U INTERVIEWER: SANDRA HAWKINS INTERVIEWEE: VERNON COOPER

Transcription

1 U SANDRA HAWKINS INTERVIEWEE: VERNON COOPER I am Sandra Bowks Hawkins and I am interviewing Mr. Vernon Cooper. We are at his residence, 455 Styrontown Road, Oriental, North Carolina. It's about 7:30 or 7:40 pm. and the date is April 25, Mr. Cooper is being interviewed and he is the only other person who is in the interview session. Now, we will be asking questions about the historical growth of Pamlico County and your experiences in this community. Let me know if you do not understand a particular question. Your information is very important to this project. We are interviewing people from this area to get information about their African American experiences and what has influenced your life and that of this community. We will be talking about family, daily life, education, religion, military history, social life vacation and travel, and the community changes. First of all, regarding the family, could you please give us some basic information about yourself and your family: your full name, date and place of birth, the name of your parents, children, and brothers and sisters. My name is Vernon Lee Cooper. I was bora June 8, I went to school at Holt's Chapel which is about 5 miles from here. We walked every day to and from, although we could be picked up by a bus, but the bus would meet us in the afternoon and meet us in the morning time to keep from giving us a ride. We had to walk 5 miles daily. In the 6 th grade, I transferred to Oriental School to shorten my distance in walking. I went to school in Oriental for one year. That school was condemned and I went to Bayboro in the 8 th grade. My mother and father were here with us at all times. My father was Moses Alexander Cooper. My mother's name was Esther Mae Cooper. My mother had a sister; her name was Alberta Taylor. Alberta Taylor died at an early age. She had 5 children. My mother took the 5

2 children in as her own. My mother raised them as one of us. There were 3 in my mother's family which was Vernon Cooper, Charlie B. Cooper, Willie Moses Cooper. Those were her 3 sons. She only had 3 sons; no daughters. The 5 children that she took in of her sister were: Billy Crawford Taylor, Josephine Taylor, Martha Taylor, Deloris Taylor, and Clarence Edward Taylor. The Taylor family died out at an early age. Their father died one month; 3 months later the mother died, which left the 5 children. The oldest child was only 8 years old. And, the youngest one was 6 months old. And, from there, when I went to Bayboro, I got a high school education. From there, I went to A& T College for 2 years. Then I stopped going to A & T because it was hard on my mother to send me to college with 7 other children here. So, I went to New York and I got a job working at a place called Miller Harness, everything for riding. I was able to write up mail order clerks that was coming from all over the world. Anything that came in that a horseman could use, like the stirrups, jackets, britches, shirts, neck ties, these are the things that they would order that I would order that I would have to fill the orders out. One of the reasons that I left A & T is because, when I started that job, I was making $85.00 a week. My father was making $43.00 so I decided I could make him a bill that he would not have to work as hard if I was to partially double his income per month. So that is one of the reasons I left A & T to start out working at an early age. From that particular job, I moved to another job, called K & L Color Service. It was in 1960, if I am not mistaken. I left the Miller Harness job one day. Three days later, the Cuban crisis started. I couldn't buy a job. I wound up at this place. I was supposed to be at 10 West 46 th St., Manhattan. By mistake, I went to 10 East 46 th St. I went to this place and I asked the girl for an application. She gave it to me. And she said, "Wait, maybe the boss would like to interview you." I said, "What kind of boss would want to interview somebody, what boss sits around in an employment office, waiting for somebody to come in?" So, she said, "No, we're 0

3 looking for someone." He came out and asked me if I was looking for a job. I told him "yes". He said: "What do you know about photography?" I said "absolutely nothing. My mother has a Brownie Hawkeye. You turn in one way, the picture lay down, you stand it up, she can stand it up and down." He said: "You're the person that I want." I went to this job by accident; I stayed there for 36 years. I started out as a mail clerk; I wound up as a production manager of the company. Only two people that were over me was the president and the vicepresident. I had 263 people that worked under me. So, I just took it that, by not going to college and finishing my education, that money-wise and material things I was not ever lacking. You've given us a brief synopsis of your life up through the time that you were in New York, is it? Yes. I am going to focus back on some questions about the times when you were younger, in your daily life. What were some of the thing you did on the week and the weekends as a child? Weekends as a child, we tried to find other jobs that would give us extra money, something of that nature, to help ourselves out, like going to movies and things of that nature, because the movies down here when I was a child were only fifteen cents but we didn't have fifteen cents. Were you involved in farming or working the land? No, I was not, no farming. You told us about your schools. Did you have a favorite teacher when you were going to school? Ms. Effie Fields. i

4 Ms. Effie Fields? Ms. Effie Fields, and Mr. Mann, Mr. Sultan Mann. Well, I liked Ms. Fields because she was my homeroom teacher, Sultan Mann because he was one of the guides. I liked Ms Sapp Moore, Ms Harper and I loved Ms. Farrow. Ms. Farrow was my business teacher and she was the one who taught me to type and shorthand. Do you feel that you received an education that prepared you for life and work? Yes. Do you consider yourself religious? Yes. What faith? Baptist Why do you say that you are religious? I have faith that God is the creator of all things. I know God created everything. He even created me. He knows the hairs on my head; and, God is a healer, He's a deliverer; He's a provider. God is anything that you want Him to be. And I have put my trust in himfrommy youth. I used to patternize some of the old saints that were in the church above me; like, I had an Aunt Annie; there was Ms. Daisy Leggett; there was Ms Hattie Smith, women that I thought was spiritual. And I thought, "Why can't I be that way?" About your social life, describe yourself and your life with your family, neighbors and friends? A

5 My social life...1 like to go out, I like to go to movies, I like walking in the park, having picnics, family gatherings. I am a family type person. I love my family. One time all of us came home for Christmas. There were 29 of us in the house. That is the only Christmas that I cam remember we had because all of us were here at one time. We took the mattresses of the bed; we had mattresses on the floor; we would sleep on the chairs, on the couch, and everywhere. I just thought that was gorgeous. That sound like fun. It was. What activities did you do earlier in your life? Where and when and why? Well, when we were young, we did a lot of foolish things. We loved to run with girls and go to the shops. There was the "Do Drop In"; there was a place in Aurora called the "Bloody Bucket"; there was the "Cash Corner" that Beatrice Smith, she used to be Beatrice Credle, but now she's Beatrice Smith, that was over in Aurora and like that shop down in Mesic; it was just a gathering. We always gathered and had fun, we had good fun. Like I said, the kids today don't know what fun is all about. My first baseball glove, I cut my pants above the knees so I could cut the hip pocket off so I could make me a glove. That's how I made it. I had the first glove. Then I cut pieces of the leg, and I put cotton inside and made me a glove. What do you do as a hobby or for entertainment now? Actually photography. I got a still camera and I've got a movie camera. I don't have a lot of hobbiesrightnow because those hobbies are real expensive. So I've really cut back because I had about 8 or 9 cameras, but someone broke into the house and they wiped me out so I <

6 only have 2 now; which they are cheap cameras but the ones I have before were professional cameras. Bus as of now, I just do it for myself. I take when I go to stores or something of that nature, just in case. You never know, if somebody's going to run into your car, you should always have something like that in case, you have always got evidence of who was in fault. The next topic is vacation and travel. Where when did you travel and what was it like early in your life and now? You told me about going to New York. I went on a cruise to St. Thomas, St. Martin, Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico. I went on it for 7 days and when I was in service I went to Hawaii, Okinawa, Yokohama, Tokyo, and Korea. I spent a year and a half in Korea. Speaking about the military, describe that service, and what were some of the significant events that happened while you were there. Well, in service, when I went in, I really didn't want to go in, but, I went in because I was drafted. I took my basic training at Fort Dix, New Jersey. I took my schooling at Fr. Monmouth, New Jersey. They sent me to school for photography, although I was in photography before I went in and then I continued my education in photography when I got to Korea. So, when I came out, I went back to the old job in photography that I was working in New York. Therefore, I had not only workmen's compensation in how to do photography, but yet I had the schooling for it. So when I was in the military, you go through a thing called basic training. Out of a battalion of men, which is about anywhere from 10,000 to 20,000 men, I came out number 1 with a score of 98% of the 100 points they had on the score. How has serving in the military affected people in this community? A

7 It was only a very few of us. I was the smallest in my community. I always had to compete with my peers. All of the boys up in here were at least a foot taller than me. So the thing of it is, if I played baseball, I had to be the best on the squad to fit in. If I had to run a race, I would have to come in either number one or number two. When I went to Bayboro, I did the same thing. I competed for the position that I...I guess that helped me a lot in my education, because if you had a job, my job paid me $70 and your job paid you $80,1 wanted your job. I went from $80 a week to $2500 a week. So, I just say, Thank God. God did it all for me. What do you think about the military? I loved the military. I always say the military is something that every Black, young Black should go into. First of all, it broadens your mind, gives you a chance to go and see different places. It opens up your understanding. The military, just like the slogan says, "you can be all that you want to be", if you want it. If you wanted to be a doctor, you can become it, because you have the knowledge and the push in order to do it, yet you've got the education behind you. We're going to talk now more about this community and the changes in the community. Describe this community that you live in now, what it's like? This community to me is beautiful. Why I say that is because we are all cousins. Everyone up in here, cousin Pearl, cousin Rosa, Shirley, Gent, Charlie Henry, we're all one family and I couldn't ask for a better bunch of neighbors. Some people call this a farming area. What are and were the main crops in this area? Tobacco, cotton, sweet potatoes, Iris potatoes, crops of that nature. 7

8 How much of the land is owned by Blacks? MR COOPER: In some aspects, it's quite large. Because, now, one of my cousins, now, Harley Cooper, he owns from where you turned in off the main drag, that land that was on the right hand side, he owns from that back I guess he got a few thousand acres. Not only that, he has some out on Kershaw Road. I said I thank God that somebody opened his eyes to invest in land. Has there been any change as to who owns land in this area? Well, most people don't realize it, even the Blacks that own land today in Pamlico County, if something is not done, they're going to lose it. The reason I say that is because they condominiums and the expensive housed and things that are coming up in the county the only thing that its going to do is drive the taxes up. It's going to be just like it is in Harlem today. The Blacks cannot afford to stay in Harlem because of the taxed and the rent and things of that nature. Whereas, you were paying $100 for rent, they are going to triple it. So it's going to the same thing here. We're paying say, $300 for taxed, when they build these condominiums over here, which they're a $54,000,000 project, now they've started cleaning out on this side, although they call this wetlands, it isn't going to do a thing except jack the prices up. But the people up in here, they can't see it. I don't fault them for that, because the thing of it is, if you have lived here all your life, have not been exposed to anything, you don't know. What are the names of some of the Black-owned businesses that you have used in the past, or were there any? Black businesses in the past. Or do you know of any today? B

9 Not in Pamlico County. What were some of the segregated facilities you could and could not go to early in your life? Just about all of them. Because, during the time when I was coming along, it was written on the doors and everything: Blacks this side, White this side, simple as that. And like, Moore's Barbecue in New Bern, right now, we could not go through the front door to get a sandwich. We had to go around the back side of the building in order to be served. But the thing of it is that's the way it was when I came along. In the 50s and 60s segregation was really bad in the south, yeah. Tell us about the beaches and other recreational places. When did you go and who with? Oh, the beaches around here when I came up were unbelievable. Why I say that about that, because we had, there was Styron Beach down here where I lived. Down this road where you turned off here, it's called now Wiggins Point, down here it was called Cooper's Beach. You go down about 2 miles from here, it would be called Faison's Beach. That was another beach. Then there was one in Maribel called Rainbow Beach, So we had access. But the biggest beach around here was Cooper's Beach. On holidays, on Cooper's Beach, like the 30 th of May, 4 th of July, and Labor Day, you had to walk from this road to the beach because the buses and cars were on both sides. And, yet, they had a big populated area. Were there and are there any hate groups such as the Ku Klux Klan in this area? Yes, but the thing of it is, I was not exposed to a lot of that because when I was growing up here, I knew my boundaries. If they told us we couldn't go certain places, I did not go. I didn't push the issue to try to force it that, o

10 just because you got a couple of dollars in your pocket, that you could do this and you could that. I did not do that. Because, if they said this is for Whites, I did not go in there. Unless they said they had a place for Blacks, I stayed out of it, because it was to easy to get in trouble that way. Did you know any of the Ku Klux Klan? No. But in the latter years, I found out a lot of them that I did not know that were Ku Klux Klan when I was here; but I know them now. Do these groups interfere with your life and livelihood? Now? Now. No. Is there any Hispanic population in the area? No. But in New York, some of my bestfriendswere Spanish. Absolutely. Spanish and Haitian and West Indians. And I had a few Jews; ones that taught me. Yeah. They will do that. They will do that; if they like you, they will teach you. Adult years: what have been some of the important events of your life? Marriage. I've always wanted two children; I wanted a boy and I wanted a girl. And thank God he blessed me with a boy and a girl. The boy is 41 and the girl is 37. What significant events do you recall (i.e., The Depression, World War n, Korean Conflict, Vietnam, in

11 Civil Rights Era, 9/11, the assassinations of Martin Luther King Jr., Malcolm X. John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy)? Tell us what these events mean to you. Well I know when the Second World War started. Things were sort of lean on this end. What I mean by that, I know my mother and father had what they called a ration book; that you could only buy or produce, one way or another. They only let you have two pounds of sugar. They might let you have ten pounds of flour or something of that nature. Although you might have the money, you could only buy so much. We're almost to the closing now, and I want to know is there anything you would like to and that we have not talked about in this interview. I do a lot of volunteer work. I love going to see the sick. I love praying with them. I love reading the Bible to them and color don't mean nothing. I learned a long time ago that just because you're white and I'm Black, as long as you treat me right, I'm going to treat you the same way. And so, the thing is, my thing is color shouldn't be a barrier. Because, the thing of it is, that person could not determine what color he was going to come out: black, green, purple or whatever and neither could I. The only thing of it is, treat me as a human being. You treat me the way you want to be treated, not the way I treat you, but the way that you want to be treated. If you do that, then therefore, everything would be all right. Absolutely. Do you have any words of wisdom of our younger people? Well, number one, I would say, we should get a good education. Because the thing of it is, when I came along, and I finished school in '58, you should get a good education and get a good job. Now, that no longer applies to the younger generation. The thing of it is, you've got to get yourself a Masters or Doctorates in 11

12 order to just make it. I said that to say this: I was hiring a guy for a position in New York for a mail clerk's job. He came there with a PHD, looking for a mail clerk's job. Why? Because he could not get a job. And I said, I'm sorry but you're overqualified. He said: "Mr. Cooper, I've got an E2. The PHD that I have behind my name don't mean anything. When I wake up in the morning, my stomach is still hungry." And that tore me up. And yet, here's a man that went to school, got all this education, but yet he still cannot use it. Why? Because, like I'm here telling him, he's overqualified. But that person has to eat also. My thing is, if you want something today in life, (I talked to my kids about this all the time), seek yefirstthe kingdom of God. He didn't say some things, a few things, he said all things will be added unto you. Just ask in my name, ask in faith, and I'll give it to you. You know something (knocked on wood), not bragging, I've never wanted for nothing one day in my life that I didn't get. Why? Because I always asked God. You asked me about my religion. I truly trust God. I had cancer; I was 80% gone. Thank God, I'm cancer-free. I had a heart attack. My heart now beats 100%. And so, you say "Do you believe in God?" You don't want me to start so I'm not going to start. Because, a lot of people say "You're always talking about what God has done for you." I say, "Boy, you don't want me to start, because God has been truly good to me. He has blessed mefromthe rocking of my cradle up until now and I'll never forget what he has done for me. And if I can help you, the only thing you've got to do is ask. That's all. Okay. Thank you so much for sharing your recollections. Your voice has been empowering for this project. This ends the interview. 19