This is an interview with Mitchell W. Schaffer for In the Age of Steel: Oral Histories from Bethlehem Pennsylvania.

Transcription

1 This is an interview with Mitchell W. Schaffer for In the Age of Steel: Oral Histories from Bethlehem Pennsylvania. The interview was conducted by Mary Jean Tutelian on April 16, 1975 in Allentown, Pennsylvania. 00:00:00 Tutelian: with Mr. Mitchell Schaffer, 1404 Gail Avenue, Allentown [Pennsylvania], April 16 th, Mr. Schaffer, were you born in Allentown? Schaffer: I was born in Bethlehem. Tutelian: Did you live in Bethlehem most of your life before moving here? Schaffer: Yes, I did, with the exception of about ten years I ve lived in California, and I lived in different parts of the world because I was a tour leader. I worked for SITA World Travel. 1 My wife and I were tour leaders, and we took people around the world on tours for ten years. Tutelian: Was that since you left Bethlehem Steel? Schaffer: Yes, it was. That s right. 00:01:02 Tutelian: How did you start to work at Bethlehem Steel Company? Schaffer: I received my first job through Dr. Loyal A. Shoudy 2, Chief Surgeon of the Bethlehem Steel Company, who I have known as a personal friend, and right after the worst part of Depression 3 he was able to get me in. Then I went to school and I became an electric first class welder. Tutelian: While you were working at Bethlehem you went to school? 1 The Students International Travel Association, now known as SITA World Travel, was originally founded to allow students to take bicycle tours in Europe at a time when international travel was unusual for the average person. The company later expanded to serving adults and conducting tours around the globe. 2 Loyal A. Shoudy ( ) was the Chief Surgeon of Bethlehem Steel Corporation, joining the company in Shoudy conducted a number of studies to assist in efforts to prevent silicosis, lead poisoning and tuberculosis. 3 The Great Depression, an economic downturn that lasted from 1929 till 1939.

2 Schaffer: Yes. When I was working at Bethlehem, I went there to welding school. Tutelian: What year did you start to work at Bethlehem Steel? Schaffer: (pause) About 1934, to the best of my knowledge. Tutelian: And you retired a few years ago, did you? Schaffer: I didn t retire, I left there because of discouragement of my job and of harassment from the company. Tutelian: What kind of work did you do at Bethlehem Steel while you worked there over the years? Schaffer: Over the years, I worked in the shipping gang in one department, and then after that I became a welder and we did mostly construction work. (recording paused) 00:02:39 Tutelian: What were the conditions of work like at Bethlehem in that earlier period when you first started to work there? Schaffer: It was like Is this on now? It was like any other place. We worked on piece rate 4, and you had to keep going all day in order to make a decent day s pay, and there was nothing easy about it. The work was very hard, especially in the hot summer when you did electric welding. I remember very distinctly we d go in in the morning around seven o clock, and around eight o clock, we were completely soaking wet with perspiration, and we d hang our clothes up at nighttime to dry. We d come in the next morning, our clothes were still wet, and we d put on our wet clothes and go back to work again. It was day after day of that type of work during the summer months. 00:03:42 Tutelian: How long was the workday during this period? Schaffer: The workday was an eight hour day, and five days a week, with the exception if sometimes you worked overtime which you were paid time and a half. Tutelian: Was that in the earlier period too? 4 A piece-rate system usually bases a part of a worker's compensation on the number of pieces completed.

3 Schaffer: No. In the earlier period, I worked ten hours a day, six days a week, and with much less wages. Tutelian: The reason for the reduced number of hours in the later period was what? Why did they reduce the hours? Schaffer: I think the only reason they reduced the hours was because organized labor and demanding that the hours be cut. 00:04:33 Tutelian: How was the salary in the earlier period as compared with maybe later? Schaffer: I remember when I first began there, if I made 50 cents an hour, I was doing very well, swinging about a 25 pound sledgehammer breaking billets 5. Then later on after I became a first class welder, the wages were quite a bit more. 00:04:59 Tutelian: Did the company encourage you to go to school, or did you do that on your own? Schaffer: No. I did that on my own. I wanted to better myself. Tutelian: You paid for the schooling yourself. Schaffer: I didn t pay. The company paid for schooling and they paid their instructors to teach us, which was paid by the company. Tutelian: I see. So in that sense, the company had a school. If you wanted to, could anyone go, or did they pick people? Schaffer: I guess anyone could go if they had the openings for them. Many more would have wanted to go, but there were no openings. They couldn t teach everybody to weld. Tutelian: Did they teach you right in the plant? Schaffer: Right in the plant. That s right. Tutelian: After hours or something? 5 A solid semi-finished round or square product that has been hot worked by forging, rolling or extrusion.

4 Schaffer: It was after hours. It was also during some of our work hours. Yeah. Tutelian: Did many men do this sort of thing? Schaffer: No. I wouldn t say many, not in relation to the number of steelworkers in the Bethlehem plant. Tutelian: Do you think the only reason why a lot of them didn t do it was because they couldn t have gotten into the classes or do you think they just didn t have the interest? 00:06:24 Schaffer: I think a lot of them didn t do it because they thought they couldn t get into the classes. This personal friend of mine, Dr. Loyal A. Shoudy, he was the Chief Surgeon of Bethlehem Steel Company, and I got to know him when I went to high school and when I was 17, my father died, and my mother asked me to quit school because she needed the income and I said, `I want to finish school. So finally I left home and from 17 on I was on my own. I tended bar at nighttime and I worked over at Bricker s Baking Company 6 from eight o clock at night til one o clock in the morning washing bread trucks in order to get through as far as I did in high school. Tutelian: And was it after this period that you first went to work at Bethlehem Steel? Schaffer: Yes. That s right. Then I went to work in the Bethlehem Steel after this period. Tutelian: So in effect you were a more independent type of person really, having had that early experience, I suppose. Schaffer: I would say yes because it wasn t so easy to work from 8 o clock at night til 1 o clock in the morning washing trucks and then I wouldn t get back to my hotel room til about 1:30. Then I d get up again seven o clock and go to school. It wasn t too easy for somebody as young as I was, only 17 years old. 00:07:55 Tutelian: How about the men that you worked with in the early days, Mr. Schaffer? What were they like, that is before the union? What kind of people did you meet working in Bethlehem Steel? 6 Bricker's Bakery later became Bethlehem Baking Co. and then Shaible s Bakery. It was located in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.

5 Schaffer: In a plant as huge as the Bethlehem Steel, and at the Bethlehem plant, you met all kinds of nationalities: Hungarians, Slavs 7, Italians, Greeks and Germans, and just about everything you could think of, and they were all hard-working people. I d say a great, great majority of them worked under conditions that they didn t like, and most of them didn t like their jobs. They were just there because they needed money for bread and butter. Tutelian: Did these groups get along well together or were there difficulties? 00:08:58 Schaffer: I would say in the average shop they got along well together. There was a little petty jealousy just like you find in any other place. And I would say generally they got along very well because when I became a part-time organizer for the Steelworkers Organizing Committee 8, it was very easy for me to sign men up into the union. Tutelian: The recent immigrants signed up as readily as the others? Schaffer: When you say others, you mean Americans? Tutelian: Yeah. Schaffer: I would say immigrants signed up first. Yeah. We Tutelian: Why do you think they did sign up first? Schaffer: What was that? Tutelian: Why do you think they signed up first? Schaffer: I would say they were more militant and they knew that only coming probably from Europe they knew only by joining together would they get better conditions and their job would be secure, they wouldn t be discriminated against, because we had some bad conditions in the steel company at the time. 7 People of Slovakian descent. 8 The Steel Workers Organizing Committee (SWOC) was established by the CIO (Congress of Industrial Organizations) in SWOC and the Amalgamated Association of Iron and Steel Workers were disbanded in 1942 and the United Steel Workers of America were established.

6 00:09:53 I know one Superintendent by the name of John A. Gross 9, the superintendent of the laborers. He had a lot of foreign-born workers working in his department, and although I never saw him do it himself, I ve been told by different members of the union that time, before they become union members, he had a habit of going around kicking men in the rear end when they disturbed him too much, and he used very foul language at them. And I also worked under, in the boiler shop, electric welding, we had a gentleman by the name of Mr. Lewis Fine 10. He had a habit of using very foul language at the men just as though they were some kind of animals or dogs, and I know the department I worked in, we never had any heat, and it was a huge, large building, very high roof on it, to let the fumes get out and in the wintertime, it was very, very cold in there. You always had to be dressed up with a couple coats and sweaters on and extra socks. I know on a number of occasions when men would have these little coffee stoves, he d go around and rip them out, rip the plug out of the wall and break them so they wouldn t be wasting time drinking coffee. Tutelian: He was a superintendent. Schaffer: He was a superintendent, Mr. Gross, the superintendent. Yeah. Tutelian: Why do you think they acted that way? Did they just hate the men? Schaffer: I don t say they hated the men, but I guess they were always in fear of themselves, of not getting enough production from their department. There was always somebody else waiting for their jobs, and they were out to do better than their predecessor. Tutelian: Did they get raises for doing better themselves, or did they get placed in higher positions or anything like that? Schaffer: You mean the superintendents? Tutelian: Yes. 9 Project staff were unable to identify this person. 10 Possibly Lewis Fine, who was chief engineer for Budd Wheel Corp. before being hired as an engineer for the automotive wheel division of Bethlehem Steel in 1921.

7 Schaffer: I m not in a position to say that, but I would think that when there were promotions, like for a general manager of a plant or some higher offices, why those that produced the best, just like anything else, they re going to pick the best men to be placed up in better jobs. 00:12:20 Tutelian: What were the foremen like? Schaffer: The foremen were just like anybody else. They usually lived in fear of their jobs or lived in fear of somebody below them taking their job, and the foremen were always pushing the men, push, push, push, to get more production out. There were some foremen that were capable of treating the men half decent, but there were many that were not. Tutelian: Did the foremen ever, that you heard of or that you witnessed, take bribes from the men or anything like this? Schaffer: No. That I can t say. I don t think that ever happened in places I worked in Bethlehem Steel. I don t think anything like that ever went on. Tutelian: How did the men feel about the foreman and the superintendents that weren t nice people? Schaffer: Oh, the men were very bitter, very, very bitter about men working under conditions like that. 00:13:19 Tutelian: Did they ever try to slow up deliberately. Did you, not specifically, but did you ever hear of anything like this just to get at them? Schaffer: I don t think they ever intended to slow up because then in the piece rate system, if you slowed up, your paycheck was smaller then. Tutelian: Oh yeah, under piece rate. Schaffer: Yes. Tutelian: How about those that could do the job in a faster time than the time that was indicated? Do you think that they tried to spread out those hours then so they wouldn t be reduced in situations like that?

8 Schaffer: Those that could do the job in a faster time than others were usually men with more experience, with the years of more experience, and when they could do the job faster then they went on the next job and their earnings would be higher at the end of the pay period. Tutelian: I see. People like that, were they looked on as threats by the other men in the sense that the other men then would be forced to speed up? In other words the (inaudible) would be changed? Schaffer: I would say that human nature, and I know that this happened in different places where I worked and with different men that if one man would work his fool head off and get the job done in real much less time that I would say some of the others didn t like the idea. But at the same token, I would say the others that were slower weren t slower because they were loafing on the job; they were slower because they just didn t have the ability, they didn t have the experience to do the job much faster, but over a period of time, they would gradually catch up and work a little faster. After all, you can only work so fast, and then you come to a breaking point. I know many times there in the hot summer, it was pretty miserable, the welding especially with quarter-inch electric rods and have all that heat coming up and coming up underneath your hood and coming up on your body, and that was pretty rough. Tutelian: As a welder, Mr. Schaffer, did you move from one shop to another or did you more or less stay in the same shop? Schaffer: No. I was in one shop usually most of the time. I was always just in that one shop. Tutelian: And which one was that? Schaffer: That was in a boiler shop. 00:15:58 Tutelian: How did the union movement get started there? Schaffer: If I m correct, in July of 1936, which is quite a long time ago, as I said before, conditions were pretty bad in big industry in this country, and the CIO was formed, the Committee for Industrial Organization 11, through men like Philip Murray 12 and 11 The Committee for Industrial Organization was created by John L. Lewis in 1935 when the American Federation of Labor was reluctant to organize unskilled laborers.

9 McDonald 13 and through John L. Lewis 14 and the United Mining Workers of America [United Mine Workers of America] 15, and they set up a certain cash fund to organize the steel industry and that s how it got started, because they realized as long as steel, which was the basic industry in our country, if they were not organized, the miners were always in fear of union-busting tactics, and they knew that if some of the workers weren t organized, the other workers in the unions weren t safe, and they knew conditions were terrible in the steel industry, and they knew that the workers wanted to be organized. Tutelian: How about at Bethlehem? How did it get started at Bethlehem specifically? What did they 00:17:53 Schaffer: At that time, I guess I was about 25 or maybe 27 years old, and I heard through the press and through the radio at that time that this Committee for Industrial Organization was going to be formed, and I knew that the Bethlehem plant was one of the main plants in the country, and I was looking forward for them to set up an office here. And the very day that they did, I guess I was about the first one to walk in, because prior to that, I was on a ship going to Europe and all the Scandinavian countries, which I received a job through Dr. Loyal Shoudy there also. I was a cadet, and these different freight ships, they carried passengers and freight and it was called the Moore-McCormack Steamship Lines [Moore-McCormack Lines] 16 I think Bethlehem Steel had something to do with them at the time, and during the Depression when I couldn t find a job, I was talking to Dr. Shoudy one day and he asked me if I d like to get onto one of these passenger and freight ships, and I said that would be fine if he could do it because I was supporting myself. I had no other means of support, and it wasn t easy because I remember just prior to that, I hitchhiked down to Florida during the worst time in Depression, and I guess I hitchhiked about 1,200 miles. When I got down there, I got a job $10 a week, and out of the $10 I had to pay $3 for my room rent, and I worked 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. Then that was only for the winter months, so when the winter months were over, then I was out of a job again. So when I come back, Dr. 12 Served as the first president of the Steel Workers Organizing Committee (SWOC) and the first president of the United Steelworkers of America (USWA). 13 David J. McDonald was appointed secretary-treasurer of the Steel Workers Organizing Committee upon its formation in He ultimately served as president of the United Steelworkers of America from A major figure in organized labor, Lewis served as president of the United Mine Workers of America (UMW) from 1920 to The United Mine Workers of America is a union formed in 1890 to represent the interests of mining workers. 16 Founded in 1913, the Moore-McCormack Lines was a major American shipping firm. In 1928, the firm, using the American Scantic Line (purchased from the U.S. government), became a shipping agent for the Soviet Union.

10 Shoudy asked me if I d like to get on one of these ships and I said I sure would. Then I was running between New York and Leningrad 17, Russia. Tutelian: What did you do on the ship? Schaffer: I was in the Engineering Department, and they were teaching me to become like an Assistant Engineer. 18 I would go around learning all of their machinery and things like that, and that s what I did. I remember my first trip over was in the middle of the winter, and when I go we had the North Atlantic run. That was very tough, and sometimes it got so bad you couldn t even go out on the top part of your ship. The waves were coming over all the time, and I was a little scared, but after I got seasick and it passed away, then the fear left me. Then I kept running between New York and Leningrad, Russia. I made quite a number of trips. Tutelian: Did you get to see anything over there, have time off the ship? Schaffer: Oh yes. Being I was the youngest member, I guess I was 18 or 19, I was the youngest member of the crew, the Chief Engineer 19 would always pick me to run errands for him in all these different ports, like to take company papers from the ship to the main offices, and that game me plenty of time. That was a good experience. Tutelian: I bet it was. Schaffer: I remember when I first saw my first iceberg, it was really the thrill of my life. 00:20:56 Tutelian: That must have been something just to go into Russia then. Schaffer: Oh yes. We were one of the first ships into Russia at the time, and it was really something to see, and over there, while we were working here 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, in Russia they were working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. 17 The Russian city of Saint Petersburg was renamed Petrograd in Upon Vladimir Lenin's death in 1924, the city was renamed Leningrad and in 1991 the name was changed again, back to Saint Petersburg. 18 Various classes of assistant engineers are responsible for different systems, or groups of systems, on a ship. 19 Responsible for all of a ship's mechanical systems.

11 Tutelian: Is that right? Schaffer: Yeah. I ll never forget that. All these things I read in the local newspapers about people starving in Russia and how terrible it was, and when I got over there I found that not to be true. Tutelian: It was just propaganda probably. Schaffer: It was propaganda, but I couldn t get over it, how they took care of their people over there, especially the school children, even though they weren t too many years out of their own revolution and they were a very poor country at the time. You can see now, when they put up Sputnik 20, that awoke everybody throughout the whole world. And I always had the belief before I went to Russia that they couldn t make an alarm clock over there and make it work, and the average person even had that up until just ten years ago, and they thought the Russians couldn t make anything because we were taught that way over here, which wasn t the truth. Then they came with Sputnik and that opened up the minds and the eyes of many millions and millions of people. Tutelian: And you already knew some of that (inaudible). Schaffer: I already knew after visited there. I could see, and I remember that they treated us very nice in Russia, especially when they found out we were from the United States. 00:22:31 Tutelian: Not to stop completely on that, but I d like to get back to the SWOC 21 thing, you know the organizing thing. Schaffer: SWOC. Tutelian: You were one of the first people that got into that. Schaffer: I m sorry. Then when I found out the union was setting up headquarters on 3rd Street, I went in and from what they told me I was the first one to sign a union card 22 in Bethlehem. 20 Launched on October 4, 1957 by the Soviet Union, the satellite Sputnik 1 was the first man-made object to orbit the Earth. 21 The Steel Workers Organizing Committee (SWOC) was established by the CIO (Congress of Industrial Organizations) in SWOC and the Amalgamated Association of Iron and Steel Workers were disbanded in 1942 and the United Steel Workers of America were established

12 Tutelian: After you did that, did you become an organizer? Schaffer: Yes. I became an assistant, well, an organizer, a part-time organizer. Tutelian: Who were the men who were in the SWOC office when you walked in that day? Who were some of the people? Any of the bigger names that you hear connected with it like Murray? Schaffer: There was a Mr. Lewis, not John L. Lewis, Garfield Lewis 23. There was a Mr. Garfield Lewis and gee, I can t remember some of the names anymore. Tutelian: Was Joseph Lever 24 around at that time? Schaffer: Jack Lever came a little later on, yes. He was one of the early men, Jack Lever. Did you ever meet him? Tutelian: Just missed him not too long ago, up at Hazleton. Schaffer: Oh, that s the one, (inaudible) you were talking about Jack Lever, that's right. He was there, and then Mr. John Ramsey 25 was one of the first ones in Bethlehem to come. I guess you heard Mr. Ramsey. Tutelian: Yeah. He was mentioned to me. So you got involved with the organization. What did you do then? Schaffer: I still worked in the Bethlehem Steel Company and the union organizer from SWOC asked me, they said, `Mitch, do you think you could help us out organizing some of the men here in your department and other departments? I said, `Yes, I think I could, because see, I had experience with some of the unions when I went to sea with Merchant Marines union, and I knew that sooner or later we had to have some kind of an organization in Bethlehem because I knew of the conditions and 22 A worker signs a union card to indicate that he/she wishes to be represented by a union. 23 Garfield Lewis was a SWOC director for Eastern Pennsylvania. 24 Emil John Jack Lever ( ) was a SWOC field director from and a labor educator for the United Steelworkers of America. 25 John Gates Ramsey was served as a vice president of a local union of the Amalgamated Association of Iron, Steel, and Tin Workers at Bethlehem Steel in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, president of Steel Workers Organizing Committee Local 1409 in Bethlehem, and later a community organizer with the United Steelworkers of America.

13 I knew no person s job was secure, and even though you could work down there years, if you had nobody to protect you, boy, you could lose your job and that was just it. 00:24:58 And another reason why I knew we had to have a union, I ve known cases where old men who were laid off after many, many years of work and they had no comeback to get their jobs back, and I ve heard of cases where before the union came, if they wanted to get rid of a man after working there so many years and they wanted to give him a small pension, they d take him off his regular job and tell him, `Now John, you have to go and get an eye examination. Your eyes are going bad. And in many cases they didn t know whether his eyes were going bad or not, that was just an excuse. Because I had these men come and tell me this. And naturally after working 25 or 30 years in the steel mill and looking at a lot of hot metal and things like that, your eyes are going to get weak, so when these steelworkers would go out to a doctor to get an eye examination they would find some faults with their eyes, so when they d go back into the plant, they were told by management, `Now we have to take you off your regular job and put you on something like being a janitor or something. This would be just about a year or two before his pension. Then when they would pension him, they d give him a pension not as a skilled steel worker; they d give him a pension as a janitor, and his pension would be much less. That was one of the tricks they pulled. I remember when I became President of Local , it s bad enough to see a woman come into your office and cry about she can t make ends meet at home, but when old men, old steelworkers would come into your office and cry that they were being taken advantage of, that really gets to you. I ve seen that happen many, many times where they took advantage of them. Tutelian: I ve heard the same stories too. 00:26:57 Schaffer: There are some I know. Nobody s paying me to lie. They can never change my idea about the conditions there. I remember when I first started to organize in the Bethlehem Steel Company, it only took them a few weeks to find out what I was doing, and they had a Chief of Police there by the name of Garrett Roach. 27 The Bethlehem Steel police at that time were more feared by the steelworkers then the local city police, and years ago, when Pennsylvania had what was known as 26 Steel Workers Organizing Committee Local 1409 was established at Bethlehem, Pennsylvania in Garrett P. Roach was the chief of the Bethlehem Steel police force.

14 a Coal and Iron Police 28 and they could come into your house and arrest you or beat you up just like a city policeman could because the companies dominated everything. When I first stared to organize, it was only a few weeks before my superintendent come to me and asked me what I thought of the union and why I m working to get these gangsters in to organize the men. He called them gangsters. I said, `Mr. Fine, I said, `these are no gangsters. I said, `These men are here to bring up the economy of the average working person, and I think in time it ll benefit not only the workers but also the company. He was just down against the union because he was told that by his superiors. He said, `If I were you, I would just forget about this. He said, `because they re only going to get you into a lot of trouble. You re going to lose a lot of pay through strikes. And when that didn t take effect, the top management must have gotten a hold of chief surgeon of the Bethlehem Steel Company, Dr. Shoudy, who was a personal friend of mine, because as I said, the diffent favors he did for me, and Dr. Shoudy asked me about what I thought of the union, but at least he was fair about it. He didn t tell me to throw it up or he didn t tell me the union was this or that and it wouldn t benefit me. He just said, `Mitch, use your sound judgment, and I remember to this day that he put his arms across my shoulder and he said, `Well, he said, `you use your best judgment and think it over, and that s the way he told me. But when the superintendent would come to you, he d threaten you with your job and everything and tell you a lot of lies, but that didn t keep me from still organizing. At lunch, at that time, we would get a half an hour for lunch, so instead of eating my lunch, I wouldn t, I started not to take lunch, and in that half hour I would get around and sign up the men. I d have application cards in my pocket and I d sign these men up and I d explain to them what the union is about, which most of them knew, then it was only about a month or so later when they had this Garrett Roach, chief of the Bethlehem Steel Police, about 5 minutes before 12 before the whistle would blow for our lunch, he would come into the shop and stand about 10 feet away from me and stand right there, so whenever I would go anyplace, if I d sneak over into another shop (inaudible) lunchtime, he d be right there to see that I didn t do it. When I would go to other men and ask them about signing up with the union with him ten feet away from me, naturally most of the men at that time lived in fear of losing their jobs, and I guess I was just about in every steelworker s home in Bethlehem here, because at nighttime I would work until about 10, 11, 12 o clock at night to get these men signed up, and 28 In 1866 the Pennsylvania legislature extended the law authorizing private railroad police forces to allow businesses involved in mining and iron production to do the same. Police officers received commissions from the state and were paid by their employers.

15 on more than one occasion, I was asked to leave some of the steelworker s homes because the wives were in deadly fear of the union. And not all steelworkers gladly accepted the union. Many lived in fear of the union also because they were afraid they were going to lose their jobs because the steel company was putting pressure on them through their supervisors. I was asked by more than one to leave the house, but then later on those people would get the message and they d finally sign up. I think our greatest boost to the union was President Roosevelt, and also Section 7(a) 29 of the Wagner Act 30 which gave us the right to organize. But even though we had Section 7(a) of the Wagner Act, that didn t stop Bethlehem Steel Company from discriminating against us. Tutelian: Is that the way they got back at you when you were organizing or when a man joined, they d in a sense discriminate against him in some way? Schaffer: Oh yes, and when we would put groups out at the plant gates to sign these men up, the Bethlehem Steel Company would send a group of supervisors out there along with the local police and the Bethlehem Steel Company police and they d stand all around, so the minute these men coming on the next shift, they d be afraid to sign the cards for us, so then we had to start to go around to their homes. Tutelian: That was probably the best way to get them. Schaffer: That was the best way to get them, or else in clubs and other places. I remember when we first started to organize we would make placards about our meetings, when they were going to be held, and we would put them in these different store windows, and a few minutes later Garrett Roach would come around with some of his policemen and they d go in and they d talk to the store owners and I never heard them directly, but the store owners would tell me that they re sorry but they had to take the placards out of the windows, so I could just imagine that they went in there and threatened them. 29 Section 7 of the National Labor Relations Act (Wagner Act) gave employees the right to organize and bargain collectively free of interference and intimidation from their employers. Section 7(a) refers to a similar provision in a predecessor bill, the National Industrial Recovery Act, passed in 1933 and declared unconstitutional in The National Labor Relations Act (Wagner Act), signed into law by Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1935, was passed to guarantee workers the right to selforganization, to form, join, or assist labor organizations, to bargain collectively through representatives of their own choosing, and to engage in concerted activities for the purpose of collective bargaining or other mutual aid and protection.

16 Tutelian: How could the company threaten these stores? Schaffer: From what I was told, the steel company had control of the whole city, and many of these store owners had mortgages which weren t clear, and the Bethlehem Steel Company knew who were the mortgage holders and things like that. Tutelian: They had connections with the banks and they were Schaffer: Yeah sure, with the banks, with the doctors, and just about everything. In other words, this was a real open town here, and it was very hard for us to get started. For the men, when we would sign up a man, it was just like being in the underground and men would sign up would say, `Please don t tell anybody I joined the union until we get the 52%. They lived in total fear. I ll never forget that. 00:34:05 Tutelian: The company claimed they had a union already, the Employees Representation. 31 Schaffer: The Employees Representation was just a farce. They could get you things like new toilet seats or new sink bowls or new baseball gloves or something like that for your baseball teams, but real issues like that, they were always talked down at the meetings, and those men that participated in the Employees Representation Plan, I d say the big majority of them were men without any caliber and they were only in there to gain favors from their foremen. Tutelian: Did any of those men then become members of the union? Schaffer: Oh yes. Later on when they saw I know the ones that were in my shop, they were supposed to represent us with the company, those men when they saw later on that I had the majority of the men into the union, then they jumped over with us. They jumped on the winning bandwagon, but prior to that they fought me tooth and nail. Tutelian: The company held onto that for a long time. They didn t want to give that up, did they? Schaffer: No. The company held on to that for many, many years. 31 The Employee Representation Plan (ERP) was a company union. Employees could file grievances, but could not strike or negotiate on wages.

17 Tutelian: They fought it with the Labor Board too, didn t they? Schaffer: Oh yes. In fact, at that time, they had Hoyt Moore 32 which was the law firm that defeated the NRA in a Schecter 33 brothers case. I think the Schecter brothers were from Brooklyn. 34 They were in the poultry deal business, and they brought up their case in Washington and they had this Hoyt Moore to defend them, and if I remember correctly he won his case and the NRA was abolished then, and that Hoyt Moore was also the representative and a lawyer for the Bethlehem Steel Company when the NRA had their lawyers for us to testify against the Employees Representation Plan. The case come up at the Allentown courthouse, and I was on the witness stand for three days and four hours, eight hours a day continuously. Just imagine being on the witness stand for eight hours a day for three days and four hours, and naturally I didn t have much of an education compared to somebody like Hoyt Moore. They thought by getting a very skilled lawyer like that that he could trick a lot of us steelworkers up, but all we had to do was tell the truth. It was very hard for him to trick us up, and we through that, I think the Employees Representation Plan was finished. 00:37:07 Tutelian: Where did this Moore come from? He wasn t from Bethlehem, was he? Schaffer: No. I think Moore might have been from New York, and I remember after when we were organizing the Bethlehem plant and there were some steelworkers from Lebanon, Pennsylvania came up to us to ask us to send some representatives down from our union to help organize them. We went down there one weekend and they had all their police force out and we were at a meeting there and they had representatives there that we call the union busters. There was one fellow by the name of Case (sp?) and this John Rife (sp?) which then was one of our organizers from the Pittsburgh office, he recognized him in different places throughout Ohio and he was known as a union buster. He would come into a steel town when the union was first beginning and they would call a meeting of all the steelworkers. Now this was done by the steel company itself under the auspices of the Employees Representation Plan. This Mr. Case (sp?) got up and started telling them how bad the union was and how their freedoms would be taken away from them, and when I asked for the floor, I wanted to give our version of the story, two policemen from the back part of 32 Hoyt A. Moore was a partner with Cravath, Swain, and Moore. Bethlehem Steel was a major client. 33 The National Industrial Recovery Act (NIRA) established industrial codes to govern trade, practices, and labor practices through the creation of the National Recovery Administration (NRA). The Supreme Court declared the code system unconstitutional in the case of Schecter v. United States. 34 Schecter Poultry, located in Brooklyn, was accused of selling unhealthy and uninspected chickens. The Supreme Court ruled against the government because the Schecters were not engaged in interstate commerce.

18 the wall come and grabbed a hold of me and were starting to throw me out. We had about, I guess 10 or 12 fellows there from the Bethlehem plant, and we also had some good union members there from the Lebanon plant 35 and naturally a riot started, a free-for-all started. I know that some of us got beat up pretty bad. They also called the state police in, and I was taken down to the city jail and they must have picked me as one of the leaders here in Bethlehem Steel I guess. Probably at the first they didn t know who I was, but they figured I must be a union organizer from some other place, steel plant. So they took me down into the police headquarters in Lebanon and when they got me down there they had six city policemen in a circle and they had me in the middle of the circle and at that time I received the worst beating of my life. Tutelian: They beat you up? Schaffer: Oh, they beat me up. They punched me, kicked me, and I had blood running all out of my mouth, out of my nose. And I remember to this day yet, there was about 12 or 15 concrete steps down into the cellar of this city jail and they got me there and they just pushed me as hard as they could and hadn t I been in very good physical condition, because I always kept myself in good condition, I was always used to going hiking and canoeing even in those years, even after I got married, I kept this right up and I was in good condition, and they threw me down these stairs. I went head over heels, just rolled down like a barrel, and they put me into a cell there that I had no place to sit. I either had to stand or when I sat down I had to sit down with my knees almost up to my chin, and I couldn t lay out, it wasn t big enough. I guess it was probably what I would call a torture cell, and they had me there and I remember the next day I think was Columbus Day and the union couldn t get me bail and I had to stay there for a couple days under those conditions. I remember that first night it was awful cold and damp there and I asked the jailor for a blanket and he said, `We don t have any blankets here, and they didn t give me anything to eat for about 24 hours. I ll never forget that. Tutelian: Why do you think the police acted that way? Schaffer: The police just, Bethlehem Steel had a lot of influence in those days, and anybody that ran for office ran with the backing of these steel companies. In each steel city, the steel company would put up their own men and I ve known, I ve spoken to 35 Owned by Bethlehem Steel and located in Lebanon, Pennsylvania, this steel mill was purchased in 1917 and was originally named the Pennsylvania Bolt & Nut Company.

19 diffent politicians here in Bethlehem, and they always claimed that Bethlehem Steel was never paying their right share of taxes in relation to the average steelworker, and naturally steel companies would want their own politicians and their own tax assessors in order to save themselves millions and millions of dollars with their taxes. Those are the conditions we had to go under in those days. Yep. Tutelian: What happened when you got out of there? Schaffer: When I got out, we had our lawyers from Easton [Pennsylvania], John O Brien (sp?) 36, and we had him come there and he got us out on bail and then later on our case come up and we won the case because we had Section 7A [Section 7] of the Wagner Act to protect us.. Tutelian: In which court did you win it? (inaudible) Schaffer: We won it in Lebanon. (recording paused) What were we talking about? Tutelian: I think we were talking about after you were arrested and then the trial. Schaffer: Oh yeah. Tutelian: When you came back then after that, you took up your organizing activities once again, Mr. Schaffer? Schaffer: Yes, I did. Yes. I took up my organizing activities and we continued to build a membership stronger and stronger til I think we had about 52%, then we called for a vote which we won. 00:43:00 Tutelian: Between 37 [1937] and 41 [1941], it seems that things began to pick up because there was a strike in 37 [1937] and then there was one in 41 [1941]. Could you tell us something about the 41 [1941] strike in depth? (recording paused) Schaffer: Where was I? (recording paused) The strike in 41 [1941], the company was using a lot of patriotic slogans that we shouldn t go on strike and things like that, but the steelworkers realized that they needed the union very bad, and then we 36 Project staff were unable to identify this person.

20 had a pro-labor government in and we knew if we didn t get it now, we ll never get it and even though it was still very difficult to get the union in and to make the steel company abide by the laws, we finally had the election and we won. Tutelian: What was the strike like? Schaffer: For some of us who were the leaders of the strike, it meant many, many hours of sleep and frustration and for many others they were still fearful if they lost the strike they d lose their jobs because that was always (inaudible) into their minds. (recording paused) try to keep all violence down because once the public opinion gets against you, you re defeating your own cause. We also knew that from past labor history in our country how companies would ferment [foment] the violence themselves and get you to start violence, so they could call the state police in. Tutelian: They d call the state police in, in this (inaudible). Schaffer: First they d call the city police, then the city police would call the county sheriff, and then if the county sheriff couldn t keep order, then he d call the state police in. And I remembered in our one strike in I think it was 41 [1941] when (recording paused) Tutelian: We were talking about the strike, Mr. Schaffer, in 41 [1941]. What do you think caused the violence, because of the state police coming in? Schaffer: As company claims, or the local officials claimed the state police were brought in because of the violence and it s just like anything else, when you re working and you want better conditions, and you think you re being cheated on your piece rate systems, and you think you re not being dealt with as an American citizen, and you re being cheated and you re being discriminated against, the last plunge you take is to get into the union and do something about it to better your conditions. Then when you see some of these fellows that there s always some that don t care what they receive as long as they have a job, and when you see the type of a person, when you re doing your best to better his condition besides yours also and you see him trying to get in to break the strike, which would probably mean your job and your kids will go hungry, you re going to fight for your rights, and we had a right to organize under Section 7A [Section 7] of the Wagner Act. When they come in and go through the picket line, that would arouse the men at these gates and one thing led to another and there d be arguments and fights which we tried to avoid because we didn t want the state police to be brought in, but in the least pretense the steel company would have them brought in. I will say after especially on late hours at night when

21 some of these state police would get talking to us and a lot of them were from the coal regions, 37 at least the ones we spoke to, were from the coal regions, they were born up there and entered the state police as citizens from the coal regions and we d give them the history of the Bethlehem Steel Company and how we were treated, and more than one or two sympathized with us but they said they still have to do their duty. Then we presented our side of the story to them, and I think as a result of it, some of them become less brutal towards us. Other times though, during that same strike, I saw a state policeman beat women over the back of the necks with their night sticks and I saw that after they had the men down on the ground, they would beat them with the night sticks and kick them. I saw that with my own eyes. Tutelian: These were the state police. Schaffer: State police would kick them and beat them, especially if they d get they up in a dark alley someplace because they would ask the men to disperse and the men wouldn t disperse. Then they d come charging in with their horses with their night sticks. That was something really terrible. I still can t understand why nobody was ever killed in the 1941 strike. 00:48:42 Tutelian: What did the people in the community think about this? Were they aware of it? Schaffer: I would say to ask me a question like that, most friends in Bethlehem, or most citizens in Bethlehem were my friends because I was well known. My father was city magistrate 38 in Bethlehem. He was a politician and an alderman 39, and he got to be city magistrate, so everybody knew him and through him everybody just about knew me. Most people I d say were more or less against what happened and the conditions in the Bethlehem Steel Company. Tutelian: They sympathized. Schaffer: They sympathized with us, yes, because many a time I would have friends and non-friends come up to me and say, `Mitch, I hope you fellows win, and even the businessmen, even though they were taking a licking while we were out on strike, I had many a businessman come up to me and say, `Mitch, I hope your union They would tell me, my union. It wasn t 37 Area of northeastern Pennsylvania known for the mining of anthracite coal. 38 Presides over minor legal offenses. 39 A member of a municipal council.

22 my union. It was the SWOC. They would come up and say, `I hope your union wins, because they realized that later on they d have more security. Tutelian: Were there any groups in the community that were really against you, do you remember? Schaffer: I d say I guess the Daughters of the American Revolution 40, groups like that, you know, people like that, that had the same ideas as them. And I know representatives of the Bethlehem Steel Company I was told contacted all the different churches and went around and spoke to ministers and priests trying to get them to get their congregations to put their sandwiches in their lunchboxes and go to work, because see, as I understand, in those days, a lot of the churches would receive benefits each year from the Bethlehem Steel Company. Then Bethlehem Steel Company always figured someday union will come here and while we re pretty grateful to the different churches and helped them out, we can come to them someday for help, which they did, the knowledge that I received from different members of the different churches. 00:51:16 Tutelian: Did that have any affect on the men who were out on strike, do you think? Schaffer: I imagine it had a small effect on some of them, but not enough to discourage us from winning. Tutelian: What about the men who wouldn t go out on strike? How did you feel about them? Schaffer: When we had that strike, the Bethlehem Steel Company had a lot of supervisors, I guess about all of the supervisors, stay in, and I understand my superintendent was observed running a washing machine to wash clothes and things like that because they expected a long strike, and the supervisors were asked to stay in, along with some of the men who were afraid to go out on strike. They used fear on them. They d stay in with the idea of the steel company would treat them well after that. Tutelian: Did they? Schaffer: No, they didn t. After the strike was over, that was all forgotten. That was all forgotten, but these men didn t realize that. 00:52:20 40 A women's service organization open to women who can prove that they are descended from a patriot of the American Revolution.

23 Tutelian: The Bethlehem Company claimed during that strike that they were able to keep going at regular capacity. Were they able to or was it just a (inaudible)? Schaffer: The steel company? Tutelian: Yes. Schaffer: That refers me back to one night we were talking to some of the state police at one of our picket gates and the state police were told that the Bethlehem Steel Company is able to produce a good amount of steel. We just pointed our fingers over to the big smokestacks and we asked the state police, `Do you see smoke coming out of those stacks? and they started laughing and they said, `That s how much steel they re producing. No. It didn t have any effect. No. Tutelian: They couldn t produce. Schaffer: They couldn t produce, no, not once the average steelworker, especially skilled steelworkers, were out. They could produce very, very little. Tutelian: What percentage went out, would you say? Schaffer: I d say we probably had somewhere around 85%. 00:53:28 Tutelian: You were involved with the negotiations to settle that strike. Schaffer: I was the chief negotiator representing the men in the Bethlehem Steel plant (inaudible). Tutelian: Could you tell me something about this? Schaffer: After we won on strike, I was voted in through a democratic process to represent the men in the Bethlehem plant here, and other men were voted from other steel plants and so we finally met in New York, and if I remember correctly, we met at 25 Broadway which I think at that time was the Bethlehem Steel main offices of the Bethlehem Steel plant. We had a long conference table and the representatives of the Steel sat on one side and we sat on the other side. During the final stages of the negotiations, why then Philip Murray finally come in. Every weekend I would be relieved. I d come home for the