? A. Yes, sir. And then, this water that the coal company uses is for company purposes, whether it s for bathhouse or whatever, it s not for residential uses? A. Yeah. Okay. Well, people are not coming there and loading up water and taking it home with them or anything like that? A. No. Uh-uh (no). Okay. Any other questions of this witness? ATTORNEY BLAIR: No, Your Honor. But I would like to thank Mr. Petry for appearing here today. I really appreciate it. A. You re welcome, ma am. I d be glad to come back.
0 0 0 Okay. And like I said earlier, any of you that come today are --- when we schedule another hearing, I will still direct that you be notified of it, but if you don t want to come, you don t have to unless you receive a subpoena that tells you, you have to come. That s just for your convenience, if you don t need --- you know, don t really want to come on that day, but if you get a subpoena you would have to come back. Okay. Now, you may stand aside. A. Can I step outside and put some money in the ---? Yes. You re finished today as far as I m concerned. A. Well, then I won t come back in. ATTORNEY BLAIR: Mr. Petry, we have free parking, and if you would like to pull your car up on the lot ---? A. I parked on the side of the street over there. I ll just use it. ATTORNEY BLAIR: Okay. A. Thank you. The next customer that wants to make a
statement? ------------------------------------------------------ 0 0 ROBIN SCRUGGS, HAVING FIRST BEEN DULY SWORN, TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: ------------------------------------------------------ Be seated. State your name and then make a statement like Mr. Petry did. A. My name is Robin Scruggs. I have been living in here since. At the time I started dating my husband, who --- the water then had mercury or something in it. It smelled like rotten eggs and I mean, it s gone downhill. I do owe Mr. Hastings a balance of, I think, $ for clothes that have been ruined because I had to dress to go to work, dress business to go to work. My clothes have been bleached. My clothes have iron in them. Once that s done, you can t wear them. He had --- as far as I m concerned, the water has never been taken care of properly. My husband s grandmother lived with us for two years before she passed away. We had no water pressure for a year, none whatsoever. I always called Mr. Hastings on a daily basis regarding this. When you say no pressure, did water come out of the spigots at all?
0 0 A. It dribbled. Yeah. And like I said, she had cancer. She died in our home. So I mean, it was hard giving her a bath. We had to buy bottled water to give her a bath. So in other words, you couldn t run enough water to ---. A. Well, when we did run water in the bathtub, it was brown. It was like iron. The time that you say that there was slack pressure, how long would it take to run three or four inches of water in a bathtub? A. Probably about a half an hour, minutes. Okay. A. I mean, it was pretty bad. Your water would come out, but very slow? A. Right. We even had to go to the spring behind our house to get water to flush the commode. It was that bad. Okay. Anything else you want to say at
this time? A. Just that, I mean, for the amount that we re paying, I mean, he was allowed to raise it from $0 to $ to do what was supposed to have been done to begin 0 0 with. And now they re wanting to raise it again. That s not right. It should have been taken care of like he said he was going to when he raised it the first time. Questions? ATTORNEY ELLISON: No questions. Staff? ATTORNEY BLAIR: Yes, I have some questions. CROSS EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY BLAIR: Q. Mrs. Scruggs, what is your billing address? A. It s HC, Box. ATTORNEY BLAIR: So if I could approach the witness, please? (Indicates yes.) BY ATTORNEY BLAIR:
0 0 Q. I have here a letter, which is directed to Mr. and Mrs. Richard Scruggs? A. Right. And it wasn t supposed to be. Mr. Hastings is aware. He has been made aware that it was supposed to have been Mr. and Mrs. William Scruggs. We are the renters on that lot in which the water ---. Q. Ms. Scruggs, I m not going to argue with you about anything. I m just trying to get clarification. A. Uh-huh (yes). Q. Even though the letter does not state the correct name on it, --- A. Uh-huh (yes). Q. --- you have verified, have you not, that your address is HC, Box, Winifred? A. Correct. Q. Okay. So you did receive this letter? A. Yes. Q. With regard to the content of this letter, did you contact the Public Service Commission and let --- A. Yes, ma am. Q. --- us know ---. A. Yes, ma am. I talked to Mr. Holley. Q. You re the one customer that Staff --- A. Yeah. And he ---. Q. --- pointed ---. Okay. If you would just let
me ask you some questions, --- A. Okay. Q. --- I want the record to be clean on this matter; okay? A. Uh-huh (yes). Q. All right. 0 0 Let me just interject one question. Is there a Richard Scruggs that ---? A. That is my father-in-law. He resides at. Is he also a customer of this system? A. Yes. We all live in the same house but we have different --- a different address. He s disabled, so me and my husband are caring for him. Okay. Proceed. ATTORNEY BLAIR: Thank you, Judge. I just wondered who this was. ATTORNEY BLAIR: Before I forget again, could we have this document be marked as Staff s Exhibit Number Two, please?
0 It will be so marked. (Staff s Exhibit Two marked for identification.) BY ATTORNEY BLAIR: Q. Ms. Scruggs, --- A. Uh-huh (yes). Q. --- now I believe that you stated that you owe the water company a balance. A. Uh-huh (yes). 0 Q. And again, what was that amount that you stated that ---? A. I believe it s $ or $. Q. I ll just round it up to $. And with regard to that outstanding balance, you did testify, did you not, that you were not paying because of recent clothes you alleged were ruined? A. Yes, dress clothes. Q. Okay. Are you aware that under the Commission s rules and regulations, you cannot withhold payment like that to a utility? A. No, ma am. Q. Okay. Well, that is the Commission s policy, and I guess you did not know that. With regard to this system, you are aware, are you not, that the Staff is
proposing that Mr. Hastings be allowed to abandon the system? A. Yes, ma am. Q. Do you have an opinion concerning that? 0 0 A. I would like to see somebody that will take care of the system take care of the system, not somebody that s negligent. Q. So would you be in favor of receivership? Is that what you re saying --- the Commission try to find someone to take over the system? A. I would like to see somebody take over the system. Q. Do you have anyone in mind or do you know of anyone who would be willing to undertake such an endeavor? A. I know somebody that is licensed, has a Class I license, but I don t know if he would be willing to take it over because he s not on the water system. Q. Now, I believe you indicated earlier that you had spoken to Mr. Holley --- A. Uh-huh (yes). Q. --- after you received the letter. Did you indicate this individual to Mr. Holley? A. No, ma am. I didn t, because I didn t know this gentleman had a license.
Q. Would you care to give us the name of this individual now? A. Barry Perdue. Q. And do you have Mr. Perdue s phone number? 0 0 A. No, ma am. I don t. It should be listed under Barry and Theresa Perdue. Q. And where does this individual live? A. Probably about a fourth of a mile away from us. Q. And who provides him with water service, do you know? A. He has a well. Q. He has a well? A. Uh-huh (yes). Q. With regard to this particular system, the Staff recommendation is that Mr. Hastings be allowed to abandon it and that, you know, the customers who are existing on the system look to an alternate source for water service. When Mr. Petry was testifying, I was just trying to get a feel for him if he would be willing to have a rate increase in order for the system to be brought up to compliance with regard to the standards of the Bureau for Public Health. You do understand that if someone else takes over the system, that system will have to be brought up to the Bureau for Public Health standards, do you not? And could you please say yes or no for the
0 record? A. Yes, ma am. Q. And if that is required, then you do also understand that that will require money? A. Right. Q. Under those circumstances, if we can find someone --- and we, being the Public Service Commission --- to take over this system and bring the system up to snuff, up to the standards required for the Bureau for the Public Health, would you be willing to take on an increase in your water rates? A. Yes, ma am, as long as it s not Mr. Hastings. Q. And how much would you, as a customer, be willing to pay? A. I m with Mr. Petry, $. Q. That would be your maximum amount? A. Yes. 0 Q. So basically, your position, if I can summarize it, would be that so long as Mr. Hastings is running the system, you would be unwilling to pay an increase in rates. A. Yes, ma am. Q. But if someone would take over the system, you d be willing to pay as much as $? A. Yes, ma am.
Q. Ms. Scruggs, with regard to the outstanding amount that you owe to the system, --- A. Uh-huh (yes). Q. --- would you be willing to pay that money now that you know that you cannot just simply not pay the bill? 0 0 0 A. Oh, yeah. I will pay it, but I want my clothes replaced. I would like to have my clothes replaced. Q. Well, that s another matter that does not fall within the Commission s --- A. Okay. Q. --- jurisdiction. That s what s known as damages and --- A. Uh-huh (yes). Q. --- we re precluded by law to award that. A. Okay. Q. So if you believe that Mr. Hastings owes you something, you will have to seek redress in a court of competent jurisdiction, but not here. A. Okay. Q. Do you have anything else? I know that you have indicated that you believe that the quality of the water being provided now is inadequate. A. Uh-huh (yes). Q. Do you have anything else that you would like to
0 0 tell the Public Service Commission today that you believe would assist us in perhaps modifying the position that the Staff is currently advocating or that you can offer us assistance with concerning this case? A. Just we need water. We have to have water. If he s allowed to abandon it and nobody takes over, I mean, that is a bad hardship on us because my husband has been there for, years. And I mean, we just put a new home in there. But I mean, we need something because I really don t want to move. Is your situation similar to Mr. Petry? Do you rent land and --- A. We rent the land. --- own a --- A. Right. --- mobile home of some kind? A. Yeah, a modular. Okay. BY ATTORNEY BLAIR: Q. And Ms. Scruggs, like I indicated to Mr. Petry, thank you very much for coming today. We really do need
0 0 to hear from the customers of the system, because when we don t hear or nothing is offered to us, Staff does what we believe to be best under the circumstances. So again, thank you for coming today. A. Okay. Thank you. ATTORNEY ELLISON: Judge, I just have a couple brief questions. You were asked, but your husband s name is James? A. No. My husband s name is William. William. Okay. A. Uh-huh (yes). And your name? A. Is Robin. R-O-B-I-N? A. Uh-huh (yes). And you are the actual customer? A. Yes, sir.
0 Then your father-in-law was not? A. Well, he was at one time for --- until they moved in our home with us. Okay. I m just trying to --- so I can get future mail sent to the right individuals. Okay. Now, you may cross examine. ATTORNEY ELLISON: Thank you, Judge. CROSS EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY ELLISON: 0 Q. Robin, you said that you had low pressure at one time? A. Yes. Q. And it took a half an hour to fill the bathtub up. Can you say when that was, approximately when that was? A. That was January 00. That s when my husband s grandmother died. Q. Okay. How is the pressure now? A. Well, I ve had to call Mr. Hastings probably about three times here recently because there was no water pressure. Q. How is the pressure now? A. This morning, it was fine.
Q. You mentioned something of --- you mentioned a man named Barry Perdue --- A. Uh-huh (yes). Q. --- who you know might wish to take over this? 0 0 A. I m not 00-percent for sure, but I do know that Mr. Perdue has a Class I license. Q. Do you know of any reason why he would not want to take this over? A. He s not on the water system, never has been. He has a well, and he was never offered to be put on the system. Q. Well, can you explain why you think --- why you would mention his name, why you think that he would want to? A. I would like for him to do it because I know he s capable of doing it. He works for Kanawha State Forest and he has to be able to treat their water. Q. Does he have another water company or ---? A. No. He just --- he s a, I guess, a park ranger, and that s what he --- he has to be able to do that over there at the forest. Q. Well, if Mr. Perdue --- do you think that if Mr. Perdue thought that he was going to make a lot of money taking over this water company, do you think he would take it?
A. Maybe if it was brought up to standards before Mr. Perdue had to take it over. And I mean, because he can t afford to put money out of his pocket. Q. How do you know that? A. Because he works for Kanawha State Forest and has for years, and he has four boys he s raising. ATTORNEY BLAIR: I m sorry. I ---. 0 You assume that he doesn t have a large income. A. Right. ATTORNEY BLAIR: I m sorry. I didn t hear your question. 0 ATTORNEY ELLISON: Oh. I asked her how she knew that he didn t have enough money. ATTORNEY BLAIR: Enough money to do what? ATTORNEY ELLISON: To take over the water system. ATTORNEY BLAIR: Oh, okay. BY ATTORNEY ELLISON:
Q. Do you know exactly what Mr. Hastings has done to improve the water system? 0 0 A. No. All I know is I don t do laundry on Mondays because I know my clothes is going to be bleached out. Q. So you don t know whether --- you don t --- you really can t testify as to what he s done to improve the water company? A. No. According to the letter that we received, he was allowed to --- he was given a raise to fix everything and not very many things were fixed. I know that. Q. How do you know that? A. It was in the letter. Q. So you got your knowledge from a letter that he hasn t done it? A. Uh-huh (yes). Q. But you don t know anything firsthand? A. No, because I don t work there. Q. How do you get your drinking water now? A. I go to the grocery store and buy it. Q. Okay. A. For my cooking, too. Q. Okay. Approximately how much does that cost for water? A. Probably about maybe $0 a month, considering we
drink a lot of, you know, coffee, Kool-Aid, tea, lemonade, water. 0 0 Q. So would you be willing to pay $0 a month water bill? A. Not to Mr. Hastings, no. ATTORNEY ELLISON: No more questions, Your Honor. And I think I understood what you said, ma am, but I want to make sure. You said that either all the time or some of the time the water is red or brown, discolored in some way? A. Well, it used to be. Now, it s chlorinated to the extent it bleaches your clothes. Okay. So that s what you were saying, that you didn t wash clothes on Mondays, is that when the chlorine is put in or something? A. I believe it s put in --- well, he used to put it in on Sundays, but by Monday morning it was so strong that it would take your breath. And so then as the week goes on, at least to your senses, the level of chlorine appears to lower?
A. Go away. It goes away. 0 0 But it was put in --- apparently put in once a week because you can smell it? A. Uh-huh (yes). And is the water now clear all of the time? Except for Mondays, can you wash clothes with it now or ---? A. Yes. I don t --- you know, not knowing why the water was discolored, I don t know if chlorine would have cleared the water up. Perhaps other treatment was done to the water as well, but do you notice any difference in the color of the water, ma am? A. No. Okay. ATTORNEY ELLISON: Judge? Yes? ATTORNEY ELLISON: Can I have a couple more questions?
0 Yes. BY ATTORNEY ELLISON: Q. When was the last time you used the water to wash your clothes? A. I think I did laundry last week, last Thursday or last Friday. Q. Were those clothes ruined? A. No. I put --- well, I use chemicals in my water. Q. What type of chemicals? A. Iron Out. Q. How often has this happened? How often have your clothes been ruined? A. In the past, it used to be pretty often, but 0 here lately it hasn t been too bad, just the bleach, the bleaching of the colors. Q. When you said in the past, how often? Can you give me an approximate ---? A. Almost every time I ve washed clothes. If I didn t use Iron Out, it would ruin my whites and my towels. Q. Can you give me an approximate time of when this was? A. Probably about two years ago.
Q. Okay. A. Because I have pictures of our bathtub. Q. So for the past two years, the water has been fine? Fine, as far as washing clothes? A. As far as washing clothes. 0 0 0 Q. So it s been fine for as far as washing clothes? A. Uh-huh (yes). Q. And you stated before that the water pressure that took a half an hour to fill the bathtub up happened in 0? A. Yeah. We went to the Laundromat. Q. So for the past three years, the water pressure has been fine? A. Not every time. Like I said, there s been times where I ve had to call Mr. Hastings and let him know that we had no water pressure. Q. Do you know that sometimes when he s working on the line, that the water pressure will ---? A. Mr. Hastings was not up there. He was on his other job. Q. But do you understand that when he is working on the line, the water pressure will decrease? A. Uh-huh (yes). Q. Okay. A. But he s never been up there when I ve called.
0 ATTORNEY ELLISON: No more questions, Judge. Okay. ATTORNEY BLAIR: Your Honor, I meant to ask this, even to the first witness, and I forgot. RECROSS EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY BLAIR: Q. Ms. Scruggs, during your problems with your water service that you testified to, did you lodge 0 complaints with the Public Service Commission concerning the water service received? A. I believe I ve called maybe once or twice. I mean, before the first hearing. Q. Did you lodge a complaint, meaning did you send something in writing to the Commission concerning this? A. If I did, I don t remember. Q. Did you go through our informal procedure where you talked to one of our customer complaint persons? A. Like I said, if I did, I don t remember. I believe I did before the first hearing for Mr. Hastings, but I mean, I don t quite remember. Q. And when you referred to that you received this information concerning the deficiencies regarding the
0 system, you re referring to that March the 0th, 00 letter, which had accompanying attachments? A. Right. ATTORNEY BLAIR: Thank you very much. And one other area. You stated that you had an arrearage of $0 and some? A. Uh-huh (yes). Are you paying your current water bill regularly now? A. Yes, sir. You didn t pay sometime in the past when the clothes were ruined? A. They were destroyed. And so --- but you are paying regularly 0 now? A. Yes, sir. You re just not backing up and paying that arrearage? A. Right.
ATTORNEY BLAIR: 0 0 And Your Honor, I believe she testified that she was going to pay it. A. Yes. I am going to pay, but he will be hearing from me on the destroyed clothes. She testified that apparently for two or three years the water had been suitable for washing clothes, I wasn t sure if she was paying her ---. A. It was just my clothing that I took off of there. I didn t --- I mean, if the water was fine, I paid it. Anything else of this witness? ATTORNEY ELLISON: No, Your Honor. And again, you may stand aside, and if you want to come to the next hearing, you re welcome to, but you don t have to unless you receive a subpoena. Does another customer want to come forward? ------------------------------------------------------ WANDA PETTRY, HAVING FIRST BEEN DULY SWORN, TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: ------------------------------------------------------
Be seated. State your name and make your statement like the other witnesses. A. My name is Wanda Pettry and I m one of Paul 0 0 Hastings customers. And basically, I m here to see what the Public Service Commission is going to help us do. Okay? You are in a position where you can help us, I hope. Mr. Hastings, I do understand why you want to abandon. Only five families live in the area, yes. It is a hardship for you at times, but when you got a raise, I feel like that you should have helped us just a little more. I cannot testify to all the bad clothing and so forth at our house because I put in a watering system, which is a filter and a water softener that helps my water. I don t have the red water as my neighbors has, although I did have it and I do have to treat the --- I mean, I have to change the filters and I have to buy salt, which that is an expense for me also. But basically, we just need help. We have lived there over 0 years, most of us, and we want to stay there. We don t want to have to move. We just want your help to help us get some water that we can use in our home. I haven t drank that water. I have carried water since probably. That s when I approached the water
company. I have several letters from them stating, you know, that I would like for them to help us. I ve had letters from Dave Bostick (phonetic) that has tried to 0 0 help us. Somehow we always get pushed to the end of the line. I thought we were going to get West Virginia American Water. It stopped nine-tenths of a mile from our home. For some reason, our little community was not turned in when all of other Paul s companies were turned in to the water company. They didn t even know that we had a little community up there that Paul owned; right? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: They knew it. A. They said they didn t. Well, we can t have a conversation at this point. A. Sorry about that. You can say what you ---. A. I m just trying to say that the water company says that they would have built this if they had known about us, so now we re asking for your help. That s all I have to say.
Okay. Questions? ATTORNEY ELLISON: Just one question. 0 0 A. Okay. CROSS EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY ELLISON: Q. Where do you get your drinking water? A. I buy it at Tom s Supermarket and I buy Tyler Mountain Water or I go to my daughter s and I bring jugs of water every Sunday to my home. Q. And approximately how much a month do you think that that water costs that you buy at the grocery store? A. At the grocery store, a month --- oh, dear. I m going to say $0. Q. $0? A. Because I get most of my water --- and I can drink where my water comes from. I can drink the water that comes from my daughter s home when we make the coffee and so forth. ATTORNEY ELLISON: That s all the questions I have. CROSS EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY BLAIR: Q. Good morning, Ms. Pettry. A. Good morning.
0 0 Q. I believe that you have sat here throughout the testimony that was being provided by the other customers of the system who have testified, have you not? A. (Indicates yes.) Q. I m sorry. You ll have to say yes or no. A. I m sorry. Yes, ma am. Q. Thank you. And I believe that you ve heard testimony that was provided by Ms. Scruggs; is that correct? A. Yes, ma am. Q. Did you receive a copy of the letter that was provided by Commission Staff dated March the 0th, 00? A. I believe I did. Q. And would that be the letter that was addressed to Mr. and Mrs. Jim Pettry? I understand your last name is spelled differently. It has two Ts? A. Right. ATTORNEY BLAIR: Your Honor, if I could approach the witness and also have this document marked as Staff s Exhibit Number Three? It will be so marked. (Staff s Exhibit Three marked for identification.)
BY ATTORNEY BLAIR: 0 0 Q. And I m going to hand you a copy just to refresh your memory. A. All right. Q. With regard to this document, did you contact the Public Service Commission concerning your feelings about either the abandonment of the system or the Commission trying to find a receiver for the water system? A. I did not, from the Public Service Commission. I did, the County Health Department. Q. Okay. So it s fair to say that you ve not contacted any member of Staff other than today --- A. No. Q. --- concerning this matter? Okay. With regard to the system, do you know of anyone who would be willing to take over the system and operate it? A. No, ma am. I know of no one that would be willing to take it over. Most everyone in that area, other than Mrs. Scruggs and her husband, is basically almost at retirement age. And like Mrs. Scruggs had mentioned before, Barry Perdue, which lives a short distance from us, I do know that he is licensed, but no one has ever --- I didn t even know this until probably a couple of weeks ago, that Barry was licensed. I feel
0 0 like maybe if he s approached and maybe he could --- even he could get on this water system if, you know, if he s told that he can do so. Q. Let me ask you this. Would you be willing to have an increase in the current amount that you re paying for water service in order to have the current deficiencies on the system corrected to bring that system up to the standards of the Bureau for the Public Health? A. That s a little touchy. Yes, ma am. I would pay it. I have never missed a payment to Mr. Hastings in all the years that I have lived there. I would be more than willing to pay an increase, but I want to see something done first. I mean, I don t want somebody to move in there and say I m going to do this and I m going to do that and they send me a bill for $. No. I m not going to be willing to pay a $ bill if you re not going to do something to help me to start with. Q. And is it correct, as the other customers on the system have testified here today or it s been indicated, you do not own the property on which your house is situated? A. No, ma am. Q. You rent? A. We rent from Penn Virginia. Q. I m sorry?
0 A. We rent from Penn Virginia. Q. And how long have you lived up in that area? A. We ve lived there since. Q. Have you --- I know you testified that you buy your drinking water. Have you had any experiences with the water service, such as your clothes being damaged, low pressure, things of that nature that have been complained about? A. The low pressure, yes. The low pressure, yes. As far as the water going off, yes, but as far as --- I haven t had any clothes ruined for the last five years 0 0 because of buying the filtering system that we bought to put in our home. Q. Okay. Are you aware of how many years ago your water service rate was increased to $? I believe that s what you re currently paying? A. I have sat and tried to remember when that happened. Honestly, ma am, I cannot give you a true statement on that because I don t remember when it went up. My husband was here at that hearing when it was increased, and he knows more about this than I do. Q. Okay. I believe your testimony also focused on you having spoken or been in communication with Mr. Dave Bostick? A. Years ago.