RICHARD DEATS INTERVIEWING REV. JAMES LAWSON. Transcription by Wendy Clarissa Geiger, January 22, 2014

Transcription

1 RICHARD DEATS INTERVIEWING REV. JAMES LAWSON Transcription by Wendy Clarissa Geiger, January 22, 2014 [Conversation I couldn t understand about Richard s cross] RD: Well, I got up this morning. I felt a little cross. I decided to wear it. JL (laughs) RD: Jim, when did nonviolence and the nonviolence of the Gospel of Jesus first make an impact on your life, as far as you can remember? JL: I remember that very well. I was about ten years of age. I had rushed home from school Morse Van (?) School and, I was in the fifth grade or fourth grade, as I recall. And, my mother met me in the kitchen. And, she was working there. And, she told me almost immediately that I have an errand for you to run. So, she gave me instructions. And, I went out the back door and charged up the street. It was an errand to Massillon. I got to the main street I needed, made a left turn to complete the errand. Just after I walked, maybe 40, 50 feet, there was an automobile parked on my side of the street. And, a little white child was in the automobile with the windows open. And, he yelled out o the

2 window, Nigger! So, I went over and slapped the child and went on my way, finished the errand, and returned a few minutes later. I noticed the car was gone. And, I ran on home, went into the back door to the kitchen where my mother was still occupied and reported the errand to her. And then, reported to her this incident on the street. Now, my parents had imbued us with a sort of pride and self-worth feelings that we on the streets of Massillon, Ohio, fought back growing up in Massillon, Ohio. And, I was accustomed to doing that. And, my mother had her back to me. She was working at the stove in front of me to my left. And, I was sitting by this time in my favorite chair by the kitchen door as we visited. And, as I told her this, she did not turn to me. But, I could never forget her saying, What good did that do, Jimmy? And, I shall never forget that my whole world came to a standstill. We had a fairly noisy house, with three younger brothers. And, I remember nothing except that the whole world came to a standstill. And, Mom went on to say, I think she said something like, There must be a better way. She reminded me who I was. She reminded me that I was a Christian, that because of the love of God, we know who we were. And, she added, Your name is still Jimmy. It s not anything else.

3 But, during all of our conversation, my, it was though everything was absolutely quiet. And, I felt in my, that something had happened, that something had changed forever. And, a part of that change was my decision there on the spot: I will no longer smack children for that or fight others over that. I will no longer on, on playing field, when we got angry, fight, when someone else wants to fight on the basketball court will never again engage in a fight. I ll find some other way. And then, of course, that was profoundly confirmed in my study of the Gospels, because, I was reading the Bible for myself, and in the end, concentrating on the life of Jesus. And so, it was confirmed in my reading of the Gospels especially, in the life of Jesus. And so, from that time on proceeded to experiment and work on a better way. RD: So, it was a defining moment. JL: Absolutely. It s still with me. RD: And, years later, when you were in India, you decided to go into the ministry. JL: I decided in high school to go into the ministry. And, while in college felt that I wanted to go live overseas for a time. And, um, in college,

4 however, I did meet the Fellowship of Reconciliation in 1947 and A. J. Muste and a whole slew of names out of that. That opened up to me a vista of books and reading Gandhi, who I was acquainted with but not in any depth. I was acquainted with him through newspapers which came to my home. Because, the Black newspapers in the United States thought Gandhi was very, very important. And, what he was doing was often in the papers. And, in college read Gandhi s autobiography. RD: And, what year was that? JL: This was 47 through 50. So then, I began to study Gandhi a great deal. Tolstoy. Thoreau. I read a lot of the books out of Europe and the resistance there. Andre Trocmé. Philip Benier [Bin-yaer is how Jim pronounced the name]. Um, what s his name? Dolce. Then, of course, read more Nehru and Gandhi, especially. And, um, then by my senior year, I was trying to not cooperate with conscription. So, that meant a prison term. And, I had signed up to go to Zimbabwe to teach and coach in a high school. But my prison term prevented that. So, later, I still wanted to go overseas. And, India was available through the Methodist Church. And, the job of campus minister and coaching job was

5 available in India. So, I took that job, that post. And so, in India I did get to travel where Gandhi had walked. His most central ashram in Wor-dah (how Jim pronounced the name), which was about miles from where I was stationed. And, met a variety of Gandhians and some of the F.O.R. people who were Gandhian. Also, talked to a whole variety of people about Gandhi and tried to hear out and to understand Nehru s positions. I did get a chance to meet Nehru on a couple of occasions, which was really very notable. Um. So, in my three years of work there, Gandhian studies was what I read about and talked, taught about. RD: So, this was not long after his assassination. JL: Yes. This was 53 through 56. So, he was assassinated January 30th, So, this was within ten years. RD: And, you came back when the Montgomery Bus Boycott JL: The Montgomery Bus Boycott began while I was in India. And, of course, that was something: the use of nonviolence on the part of African Americans was a very important thing for me. I d done some of it myself. I d participated in some of the CORE things. It was my practice in that field, especially. So, I knew, I knew of the Montgomery Bus Boycott when

6 I came back in It was still going on when I returned in the fall. And so, I followed it again. I did not make a visit to Montgomery, which I should have done. Visited and met King then. But, I did meet King February of 1957 at Oberlin, where he was speaking and where I had enrolled in my theological studies. And, we met and talked. Had a chance to eat lunch together, in fact, that day, with just a small group of us where at various times I had him all to myself, really. And so, we talked at length and discovered our common backgrounds, common themes and so forth and so on. And, I mentioned to him that while in college I had long wanted to work in the South especially, because of segregation as a place of work, and that I wanted to do that still. And, his response was: Come now! Don t wait. Don t put it off too long. We need you NOW. The Movement doesn t have anyone with your background, your experience. So, you should come as soon as you could come. RD: Then, you went to Nashville? JL: Yes. That prompted me to drop our of theological studies for a while and move to Nashville in late winter in early winter, cause I was. I don t remember when I got to Nashville. But, I do remember one of my first assignments was the first SCLC meeting not the first, but the first in 1958.

7 In February of 58, they met in Columbia, South Carolina. And, one of my first assignments on moving to the South was being at that meeting, being involved in the afternoon workshops on nonviolence, to help lead them. RD: And, when did you become a staff member of F.O.R? JL: Yes. That s when I became a staff member. Yes. Because, when I let A. J. Muste know that I was moving south to work, to live, he said, Well, that s good. Let me talk to you before you decide where you re going to live and when you re moving. So, a few days later, and he called me back and said he d like to invite me to become the Southern Secretary of F.O.R. So, that s how I became so, when I moved south in 58, I was the Southern Secretary of F.O.R. RD: And, your trainings in nonviolence were really that was the beginning? JL: Yeah. Yes. That s exactly right. I immediately began traveling around the South doing both counseling and many workshops, speaking on campuses and to small clusters of F.O.R. people, meeting with the SCLC, going into some of the troubled situations and doing workshops wherever we

8 could design them excuse me, wherever we had groups of people interested. And, in that connection then, because I was in Nashville, that I joined the National Christian Leadership Council, which was the first newly organized affiliate of SCLC, and became, therefore, the action chair of their executive committee. And, decided as a part of that that we wanted to do a series of workshops in Nashville in 58 in the winter of 58 primarily aimed at selecting a project for nonviolent action in Nashville. And, decided in 59 in the spring of 59 that we would begin a desegregation of downtown Nashville. And, that meant that we did workshops in nonviolence in September, as I recall, in We began to train community people and students from various campuses on nonviolent action, nonviolent behavior, on the theology of nonviolence, the Gandhian approach. The Montgomery Bus Boycott, of course, was a primary field in teaching so forth and so on. That, that s where then systematic teaching with the same people over a period of time began in Nashville. RD: When did you start working, you and Glenn Smiley did some

9 JL: Glenn was my immediate supervisor. He was Director of Field Service. And, we initially met in Nashville, and he helped me to get settled. And, in our first trips in that winter of 58, he and I traveled together. Then, we did meet at various times for different things. I think that we came up to the spring meeting of F.O.R. We drove up together and had some things together that way and had some interesting experiences traveling through the South together. That may have been the last time we traveled together. I do not quite remember. RD: Then, when did you take a church and pastor? JL: I took a church again in August of That was a church in Shelbyville, Tennessee, which was about 50 miles south of Nashville. So, that was my first church in the South. RD: And, you went to Memphis, or what? JL: Then, I was at Shelbyville long enough to build a new building. And, I only preached in the new building once when the Bishop said, I m moving you. So, he moved me to Nashville in the middle of June of RD: Nashville?

10 JL: I mean moving to Memphis in the middle of June And I spent 12 years as pastor of Centenary United Methodist Church in Memphis. And, continued at that time traveling for SCLC, because, in September of 1960, King invited me to be the Director of Nonviolence Education for SCLC. So, I continued doing workshops for staff, in national meetings, in retreats and, also, in places like Little Rock, Arkansas. I did Little Rock actually in 59 as F.O.R. Secretary. And, that reminds me, because, that s right, the first trip to Little Rock was with Glenn Smiley somewhere in I think this is right. But then, yes, that s right, 1958, because the Little Rock schools were closed over desegregation. Because of the fierce opposition that occurred in 57 around Central High School. 58, they reopened and the nine Black students entered the school. Glenn and I did on that occasion that s right, in the Fall of 58 drove to Little Rock together and met these nine students for the first time and did an evening workshop with them on nonviolence. But it was a different kind of a workshop, because our first question to them was: What are the worst things that are happening to you? I will never forget that experience, because it dismayed me so much, because they were told not to fight back.

11 Now, we know what that strategy was about. But, my own thesis was: you don t tell vigorous young people in a tension-packed situation not to fight back. You give them another way to fight back. And, I was dismayed with that strategy. When Glenn and I met with them and heard their stories, and then we suggested to them that it was wrong for people to tell you to go into this hostile situation and tell you not to fight back. That dehumanizes you. And, we suggested then there was a better way of fighting back. And then, we did role playing and brainstorming against some of the things that happened to them how they might respond. And, they said at the time: it was as though they had been walking in darkness all this time, and suddenly, somebody turned the lights on for them. And, there were some wonderful stories. Because, then, I went back any number of times that year. And, in fact, went to Ernest Green s graduation who s the first Black student to graduate from Central High. And, asked his mother and he if they would like me to invite Martin Luther King Jr. to come. And so, called Martin and said, Will you come? And, he said, Yes, of course, I ll come. And, they sent him an invitation. So, I went back a number of occasions in and out of Little Rock after that, meeting and talking with them. And, also, had the privilege this was academic year Also, this group expanded to

12 include White students who were trying to fight back. And then, a handful of clergy who were, also, involved in trying to stop the harassment and create a better climate in the school for these youngsters. RD: Maybe, that s because stop the bell ring. JL: The bell ring. It did. It did. RD: And, what are some of the most difficult moments? I don t want to throw you a curve when you re not expecting it. But. And, being a long distance runner. JL: Okay. RD: be a long distance runner. There s a cost to that. Keep your eyes on the prize. JL: Alright. Richard, it s important to say that to speak of, rather the significant role F.O.R. played in the whole movement of the 60s. We were not one of the visible organizations many times. But, we provided major counsel and leadership in the area of nonviolence both in the people that we produced Bayard Rustin, Glenn Smiley, who were in and out of the Montgomery Bus Boycott in 55, 56, 57 and then various ways, counselors for those people in those years.

13 Then, also, in the use of the Montgomery Boycott s comic book which we distributed by the tens of thousands across the South. I know I carried them wherever I went, and Glenn Smiley did the same. I guess, other people did the same. It was a magnificent communicator of nonviolence and the Montgomery Bus Boycott everywhere. Then, also, in the fact, fundamentally, we gave we helped so many leaders. So many people developed nonviolence understanding and style and commitment, and, nonviolence with a spiritual and moral base. In most instances in the South, nonviolence was fundamentally a Biblical, Christian based. And, that, it seems to me, paved the way for so much to happen. You may be aware that Alvin Morris, in his book, The History and Origins of the Civil Rights Movement, credits F.O.R., as one specifically, as a pioneering group that laid the framework and laid the groundwork for, for the Movement. RD: He calls it a movement half-way house. JL: Yeah. Exactly. And then, of course, others including Jesse Jackson will say that I mentored King in many ways throughout those years and then, also, mentored him and so many other people in the Movement. So, F.O.R. being almost in so many ways such an invisible organization in the

14 movement for desegregation, in the movement of getting reconciliation in the matters of racism and segregation in the United States has had really a very formidable role. RD: It reminds me of the Jesuit motto: You can get a lot done if you don t care who gets the credit. JL: Yes. Exactly. RD: Being there, eager to serve in whatever ways possible. JL: And, being available to people who in the midst of various difficulties wanted to talk with F.O.R. people about how to do this and how do we face this, and how do we understand the way in which we get things done in this situation. And, that was a part of my work. I called it trouble-shooting at the time. But, I would get calls to go into Birmingham, Alabama, in 58 and 59 for various incidents that would happen with Fred Shuttlesworth and others. Calls to go into Mississippi. Calls to go into Little Rock and elsewhere, all during those years. RD: And, those were principally to do workshops in those?

15 JL: In some instances, yes. But, I m speaking specifically, now, those calls where something happened, like the bombing of Fred Shuttlesworth s house. And so, I got calls both from the National Council of Churches. I was SCLC I was F.O.R. person. I got calls from there. I got calls from SCLC. I would go in and view the scene and see what I could offer. RD: And then, because of its importance both historically and nationally and in your own ministry when you were in Memphis, would you say a little about the sanitation workers strike and your appeal to their? JL: Right. Right. I was pasturing Centenary United Methodist in Memphis at the time of the sanitation strike. I had had contact and relationships with a number of the organizers. I already had a reputation among some of the labor union people as being a pastor friendly to the whole business of organizing working people, which I was and am. So, when the strike occurred in 68, February 12th, as I recall, 1968, I was immediately sympathetic. I had just gotten back in the town when it happened. But, immediately began to loan my support and encouragement and voice and helping to raise money and to offer food and clothing. Because, these were men some of whom worked for 75 cents an hour at

16 that time. And, picking up the garbage around the city had no tenure rights, no health benefits, got no help on uniforms. Completely impoverishing wages. And so, in time, because of the way in which the city handled the whole matter, we had to make our support very, very visible in terms of walking with the men and going to public meetings with the men. And so, then, in late February we had a peaceful march with, well, probably 12 to 15 to a thousand of us down Main Street. And, the police, without provocation, broke us up deliberately provoking some of the sanitation workers with mace whom they had marked and whom they wanted to gas, and also, some of the leaders of the union. And also, some of us who were clergy. So, they broke up the march. And, when that happened, then, it galvanized more support for the strike. And, the community with the consent of the union called for a strategy committee. And, I was asked to become chairperson of that strategy committee then to continue with two-fold task of supporting the strike and then seeing to it that the workers had food and the kind of economic relief so they wouldn t go under entirely with their strike. So, that s how I got more specifically involved in it and more urgently involved in it.

17 And, one of our strategies at that time was to immediately begin to invite national figures into Memphis to speak at the mass meetings that we, also, immediately began. We had mass meetings in the morning. But, these were largely of the union men and their families. But, now we began them at night so that many more working people could come to those meetings for information, inspiration, encouragement, and to help us mobilize the community. And, along the way, of course, was the name of Martin Luther King Jr., who most of us considered the singular voice for justice at that time. So, I was assigned to specifically call him, which I did, and so, therefore, basically, invited him to come be the speaker at one of our mass meetings, to which he immediately agreed. But, of course, with his overwhelming schedule, he laughed and said, I ll do it, and I ll have to work it out. And I said, Yes, I know you will. And, I ll be patient and informed about what s going on. And, I had told him that we didn t want him to come immediately, that we would prefer him to be able to come sometime, perhaps in two to three weeks. And, we agreed we would keep in touch, so that he would be informed and who I d contact when I couldn t reach him directly. So, we did all of that.

18 And, he eventually called me to inform me that he had arranged to come to Memphis for our executive committee meeting that had been scheduled for Atlanta or someplace else. And, he put it in Memphis on a Monday in March. I think it was, maybe, the 18th of March. And, that he would then speak that night at the mass meeting, which he did. One of the anecdotes of this is that I kept him informed momentarily, oftentimes. And, when I picked him up at the airport on the 18th, I decided to play a joke on him, because he was not aware that we had the largest auditorium available to Black people in the South, in Memphis. The Church of God in Christ Auditorium was available, Mason Temple. And, it seated some 8,000 people. So, that meant we could have large mass meetings like we could never have in Nashville or Birmingham or St. Augustine, Florida, or Danville, Virginia. We could never have those kinds of mass meetings where 8-, 9-, 10,000 people could gather. So, I had told him this and said we suspect we ll have at least 8,000 people. But, we had already filled it a couple of times by then. So, when he came into town, I said, as we were walking down the concourse, Martin, um, I told you we were going to have, perhaps, 10,000 people. And, I m sorry. It s not going to be that way. And, his smiling face changed. (laughter) And, I could see him thinking the worst. And then, I said, It looks like

19 we ll have a crowd of 25,000 people, (laughter) and, he sort of burst out laughing all over. And, that was true, because we had this temple is a huge contraption with aisles that are, perhaps, eight feet wide, all over the place. And, when I came through there on my way to the airport, we already had shoulder-toshoulder in the aisles, in the balcony, everywhere. And then, of course, we d put up speakers for the parking lot, as well. So, we knew that we had more than doubled the 8,000 or 10,000, and we thought, considering this place. RD: So, this was his first visit? JL: His first visit for the strike. And, um, it was a great day, a great night and a marvelous sense of community, Richard. I do not know if I ve ever been in such a meeting a mass meeting and an urgent situation. And, our standing shoulder-to-shoulder in the place. Every seat taken. And yet, the camaraderie, the gentleness of spirit, the sense of bondage and solidarity was extraordinary. When the baskets were passed for the offering, they were these little tubs paper tub baskets. And, I watched it from the stage. And, those things moved as though it was like a military performance, all the way

20 across this huge crowd of people, just wonderful to see and to be a part of that experience. And, Martin King was so elated and inspired by that that when he sat down after his speech, he said, I ought to come back and lead a march. And, we said, That would be fine. So, that s how he returned to Memphis on two or three other occasions. And, of course, he was there for a march on April the 3rd, when he was assassinated on the 4th of April in Memphis. I said assassinated, but I prefer to call it a crucifixion. Because, if you speak of a prophet in the midst of a complex situation, in the midst of a nation that is in turmoil but is also, in spiritual trouble because it does not want to get obedient to its own ideals and its own visions of what it is. And, you have, on the one side, military intelligence and the FBI following this man wherever he goes. And, you have major figures in government calling him an enemy of the country. Especially, since by this time he has become the symbol of both the movement to stop the war in Vietnam and the movement of justice for the poor and racial justice, as well, in the country. And then, when you have religious figures over radio and television calling Martin King not a pastor or a prophet or a theologian but a communist and a subversive and a man of no moral standing. And, this was the common, from the people who today are major voices in this society. And, this scares

21 me a great deal, personally. And, so then, this man is assassinated while he s enmeshed in this struggle that he represents for America becoming a different kind of country. And, I maintain that s the essence of what crucifixion is about in the light of the life of Jesus. RD: And, the meaning this has for us, however he was killed, by whatever forces (that s a whole other variety), his being cut down at this young age, when the movement was at this, you know. What do you see? How do you interpret the meaning of that for us? JL: I feel pretty strongly that King was the zenith of the prophetic spiritual movement in the 20th century in the United States represented what the future of the nation represented. And, the way in which the assassination took place plus the way in which, also, a wholesale effort to reverse both what he said and what he did and to unwrap the gains that had begun, the programs that were put in place that could undo the poverty, could dismantle racism and segregation, the effort to put people in place who represent the foes that King struggled against, to convert them and make them friends. That greatly disturbs me and makes me feel that unless there can be something of a revival of who King was and what he represented, then this

22 nation could very well perish as we now know it. That the cleansing that would have to take place will be more than any of us want. I recall how Abraham Lincoln said about the Civil War: that, perhaps, it represented the necessity of blood having to be shed because the nation could not deal with the issue of slavery, which was a moral issue. And, in the same sense, because the nation is not able to deal with the issues of violence (while King represented nonviolence) with the issue of people being poor and excluded from the possibilities of supporting themselves. And, while King represented a call for social and economic justice, while the nation has become more racist in certain ways than ever before, while King represented the call to end racism and to open up a community of brotherhood and sisterhood. That gives me a great deal of pause about my country today and what the future may be. RD: Now, Jim, many years later, after you ve had decades in the ministry of the United Methodist Church with a very distinguished career, not only as a pastor and preacher and leader in many social justice movements, you ve come back into the F.O.R., in the leadership position this time, not staff but our National Council chair. Why have you chosen to give your energies

23 once again to F.O.R. in a different capacity now on the elected Council? And, what do you see as the challenge for the nonviolence movement? JL: Well, I ve returned because, while I ve been invited to run for the National Council in the past, I always felt I could not. That I was already I had already had too many boards and meetings that took me away from Los Angeles. But then, this opened up four years ago, now, where some of my major responsibilities within the United Methodist Church changed, and I was freer so I could add some other things. And, when the invitation came to be available for National Council, I was pleased to do it. I was returning home. In another way, it was now becoming more involved in F.O.R. for the first time in a number of years. Thirdly, I guess I have to say, I still count the F.O.R. as a critical organization, a critical movement in this country for social change, if not in the world. Because, I know full well the way in which I.F.O.R. was helpful in places like the Philippines, Eastern Europe, and elsewhere. And, that much of the change that came in 1989, 90 was a consequence, basically, of nonviolent resistance across many years but, especially, in the last couple of years preceding 1989 and So, this is a chance, now, for me to in a sense return to an organization that has meant so much to me and to do what I can to be involved in it and a representative of the movement in this respect.

24 RD: Jim, as a long-distance runner in the work of nonviolence, what stands out for you as, perhaps, what has been most difficult, or some disappointments, and then, what has been fulfilling? Where have in keeping your eyes on the prize where have you found nourishment and fulfillment and regeneration of your hope that you obviously have and continue to manifest? JL: Well, I suspect my greatest disappointment has been in the movement of Black people for social justice, getting diminished and scattered. And, not being able to, in a sense, pull together a post-martin Luther King Jr. vision that could inform everyone: elected officials, professional people in the Black community, the churches, the young people, especially. But then, also, could inform strategy and action for change. So, that in some ways, we are as a movement at our weakest, now, when you have the Christian Right and the religious Right, the Christian Right, at their strongest, at the rejection of a society with liberty and justice for all and equal opportunity for all and the people who must be the ones who are the major opponents. Maybe, of that view, we are less organized and less together with less of a vision that could include the nation. So, I think that s my largest disappointment.

25 But, throughout all of this, I find myself being refreshed and rejuvenated and inspired and taught and encouraged by all kinds of important pieces of the human family and the human race. That, I believe more than ever before, I m meant to nourish us: my own immediate family, my circle of friends, the opportunity where just this year we get Los Angeles to pass a living wage ordinance which briefly says that every business that receives a contract from the city government must pay its workers a living wage, a wage by which a family of four can at least provide for themselves the necessities of life and thereby have a chance to shape their own environment. And then, to be involved, just as of last week, trying to make this happen for some 3,000 workers who at the airport who are Black and Chinese and Japanese and Ethiopians and Ghanaians and Hispanics from Central America and from Mexico and from the Caribbean. To see this magnificently diverse group of people, many of them bright young people who are trying to advance themselves but have these minimal-paying jobs, because that s the best they could find for the time-being while they re trying to put themselves through school and whatnot. So, really talented people who want to stand in the full dignity of their own lives, who are now working with us to make that living wage become reality for them. Because, there are certain forces in the airport industry who are resisting it.

26 So, it is continuing to be involved in movements such as that. It s continuing to be involved in my own congregation, in the worship and the preaching, with teaching and the journey there. All of these things tend to rejuvenate me and keep me hoping, keep me thinking in terms that the future is still held by God. And, God is still trying to shape and reshape a different kind of future. It s interesting, and I question, because one of the big tasks that I had to tackle in the last year and half has been obeying the city ordinance that our sanctuary would be retrofitted that is, made more secure for a heavy earthquake anywhere nearby. And, I have an honor to do that, because that involves building. But, the congregation has responded very well to it- and, especially, our leadership has been, had good consensus that has helped us to move through what could ve been major errors. But, because they in the Spirit made the best decisions for us right straight down the line. And, now, to see it almost, maybe, a month or six weeks away to completion, I am increasingly encouraged by the fact that we re coming again. So, all of these different ways are ways in which I have been strengthened by the Spirit to keep running.

27 RD: Maybe, just one final question? Your own ministry has been as a United Methodist minister. But, you have had a lot of experience beyond, not only the Methodist Church, but the whole Christian movement. And, F.O.R. has tried to become more inclusive and interfaith in its outreach. Because, yes, Jim, nonviolence is not a Christian-owned vision. As you look into the 21 st century, and you see the world religions in all their glory as well as their shame, what kind of, do you see an interfaith movement of people committed to nonviolence emerging out of the current situation? JL: Well, here again, I feel the Fellowship of Reconciliation has been a genuine leader. I remember the first pledge as a Statement of Purpose I signed back in 1947 for F.O.R. And, I just today read, again rather, the current Statement. And, I have to admit, my own journey has me where the F.O.R. Statement is. I see very clearly that Christianity has tended to define itself in ways that in my judgment narrows the message I hear daily through the Bible both the prophets and Jesus. So, I am personally, have moved to that place where I dispute that kind of Christianity and, I do not preach it. On the contrary, I preach against it. And, personally, I teach against it in my own congregation. And, I do try to teach a religion that is more open to the fact

28 that God works in many sundry ways. And, God works through all peoples. And, it s not through one channel, but many, many channels. I know this in my own experience. I know this in my own journey. I know this in my work with Buddhist and Jewish people and Muslim people in the City of Los Angeles, as well. So, here, again, it seems to me that F.O.R. is doing pioneering work. And, I m pleased to be a part of that. And, pleased to try to in whatever way I can, encourage spirituality that wants the various religious groups to: put the accent on compassion and justice; on hoping for a different kind of world; of becoming critical of the status quo as it divides peoples and dominates people, rather than bringing people together; as it insists that the world s resources aimed at militarization and war must, of course, deplete the Earth, must, of course, cause great inequity to come to the surface, in so many different ways. That, of course, allows the power structures of wealth and greed and abusive use of power to dominate in so many different ways. Surely, if the world religions can move away from quarreling about crossing the tees and dotting the eyes and begin to concentrate on love and truth and common ground and creation and common ground as people today that, in itself, may be the great weapon of God by which this world in which we live with its militarization can be changed.

29 I recall that Jesus once said to some people in the church of his day, that you tithe the smallest amount of grain and spice that you grow, that you tithe 10% of everything. But, you neglect the weightier matters of the law, and, he said, namely: justice, love, faith. And then, he said, you ought to continue to tithe everything. These things you ought to do without neglecting justice, love, and faith. So, if the religions of the world and if Christianity, especially, is such a dominant power religion in the world could begin to emphasize compassion and love and justice and faith and mercy, it could mean the 21 st century would be a real revolution for the human family. RD: And, an assured Beloved Community. JL: And, an assured Beloved Community. Exactly. RD: Thank you, Jim. JL: Thank you, Richard.