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1 Page 1 1 STATE OF FLORIDA 2 DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS 3 4 DUMP THE PUMPS, INC., et al., ) )Case Nos Petitioners, ) ) v. ) ) STATE OF FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF ) ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION and ) 8 FLORIDA KEYS AQUEDUCT ) AUTHORITY, ) 9 ) Respondents. ) 10 ) VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF 14 GUNNAR HOVSTADIUS, Ph.D DATE: September 17, TIME: 10:26 a.m. 19 HELD AT: Norwalk Inn 33 East Avenue 20 Norwalk, Connecticut 21 By: Sarah J. Miner, LSR #

2 Page 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: 2 For the Petitioners: 3 Robert N. Hartsell, Esq. 4 Federal Tower Building 1600 S. Federal Highway, Ste Pompano Beach, Florida robert@hartsell-law.com 6 7 For the Defendant Florida Keys Aqueduct Authority: 8 Frederick J. Springer, Esq. Bryant Miller Olive P.A N. Monroe St., Ste. 900 Tallahassee, Florida springer@bmolaw.com 11 For the Defendant State of Florida 12 Department of Environmental Protection: 13 Sidney Bigham Senior Assistant General Counsel 14 Department of Environmental Protection Mail Station Commonwealth Boulevard Tallahassee, Florida sidney.bigham@dep.state.fl.us and 17 Julia Gilcher Assistant General Counsel 18 Department of Environmental Protection Mail Station Commonwealth Boulevard Tallahassee, Florida julia.gilcher@dep.state.fl.us 21 Also Present: 22 Al McLaurin 23 Representative of the Florida Department of Environmental Protection Agency

3 Page 3 1 I N D E X 2 WITNESS: Page 3 GUNNAR HOVSTADIUS, Ph.D. Direct Examination by Mr. Springer 5 4 Cross-Examination by Mr. Bigham 75 Cross-Examination by Mr. Hartsell Redirect Examination by Mr. Springer E X H I B I T S 7 Exhibits Description Marked 8 (No exhibits marked

4 Page 4 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The date is September 2 17th, We are going on the record at 10:26. The 3 witness is Gunnar Hovastadius. The case is Dump The 4 Pumps vs. State of Florida. 5 My name is Peter Cofransesco and the court 6 reporter is Sarah Miner on behalf of Veritext. 7 Counsel will now state their appearances for the 8 record after which the court reporter will swear in 9 the witness. 10 MR. SPRINGER: Thank you, Peter. This is 11 Fred Springer with Bryant Miller Oliver on behalf of 12 the respondent Florida Keys Aqueduct Authority. 13 MR. BIGHAM: This is Sid Bigham and Julia 14 Gilcher attorneys for the Florida Department of 15 Environmental Protection. And we have an Agency 16 representative on the line Al McLaren. 17 MR. HARTSELL: This is Robert Hartsell I 18 represent the petitioners in this case, the 19 consolidated cases. I would like to invoke the rule 20 if there is any other persons on the phone, I don't 21 think there is, but if there is I would like to invoke 22 the rule. 23 MR. SPRINGER: To confirm it is just you Al 24 listening in, correct? 25 MCLAREN: Correct

5 Page 5 1 MR. SPRINGER: Thank you. 2 GUNNAR HOVSTADIUS, Ph.D., 3 having first been duly sworn by Sarah J. Miner, LSR, a 4 Notary Public in and for the State of Connecticut, was 5 examined and testified as follows: 6 DIRECT EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. SPRINGER: 8 Q. Thank you. Good morning, sir. Will you 9 please state your name again so we get the 10 pronunciation right. 11 A. Gunnar Hovstadius. 12 Q. Dr. Hovstadius, my name is Fred Springer. I 13 am with the law firm of Bryant Miller Olive. And we 14 represent the Florida Keys Aqueduct Authority in this 15 matter. And we have set your deposition this morning. 16 I will ask some questions. Then Mr. Bigham from the 17 Department of Environmental Protection will ask some 18 questions. And then Mr. Hartsell, who represents the 19 petitioners, will ask some questions. 20 Because of the logistics it is particularly 21 important, and I will try to but I can't promise I 22 will do it all the time, to speak slowly and clearly 23 and not speak over you, but we will just have to work 24 with what we have. And it is more convenient then us 25 all flying up to Connecticut. So we appreciate you 02409

6 Page 6 1 being here and accommodating this video hookup. 2 A. Don't worry. I can hear you very well. It 3 is a little bit more of a problem with 4 Robert Hartsell. 5 Q. We have received your resume from the 6 petitioner's counsel. So did you recently provide 7 them with a two-page resume? 8 A. Yes, I did. 9 Q. Okay. And is your address 14 Marine Avenue 10 in Westport, Connecticut? 11 A. That is correct. 12 Q. When were you engaged by Mr. Hartsell or his 13 firm to be an expert in this matter? 14 A. Well, I think they got my name from one of 15 the persons living down here in Westport. I live in 16 an area called Saugatuck Shores, which is similar to 17 the keys. 18 THE COURT REPORTER: What is the name of it? 19 THE WITNESS: S-A-U-G-A-T-U-C-K Shores. 20 Similar to the are that you are talking about. That 21 is low lying. And it is along the coast. I live out 22 on a peninsula that sticks out into Long Island Sound 23 that frequently gets flooded. And we got E-1 pumps 24 installed there two years ago, a little bit more than 25 two years ago, two and a half maybe. And there have 02410

7 Page 7 1 been a large number of disasters, smaller and up to 2 very large, serious ones. 3 And one of the persons living down there 4 also lives down in the area that you are talking about 5 putting in one of these E-1s in now. And I think that 6 she told the people down there about me. And I got an 7 back before the summer asking if I would be 8 prepared to testify about the problems we have had 9 with E-1s up here. And I said, "Of course. I don't 10 want anyone else to have to experience the problems 11 that we have had here." 12 Q. Who is that woman who lives I guess she has a 13 house up in your neighborhood in Connecticut and also 14 in the Keys, what is her name? 15 A. Jody Star. 16 Q. S-T-A-R? 17 A. Yes, I think so. But she just gave them my 18 name and said I knew a lot about these pumps. 19 Q. So for whom do you actually work in this 20 matter? Is it Dump The Pumps, the organization, or 21 Mr. Hartsell's law firm, or do you know? 22 A. I don't work for anyone but myself. I have 23 had a lot of contacts in this area about the problems 24 associated with E-1s, and that is about it. I don't 25 want anyone else to get into the same kind of troubles 02411

8 Page 8 1 that we have gotten into. So I am not working for 2 anyone or being paid by anyone at all. I am just 3 doing this because I think it is necessary. 4 Q. Okay. So you have no expectation of being 5 paid at any time by anyone for your testimony in this 6 matter? 7 A. That is correct. 8 Q. And what kind of information have you 9 received about the project in the Keys? 10 A. Well, Robert Hartsell has sent me a number of 11 papers. He also sent me a link from FTP directory 12 public outgoing DEP expert witness exhibits 13 disclosure, and so on at 14 ftp.department.state.florida.us. 15 I read a number, not all of them, but all of 16 the documents that I thought had any bearing on pumps. 17 And then I also got a number of s or pdf files 18 regarding your project sent to me by Robert. He asked 19 me to bring a list of all that stuff but I just got 20 back from a three-month trip. And the only cartridge 21 that worked on my computer was the one with black. No 22 color cartridges worked. So unfortunately a number of 23 the texts on those, on the documents didn't get 24 printed when I tried to print it this morning. But 25 all of the documents came, most of the documents came 02412

9 Page 9 1 from this Department State of Florida web site. And 2 then a number of other ones that he also passed on to 3 me. 4 Q. When did you begin conversing with 5 Mr. Hartsell about this matter? 6 A. That was during -- well the first contact 7 when they asked me if I would be able to help them out 8 was probably in May or something like that. Then I 9 didn't hear anything for a long period of time. The 10 next thing I think I got an and called him from 11 Europe maybe a month ago or something like that. And 12 I told him I would be back on the 15th in U.S. And I 13 don't know if that is why they scheduled this today or 14 not. But I was not available until today -- actually 15 yesterday because I got in late on Monday to U.S. 16 Q. So you have been abroad for three months, so 17 did you depart mid-june is that when you left the U.S. 18 to go abroad? 19 A. Essentially, yes. 20 Q. And I hope we didn't ruin the time abroad by 21 having you work on this case. 22 A. No, I will be happy to do it because I think 23 it is important that people understand what they are 24 getting into if they get into something like this. 25 Q. So what were you able to do while you were 02413

10 Page 10 1 abroad as far as work on this matter? 2 A. Well, I didn't work a lot on it because I 3 didn't have this information with the link to the 4 Florida Department of State until last week. So I 5 read through the documents. And that is about it. 6 Most of this I do know about without having to read 7 the documents. I should also say -- 8 Q. Before last week had you seen any Florida 9 Keys project specific documentation? 10 A. Not more than what I had heard about, that 11 they were trying to install a system similar to the 12 one that we have up here. And that one I have been 13 working on for over two years now. 14 Q. On that one up there who are you working for 15 up there? 16 A. Up here it has been formed a citizens group 17 or whatever you want to call it, similar to what they 18 have down in Florida. And the people up here have 19 been exposed to this system and I know pretty much 20 about all the problems that they are having. 21 So there was a group formed with me as an 22 expert by the citizens living down here. And we have 23 been negotiating mostly with the town. A little bit 24 with E-1, but E-1 is hiding behind the town here so 25 they don't want to really address the problems 02414

11 Page 11 1 directly. 2 Q. What is the name of the group up there 3 that you are working for? 4 A. I don't know if we have a formal name. It is 5 just a concerned citizens group. 6 Q. Has that group filed any lawsuits against the 7 town? 8 A. No. We are trying to get to a situation 9 where we can solve this without lawsuits. And to some 10 degree we have managed to do that. 11 Q. Have any individuals that you know of in your 12 town up there filed lawsuits against the town? 13 A. Yes. We have. I have a neighbor who got his 14 house filled with sewage after one of these pumps 15 broke down. So the rest of the pumps in the area 16 pumped -- filled his house with sewage. I was there 17 when it happened. I saw it personally. I 18 experienced Q. What is the name of that neighbor? 20 A. Williams. 21 Q. What is his first name? 22 A. Stacy. 23 Q. S-T-A-C-Y? 24 A. S-T-A-C-Y Williams, yes. 9 Marine Avenue in 25 Westport, Connecticut I think the address is

12 Page 12 1 Q. Who is the defendant in the suit filed by 2 Mr. Williams? 3 A. I am not quite sure. I think it is both the 4 town and E-1. 5 Q. And are you helping Mr. Williams in that 6 suit? 7 A. They have asked me if I am willing to do 8 that, but so far I have done nothing. I have said I 9 would be willing to help them out if it comes to that, 10 but I haven't done anything so far except that I have 11 been working on this citizens group down there trying 12 to get some sort of order. 13 Q. When you say they have asked you, does that 14 mean Mr. Williams' lawyers? 15 A. Both Williams, the family Williams, and their 16 lawyers have asked me. 17 Q. Who are Mr. Williams' lawyers? 18 A. I think her name is Briana Kostowicz. 19 Q. Can you spell her last name? 20 A. No. I don't know. K-O-S-T-O-W-I-C-Z. I am 21 not sure. I don't have it with me. 22 Q. Do you know what relief Mr. Williams seeks in 23 his lawsuit? 24 A. No. I guess he wants to get paid for not 25 being able to lose his house for two years. And that 02416

13 Page 13 1 the house had to be gutted inside completely up to 2 four feet I think it was from the floor in the bottom 3 level. 4 Q. And did any other members of your citizens 5 group experience something similar to what 6 Mr. Williams experienced? 7 A. There has not been any more houses filled 8 with sewage. This was a $2 million house that was 9 completely filled with sewage on the bottom level. 10 That has only happened once. There have been numerous 11 other problems. And I have a list of them here, up 12 until the end of last year, which I got from the Town 13 of Westport. 14 Q. And why does the citizens group -- what does 15 the citizens group want the town to do differently? 16 A. Well, there are a number of things. We would 17 have liked the town to take on the ownership of this 18 system, but the town doesn't want to do that because 19 they think that there might be a lot of cost involved 20 and they would rather dump it on the people living in 21 the area. 22 So one of the differences between what you 23 have down there and what we have is the town here does 24 not want to have any responsibility whatsoever for the 25 pumps. We also thought that the system was inherently 02417

14 Page 14 1 unsafe, which has been proven by the Williams' 2 disaster above all, but also by a number of other 3 breakdowns that have happened. 4 And we wanted them to take some measures to 5 prevent E-1 disasters to happen again like the 6 Williams' one. 7 We also wanted them to follow up on what is 8 happening, which they are doing. 9 We wanted reports from them on all the 10 problems because people are very, very upset in the 11 area and there are a lot of rumors going on. So we 12 wanted to know exactly what is going on and have it on 13 paper, which we have gotten. 14 We also wanted the town to force E-1 to 15 extend the warranty time because of all these 16 problems. And the town has done that. 17 So there are a number of things that has 18 happened. The town is now cooperating with this 19 group. From the beginning it was kind of a tense 20 atmosphere, but they have come around. And they kind 21 of say we never imagined we could have so many 22 problems with these pumps. Now they are helping us 23 instead of trying to block us like they did from the 24 beginning. 25 Q. So when you want them to take preventive 02418

15 Page 15 1 steps what kind of steps would you like the town to 2 take? 3 A. Well, there are a number of steps they have 4 taken. From the beginning this system was built with 5 just one check valve situated in the pump. And they 6 had decided that it wasn't necessary to have check 7 valves at the curbs. They have dug up all the systems 8 since then and put in check valves at the curbs. 9 Unfortunately these are buried five or six feet under 10 ground so they are very hard to get to to figure out 11 if they are working or not. 12 One of the ways to prevent extremely high 13 pressures during upset conditions is to limit the 14 number of pumps that can start at the same time. So 15 they have installed relays with delays in order to 16 prevent pumps from starting at the same time or as 17 many pumps to start at the same time as they had from 18 the beginning. 19 They have also gone out and looked for other 20 pumps that we can replace the E-1s with. And they 21 have come up with a list of three, four different 22 types of pumps that can presumably have higher quality 23 and their E-1 can be replaced by without any problems. 24 So the town has -- is kind of helping the 25 group coming to some sort of sensible solutions here

16 Page 16 1 We are going to have a new meeting with them soon now 2 when I am back here again. But I just got s 3 that they are talking about arranging a meeting within 4 a couple of weeks, but the time hasn't been settled on 5 yet. 6 Q. And given your background and experience did 7 you help come with up with the list of possible 8 replacements of pumps? 9 A. No, I did not. But when they did it they 10 said they were going to review it with me when they 11 had it done to see if I agreed. And that hasn't 12 happened yet so I don't know what pumps are on that 13 list. I heard there are four or five suitable 14 replacements. 15 Q. If you were making a list for possible 16 replacements who would be on your list? 17 A. Well, there are a number -- I wouldn't go so 18 far to say that. There are a number of companies that 19 make pumps that would be suitable for this, but I need 20 to look upon it in detail before I have a strong 21 opinion about what pumps would be suitable or not. 22 Generally speaking I think that the centrifugal pumps 23 would be better than positive displacement pumps in an 24 area like this. 25 Q. So in the pumps that are currently in the 02420

17 Page 17 1 system are they positive displacement pumps? 2 A. Yes, they are. And there is a big difference 3 between positive displacement pumps and centrifugal 4 pumps. 5 Q. I am not an engineer so you might have to 6 dumb it down, but could you simply state the 7 difference? 8 A. Yes. A PD pump, or positive displacement 9 pump, works basically like if you think about a bike 10 pump. And you fill it with water and then you press 11 it down you know that the water is going to come out 12 through the hose at a certain speed which depends on 13 how fast you push that handle down. That is basically 14 a PD pump. So a PD pump generates flow. And if you 15 have a motor connected to it it will force down that 16 piston at a certain speed so you are going to get a 17 fixed flow out of it. That flow can be a little bit 18 adjusted if there is leakage backwards around the 19 piston when it pushes down, but basically it is a 20 flow-generating device. And a pressure that you have 21 at the outlet of that pump doesn't depend on the pump 22 it depends on the resistance that is created by the 23 system. So as long as this motor is strong enough to 24 drive that piston down, or in this case it is not a 25 piston it is a rotating cylinder, as long as the motor 02421

18 Page 18 1 is strong enough that thing will drive down and create 2 flow. The pressure in the system depends on the 3 resistance of the system. Now, that is the PD pump. 4 The centrifugal pump has a completely 5 different way of functioning. It functioning by 6 spinning the fluid in an impeller. And the pressure 7 that that pump is generating depends on the peripheral 8 speed of the impeller where the flow exits the pump. 9 Now, if you close a valve and dead head, 10 that means that you have no flow out of the pump, if 11 you dead head the pump, the centrifugal one, you will 12 have a pressure in the pump that depends only on the 13 speed of the impeller. So it is limited. It can't be 14 higher than what you get out of the impeller. 15 On the PD pump there is basically no limit 16 to how high the pressure can get. The only thing that 17 limits the pressure eventually is leakage around the 18 internal parts of that pump. So a PD pump can 19 generate very, very high pressures. In industrial 20 applications you are not allowed to put in PD pumps 21 without safety valves because if one of those get 22 blocked or dead headed they will very likely blow the 23 piping system apart which could cause very serious 24 injury for people around it. 25 So PD pumps usually operate with safety 02422

19 Page 19 1 valves that open in the case that the flow path is 2 blocked one way or another and dangerous pressures are 3 being created. That can't happen, as I said, with 4 centrifugal pumps. It doesn't matter if you have centrifugal pumps connected to a system, the pressure 6 still cannot be higher than whatever you are creating 7 in the individual centrifugal pump. As far as PD 8 pumps goes, when you attach a large number of them to 9 a system when they try to operate at the same time, 10 all of them, you create very high flow rates into that 11 system. And the flow rate -- the pressure drop in the 12 system or the necessary pressure that is being created 13 is proportional to the square of the flow rate, which 14 means that if you put in 10 pumps instead of one pump 15 you are going to have a maximum pressure that 16 theoretically is about 100 times as high in the system 17 as you have with one pump. It is the square of So in these kind of systems when you put an 19 awful lot of pumps onto a system you can create 20 extremely high pressures. And then something breaks. 21 And that is what happened in the Williams' house. One 22 of the pumps connections with a lateral going to the 23 street broke and that opened up a safety valve. So 24 for all the other 120 pumps. And they pumped all the 25 sewage that was stored for a number of days, I don't 02423

20 Page 20 1 know if it was three or four days, into Williams' 2 house. 3 So it is very clear that this is a real 4 risk. It is not a theoretical risk. It is something 5 that I have experienced myself. And you can believe 6 me that it is not pleasant to see. 7 Q. I can imagine. Is a PD pump, are those also 8 called progressive cavity pumps? 9 A. Progressive cavity pump is one sort of PD 10 pump. There are different types of PD pumps. And 11 that is one type. 12 Q. And is a progressive cavity pump the same as 13 a progressing cavity pump? 14 A. I guess that someone might call it. I don't 15 think there is a difference. It depends on what they 16 are trying to call it. It is kind of hard to explain. 17 I think you should look at the picture to see what it 18 looks like. But basically you have a stater, rubber 19 stater in which you have a spiral formed rod. And 20 when that one is turning you get kind of cavities 21 between the rod and this rubber stater. And when the 22 rod spins those cavities move in one direction. 23 So I am trying to explain it with bicycle 24 pumps instead. If you have kids they might have those 25 little things with a tube and a piston and they fill 02424

21 Page 21 1 them with seawater and spray on each other. That is 2 basically the way they function. So it is easier to 3 understand it that way. 4 Q. Right, right. 5 A. That could be lobe types with lobes running 6 in certain enclosures or cavities as well. There are 7 a number of these types of pumps, but they all have in 8 common that they are pushing volume. They are not 9 creating pressure by themselves. If you don't have 10 any pressure on the outlet of a PD pump there is no 11 pressure on the fluid coming out. So the pressure 12 that is reached is totally dependent on the resistance 13 in the system. It hasn't got anything to do with the 14 pump. 15 Q. And your expertise judging from your resume 16 obviously includes pumps. Are you experienced with 17 waste water systems, more broadly defined, engineering 18 waste water systems, or are you focused more with pump 19 systems? 20 A. I started off working at a company called ITT 21 Flygt in 1982 where I was charge of all the 22 technology. In 1984 they asked me to move over to 23 U.S. and start up technical, improve rather a 24 technical department in U.S. that was mostly doing 25 custom solutions for customers around this country

22 Page 22 1 And that was a three-year contract to start with. 2 Next month it is 30 years ago. I guess I liked it so 3 much in U.S. I didn't want to go back. 4 I was in charge of ITT Flygt's technical 5 department director of technology there to beginning 6 of '90s. I should say that IT Flygt is probably the 7 biggest manufacturers of waste water pumps in the 8 world. 9 In the beginning of the '90s I moved to ITT 10 Fluid Technology, which is a part of ITT that owned a 11 large number of pump companies. All in all they were 12 at the time the largest pump company in the world. 13 ITT Fluid Technology was the largest pump company in 14 the world. I was director of technology so I was 15 coordinating departments within all the different 16 companies that they owned related to pumps. 17 Q. And for Sarah's benefit will you spell Flygt. 18 A. F-L-Y-G-T it is called Flygt in Swedish. 19 Q. That, in fact, originally was a Swedish 20 company, correct? 21 A. That is or was a Swedish company that was 22 acquired by ITT in Q. So in your time there you were primarily 24 focused on research and development and sort of the 25 product side, manufacturing side? 02426

23 Page 23 1 A. That is true when I was in Sweden, but when I 2 came over to U.S. it was more application engineering 3 and problem solving in different ways. I mean, Flygt 4 is basically a waste water pump company. So 5 everything they do basically goes or most percent goes to waste water applications. And as 7 director of technology I got involved in I don't know 8 how many different types of sewage systems and the 9 like, mostly when there was a problem. 10 I also from the beginning of the maybe '93 11 or something like that until 2003 I was in charge of 12 standards writing for pumps in U.S. at Hydraulic 13 Institute. I was Chairman of the Standards Committee. 14 I also got in contact with a lot of pump manufacturers 15 and got to know them. I started to work with U.S. 16 Department of Energy in around '93 when they asked me 17 if I would like to be on the Steering Committee for 18 something called The Motor Challenge Program in the 19 U.S. that started off working with the efficiency of 20 electric motors. And moved on to driven equipment 21 where I came in. Eventually the program changed names 22 Best Practices of Pumps, Fans, Compressors and the 23 like. And as such I became of one less than 10 people 24 in U.S. that are hired to and able to go out and do 25 pump system assessments for U.S. Department of Energy

24 Page 24 1 I also have the same kind of capacity for 2 United Nations Industrial Development Organization. 3 That is part of the reason I have been abroad fairly 4 frequently here because we are trying to educate the 5 people around the world about pump systems and how you 6 should deal with them in different ways. 7 I think that should convince you that I 8 know systems pretty well. Another thing is there is 9 an ISO committee that is writing pump system 10 assessment standards. And that is put together by 11 experts from different countries around the world. 12 And I am the U.S. representative at ISO for doing this 13 kind of work. 14 Q. For Sarah's benefit is ISO I-S-O? 15 A. Yes, International Standard Organization. 16 Q. You do not -- and you are certainly very well 17 credentialed, you are not a professional engineer 18 licensed by any state in the United States are you? 19 A. Nope. 20 Q. While you have a lot to do with the pumps you 21 don't put your seal as an engineer on any waste water 22 system designs? 23 A. No, I have not been involved in that. It is 24 not what you do when you are in upper management at a 25 large corporation. You have guys that are doing that 02428

25 Page 25 1 for you. 2 Q. And in upper management in a large 3 corporation do you participate in any stock plans for 4 the company when you were with Flygt? 5 A. I did. But it is about close to 20 years 6 ago. 7 Q. Are you still a stockholder in Flygt? 8 A. No. 9 Q. What about ITT? 10 A. I don't have any personal ITT stocks. There 11 are ITT stocks in the 401K that was -- when the 401Ks 12 were put together ITT gave us a number of stocks. I 13 don't know how much that is, but I think it was called 14 ESOP, Employee Stock Owner Program. And it amounted 15 to half a percent or something like that of your 16 salary every year was put into the 401K ITT stock. 17 The company has been split a number of times and I am 18 not sure exactly what is left in there of that. 19 Q. As a stockholder are you familiar with the 20 United States Securities and Exchange Commission or 21 SEC? 22 MR. HARTSELL: Hartsell. Object to form. 23 THE WITNESS: Robert, you don't come through 24 very well. 25 MR. HARTSELL: I am doing the best I can. I 02429

26 Page 26 1 have three microphones here. 2 THE WITNESS: The question was if I was 3 familiar with SEC. Not in detail. I know what it is. 4 I don't know how they operate or what they do. 5 BY MR. SPRINGER: 6 Q. You know a large publicly traded company like 7 ITT submits information to the SEC, correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And do you know who currently owns Flygt? 10 A. They have changed the name a number of times 11 now. And I think the last -- I don't remember. 12 Xylem or something like that, X-y-l-e-m. And exactly 13 how -- I mean, ITT was split up. Exactly how that 14 ownership is, looks like now, I have no idea. But the 15 old Flygt Corporation and Fluid Technology was split 16 up into parts again. And I know that I don't get -- I 17 get a pension from ITT or from part of ITT. But it is 18 not coming out of the fluids group. It is coming out 19 of the defense group of ITT, which is called Excelus. 20 So I am not getting anything from the old fluid 21 technology. I am getting a pension from the defense 22 and electronics part of the old ITT that is now called 23 Excelus. They have nothing to do with pumps 24 whatsoever. 25 Q. The 22 years you were with ITT you were 02430

27 Page 27 1 devoted to Flygt, the Flygt brand, the Flygt products, 2 correct? 3 A. No, basically I was from '82 to '93 or 4 something like that the first couple of years in 5 Stockholm. And then after that in Norwalk, 6 Connecticut, where we are now. And then I started 7 work, from the beginning I worked half time as 8 director of technology for ITT Fluid Technology. And 9 that was out of New Jersey. 10 Q. And does ITT Fluid Technology at the time did 11 they include the Flygt pumps within their business? 12 A. Yes, they did. 13 Q. So you know a lot about Flygt pumps, correct? 14 A. I know a lot about Flygt pumps, but I also 15 know quite a lot about other pumps because, as I said, 16 I was chairman of standard writing for pumps in U.S. 17 for almost 10 years. And within Hydraulic Institute, 18 which is a manufacturers organization for pump 19 companies. So when I was there I got to know the 20 technical people and a number of CEOs of the pump 21 companies around U.S. 22 Q. And in that experience and just being in 23 upper management with ITT do you understand the 24 business of pumps, right, you understand it from the 25 business side? 02431

28 Page 28 1 A. Yes, and different companies have different 2 business models so they are not the same all over the 3 place. 4 Q. I am going to read a sentence then you tell 5 me if you think this was part of Flygt's business 6 model. Here is the sentence: "In the sale of 7 products and services we benefit from our large and 8 solid base of pumps and complimentary products, which 9 require maintenance, repair and replacement parts due 10 to the nature of the products and the conditions under 11 which they operate." 12 Do you agree with that, is that statement 13 accurate as applied with Flygt's business? 14 MR. HARTSELL: I object to form. This is 15 Robert Hartsell. 16 THE WITNESS: Do you want no answer or not? 17 BY MR. SPRINGER: 18 Q. Yes, do you agree with that statement? Does 19 that accurately describe Flygt's business? 20 A. I would say that all companies selling into 21 this market to a certain degree rely on in part sales 22 in the after-market. The big difference between Flygt 23 and other companies was that Flygt had a policy 24 similar to, you know, IBM had a policy that no one 25 should ever regret buying an IBM system even if there 02432

29 Page 29 1 might be other systems available that are cheaper. 2 That was pretty much the policy of Flygt when I was 3 there. That if something went wrong we had a very, 4 very strong engineering department that would take 5 care and solve the problems regardless of whose fault 6 it was. This policy could cost Flygt quite a lot of 7 money at times if something had gone wrong. And even 8 if Flygt was totally innocent to what had happened 9 they always paid for it. 10 So Flygt had a strong reputation of taking 11 care of problems and not running away from them and 12 not hiding from them. If you bought a Flygt pump you 13 would know that if there was a problem with your 14 system, even outside the pump, Flygt would solve it 15 for you. This was sometimes very expensive, but in 16 the long run I think it was very profitable because 17 Flygt got orders even if they were more expensive than 18 the competitors. 19 Q. What kind of warranty does Flygt offer on its 20 pumps? 21 A. It depends on what pumps it is, but usually 22 it is five years. 23 Q. How about on its progressing cavity grinder 24 pumps? 25 A. I don't know because there were no such pumps 02433

30 Page 30 1 in the organization when I was there, in the Flygt 2 organization. 3 Q. Do you know whether today Flygt offers PD 4 pumps? 5 A. Yes, I do know that, but I don't know any 6 details about it. I haven't been at Flygt for it is 7 probably 15 years ago I was at Flygt or visited them. 8 Q. Have you spoken with your citizens group 9 there in Westport about swapping out the E-1 pumps and 10 replacing them with Flygt pumps? 11 A. I have said that that is one possibility, but 12 there are several other possibilities as well. And, 13 as I told you earlier, the town initiated a study of 14 what kind of pumps that could be used to replace the 15 E-1s with. I do know that Flygt has a progressive 16 cavity pump. I don't know if that is on the list. I 17 also know that they have a two-stage centrifugal pump 18 that they use in other places to replace E-1s with. 19 And I don't know if that one is on the list either. I 20 simply don't know because I have been gone and I 21 haven't followed what is going on there. 22 Q. If you ran the town and could replace the 23 pumps there what would you replace them with? 24 A. I don't know yet. I would look at the 25 different alternatives. The benefits and problems 02434

31 Page 31 1 with the different alternatives. So I haven't seen 2 what they put together, so I don't know. You don't 3 just grab a pump out of the air here and put it in in 4 a service like that. You have to know what you are 5 you are doing and look at what you are going to get if 6 you get one pump or another. 7 Q. Right. When did Mr. Williams suffer this 8 unfortunate event? 9 A. During the storm Irene that hit in August a 10 couple of years ago. 11 Q. 2011? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. So you had three years to think about this. 14 What else would you need to do in order to decide a 15 good replacement strategy? 16 A. Well, I would not use PD pumps because of the 17 problems that we have here. And I should point out 18 that I am not sure or I don't think that the E-1 pumps 19 are bad in all types of systems or all types of 20 installations. I think they are utterly unsuited for 21 the type of problems that we have down here, which are 22 similar to what you have. And it is like if you 23 are -- if you fly with a 7747 that is very safe and 24 very nice, but if someone gets the idea to land it on 25 a landing strip that is one-third of the length it 02435

32 Page 32 1 should have then I don't think you want to be in it. 2 So it is kind of similar here. You can have 3 a machine that is okay for certain applications, but 4 if you put it in an application where it doesn't 5 belong you are going to get big problems. And that is 6 what we have here. 7 Q. Help me understand that. Do you think it is 8 ever appropriate to use a PD pump in a low pressure 9 waste water system? 10 A. Yes, I think it could be okay to do it, but 11 not with the boundary conditions that we have down 12 here. 13 Q. And what are the conditions do you think make 14 it ill-advised to use a PD pump in a low pressure 15 system? 16 MR. HARTSELL: Object to form. This is 17 Robert Hartsell. 18 THE WITNESS: Your question is a little bit 19 misleading. It is not a question of low pressure 20 system. The pressure in these systems can be very, 21 very high. The problem with E-1s is what I told you 22 before, that when you start several pumps at the same 23 time you generate very high system pressures. In this 24 situation here we had, today I think they are heading 25 for about 300 pumps attached to the system. Back in 02436

33 Page there were maybe 100 to 150 pumps attached to the 2 system. 3 And the problem is basically connected with 4 power outages. When you have a power outage that is 5 fairly long. And here we are talking about days, and 6 sometimes a week. Then what you do is you collect an 7 awful lot of waste water in each individual pump 8 chamber, you know, the barrels where the pumps are 9 sitting. And that means that all these float switches 10 or whatever you use in order to tell the pump to start 11 when power comes back on they all tell the pumps to 12 start at the same time. So you could have maybe pumps start at the same time. 14 And all these pumps, as I said before, 15 generate flow. They are flow generators. So you are 16 trying to push -- if you look at the normal situation 17 they do statistical analysis of how many pumps are 18 running at the same time. And they came up with maybe 19 five, six, seven pumps mostly working at the same 20 time. But when you have these incidents you can get pumps starting at the same time. Everyone is 22 going to generate pressure. And the resistance in the 23 system consists of friction forces in the tubing. And 24 it also consists of maybe a mild or in this case here 25 three miles of water in a header or waste water in a 02437

34 Page 34 1 header that has to be accelerated before it starts to 2 move. Before that happens the generated pressure in 3 the system can be very high. 4 Now, we have been trying to get how high the 5 pressure E-1 can deliver. And they refuse to answer. 6 They have not answered us. We have heard from some of 7 the distributors that 180 PSI has been measured. So 8 you are talking maybe 200 PSI pressure in a situation 9 like this when all these pumps start at the same time. 10 When that happens something might break. And that is 11 exactly what happened in the Williams' house. It 12 broke because the pressure got too high to handle. 13 So we are not talking about -- when I am 14 opposed to these systems it is not because they don't 15 work during normal operating conditions. I do think 16 that they work under normal operating conditions. I 17 have some concerns about the quality of the product 18 under normal conditions, but the real dangers don't 19 occur during normal operating conditions. They occur 20 during upset conditions when things happen that the 21 pump system is not designed for. And most 22 specifically that is starting a whole lot of pumps at 23 the same time. That generates extremely high pressure 24 spikes in the system. And things are likely to break 25 when that happens. And that is why in industrial 02438

35 Page 35 1 applications you are not allowed to have a PD pump 2 without safety valves that open under such conditions. 3 I also saw in one of the papers that was 4 sent to me or if it was one I found on the State of 5 Florida website that one of the distributors of E-1 6 has taken on himself to install safety valves on the 7 systems that he sells for this particular reason. 8 So this is a concern that very high 9 pressures can be generated during upset conditions. 10 It doesn't say that these very high pressure is going 11 to be there every day. Far from it. But it is a 12 concern about upset conditions. 13 Now, the other part of it is what happens to 14 the pump when you have power outages? And I was just 15 talking about power outages that lasted for a long 16 time, such a long time that most of the pump chambers 17 are filled to such a degree that when the power comes 18 back on all the pumps get the starting order at the 19 same time. 20 Now, you have other conditions as well that 21 we have had serious problems with here. That is that 22 the E-1 pumps are not truly submersible. I read in 23 some of the papers here that there is an advent to the 24 motor to have the motor run at atmospheric conditions 25 it said. That means that if you submerge one of these 02439

36 Page 36 1 pumps above the top of the pump and you have that air 2 hole into the pump then water or sewage is going to 3 leak into the motor and short it out. We have had 4 several cases of pumps shorting out. 5 And I was not aware of this air hole or 6 pressure equalizing hole or whatever it was called 7 until last week when I read one of these papers. I 8 think it might have been the Florida State site I 9 found it on. 10 So we have been wondering how is it that 11 these pumps shorten out so frequently and that you 12 blow up the pumps by water intrusion in them. If this 13 is the case, which it seems to be, that they are 14 equipped with this air equalization or pressure 15 equalization hole between the motor and the 16 surroundings then if the pump gets totally submerged 17 for a long period of time it is probably going to leak 18 water into the motor. 19 Now, this leakage into the pump can come 20 from the outside or it can come from the inside. When 21 we are talking about outside we are talking about a 22 very large number of these pumps are installed in 23 areas where you during extreme flooding might have 24 three feet of water on top of the pump chamber. That 25 happened during Irene. It happened during Sandy that 02440

37 Page 37 1 you might have heard about. A huge storm that hit the 2 New York area some years ago. During that instance we 3 had up to three feet of water on the streets along the 4 coast down here. 5 And these pump chambers are usually situated 6 at the street level. So that means that the pump 7 chambers were also exposed to about three feet or two 8 to three feet or so of seawater on top of them. And 9 they were not all waterproof. So in some cases you 10 had water intrusion from the sea, the saltwater going 11 into the pump, pump pits. 12 But that was not the only case. The other 13 way of drenching these pumps if people are staying in 14 their houses and use the bathrooms then the chamber is 15 slowly going to be filled up. And normally you fill 16 it for maybe a couple of feet or something like that. 17 And then the pump starts and pushes out the fluid that 18 is in the barrel. But if you don't have any power to 19 it and you keep using your toilets then you are just 20 going to fill up, and fill up, and fill up this 21 chamber. And eventually the water is going to back up 22 into your house because there is no way out. It is a 23 closed chamber and you are just filling it up. 24 So that has happened a number of times. And 25 the pumps get submerged during longer power outages

38 Page 38 1 I saw in one of these papers that E-1 had a diagram 2 where they had calculated that a four-person family 3 that used average amount of water, about I think it 4 was a gallon and a half per person, they would fill up 5 or they would not fill up until 28 hours had passed or 6 something like that. And then they said this takes 7 care of 98 percent of the power outages in U.S. And 8 that might be true. But the problem is that down in 9 the Coastal areas when we have power outages they are 10 much, much longer than 28 hours when we have storms 11 and upset conditions. We have had power outages that 12 last for a week here. And I have heard that the same 13 is true for the Keys' area. 14 So if you have power outages that long and 15 people use their bathrooms these pumps are going to be 16 submerged in their canisters where they are sitting. 17 If they are not totally submersible then you will get 18 water into the motors. And when they start they will 19 blow up. You will have a disaster on your hand. 20 When that disaster happens in a pump pit the 21 pump breaks and you have to buy a new pump or new 22 motor for the pump. But it would not fill the house 23 with sewage if nothing else happens. But you have a 24 very expensive repair to make. 25 Q. Let me just summarize to make sure I follow 02442

39 Page 39 1 you. You have two problems to solve for in your view. 2 Number 1, is what happens with the high pressures 3 generated when all the pumps come online at once? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And, Number 2, what happens if the pumps 6 become submerged because of the air vent or they might 7 leak? And that is particularly likely to happen in 8 flood conditions; is that accurate? 9 A. Yes, it is. 10 MR. HARTSELL: Object to form. 11 Robert Hartsell. 12 THE WITNESS: It is not the only occasion 13 when that happens. If you have a large bathtub, for 14 example, and your discharge pipes from the bathtub or 15 showers are large enough they will basically submerge 16 the pump in the pit. Because the pump is not able to 17 pump more than 10 gallons per minute. And the storage 18 capacity in the barrel where the pump is situated 19 depends on the design, how big it is. But it is 20 usually not large enough to take care of a bathtub 21 that is draining. So if the bathtub is draining, has 22 been full or let's say you have a jacuzzi or something 23 like that, which you might have a few of down in 24 Florida, and you empty them, then it is likely that 25 the flow from, by emptying this is higher than the 02443

40 Page 40 1 capacity of the pump. And it will also be drenched. 2 And that has happened a number of times here as well. 3 So it is -- I am not talking about things 4 that might happen. I am talking about things that I 5 have seen happen over and over again here. It is not 6 some sort of theoretical thing that we have here that 7 something might happen. It is something that does 8 happen that we know happens. And that I have seen 9 several times. 10 Q. And you said Mr. Williams has a $2 million 11 house? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. How many square feet are in his house; do you 14 know? 15 A. I don't know for sure. I would guess at 16 least four, 5, Q. Do you know how many bathrooms he has in his 18 house? 19 A. I think most of the bathrooms in his house 20 are on the upper floor. The bathrooms where you 21 had -- there was one bathroom and toilet on the bottom 22 floor or ground floor in the house. Where it acted 23 like fountains with sewage coming back into the house. 24 So I don't know what he has on the upstairs because I 25 haven't been upstairs. But given the sizes of the 02444

41 Page 41 1 houses here, I would guess that there would be at 2 least a couple of bathrooms upstairs as well and 3 showers. 4 Q. Is Marine Avenue a pretty nice neighborhood? 5 Are all the houses in your neighborhood fairly large? 6 A. There are a couple of older houses that were 7 built in the '60s that are still there. What normally 8 happens here when it is time to sell a house some 9 builder comes in, rips the house down, and puts up a 10 new one. And there is -- I don't think there are any 11 houses down in the area that go for less than a 12 million dollars. 13 Q. How about your house, is it an old '60s house 14 or is it a more recent house? 15 A. It is built in '82. And it was built at such 16 a height that I was not flooded during the Sandy 17 storm. Whereas a number of houses around me had to be 18 ripped down after Sandy and replaced by houses that 19 cost about two and a half million bucks each. 20 Q. How many bathrooms do they usually have? 21 A. Three, four. 22 Q. So one key difference up there, I guess, that 23 you already identified is up there the homeowners have 24 responsibility for the maintenance of the pumps and 25 the systems on their property? 02445

42 Page 42 1 A. That is correct. 2 MR. HARTSELL: Object to the form. This is 3 Robert Hartsell. 4 BY MR. SPRINGER: 5 Q. Who has responsibility for maintenance of the 6 systems in your town there? 7 A. Well, right now most of these pumps are still 8 under the extended warranty. And when something goes 9 wrong we call the town. And the town either send out 10 their own people or they try to get someone from E-1 11 to come and address the problems. What is going to 12 happen in the future when this extended warranties are 13 running out is still up in the air. 14 That is one of the things we are kind of 15 fighting with the town about that we, the citizens 16 down here, want them to take care of maintenance of 17 the systems because we think it is not fair to put 18 that burden on people who know nothing about pumps and 19 don't understand the pump systems. And there have 20 been people moving into the area that weren't even 21 aware of that they had these pumps installed on their 22 properties. 23 So as it stands right now the town wants the 24 citizens to be responsible for the pump systems. And 25 that is something that we are trying to change

43 Page 43 1 Q. Then as originally installed there were no 2 check valves on the house side of the pump system, 3 correct? 4 A. There were no -- you have the system in the 5 street. And then from the main in the street you have 6 something called a lateral going from this to the 7 property boundary. At the property boundary there is 8 a shut-off valve, a manual shut-off valve that you can 9 reach if you have a special tool. Then after that 10 valve there is a connection that goes into the pump 11 chamber and up to the pump. From the beginning there 12 were no check valves on that line. But today they 13 have installed, they have dug up all these systems and 14 they put in check valves after the shut-off valve in 15 between the street and the property. 16 So today there are buried check valves that 17 are supposed to prevent a disaster like the Williams. 18 But that is another point where we have a 19 disagreement. Because these check valves tend to get 20 clogged with grease and hair and stuff like that that 21 is coming off the properties. If you shower you are 22 going to lose some hair. And that hair goes with the 23 water into the pump pit and then it is pumped. There 24 is evidence that hair often ends up in these check 25 valves and prevent them from functioning properly

44 Page 44 1 The other thing that you have a problem with 2 there is grease. And, as you know, when you do your 3 dishes there is usually a bit of grease on your plates 4 after you have eaten and in the pots that you have 5 been using. And this grease goes down into the, first 6 into the sewage in the house and then into the pump 7 pit. 8 Now, grease is lower density than water so 9 it floats. And it is very common in waste water wet 10 wells that if you don't take out the grease you will 11 form a ring of grease on the side of the wet well. So 12 municipal guys that have these kind of pump systems 13 have to go and remove this grease regularly. 14 One way of trying to deal with it is to run 15 the pumps so far down that they are sucking air. That 16 means that the inlet to the pump is at the level of 17 the surface of the waste water in the pit. And when 18 that does happen it usually sucks up grease from the 19 surface of the waste water in the pit and pumps it 20 out. 21 That is called snoring because the pumps 22 sound like a guy that snores. So they call it snoring 23 condition. They pump the liquid level down so that 24 the pump is basically pulling air and fluid into 25 itself. And that works with centrifugal pumps. I 02448