The Axe Files - Ep. 7: Jessica Yellin

Transcription

1 The Axe Files - Ep. 7: Jessica Yellin Released Oct. 26, 2015 [00:00:09] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And now, from the University of Chicago Institute of Politics, "The Axe Files" with your host David Axelrod. DAVID AXELROD, "THE AXE FILES" HOST: When I was working on the Obama campaign for president in 2007 and 2008 and then when I went to the White House, a ubiquitous presence on the scene was Jessica Yellin who was a correspondent for CNN. An incisive correspondent, always, always in the front lines asking tough questions. And now she's a fellow at the Institute of Politics having taken some leave from journalism and is sharing the lessons of her experience with people here. And I'm really, really pleased to have her here today. Jessica Yellin -- JESSICA YELLIN, FORMER CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hi. AXELROD: -- journalist, ex-journalist extraordinaire, fellow at the Institute of Politics, and a friend of mine, but I think we had to start here. We got to start with how we got to know each other because it really was kind of an unusual introduction. YELLIN: I love that you don't let this go. OK, let's go. AXELROD: I love the story. We were -- it was December, end of December 2007, we were in the midst of the presidential race. I was obviously deeply involved with the Obama campaign. And in the midst of this Benazir Bhutto, the once and potentially future leader of Pakistan was assassinated. And the question came, I was in the scrum of reporters, I think you were one of them. YELLIN: Yes. AXELROD: Twenty-five reporters or something there. At an event about whether this didn't underscore - - and I think this was the line the Clinton campaign was pushing. That Hillary's experience was important in order to grapple with world events like these. And me doing my job I responded and said, "I think it's judgment that's important." And have people exercise better judgment, we would have not been distracted by the war in Iraq. We would've focused here. And maybe there wouldn't be the flourishing terrorist networks that apparently resulted in Benazir Bhutto's death. You -- YELLIN: Yes. AXELROD: -- reported that I was -- no, you should say what you reported because I don't want to mischaracterize what you reported. YELLIN: So, I deliberately did not pull the Nexus research on this. So I'm going to characterize my experience of this. AXELROD: This is good, we can both live with our memories. YELLIN: Because I feel like this is a Rashomon and you had yours and we can make a play of it Ep. 7 Jessica Yellin 1

2 someday, you could tell the story of that campaign. As I recall the experience was you -- that there was a -- the phraseology was essentially that Hillary Clinton's -- the policies Hillary Clinton had endorsed created an environment in which these facts -- this was allowed to arise. What ended up happening was what I think you said may have not been the full intention. Perhaps it wasn't as artfully phrased, as if we can both go back and do it again, you might have done it. And it became a (inaudible) about that day, that died for almost everybody except for you and Bill Clinton. And I would say that there a lot of people like pissed off that year. I don't know that Bill Clinton has forgiven me for asking him whether he injected racial politics into this campaign which is what I asked him in South Carolina. AXELROD: Oh, yes. He didn't like that at all. YELLIN: He didn't like that. It became big news. You remember shame on you, shame on you. AXELROD: I realize you are the perpetrator. YELLIN: That was me. Oh, they didn't want to let me do an interview with him that day. And so I snuck into the rope line and I asked him a question that to this day I sort of cannot believe I asked. I said, "You know, your campaign manager -- Mr. President your South Carolina Director Dick Harpootlian said that he hasn't seen a Democrat inject racial politics into a primary this way since Lee Atwater was alive." And Clinton did a double take, he said, "Excuse me, Lee Atwater?" Right. I mean, you know, for a southerner who grew up and views himself as a kind of a progressive on the race issue and lived through all of that. Lee Atwater is sort of a dark, dark figure, because he was viewed as playing race card, the race card. He's now deceased. But as a Republican operative was very instrumental in moving the south into the Republican column and using race -- [00:05:04] YELLIN: To divide the electorate, right? AXELROD: Right. Which he himself I guess acknowledged toward the end of his life. So, Bill Clinton didn't react well to that? YELLIN: No. Bill Clinton got, you know, he didn't really took on bridge and became very defensive. But, you know, for me it was really the first time a reporter had said race in that sort of way. Are you being racially divisive? And I even got, got a ton of calls from former Clinton supporters. From former Clinton operatives before that saying we're really upset about this, that he's doing this in this way. And so, I felt justified asking the question, I felt that it was legitimate because it's what a lot of people are saying privately. But I took a risk saying it out loud. And when it exploded I didn't know which way that was going to cut. AXELROD: Did you -- you were an intern -- YELLIN: Yes. AXELROD: -- in the Clinton White House, were you not? YELLIN: Yes. AXELROD: So, what -- when was it? That was -- were you in college at that time? YELLIN: Right after I graduated college, it was 1993, and I had these two offers. I could either go to New Ep. 7 Jessica Yellin 2

3 York and learn to write on a magazine, and then I got an internship at the White House. And my dad who'd always been in to politics and thought this is a gem of an opportunity, you got to go to the White House. So I did what my parents wanted. And my first assignment was the health care war room. That's when they were -- you remember first trying health care. YELLIN: And I remember my job was to write briefings on state and local issues in health care. So, if he's going to a small town in Illinois, what are the local issues there for health care? And I remember I got this briefing -- this is note about what I had to detail. And I went up to one of my bosses and I said, "What is HMO" because I had no clue. So, you know, I was really way behind the years at that time. AXELROD: Did you, did you have aspirations at that time to become a journalist or -- YELLIN: Never. Never. I -- my dad was JFK's personal page at the Democratic Convention. And he was just a child of Camelot, like his eyes lit up anytime you talked about that kind of -- the idea of doing well while doing good. And he -- AXELROD: You grew up in Los Angeles? YELLIN: I did. Los Angeles and they were very -- my parents are really involved in the civic community of L.A. and California and this real commitment to contributing to your community. And my dad was a frustrated politician, he wanted to be mayor of L.A. So, the idea was I was supposed to go into politics. But then, I went to work in the White House. And I was so sort of taken aback by how politics work. You know, I was fresh out of college so I didn't know what to expect. I decided -- AXELROD: In what way -- and I'm going to gloss over the whole intern thing. In what way were you taken aback? YELLIN: Two things. I was really surprised that the people who were political, who did strategy were really influential, and they had the closest access to the president. But the people who were deep thinkers, and did policy, and worked on ideas, they have the fourth floor offices across the street in the big old executive office building. And I thought ideas seem to not be as important here as political maneuvering. And the other thing that really upset me at that moment was -- I worked for a while on the announcement for the welfare reform announcement when Bill Clinton were going make welfare -- change welfare as we know it, whatever. And he used the word "illegitimate" and "wedlock" in his announcement -- in his speech. And I thought, "Why is this man describing the children of single mothers as illegitimate?" This is not the person I want to be working for. This is not why I'm spending my day like I got very upset. AXELROD: Did you say anything to anybody? YELLIN: I really felt that it was an environment that was like an uncool. It almost felt as though it's uncool to be passionate about policy and ideas. That it was childlike or not seen as -- AXELROD: Do you think Bill -- I mean, I think of Bill Clinton as being passionate about policy and ideas. YELLIN: Hundred percent. I happen to think if I had got an access to the president himself and had this conversation, it would have been incredibly productive. And I now know that his welfare reform policy is actually proven to be pretty very effective. And the very people I was worried that it would hurt which are single mothers and children actually benefited. And they got a lot of what they need. Ep. 7 Jessica Yellin 3

4 But, you know, I was 22, I was idealistic and I cared about language. Language matters, you know, that whole thing. And this just sent me off the rails. AXELROD: I want to get to how you got to journalism. I just want close the loop on the Benazir Bhutto's story -- YELLIN: Oh my God so this is -- AXELROD: -- because what I wanted to ask you about was -- to me it was just sort of a parable of campaign reporting and campaign. Things flying at warp speed and they seem important for about 10 seconds. YELLIN: Yes. AXELROD: And -- YELLIN: Come up 10 years later. AXELROD: Exactly. YELLIN: Almost. [00:10:03] AXELROD: When agreed to sources and -- but anyway. But, what was your experience as a reporter covering politics? Did you find it -- did you find that element a bit difficult or? YELLIN: I found it -- all of political coverage sometimes exhilarating and sometimes incredibly frustrating. I got into it because -- AXELROD: Sounds like politics itself. YELLIN: Yes. That too. I had this sort of crystallizing experience when I worked in the Clinton White House. I -- there was a T.V. in the corner of the room I worked in and it was one T.V. at that time. It's only CNN, you know, it was 24 hours that hung on fish wire. And I remember there were two things that could stop everybody in the West Wing just make silence. One was the president walking into your workspace. And the other was CNN reporting story on the White House. And everybody just stopped still. And I was always -- I found myself to be frustrated often when they would be covering for example, David Watkins took a helicopter to go golfing. And this is a big scandal because one of the president's aides is using taxpayer helicopters to golf. But there are all these important issues we were working on inside the White House that weren't being covered. And I thought, if I were one of those reporters, I would cover the real stuff. I would cover the stuff that matters. And I want to do that because everybody in the White House listens to those reporters and it matters. So, I decided I wanted to be one of them. AXELROD: And did you end up doing what you set out to do? YELLIN: So, I ended up -- I mean, it took me a long time to get to the White House. I went through local news. And I had a lot of those experiences first. AXELROD: That was the moment though in the White House when you -- that was what triggered your Ep. 7 Jessica Yellin 4

5 notion that maybe, maybe I should go and do this the right way. Is that? YELLIN: Yes. Yes. Because, I also -- when they reported what they reported, it actually impacted policy. It impacted, you know, all we have -- everybody in the White House would then shift a little. We have to pay attention to what's happening in the news. And I thought it such a powerful microphone. It such a powerful agent to sort of where the focus of spotlight on issues that matter. I want to focus the spotlight where I think it really matters. And for me that was people who are sort of not -- who don't actually have access to power. And in particular I cared about single women and, you know, children who were growing up in poverty that kind of thing, which it turns out is not great T.V. fodder since discovered. YELLIN: And, you know, I ended up -- I have my moments in my career when I've got to do those stories that I thought mattered. But, yes, you end up doing in the maw of, you know, the rhetorical fights everyday. AXELROD: So, just tell me what your rise up to this point was where you could draw these conclusions. (Off-Mic) I mean, how was the local T.V. experience? I've spent 2 1/2 years on nights at the Tribune covering fires and murderers. YELLIN: Did you work the over night, the lobster shift? I did, yes. I did. YELLIN: You'd go in? AXELROD: I'd go in at six and I'd work until two. YELLIN: Yes. AXELROD: And, you know, it was all catastrophes and -- YELLIN: Good stuff happens then as in bad stuff. AXELROD: I had great -- it was the greatest education that I could ever have. I learned so much about the city, I learned so much about how things worked and didn't work. I also learn that -- I watch firefighters, you know, in 20 below with icicles drip -- hanging from their heads racing into burning buildings to save people. I watch police officers both doing good and bad things but, you know, heroic things at times. You know, I saw a lot of things that I wouldn't otherwise have seen. And was that your experience as a young reporter? YELLIN: A hundred percent. I mean, I grew up in West Los Angeles, you know, and I -- from a fairly, you know, very comfortable privileged background. And I ended up in Orlando Florida as a one-man reporter which means I carried my own camera. I would shoot all my own interviews. And I would even shoot the stand up, the part where the reporter is on camera. And that was always -- I mean it was a comedy routine. Just to make -- you would have to set the camera down, lock it in place, hit record, then run in front of the camera, do your little blah-blah-blah. Ep. 7 Jessica Yellin 5

6 AXELROD: It sounds like a Marx Brothers' movie. YELLIN: It was a disaster always. YELLIN: And people are confused when you're trying to conduct an interview as both, the reporter and the camera person. And I'm not a particularly tall -- I mean, it was just very awkward, you know, staring up people. AXELROD: I was going to raise that. YELLIN: Not a tall person. [00:15:00] YELLIN: Camera almost bigger than I am. But, like you, I had that experience or I -- I was always surprised people often invited me in for interviews after for example, a child died. And to me that was -- I mean, it's such an intimate moment to come into someone's life. And in many of these local markets I found that people instead of perceiving the media as an intrusion and, you know, we're hornets that should get out of their way. It was a way of honoring -- YELLIN: -- and commemorating a person. And I think also at some times therapeutic to share stories about the people that they've lost. I always found it very hard though to intrude on these very horrific personal moments. YELLIN: A hundred percent because you feel conflicted. Because, you know -- I could sense they want me there and they want to tell a story, but it also feels voyeuristic on my part. YELLIN: And I almost want to tell them, don't let us do this. YELLIN: But, you know, it's often -- and maybe it was that, it was therapy for them. Yes. Or maybe I just tell them myself that -- YELLIN: Yes. Right, we justify it. AXELROD: -- to excuse the fact that we're intruding on their lives. But -- so how long did you do that? And when did you start making the transition to politics to government? YELLIN: So, when I got into local news, I would always say, I want to cover politics. I mean, this is whenever I talk to young people about advice. AXELROD: We'd live parallel life. Ep. 7 Jessica Yellin 6

7 YELLIN: It is, almost. AXELROD: Mine in a different era. YELLIN: I would -- yes. I would love to have the impact you've had. So, maybe someday. I found that -- AXELROD: You're in the Axe Files, come on. That's impact. YELLIN: OK, I take it back. You're right. YELLIN: Big time. I would always say -- my advice to the younger people is always, say what you want, be very clear and then, do what they asked you to do with absolute diligence and commitment. And so, I, you know, was covering in Orlando sinkholes and, you know, triple murders and Terri Schiavo and, you name it. Whatever was going on that's horrific and gory, I was there. But then, I would say I'd like to cover politics. So, any chance I got I would do that. And when I went to -- from Orlando I went to Tampa which is a big leap to a bigger market. And, you know, I had a cameraman and someone editing tape for me. AXELROD: So, you don't have to run around like the Marx Brothers doing then. YELLIN: Right. It was big time. YELLIN: I started to become their political reporter. And there was a Senate race that year in Florida and I ended up in Democratic. They said, why don't you go to Tallahassee to cover Ben Nelson's campaign, he's running for Democrat -- for Senate this year. Great. So, I was in Democratic headquarters in Tallahassee, Florida in the year And that night I was there when they declared Gore the president, and then they declared Bush the president. And then, we didn't know and I went to bed, and I got a page at like 4:00 a.m. saying Yellin get to the secretary state's office. And I ended up staying in Tallahassee, Florida for 35 days as the recount broke. And I covered it all. And that for me -- AXELROD: Fell about an education. YELLIN: It was such -- and therefore was a career highlight. I mean, it was -- first of all it was like time lapse photography. I'm standing there and all of a sudden there's Linda Douglas and there's Cokie Roberts, and there are all these people that had been my heroes my whole life and they're here covering the same story I am. And I also learned that I had a real affinity at that time for translating complex ideas clearly on air. So, I would get the lawsuit into the court decisions. And I was good at reading them and processing them. And then conveying to the viewers, basically the essence of what had happened. And I really enjoyed. I enjoyed that. AXELROD: Before we leave your Florida experience -- Ep. 7 Jessica Yellin 7

8 YELLIN: Yes. AXELROD: -- Jeb Bush was governor at the time you are covering Florida. You mentioned Schiavo. That was a case that was big in his tenure and so on. What were your observations of him back then? And how did they square with what you see today? YELLIN: That's interesting. You know, my recollection was he was very present in Florida. You know, he made himself visibly present. But he really chafed at taking questions. There was a level of discomfort with being not even challenge but engaged by reporters in a sense that, listen, I'm going to handle this and then it will be explained to you. And I kind of have seen that in these debates where he's -- it's almost as though he just doesn't want to engage this kind of a process. And I think he's a bright person who's devoted to policy and he cares about certain issues. But I think that the way we, you know, our media is constructed where you have to open yourself up and take the questions, and take your shots, and push back. It just -- it doesn't come naturally to him. Well, I mean a little bit of the circus that we talked about at the beginning is very much part of that process. And I have to tell you I worked for guy named Barack Obama who wasn't particularly comfortable with that element of it either. I think he was better at it than Jeb. YELLIN: But when you say he didn't like maybe he doesn't like it but he's good at it. [00:20:01] I would say that. And he knew he had to. I think he is an easier, you know, he has an easier way. But he shared I think that same sense of the absurd in thinking about the process. And I suspect without knowing although Jeb Bush was at the IOP and talked a little bit about this before he was thinking running for president, before at least he say he was thinking running for president. You know, he doesn't, he doesn't necessarily tolerate the absurdity of the process -- YELLIN: Right. AXELROD: -- and you kind of have to embrace it to survive it. So where do you think this all goes with him? How is he going -- do you think he's improving at this? Will he -- YELLIN: I think he seems very displeased with his situation. He doesn't -- he's not a person who communicates joy with the process and, you know -- AXELROD: Unlike Donald Trump? YELLIN: I mean, you know, yes, he loves the show. And that's part of what Trump understands is it's it is reality T.V. I mean, I call what were doing sometimes reality news and, you know, we cast in the news often the extremes because they are good characters but the person who takes the centrist position is sort of dull so we don't give them as much airtime. Trump gets that, so it's always, you know, he doesn't only like say things -- AXELROD: Yes, he doesn't paint in pallet colors? YELLIN: No and he also is always giving you a cliffhanger, stay tuned because next, you now, at this debate out -- and even you saw it with his Megan Kelly fight right after a big debate he picks a fight so he stays in the news. It's a reality T.V. -- AXELROD: Well I think also to offset any negatives from the debate. He also -- he introduce his tax plan right after the second debate when he kind of flagged at the end of that debate. And his got an incredible Ep. 7 Jessica Yellin 8

9 sense of theater. You know, I always talk about the fact that he says his childhood hero was Flo Ziegfeld of the Ziegfeld Follies and he really -- he talks about himself as an entertainer. And he fully embraces that element of this process. I don't get the sense that Jeb Bush does. YELLIN: No, I agree. And I also think the thing that Jeb Bush could do to diffuse it, he needs to use more humor. If he could sort of be a little more wry and light about it through humor it would really benefit him. AXELROD: And is he capable of that? YELLIN: You know what, if he could just deliver well written lines that someone else would give him it might be enough but it's just not where he's headed right now. AXELROD: No and he also is a guy who -- in order to deliver well written lines you have to understand that you're delivering well written lines and accept that that's part of the deal. It's again, embracing the process with all of its demands. YELLIN: Rubio is better at that, at the show part. AXELROD: Did you know him back then? YELLIN: I -- you know he was in -- I knew of him, I didn't really interact with him but he was a star always in Florida. AXELROD: Because of the way he presented himself? YELLIN: Yes. AXELROD: So you -- so after the recount you went to -- is that when you -- where did you go from the -- YELLIN: Actually I went to MSNBC, I was on the overnight anchor at MSNBC. I worked your shift, the lobster shift. So I'd go in -- AXELROD: Quite different at MSNBC. YELLIN: Yes. I'd go in at 11 at night or I'd be on at 11 at night and I'd deliver what was it? Your headlines on the half hour and it was -- and then I was -- but the main job was to be there and available if news -- major news broke. So it was just about sitting around all night hoping something bad happened somewhere. Just sort of what new in these days. AXELROD: Yes and things and probably events cooperated the -- YELLIN: They did -- you know, my audition for MSNBC was I had to go in and they make the Teleprompter crash so that you have to vamp on your own to see if you can handle with no script and then they start reading in your ears some breaking news event and could you do this? Well, I had been at Central Florida News 13 where I did absolutely everything on my own. I was at -- you know, I've been doing that for a year so I managed to handle that and that's a lot of what the overnight was sometimes. AXELROD: And then you moved to ABC? YELLIN: From MS I did go to ABC where I also did this overnight gig. So I'd go in on Fridays overnight and then Saturday overnight. Not on air, just sitting around in case news happened so that they'd have an anchor in position. And then Monday through Friday I worked there for Good Morning America. So I Ep. 7 Jessica Yellin 9

10 work seven days a week and during the week -- AXELROD: What you do on the eight day? YELLIN: I was praying for one so I could sleep. It never materialized but they had me. You know, I cover -- basically if someone was getting ax murdered or a celebrity was in trouble it was all me. And I did that for a year but every time I had a chance to talk to the executives I'd say, my goal is to be White House correspondent. And they would say, oh that's so sweet, that's cute. Jason William just shot his bodyguard why don't you just go cover that. And I'd come back and I'd say -- they said you did a good job on that, you're very thorough, I'd say thank you my goal is to cover the White House. Go cover the Martha Stewart trap, no problem. [00:25:03] And then one day their ABC White House correspondent who is Kate Snow got promoted to become the Good Morning America weekend anchor and they had this opening. And I think they're sitting around and they said, you know, Jessica Yellin has a broken record about covering the White House, why don't we just send her there to fill the gap. So they let me go and I was told you're going for two weeks, this is not your job, do not get excited, don't get your expectations out of whack, just fill in. And then two weeks became a month then a month became two. AXELROD: Now the rest as they say it was and you -- tell me what -- I always had this sense as a former journalist that the White House was a great beat to have on your resume but a really tough beat to cover because you were so reliant on essentially feedings from the White House and it was hard to do enterprise reporting when you're chained to that room, waiting for official pronouncements and so on. But maybe I missed something. YELLIN: No, its -- the reality of White House coverage is so different from what I thought when I was that 22-year-old sitting in the Clinton White House. And so a large part of it is you just have to be there, for us now that we have and Twitter and you can get so much information on the phone, you have to be present not so much to get the downloads but so you can just be in front of that camera. I mean on 24 hour news you're very chained to the camera sometimes. And it is frustrating that you can't go out and do a story about some policy and how it's impacting real people. AXELROD: And you can't -- but you can't even really move around that building very (inaudible). YELLIN: A hundred percent. I mean I got a moment to cover Capitol Hill and that's amazing. You're just walking into rooms with the member you're covering, you crash into the speaker of the House who then takes you in a different direction and -- AXELROD: Or six people who are thinking of running for speaker of the House. YELLIN: That's the case maybe. So yes, that could get frustrating but it's on the other hand it's the White House, you have an amazing -- every so often you're given these moments of oxygen where you can ask a question that becomes meaningful. For me I loved going to the policy briefings even though most of what I learned I couldn't get on air, I just personally loves. AXELROD: Why didn't you become a print reporter? YELLIN: I should have. AXELROD: When did you come to that? YELLIN: I'd probably -- Ep. 7 Jessica Yellin 10

11 AXELROD: You're late in the game here. YELLIN: You know, people told me that -- at a time people told me that Prince died you got to go on T.V. if you want a future. As it turns out that wasn't so accurate. But now I'm writing now. So that's fun although I'm writing a novel it's different. And I hope to incorporate some more reporting, print reporting. AXELROD: So people in government and politics would say they've read a lot of fiction on news sites so. Yes. But -- so, you went from, you went from ABC to CNN? YELLIN: Uh-huh. AXELROD: And I should say as the disclaimer that I'm a contributor to CNN now. YELLIN: They are lucky to have you. AXELROD: Well, I appreciate it. Yes and I'm enjoying it there but I wasn't a correspondent so I'm not a correspondent. So, tell me about that experience because that really is all news all the time. I mean, you're -- and you're filling -- on ABC they've got programming all day, they don't have news cast all day. You're filling in all day long. YELLIN: Well, it's different kind of schedule and pacing and lifestyle. So, I remember I have this experience in covering George W. Bush and I was still at ABC at the time and he went -- we went overseas and he was into (inaudible) Georgia dance to jig and it was very funny video. You could probably -- if you pulled it up you would remember it because you saw it so much. But I remember -- at the CNN they had so much -- my colleagues at CNN had so much air time that they could cover the jig and they could cover the policy and they could cover the meetings, they could go out and do it all. And I wanted a chance to be able to cover more of what was happening. And I also remember that when I was at every network I've ever been at, CNN is always on. And it's almost the assignment editor for other news channels. And, you know, some people at networks still like sort of sniff at cable but I just saw how influential CNN was and still is. And so I thought this would be great if I could be there. So I went right before the 2007 election to -- I was the Capitol Hill correspondent but I was brand new and I was going to cover the election and they said since you're new, you don't get one of the big candidates so we're going to give you this guy who's not going to win, Barack Obama. That's how, you know, that's how I got my break. I was taken off nights for a few weeks to cover this woman, Jane Byrne, who was running for mayor of Chicago and they said she's got no chance. She ended up -- it snowed for 40 days, people are really pissed off, she ended up getting elected mayor toppling the machine. And I got a guy on the political disk went over to work for her and I got a job on the political disk. So sometimes those throw away assignments turned out pretty well. [00:30:01] YELLIN: You never know how it'll break. And I remember being in Iowa, it was my first time and I would go -- I called back to home base and say, you know, I think there's something happening here with this guy. You know, these farmers are walking in being dragged by their kids to these Obama rallies and by the end they're doing the wave. And folks would say, oh that's just Iowa, they're really into politics there. But I think this is different. It was a, it was a -- as we say in the business, a good yarn, the Obama campaign. So -- and you covered the entire campaign and then -- but ultimately what happened with you in news and what conclusions did you draw from that experience that lead you to be a novelist? Ep. 7 Jessica Yellin 11

12 YELLIN: So I always wanted to be -- as I said White House correspondent and then I wanted to be chief White House correspondent. And then I got that chance and I did that for two years but I covered the White House on and off for almost 10. And I just felt that I had, you know sort of I could have stayed there for really long time and kept covering these issues or I could try to exercise different parts of my skill set. And I wanted to explore my ability to write and creativity and think about new things we could be doing in news because I really do think this is a moment when there's a shift. And I wanted to just get some rest and, you know, regroup so that I could try to figure out what's coming next. AXELROD: So one of the things that you did when you were in journalism -- broadcast journalism was a piece on political women, women in politics and it was an award-winning bit of work. What did you learn about -- and this particularly germane now we have Hillary Clinton running for president again. What did you learn about women in politics? How they are received? How they have to -- what kind of adaptations they have to make that aren't asked of men? I mean, what exactly did you learn that is germane to what we're doing today? YELLIN: I think that it is still an uphill battle for women in public life, in ways that are sort of baffling in this day and age. The thing that really strikes me about the way Hillary Clinton is covered is sort of how much there's talk about her voice, there's a lot of hurt, she's so -- and people will say in sort of pundit, she's hard to listen to. That she's sort of shrill, there is this is she too tough, does she sound off putting? And some of that is, you know, what you'd say of any candidate because they do have to be likable but there's this way in which women who are assertive and confident are perceived as unappealing or shall I say unlikable. AXELROD: No. I mean, we -- go ahead. YELLIN: No and it makes it very challenging because women -- you know, there's this -- any woman who's been in the professional workplace knows that it's much easier to communicate if you sort of tamper whatever you say with, you know -- I'll defer to you on this but it's my opinion that acts but whatever you think is best. Or I just think acts but you know that's just my point of view. And that's not A, how men communicate and B, not what you want from your commander-in-chief. No, it's very challenging when you're running for president and Hillary Clinton has experienced that, Carly Fiorina has experienced that to some degree. YELLIN: And I think it goes to a lot of the different way -- I bring it up because it goes to the different way we perceive women fundamentally, that we have a very hard time as a culture with women who are comfortable with power. And that it's just threatening and you need your commander-in-chief to be comfortable with power but then that becomes -- that makes them less appealing. AXELROD: Do you think that will change if there is a woman president, if Hillary becomes president or someone else becomes president? Will people become more comfortable with that notion? YELLIN: I think so. And I also think, you know, when -- an example is there is just a piece in political talking about the fact that this press corps, the Hillary Clinton press corps is more female than any press corps before. And it was sort of treated as how surprising, what a funny coincidence. It's not a funny coincidence it's because news organizations say wow, it's -- we look bad if we have a man or only man on a female candidate so let's find some women and that's created more opportunities for women in politics. AXELROD: Do you think at the risk of asking what may seem inappropriate question but do you think that being a woman gives an insight that is valuable in terms of covering a woman candidate? Ep. 7 Jessica Yellin 12

13 YELLIN: I think -- sure, I mean, to say -- yes, sure but it's not, it's not necessary, it's not essential. Just like if you're covering a candidate who's from your hometown, you have more insight into their milieu in which they grew up. So, yes, we have certain kind of insider shared experiences and it is very helpful. [00:35:01] But I don't think it's -- it's not a one to one. I think that -- what I'm saying is though Hillary has created this opportunity for other women it's almost a shame factor, you know? We just -- it's kind of embarrassing if our whole press corps is male. And if she's able to be strong and confident the way she was in this last debate and she is, it gives other women permission to do the same. I keep saying that what Hillary Clinton needs to do is position herself as the smartest girl in class. You don't know what it's like the smartest girl in class. Sometimes you find they're very annoying and you don't want to go to the party with her. But if she's helping you ease your tests you really want her. And this country is facing huge tests so we want this woman on our side. If she can be that for women, professional women, comfortable being the smartest girl in the room, smartest person in the room and OK with the fact that people don't like her for it, that gives women permission to do the same. AXELROD: When Obama was running we were always conscious of the fact -- I know he was that -- he was the first African-American candidate and that people -- others would look at him and project and that -- and I think there was a sense that if he fail that that failure would be felt. So when she stumbles or when she has, you know, issues related to things that she said that don't add up or whatever it is that the trust factor so on, how do -- how do women process that? Do they say -- YELLIN: Well, it is interesting. I mean, I'll tell you my mother used to get mad at me when I would report something negative about Hillary Clinton. I mean, I would -- I was covering President Obama at that time or then candidate Obama and I get s that said things like if it weren't for Hillary Clinton and me you'd be a secretary today. Not that there's anything wrong with being a secretary but I wanted to be a reporter. So, there are people especially of my mother's generation who feel that Hillary's success is their success. And so when she stumbles they all catch their breath. But I feel like next generation women or millennial women don't feel that way. And they're judging her the way we judge all candidates and would love her to succeed but you almost wish that the Clinton team would take that pressure off themselves, just run a campaign. And, you know, look at Carly Fiorina, she's doing it pretty effectively. AXELROD: You know, you sort of hint to that this earlier when you talked about the things that you can get on the air and the things that you can't get on the air. And, you know, we see stories that just take off and take over, you know, the Ebola story as one of those stories where it's just not only on cable but on broadcast. It just dominated for a number of weeks. YELLIN: And then it's gone. AXELROD: Right, because the great scare that people felt was not a borne out by the facts and yet it -- how much of does that mentality rule? YELLIN: Well, I think -- I say there a couple things that have impacted the news right now. There's social media and technology which is it just speed everything up and that's not just -- AXELROD: For the better or the worse? YELLIN: You know, it's -- I hate to be -- it's so easy to say it's terrible right? I think there are real Ep. 7 Jessica Yellin 13

14 advantages to it. It's brought in many more voices, it makes it possible to disseminate information without being part of a massive media structure and that's really important. And I think that's actually going to help us change so that we can have more complex nuanced news in our future. But I do think that there -- the way its impacted traditional media has been not great. You know, we're in such a race with everyone else and we have to put everything on Twitter as quickly as possible to be part of the conversation. You just rush things out and accuracy kind of becomes -- can become less important you can think well I can update it later if there's something wrong. So that's a challenge, another challenge is competition there -- AXELROD: It is a challenge because these things then are out there and they can feed on themselves a negative sort of false narratives can take root because in the rush to get things on the air, they get reported and it's hard to pull them back. YELLIN: I agree. I think it's incredibly challenging -- I am less concerned about the many tempest in the teapot and this -- than the overall orientation on buzz and conflict and drama and this whole idea of reality news where we predigest information, break it down so simple that you don't really have to work to understand it. And we not -- and we're so resistant to go into the gray areas. And it's my experience that viewers want that great stuff, you just have to tell it in a way that's compelling. You need person -- you need characters, you need good story telling, and that takes time and that takes a commitment of resources. [00:40:02] And, you know, people used to say to me, you know, it's hard to get into these stories or foreign stories aren't interesting but look at the success of Vice. Look at the success of documentaries on Netflix. This demonstrates that people want information. They'll sit with it for a long time, they'll take in complex ideas if it's told to them well. AXELROD: It's true that you hear -- in the industry you did hear, you know, people don't want to spend a lot of time, you know, it came up a route to this Sunday shows because Tim Russert used to -- even in that election that you covered in that I worked in 2007 and When I was writing my book I went back and read the transcripts of "Meet the Press" when Obama was on "Meet the Press", it would be an hour long interview on Sunday television. Which ended and very probing but now you hear, well that, you know, there's no room for that kind of -- YELLIN: Oh no it sound bite have to be 20 seconds, interviews have to be seven minutes or shorter, it has to fit in one block, you know. You have to take up an entire story. I used to call them news haikus that I'd have to tell the whole story of what happened at the White House today in a minute of 15. Fortunately -- AXELROD: Haikus you can use (inaudible)? YELLIN: I like it. You should (inaudible) that. But there is this market now -- I mean, CNN now has basically gone in the evenings to documentaries on several evenings a week and they've done very well with it. So, is there a move back to something more long form, more probing? YELLIN: I think that there is an appetite for long form and I think there's also an appetite for more nuanced news. I think that -- you know, the fact that Netflix is now interested in getting into the news business and that some of these other new platforms are exploring it, suggest that maybe we're going to find a new way of bringing out these stories that we haven't been getting from our traditional outlets. I mean, it's -- we're not quite there yet because our iphones can't download I think enough material fast enough but video is the fastest growing area in that market. And I'm sort of optimistic that these Ep. 7 Jessica Yellin 14

15 companies are investing in this direction. Hopefully we'll get some new voices out there. AXELROD: In a -- just in a couple minutes we have here, let me ask you about your novel and what you want to -- if anything -- I mean, as good a place as any to give people a little taste, a little preview, something to look forward to. YELLIN: Great. Sure. I haven't talked about it yet, so, let's see how I do with the pitch. It's about a young reporter who's always wanted to cover the White House and she finally gets a shot at it just as the -- AXELROD: Where did you get this stuff? YELLIN: I know, it's just pure, yes. She finally gets a shot at it as the first lady disappears, vanishes and the press becomes totally consumed figuring out where the first lady is. Meanwhile, inside the White House another story is developing. AXELROD: That's great and when can we expect to see -- YELLIN: Have you been talking to my agent? AXELROD: (Inaudible) of course that I was asked to ask you. YELLIN: It turns out plot is very hard to do. You can't just sit down and it flow and it just develops itself. So I learned from all the screenwriters you have to have these cards and storyboards, you should see my office at home, it's like a maze. So hopefully in the next few -- hopefully by the end of the year it will be written. AXELROD: Good. So for the holidays YELLIN: Good. AXELROD: -- look at bookstores for Jessica's novel. YELLIN: Thank you for the plug David. AXELROD: First of all, I appreciate you being a fellow at the IOP, you're imparting a lot of really important stuff for our young people here but always great to sit with you. YELLIN: I love being here and thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you for listening to "The Axe Files". For more podcasts like this, subscribe to "The Axe Files" on itunes. And for more programming from the University of Chicago Institute of Politics, visit politics.uchicago.edu. Ep. 7 Jessica Yellin 15