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Jane Carter
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1 1 of 12 2/25/2008 8:53 AM Cessna Pilots Association Members-Only Forums Welcome David Kalwishky. [Logout] Forum questions? Check our FAQ page All times in UTC My Home Main Index Search Active Topics Who's Online FAQ User List Calendar Model-Specific Forums >> Cessna 210 / P210 Forum Previous Index Next Threaded Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 Oh Crap! Ailerons Seized on RSTOL # /23/08 11:49 PM Attachment (5 downloads) Holy crap! The shop calls the other day and tells me I need to come out here to see a little problem they found with my plane (T210N). That s never a good thing, he then says it s pretty serious but not that big of a deal, whatever the hell that means. No Big deal my but, this was major! The Ailerons were seized in a full turn! The Aileron stop jumped the stop and hooded the stop bolt and locked in a full left deflection. The mechanic discovered the problem on the ground after going thought his all clear checks before giving her back to me. It was in having my turbo lines replaced as they were leaking. There was no way to UN-seize them from the cockpit. It literally had to be pried off the stop from INSIDE the wing, and would re-hook at will for demonstration purposes. The hardware is relatively new as an RSTOL kit was installed about 2 years ago by Sierra Industries. You can see from the second picture I will post where they drilled twice, and obviously measured once for the stop bracket. Yes I have let them know and await their response. I am still in shock!

2 of 12 2/25/2008 8:53 AM Edited by (02/23/08 11:51 PM) #583721-02/23/08 11:53 PM Attachment (1 downloads) Picture of

2 2 of 12 2/25/2008 8:53 AM Edited by (02/23/08 11:51 PM) # /23/08 11:53 PM Attachment (1 downloads) Picture of back side of bracket Edited by (02/23/08 11:54 PM) # /23/08 11:56 PM Attachment (3 downloads) Aileron Position!

3 of 12 2/25/2008 8:53 AM Edited by (02/23/08 11:57 PM) Mike Ciholas 1974 Cessna T210 07/11/03 Posts: 3424 Loc: Evansville, IN, USA #583727-02/24/08 12:32 AM Check for witness marks on the bellcrank

3 3 of 12 2/25/2008 8:53 AM Edited by (02/23/08 11:57 PM) Mike Ciholas 1974 Cessna T210 07/11/03 Posts: 3424 Loc: Evansville, IN, USA # /24/08 12:32 AM Check for witness marks on the bellcrank flange. This will tell where the stop has normally been hitting and how close it was to being snagged before. The entire purpose of the thing seems to be a stop for the bellcrank. Given the holes, someone moved it down too far. Seems very sloppy to me for a primary flight control. Mike C. All rights for the original parts of this post are placed in the public domain for any use. Stephan White 414, 1959 Cessna HP Constant Speed # /24/08 12:49 AM, Very spooky! I wonder what degree bank you would be making at this position. And more important, what would you have done if this happened while airborne?

4 of 12 2/25/2008 8:53 AM 01/10/02 Posts: 1460 Loc: Bend, Oregon Would enough rudder be available to fly more or less straight? And how much power would be best?

4 4 of 12 2/25/2008 8:53 AM 01/10/02 Posts: 1460 Loc: Bend, Oregon Would enough rudder be available to fly more or less straight? And how much power would be best? If not enough then all one could do would be to vary the radius of the arc and hope that a dry lake is nearby. Memories of an Iowa cornfield. Stephan Charles Robertson Member Re: Oh Crap! Ailerons Seized on RSTOL [Re: Stephan White] # /24/08 06:20 AM : what would you have done if this happened while airborne? 02/10/05 Posts: 1586 Loc: Saint Louis, MO Erwin J. Klassen 1974 Cessna 182P 08/01/06 Posts: 861 Loc: South American Chaco Wait for the inevitable... You wonder how many crashes are caused by things like this. # /24/08 07:15 AM Well, that aint good. I will go out and check the hardware in my rstol wing. I dont often use full deflection on the ailerons, but have come close a few times during a takeoff and in a slipping approach. What is up at Sierra industries that allows such a sloppy installation. Erwin ps I would say that your mechanics are worth thier wieght in gold. Edited by Erwin J. Klassen (02/24/08 07:18 AM) Av Edidin Member # /24/08 08:02 AM 04/07/05 Posts: 758 Loc: KPAO John M. Efinger 1967 Cessna 172 Looks like even after all the drilling before measuring the bracket is still out of position to allow the stop to hit properly centered. Forgive my ignorance, but why was there a need to add a stop for the RSTOL kit? Is this a "drooped ailerons" type of mod? # /24/08 08:52 AM Glad to see this was found on the ground. Should have been found on assembly or past Annuals? They have DER's at Sierra and I am pretty certain they would expedite a repair for this to relocate the stop bracket. It is surprising to see that it left there like this as I have

5 5 of 12 2/25/2008 8:53 AM 05/22/02 Posts: 2925 Loc: Ft. Worth, TX been to their facility and met with many of the personnel from the owner to the shop help. I would also be interested if the Up/Dn Aileron travel meets the drawing spec at the 10 & 20 deg Flap settings since I have found several variances at this setting? I have the installation drawings (cost $ from Sierra) if you need any dimensions. My profile has contact info... IA/AP, "67" 172H John M. Efinger 1967 Cessna 172 Re: Oh Crap! Ailerons Seized on RSTOL [Re: Av Edidin] # /24/08 08:54 AM : 05/22/02 Posts: 2925 Loc: Ft. Worth, TX Is this a "drooped ailerons" type of mod? It will droop with various Flap position & vary the Aileron authority as well for each position of Flaps. IA/AP, "67" 172H Erwin J. Klassen 1974 Cessna 182P Re: Oh Crap! Ailerons Seized on RSTOL [Re: John M. Efinger] # /24/08 09:07 AM 08/01/06 Posts: 861 Loc: South American Chaco Some critisize the rstol kit as being to heavy, expensive and complicated. That may be, but mine came with the plane (empty wieght 1700#) and I find the combination of rstol and VG's to be very desirable for my kind of flying. Although the aileron authority is reduced for crosswind landings with flaps, I have not yet had a problem with this (the VG's help to bring back lost aileron authority) With this combo you can achieve slow speeds with less steep deck angles. Erwin Re: Oh Crap! Ailerons Seized on RSTOL [Re: Erwin J. Klassen] # /24/08 12:55 PM Edwin I agree, The RSTOL for me is a must have as I had the install done only two years ago. (13au) They do not do very many anymore and it is starting to show. We have a dirt strip at 7000 msl in the mountains, trees on one side and a whole lot of nothing on the other. I would not have a heavy aircraft un-turbocharged and without an RSTOL for what I make this plane do. I agree that the Robertson is a phenomenal addition, I am just glad we caught this. Like I said, there was no way to dislodge it from outside or in the cockpit.

6 of 12 2/25/2008 8:53 AM Jim Gandee 1977 Cessna T210M #583806-02/24/08 12:57 PM 09/18/04 Posts: 1774 Loc: KFUL, S. Cal., Holy S%$t Batman!

6 6 of 12 2/25/2008 8:53 AM Jim Gandee 1977 Cessna T210M # /24/08 12:57 PM 09/18/04 Posts: 1774 Loc: KFUL, S. Cal., Holy S%$t Batman!!!! I'd be asking your A/P where he would like to take his wife to dinner and then get him a gift card...maybe two! Kudos to him!!!! JG Mike Re: Oh Crap! Ailerons Seized on RSTOL [Re: Mike Ciholas] # /24/08 01:01 PM Attachment (3 downloads) We already checked for witness marks, and they told the story. I just did not want to have picture overload. This is what is shows:

7 7 of 12 2/25/2008 8:53 AM Edited by (02/24/08 01:02 PM) Jim, Re: Oh Crap! Ailerons Seized on RSTOL [Re: Jim Gandee] # /24/08 01:12 PM That is exactly what I will be doing. This is one of those stories better left untold to the wife. I did anyways, and at least I know she loves me now. H.S. batman sums it up nicely! Especially since I have 5 kids that all love to fly. I fill all 6 seats often! My oldest is 16 and already solo d, my youngest is 1! Michael A. Hater 1982 Cessna 172P # /24/08 01:20 PM, 11/30/07 Posts: 39 Loc: Cincinnati, OH Those photos are terrifying - like looking death in the face! And the misalignment of the original stop against the flange of the crank shows HORRIBLE workmanship. The folks at Sierra owe you and the A&P a huge debt for catching it before your family sued them, and they better bend over backwards to make it right. Good luck. By the way, my understanding on rudder vs aileron effectiveness is that ailerons almost always dominate on small aircraft. On crosswind landings, you run out of rudder before you run out of aileron. Therefore, had this happened in flight, you could not have cross-controlled to maintain level non-turning flight in a slip. In fact, with full aileron deflection, you would have rolled over into a graveyard spiral most likely (since you couldn't neutralize the aileron and stop the overbanking tendency), and I would bet that an accelerated stall/spin would follow after the attempt to cross-control and pull out of the descent with elevator. I don't think it would have been survivable. Glad you're still with us. Mike Re: Oh Crap! Ailerons Seized on RSTOL [Re: Michael A. Hater] # /24/08 01:57 PM : my understanding on rudder vs aileron effectiveness is that ailerons almost always dominate on small aircraft. On crosswind landings, you run out of rudder before you run out of aileron. Therefore, had this happened in flight, you could not have cross-controlled to maintain level non-turning flight in a slip. In fact, with full aileron deflection, you would have rolled over into a graveyard spiral most likely (since you couldn't neutralize the aileron and stop the overbanking tendency), and I would bet that an accelerated stall/spin would follow after the attempt to cross-control and pull out of the descent with elevator

8 8 of 12 2/25/2008 8:53 AM I don t even think it would have even gotten that far, My guess is that in the attempt to control with rudder, (somewhere in the 12,000ft fall where I usually fly), the fuselage would be over-torqued and the tail fall off. They love to blame 210's for that. Or during all the flipping around the wings would break off, if not already done so by the 250kt spiral. Jeff Hurst 1981 Cessna TR182 # /24/08 02:12 PM Tagging on here: 07/05/05 Posts: 863 Loc: Tahoe City, CA My chest got tight and my throat dry when I saw the jambed control. My god!!! The resulting crash would probably dislodge it and it would be another pilot error, loss of control, or another black mark against 210's--all undeserved. Thank god your AP found this. Have you had a chance to check other one? Where is Sierra Industries located? Jeff Edited by Jeff Hurst (02/24/08 02:15 PM) Re: Oh Crap! Ailerons Seized on RSTOL [Re: Jeff Hurst] # /24/08 02:51 PM Other one looks great, I also have a picture of what the good one looks like if anyone is interested. Sierra in is Uvalde Texas, sijet.com Mike Ciholas 1974 Cessna T210 # /24/08 04:21 PM : 07/11/03 Posts: 3424 Loc: Evansville, IN, USA We already checked for witness marks, and they told the story. I just did not want to have picture overload. Well, the first thing I would do is turn the bolt around (head inside bracket, tip of bolt touches stop) so it has no edge to catch on. Even if you get it past the stop, then you have a chance to get it back without it hanging on you.

9 9 of 12 2/25/2008 8:53 AM Mike C. All rights for the original parts of this post are placed in the public domain for any use. Scott Dyer 1978 Cessna T210M # /24/08 07:11 PM 11/10/02 Posts: 1332 Loc: KHPN Jeff Hurst 1981 Cessna TR182 I'd like to see that, for comparison, as the bad one isn't evident to my unschooled eyes. # /24/08 07:14 PM : 07/05/05 Posts: 863 Loc: Tahoe City, CA Other one looks great, I also have a picture of what the good one looks like if anyone is interested. Sierra in is Uvalde Texas, sijet.com I'd like to see the other one, especially if done right--would be a good comparison. Jeff Re: Oh Crap! Ailerons Seized on RSTOL [Re: Jeff Hurst] # /24/08 09:48 PM Attachment (1 downloads) Here is the right side.

10 10 of 12 2/25/2008 8:53 AM Edited by (02/24/08 09:49 PM) Re: Oh Crap! Ailerons Seized on RSTOL [Re: Jeff Hurst] # /24/08 09:54 PM Attachment (1 downloads) Here is another of the left.

11 11 of 12 2/25/2008 8:53 AM Edited by (02/24/08 09:55 PM) Mike Lauder 1976 Cessna T210L Re: Oh Crap! Ailerons Seized on RSTOL ] # /25/08 02:44 AM [Re: 07/31/06 Posts: 73 Loc: Denver CO (KAPA) Since this isn't faulty manufacturing, just sloppy installation, I am guessing that no service bulletin would be issued? If I had a RSTOL plane I wouldn't have a very warm fuzzy feeling right now. Kudos to your mechanic. Makes you realize the importance of the "flight controls free and clear" on the check list... Pages: 1 Previous Index Next Threaded Extra information

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