carnegie Page 1 of 19 Marwan Muasher, Sheikh Rachid Ghannouchi, Several Speakers

Transcription

1 carnegie Page 1 of 19 Good morning. My name is Marwan Muasher. I m Vice President at Carnegie, in charge of the Middle East Program. Welcome to this very special event today. Let me first say that, before I introduce our speaker, that today s address will be in Arabic. There is simultaneous translation, so for those who have not obtained a receiver and headset, please do so as necessary. The headsets are outside the room. Sheikh Rachid will give his address in Arabic and after that, you can ask your questions in English but there will be, like I said, simultaneous translation. It s a real honor to have Sheikh Rachid Ghannouchi with us today. I don t need to introduce Sheikh Rachid to you. He is extremely well-known. Of course, he is the co-founder and president of the Nahda Party in Tunisia and a leading Islamics thinker. Sheikh Rachid has played a very important role in the recent agreement on the Constitution in Tunisia and on the whole transition process that is going on there. For those of us who hope for a more pluralistic Middle East, a region that accepts differences and tolerates dissent, the record of the last three years has been a disappointing one. Tunisia has been the one bright spot in this picture. While everything is not perfect in that country, the new constitution passed by the National Constituent Assembly is a major accomplishment. It is one of the most progressive democratic and pluralistic constitutions to have ever been adopted in the Arab world, if not the most progressive. After months of very difficult negotiations, the consensus that eventually emerged among the country s Islamic and secular parties gives us hope for the future. Compromise is never easy, but it is critical to progress. In the end, Tunisia s political factions succeeded in overlooking their differences to develop a political framework that offers, I think, not just the entire country a chance for a better future, but that can also serve as a model throughout the Arab world. Sheikh Rachid deserves as much credit as any one individual can claim for these developments. When polarization threatened to derail the transition last summer, he steered his party towards a series of concessions most importantly, relinquishing control over the government that helped pave the way for the constitution s passage. Of course, politics in Tunisia is just beginning. Many of the fundamental political questions confronting the country, including the role of religion and politics, have not yet been decided. Tunisia must also deal with mounting economic, social, and security problems. Despite the distances it has come, the challenges to building a more pluralistic and Page 1 of 19

2 carnegie Page 2 of 19 democratic society are likely to be just as great in the years ahead. We are honored and pleased to welcome Sheikh Rachid Ghannouchi to Carnegie this afternoon. I look forward to his remarks on how he sees Tunisia navigating the challenges ahead. Sheikh Rachid. [Applause] S. R. Ghannouchi: Thank you very much, Mr. Muasher. Thank you for your coming and permit me to express to explain myself in Arabic and I ll respond your questions with my poor English. [Laughter] Yes. [Speaking in Arabic from 0:04:34 0:04:37] Translator 1: I am delighted to talk to you to meet you, to talk about the Tunisian experience of the Tunisian model, which has proven to the whole world that democracy is a dream that can be realized, not in the Muslim world and around the whole world as we are seeing in various regions. Despite the we see the impact on the Ukraine despite the setbacks that the Arab Spring has faced in the past. The Tunisian experience, ladies and gentlemen, has proved to those who are fearful of the Arab Spring turning into a fundamentalist that encouraging military coup is not the solution, that it only leads to chaos and destruction, in contrast to the freedom it s showing by the Tunisian people today. It includes the people who greatly defended the revolution, the democratic transition and stood against the terrorists and those who plotted to bring about chaos to this country. The Tunisian experience has proven that the cost of encouraging coups, the giving up of the Arab Spring, is much more greater than showing patience while nations find their own solutions for their internal crisis and disputes, which are often caused by a lack of experience on the part of the political elite and a need for more time to be accustomed to democratic practices after decades of despotism. The Tunisian experience has proven, ladies and gentlemen, to those who are doubting the attentions of the Islamists, that there are no contradictions between Islam and democracy, and the victims of decades of repression, marginalization, exclusion, are not carrying hatred so the part of Islam or desires to revenge, but there are an enlightened, modernist civil project, as embodied in the Tunisian Constitution, which has guaranteed the widest possible consensus as it has been adopted by 200 in the Parliament out of 217 members in other words, a majority that nears complete approval. Despite the regime s deposement by the revolution, just find that the repression of the Islamist was a Page 2 of 19

3 carnegie Page 3 of 19 necessity to face to protect democracy from a theocracy and the protection of security of the world from terrorism and other slogans that you will use to justify violations and the killings of hundreds under torture and the imprisonment of tens of thousands and the of all freedoms. Tunis today has been able to prove that this is false and that the danger for democracy and stability and security is despotism itself, and that there is no reason for despotism anywhere in the world. To has proved that these accusations were false. Tunis today is saying to the world and to the freedom the friends of freedom that there is no contradiction between Islam and democracy, that the Islamists stand at the forefront of those defending the right to difference and cultural diversity and freedom of cultures and equality between men and women and all the values that establishes a society of development and justice. The success of the Tunisian experience, ladies and gentlemen, was not spontaneous, nor did was surprising to those who were following the our march since 1981, and the data confirms the compatibility between Islam and democracy. Therefore, while we adopted democracy, it was not really a new after we won majority in the elections of the constitutional conference, our call was for unity and not and coexistence between the Islamists and the secularists and the two principal families the two components of the Arab elite and without cooperation between them, the state will never be able to achieve stability and democracy will never succeed. The troika, which was a coalition between two secularists and an Islamic party, expressed this conviction that the success of democracy requires not only the rule of the majority, but also requires consensus between the Islamists and the secularists as the two big components of our elite, whether in the government or in the Council, committed with the same consensus and to give priority the public interests of Tunis or not to hurry writing the Constitution, but to maintain the social peace and the unity of the state until we have been able to reach the greater sacrifice, what is to give up the government in order to get out of this political crisis, which threatened the revolution in the country. We give up the government not under pressure, but through an election that we lost the revolution or a coup, but we sacrifice government and our position in it for something that is more important, and that is to give the Tunisians a democratic and acceptable constitution to all. People are saying that they I will not give up governments, and the idea that the Islamists are asking for a democracy for a first for one time only until they get to power and then they will give up democracy. We have proven in Page 3 of 19

4 carnegie Page 4 of 19 Tunis that the Islamists can give up authority even without elections, and this is something very real in the world and it is against the nature of people. The nature of people is to insist on government, but we were able to achieve victory against ourselves before we succeeded against dictatorship. Many people believed that al-nahda will not give up governments even if it loses elections and that democracy does not mean more than to simply getting to authority and monopoly over authority, but this encourages us to prove to our partners and to our people and to the world that these are only simply fears that are not justified in Tunis, and that the al-nahda is a political party that is democratic and mature and is deeply rooted in Islam and in democracy. Today, nobody can make doubts about the democratic intentions in our political reality and our respect to a civil system. Nobody can claim that the al-nahda left government because it was forced to, but because various considerations most important to which is, first, that our giving up government came within the framework of a complete move toward national agreement and issuing a constitution. Our vision was very clear that the goal of reaching power in the transitional period was to accomplish the constitution and to lead the country towards elections, and all of them required consensus and national unity. We refused to have a constitution for the majority that is imposed on the minority. We understood the requests of some of the political powers regarding transparency of elections and the necessity of having a neutral government to supervise the elections so that there would be no doubts about the elections, which would be and that is not done under the supervision of one party. We also rejected to decide the issues of the street, even though and we refused the division between the Islamists and the secularists and we kept channels of communication with them and we accepted the national dialogue because we understood very well that the struggle and confrontation is not going to resolve the problems, but because al-nahda is the greatest party in the country, it is required to provide the most concessions to protect the revolution because so our responsibility was larger and we thirdly, that leaving government was achieved after the national delegation, not a product of pressure in dealing with the crisis. We have agreed to implement the road map and the resignation of the government after they reach a consensus about the head of the government. And we recognize the role of the civil society, such as the trade unions and organizations that monitor human rights and to make the civil society a little group between the other Page 4 of 19

5 carnegie Page 5 of 19 parties. We saw in Egypt, the army intervened inside of one side against the other, which did not happen in Tunis. The Tunisians, on the 23rd of October, went down to elect a foundation council to prepare the constitution and we realized that the people will hold them accountable for this historical mission. And the Constitution and its contents a constitution that establishes democracy and a modern society that is respected by the Muslim Tunisian people, a constitution that does not give priority to the majority over the minority, we want the people to be able to see themselves in the constitution and this is what was achieved. On the other side, there were several parties that pressured to have a conservative constitution, and to the left from the secular, a moderate secularist the secularists pressured to have a constitution tat is contradictory to the identity of the Tunisian people who. At the end, the middle one and those who believe in coexistence between the Islamists and the secularists. The victory by the sectorists would make the constitution a way to connect between all Tunisians and will give us benefits and will prevent us from moving toward the right or to the left, which is needed by Tunis, to follow the middle road. The Tunisian constitution is based on a vision for Tunis in the future. We do not want a text that establishes revenge simply to support one political direction against the other. Those who can be winners, they can be losers in the future, and this is the product of a short-sighted policy, but we wanted a constitution that provides protection for all the rights of the and agree with the dream of all those reformers since the 18th century, such Khair al- Din, who wanted to combine the values of Islam and the values of modernity without any contradiction. And this is, ladies and gentlemen, some of the aspects of our experience, which can be summarized in one word: the national consensus, instead of the struggle of dispute. This is the word that gave Tunis a constitution for the revolution, got us out of a very suffocating experience, and now leading us to elections for Tunis to establish with one of the Arab democracies. We were able to reach national consensus with the assistance of civil society organizations. When the struggle between politicians went up during the political crisis, by establishing a road map to get the country out of this crisis, which was about to happen, the Tunisians were reunited around their civil society organizations and were patient for six month of dialogue until they were able to reach this consensus. Consensus in Jordan was achieved and I think political elitists committed, to a large extent, to support the Page 5 of 19

6 carnegie Page 6 of 19 government and Mr. Mahdi Juma, which is blessed by the Tunisian people and we call on our friends in the world, including the United States of America, to support the government of Mahdi Juma because its success will be a success for democracy during this transitional period. Our country, ladies and gentlemen, is united and now, in the face of terrorism. And the political elite knows very well that return to confrontation is not justified, and the support of the calming of the situation will help hold the elections under the most difficult circumstances because one elections such a cannot be happen. There must be to support the birth of democracy in Tunis through Translator 2: Of course, the economic aspect is very important in Tunisia. I know that we will be sure that there will be stability and we hope that we are going to encourage national consensus by our friends all over the world to help the government economically and reforming the donor organizations or that we can support our thing, which is the only lightened country in the Arab Spring. Tunisia, ladies and gentlemen, is flipping over one page of its political history and it has put democracy on the right path and it has given the world the first constitution of the Arab Spring, which ends the era of the repression in the Arab world because they say that they don t have the genes for democracy, which is not correct. But Arabs have already the genes. Arabs, like others, as all creatures, are well-prepared for democracy and they are able to exchange the authority and rotate the authority and are able to achieve a constitution that will make for the freedom of cultures, that ensures the rights of women and minorities, and it will keep the development, the continual development, and it s going to establish the organizations that can bear the responsibility as well as political organizations that are taking care of human rights to observe the behavior of the ruler. I think that this should go ahead even after the next elections that are going to take place because we need consensus because the Islams and seculars, but the Islamic tendencies have to make for Tunisia of tomorrow and that the Tunisian ship has to take off by all the Tunisians and not a part thereof. And I think that our party is going to be a frontrunner in the next elections, but it shouldn t be governed by one party only. When the organizations are fragile, having 51 majority is not enough. We have to have a stable government and stable democracy. We believe that the country will need a coalition government that brings together the main parties in the country in order to achieve stability and strengthen Page 6 of 19

7 carnegie Page 7 of 19 democracy and its institutions. This is the Tunisian lesson, just a small country with its geographic boundaries and its geographic resources, and as democracy and peace as well as freedom, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk to you, and peace be upon you. [Applause] [Speaking in Arabic from 0:23:46 to 0:23:49] Translator 2: Thank you, Sheikh Rachid, for this comprehensive speech and we are going to start the questions right now, but beforehand, I d like to welcome the Tunisian ambassador and representative of the Arab League as well as all those who are here. Ladies and gentlemen and also, we d like to talk about the spokesperson of the party in Tunisia. Sheikh Rachid, you have used in your speech all the expressions that we are looking for in the Arab world. The national consensus and non-monopoly of the authority and coexistence between Islamists and secularists as well as national consensus, as well as the freedom of cultures, equality between men and women. We have heard about all that in the Arab world, but I think that it s there only in the Tunisian Constitution. There are some persons who say that agreement to the Constitution was not achieved except after the al-nahda party has got the lesson from what has taken place in Egypt, and we would like to know your point of view in this matter. Undoubtedly, the Tunisian experience is quite different from the Egyptian experience. Therefore, how can you respond to that? And secondly, do you think that the Tunisian model could be applied in other Arab countries and how they can have national consensus through the coexistence between all parties and having the consensus between all parties instead of the separations who is taking place in many countries right now? S. R. Ghannouchi: Yes. Yes. Even the situation social situation in Tunisia is different from the Egyptian one or Libyan one. Each society has own specificities. I think Tunisia can affect positively the other revolution, the other Arab countries because there are many similarities between all Arab societies. All Arabs look for democracy, liberty. About the Tunisian experience vis-à-vis the consensus notion of the consensus, we practice this consensus not after some months, but since the beginning in after the October 23, 2011 when our movement has almost the majority, we insisted that the country, the period of transition, needs the government of coalition, not government of one party. We don t Page 7 of 19

8 carnegie Page 8 of 19 like that Tunisian people feel that we move from one party, called the RCD, to other party, called Nahda. So since the beginning, we were very keen and we re still very keen that Tunisia has to be ruled through government of coalition, specially between moderate Islamists and moderate secularists. So this is the main pillar of socalled Tunisian experience of transition of democracy. And how others can benefit from this experience, up to them. [Laughter] Dr. Mohammed: Okay. We re going to take maybe three questions at a time. We have a full room, so please keep your questions short and identify yourself and your affiliation, please. Dr. Mohammed, International Center for Counter-Radicalism. I have question to Mr. Ghannouchi, like do you agree with the message of as launching violence ahead to subjugate people, to, as mentioned in his book, [speaking in Arabic 0:29:17-0:29:19] I would like to get your answer as yes or no, please. Thank you. [Laughter] Let s take a couple more questions. [Laughter] Yes, please. [Speaking in Arabic from 0:29:35 to 0:29:48] Male 1: I was a Peace Corps volunteer in Tunisia in 1980, 81. [Speaking in Arabic from 0:29:51 to 0:29:57] S. R. Ghannouchi: Another question? Male 1: Let s with your permission, three questions at a time and then we So when I returned to Tunisia and I honestly forget a year and a half ago, I can t remember exactly when, the day I landed in Tunis was the day that the Salafists shut down the National Theatre because a play was about to be produced and apparently it was a dialogue between a fundamentlist maybe a Salafist and a secular. And there were massive coils of barbed wire all over Avenue Habib Bourguiba and the police were out in presence, and yet, the National Theatre was closed by the Salafists and the play was not staged. And I m curious if you feel, in the beginning, you didn t your party didn t take the Salafists seriously enough until they began assassinations, or what could you say about the role the link between your party and the Salafists? Page 8 of 19

9 carnegie Page 9 of 19 [Speaking in Arabic from 0:31:07 to 0:31:13] Tommamem Borazi: My name is Tommamen Borazi. I m a Syrian journalist. Mr. Ghannouchi, you graduated from Damascus. S. R. Ghannouchi: Yes. Tommamem Borazi: So you know Syria quite well. What went wrong and what s [laughter] why we don t follow you? And what did you contribute to Syrian, you know, like a mediator or something, like you can talk to the Syrian regime? [Speaking in Arabic from 0:31:39-0:31:40] S. R. Ghannouchi: Yes, I have studied in Damascus, but it s for a long time. [Laughter] In 60s, where democracy remains of democracy still there at the time. In the university, there are many conflict between students, but after that, Ba ath came to power and dictator finish everything, every destroy every remains of democracy. I think Syrian elites in opposition failed so far, has failed consensus between among them. It s failure of elite. I think Tunisian elite, even there are many confrontation, many difficulties, but but they succeed finally to reach consensus and they save our this experience of democracy. We hope that, one day, the Syrian elites can reach some consensus. Also, there are other difference between the position the geography. Tunisian geography is different from the Syrian and Egyptian geography, so it s put heavy responsibilities, heavy elements and difficulties on Syria and Egypt. But I extremely believe that one day, then they reach their democracy. They succeed to get rid of with dictatorship. The regime of Assad, like the regime of Sisi, has no future because there is the Arab Spring has achieved a very important achievement. I mean, the fear has collapsed. Arab people discovered through this revolution that the ruler, the despots, are not strong enough. People discover their capacity, their energy. So it s not easy to [speaking in foreign language from 0:35:13 to 0:35:16] To put it back into the bottle. [Laughter] To put the genie back in the bottle. S. R. Ghannouchi: So it s a matter of time. When this people will reach its democracy, matter of time, but going back is not possible. So I m Page 9 of 19

10 carnegie Page 10 of 19 very optimist that Arabs will reach their democracies sooner or later. About [speaking in Arabic from 0:35:49 to 0:36:06] Sayyid Qutb, his personality Dr. Mohammed: Yes or no? S. R. Ghannouchi: His personality is very complicate. He s poet, he s also. Dr. Mohammed: Female: Yes or no? He won t say yes or no, that s. S. R. Ghannouchi: So you couldn t deal with Sayyid Qutb, with this logic. [Laughter] Sayyid Qutb, his personality is has many dimensions. You couldn t deal with a personality like Sayyid Qutb with yes or no s, because he is not loyal. He is. He is philosopher, he is I m not agree I criticize Sayyid Qutb in many issues. One of them is the notion of [speaking in Arabic from 0:37:10 to 0:37:10]. The notion of Male: Pre-Islam. S. R. Ghannouchi: Pre-Islam of he consider that our societies are not Muslim, like not Muslim or like pre-islam. The text of Sayyid Qutb are very complicate. We cannot deal with them with this simplified logic. But we can contradict. I contradict many concepts of Sayyid Qutb. I m not agree that his position vis-à-vis the others, who different from us. The third one? Male: Salafism. S. R. Ghannouchi: Oh, Salafism. The other subject of is very complicate, yes. Not easy subject, yes. Our relation Salafism is not simple concept. It s very complicate. There is many differences within the Salafist. There is for example, vis-à-vis using violence, some of them use violence, some of them not. The jihadist, it s only branch of Salafism. In Tunisia, there are three Salafi parties recognized by the government because they don t use violence, because the state has no problem with the ideologies, with the value behind these. The message, the role of government is to security, to guarantee security, to implement justice, to give service to people. But about their faith, their ideologies, it s matter of society, not matter of state. Imposing any model of life is not matter of state; it s the Page 10 of 19

11 carnegie Page 11 of 19 society has full right to choose any model of life how dress, how to dress, eat, it s matter of society, not matter of state. State it s role to impose security, to implement justice, to give services. So once the government confront with the Salafist when they take weapons, when they try to impose themselves, their model on the society and use violence. So once when our Salafist work to spread their ideology within the mosques and in society, we leave them. Once they start to smuggle with ones from Libya to train and to confront with the police, the government classify this branch, Ansar al-sharia, as terrorist group and declares war against them. It s not matter of ideas; it s matter of security. This phenomena is very complicate one. It has to be fought with complicate medicine also to guarantee the freedom, to develop the area where they grow up, it s the poorest area in Tunisia, so there is lack of development, and the role of the imams, the thinkers to rethinking Islam, to convince people that Islam is not violence, is not anti-woman, anti-arts, anti-democracy. Islam is justice, mercy, science. So this young people are victim of lack of knowledge about Islam. So this phenomena is very complicate, needs to be corrected by complicate solution. Khail Liani: Let s take a yes, sir, over there. Yes. Khail Liani from the Middle East Institute. I just have two questions for you. The first one is about the presidential elections. Will al-nahda nominate someone for the presidency or not in the upcoming elections? [Speaking Arabic from 0:43:18 to 0:43:22] Khail Liani: The second one is about S. R. Ghannouchi: why it s not me? [Laughter] Khail Liani: Yeah, that s very kind of you. Okay, if not you, will al-nahda support anyone else to the presidency? The second question is about the internal division within al-nahda. Some people are talking about these divisions after the constitution, that al-nahda give concessions and they could not satisfy all of grassroots of al- Nahda from within. To what extent is it true? Is there any division within al-nahda or not? Thank you. [Speaking Arabic from 0:43:53 to 0:43:57] S. R. Ghannouchi: Why you intervene in our kitchen? [Laughter] Page 11 of 19

12 carnegie Page 12 of 19 Tala Haikal: Yes. The woman in the glasses, yes. Tala Haikal, American Task Force on Palestine. Do you still stand by your claims that women are complementary to men and what is al-nahda doing to include more women, both in politics and in the labor force? [Speaking in Arabic from 0:44:19 to 0:44:28] Aseel al-awadhi: Talk, please. Aseel al-awadhi, a former member of the Kuwaiti Parliament. You spoke about the Islamist experience as it is one unified body. You talked we re very proud about your experience, but our experience is totally different and I think in all Arab worlds, the skepticism about the Islamists when they gain power is still, I think, valid because of their behavior. They didn t share, obviously, your vision and they were not tolerant. Our Islamists is not tolerant at all to differences of opinion or to secularists. So I just wanna know what do you think about the Islamist experience with the Arab Spring because we re not gonna talk about Tunisia, because Tunisia is the exception, really, that the model that we are all proud of. But we can t generalize when we have just one exception. We heard about your opinion about Sisi, which is totally understandable, but I wanna hear about your opinion about Morsi and other Islamists who actually had their share in power in other Arab countries. Thank you. [Speaking in Arabic from 0:45:57 to 0:45:57] S. R. Ghannouchi: Yes. The first question about whether al-nahda will represent candidate in presidency elections next, this decision has not yet made. All parties, Tunisian parties, still Negotiating? No. [Laughter] S. R. Ghannouchi: Waiting, negotiate. [Laughter] But soon, they will take they will decide their position. And I expect that Nahda will not have a candidate in presidency. I expect. But things has not yet decided. In anyway, Nahda insist that if our people renew its confidence in Nahda, even if Nahda has the majority, we insist that the government has to be coalition government between Islamists and secularists to guarantee that the third step of transition to democracy will succeed also. Page 12 of 19

13 carnegie Page 13 of 19 We are very keen that democracy in Tunisia will not be an accident, but it will be the future of Tunisia, not simple accident. So it can be a simple accident. So the risk, we are aware that of this risk. Democracy can be simple accident and the dictator come back. So we have to guarantee the government of consensus, not government of simple majority. Are there confrontation, are differences within al-nahda? Yes. Yes, Nahda is modern party, not led by Sheikh Sufi. [Laughter] Sufi Sheikh. But or supreme guide. So the, we have not this motion, so it s a modern party where there are many wings, many confrontation, and finally, the institution of the party decide. But al-nahda, we all our members believe in democracy, believe in moderate Islam, believe in using violence, and believe that the decision has to be made by the institution of the party and all people has to obey of this decision. I think our party is the main party in the country and the most unified party in the country. About the women rights, it s very this issue is very important in Tunisia. It s part of the Tunisian model of democracy. If permit me, I would like to leave the panel to our sister, Amel Azzouz, to speak in behalf of women, not me. [Laughter] Female: Amel Azzouz:. Can you use the podium because of the microphone, please? Yes. Thank you, Sheikh Rachid. Thank you for allowing me this opportunity. First of all yeah. Okay, my name is Amel Azzouz. I m a member of the National Constituent Assembly and particularly, I m a member of a very important constituent commission, that s commission number one dealing with preamble and the basic principles and the amendment of the Constitution. I m also a member of the Shura Council of my party, Nahda. The Shura Council is supposed to be the highest institution in my party. As for women s question, I ve to be frank with you, I ve always liked and preferred to talk about citizens in general, men and women, because I m supposed to represent men and women in my country. But because women s question has been used as an alibi, has been exploited, even, very much in my country, has been used by political parties to attack al-nahda political opponent, so I m oblige to answer back and to respond to those to many allegations. Page 13 of 19

14 carnegie Page 14 of 19 As for let me start by the first part of the question, which is complementary the question of complementarity. This question has been dealt with in commission number two, Freedoms and Liberties, I think, that s of Freedom and Liberties. And the context in which it has been presented is not the one which has been perpetuated afterwards or which was perpetuated afterwards, because even in Arabic, the camel, it means one I mean, men complementaring women and women complementaring men. It s not the same as in French, la complémentarité, for example, or in English, the same. The way it has been dealt with in that commission and those who have been even presented who those who have presented that notion, if you want, what they meant is trying to put an end to men s selfishness. There are public spheres and private spheres, and what you wanted exactly is to bring men back to the private spheres and get women out to the public sphere. Why are we supposed women all the time to be confined to the private sphere? Why are men only supposed to be in the public sphere? So let us, you, you come to my sphere with children, education, all of those affairs or matters women are supposed to do with, and men is supposed to deal with the serious matters. So this is how things but because this very issue was a matter of controversy, it was controversial, my party said, Let s put an end to this. This constitution gathers, joins in any issue which is a matter of conflict, we should get rid of it. So we got rid of it and we still believe and continue to believe we have always believed in theory and practice that in gender equality, that men or women should participate in the building and change in a very big mission, if you want, social mission of change, okay? If you go back to the writings of Sheikh Rachid and the writings of our thought, our programs, our communiqués also since the 80s, I belong to this party. I started belonging as an activist, as a student activist, in this party in the 80s and I was aware of what I m doing. This party believes in women, in women s addition, in women s participation. That s why I chose to be an activist inside this party. As for the Constitution now, as for the Constitution, nothing came under pression. These are our convictions and beliefs, although there are certain people who d like to show the world that things here are under pressure of certain or certain faction, if you want, or another faction. I d like to read a cite, if you don t mind, from the preamble, which I am proud to be a member of the commission of the preamble. I d like to read Article 21 and Article 20 46, which is really a real addition I m proud of in this Constitution. In the preamble, Paragraph number 4, I cite at the end of the Page 14 of 19

15 carnegie Page 15 of 19 Paragraph number 4 the role of the state, if you want. So, all citizens, male and female this is assuring let me read, independence of the judiciary equality of rights and duties between all citizens, male and female, et cetera. In Article 26, as well, I cite, The right no, that s not 26, 21. All citizens, male and female, have equal rights and duties and are equal before the law without any discrimination. The state guarantees freedoms and individual and collective rights to all citizens, and ensures all citizens the conditions for a dignified life. As for Article 46, I cite, The state commits to protect women s accrued rights and work to strengthen and develop those rights. The state guarantees the equality of opportunities between women and men to have access to all levels of responsibility in all domains. The state works to attain parity between women and men in elected assemblies. The state takes all necessary measures in order to eradicate violence against women. If you have a look at our program with which we have conducted, the campaign, the electorate campaign, we have said things like that. We said we do defend. We are for the defense of women s acquisitions in this country. The code, the penal not the penal code, the family code, if you want, yes? The statute Male: Amel Azzouz: The personal status. Yes, the personal status, if you want. We have to defend that. Not only that. We have committed ourselves also to develop those acquisitions. We still believe in my party that women have to be represented in decision-making positions. This is what we need, really. If you want real change in women s position, we have to empower her politically, which I think is the problem for all women all over the world. It s not only the woman s problem in Tunisia. Women all over the world are being marginalized, and how can you feel such exclusion? It s when you know the number of women in those positions, very delicate positions of decisionmaking. So we ll continue to work on legislation so that we guarantee womens empowerment politically, especially, economic, and social empowerment. Okay, thank you. [Applause] Thank you. Sheikh Rachid, the question on Tunisian Islamic experience as an exception, rather than the rule, in the Arabic world. The member of parliament from Kuwait S. R. Ghannouchi: I think Islamists are not one. There is plurality within Islamists. Any temptation to simplify this notion and exposing Islamists as Page 15 of 19

16 carnegie Page 16 of 19 one is not scientific. Islamism, it s social phenomenon. Any social phenomena is plural. We have not simplified them and linked them with terrorism, with backwardness. So we can see in this phenomena two trends, two trends. The mainstream of Islamism is moderate, in general. What I mean by moderate? Moderate I mean by moderate, they refuse using violence to impose their ideas, ideologies. They refuse to go to the power through weapons or stealing the power by eliminate freedoms. I mean by moderate Islamist who is very keen to work with indulu. And the other trends, they refuse work in indulu and they try to impose their laws and destroy the realities, the law in praxis, in place. So the, for example, are in the heart of these trend of moderate Islamism. But within, within this trend, there are many, many specifities according of the reality in this country and the reality others country, so we cannot put in the same bag the Islamists all Islamists because there are different. I think in Kuwait, there are many fraction jihadist and moderate and Salafist, so it s wrong, I think. It s wrong to simplify this plural phenomenon. Okay, please. Yes. [Alarm sounding] Oh, no. Somebody doesn t want you to ask the question. [Laughter] Okay, please. Ken Peres: All right, I ll just sit down. My name is Ken Peres, I m Chief Economist for the Communications Workers of America. It s a union here. The economic situation in Tunisia, obviously, was one of the main causes of the revolution and Tunisia s still in difficult situation. So the question is two questions: one, does al-nahda support or have a plan to improve Tunisia s economy overall, and specifically, in the less-developed areas, and two is, if so, what is it? S. R. Ghannouchi: Okay. Over there, yes. No. Male: You made numerous references to Tunisia being a model, but I remember those days when you frequently made references to Turkey as a model. And recently, I ve been hearing Tunisia becoming a model for Turkey. [Laughter] What s happened there? Could you please reflect on it a little bit? Thank you. Page 16 of 19

17 carnegie Page 17 of 19 S. R. Ghannouchi: Okay, yes. Please, yes. Male: [Speaking Arabic from 1:03:30 to 1:03:35] Translator 1: Stages first democracy, second, proving that it s capable to go through the transition. The third is, what does the Islamist provide economically to Tunis? In 1981, there was one statement by the Islamists that the needs of people, something to that effect, yeah. Are there any economic reading for the Nahda party with regard to the situation in Tunis in the Arab world? The second question is about the Salafists. You have response was not very clear. The mentality of the Salafist is the same as that of the Islamist to al- Nahda. Is there any evidence that the Salafists are different from the Islamists? Because their ideas are similar to these Islamists. Last question? Sam Hal Hanawi: Sam Hal Hanawi, Egyptian Americans for Democracy and Human Rights. Sheikh, I know exactly your point of view on the coup in Egypt and you re absolutely anti-coup, but do you think there is any element or any part Tunis may play in Egypt to try to bring the both party, the Muslim Brotherhood and the Army to sit together, try to come up with a way or negotiation to get out of what s happening in Egypt and stop the killing, stop the blood, and actually free the prisoners? Thank you. S. R. Ghannouchi: Again, Egypt is very important. So it s worth to speak again about this very important country. It s the leader of Arabs. So changing Egypt is not easy because changing Egypt means changing the whole region. So it needs it s the price which Egyptian have to pay, to have the democracy, because if they liberate Egypt, they liberate all the region. So all, all power who don t care about democracy or refuse or fear democracy, they try to stop the change in Egypt. And it s clear that is it what the Morsi government has done? Is it all is it right and légitime? I think Morsi government made many mistakes. I think that Egyptian elite have failed to discuss between them, to reach consensus. So it s failure of elite, what happened in Egypt. Whether Morsi tried to negotiate and to encourage his opponent to share power with him or not, I haven t enough knowledge. But in democracy and Morsi s elect is elected president, in democracy, mistakes cannot justify coup d État. In democracy, mistakes can be done, can be committed, but how we correct the mistakes in democracy? Through Page 17 of 19

18 carnegie Page 18 of 19 Economic plan for elections, even anticipate elections. Not to go to the army and to commit this crime of massacres. So soon or late, Egyptian people will regain his democracy and continue his itinerary toward democracy, with Morsi or without Morsi. But I am talking about Egyptian people. Egyptian people now the main now the youth Egyptian, Egyptian youth in universities, every day, they protest and the spirit of revolution is there. No one can no can strangle this spirit, extinguish. [Laughter] S. R. Ghannouchi: Yes. The main now, the main problem in Tunisia is the economy, but before the economy, the politics. Tunisia has very limited, modest resources, natural resources. The main resources in Tunisia is the human resources. There is good level of education, there is middle-class, very vast middle-class in Tunisia. We are in geographically, we are in good place, in the heart of the Mediterranean. We missed the liberty, the stability. If we guarantee the democracy in Tunisia, we see the key of economic development. Tunisia is able to be Singapore, Malaysia, and so on, if it succeed establishing the democrat system. So now, Tunisian are occupied not with the economy, but we are occupied with establishing democracy. Even during the last two years, our economy achieved some development. Now, the government started with the Tunisian economy with two percent under zero, negative. Now, the level the rate of growth is three percent positive. But still, high level of unemployment in the country and we think that stability can this problem. The program of in economy nowadays social, we accept the free initiative in the economy, but within the justice, within the social guarantee for the poor people. So we see in Turkey an example of fast development has done. Even we are talking many time about Scandinavian model of economy, which combine between social justice and free initiative. And we still develop our model of economy. Okay. Please, thank you and oh, sorry. [Speaking in foreign language from 1:12:57 to 1:13:00] Translator 2: Is there any proof for differences between al-nahda and the Salafists? Page 18 of 19

19 carnegie Page 19 of 19 S. R. Ghannouchi: Is there any proof that Nahda is different from Salafi? Our brother there, he needs us to say that we don t read the Quran because they read the Quran. [Laughter] We don t read the Sunnah because they read it. No, it s not right to say that, No, the government of Nahda classify Ansar al-sharia as terrorist more than more yesterday, the Minister of Interior said that thousand of people have been arrested. We are not happy with that, but they worth to do that because they using violence. So I m not simplify things. Things are very complicate. Islamists, all of them, they are the same? If we you will note that there are some difference, you can explain that it s only appearance. It s a double discourse and role-playing. It s not scientific. We don t of explain the social complicate social phenomenon. Please join me in thanking Sheikh Rachid for this excellent. [Applause] [End of Audio] Page 19 of 19