No, they poured the samples in. I just carried the little chunks of steel over to the laboratory.

Transcription

1 This is an interview with Thordan Jacob Muschlitz for In the Age of Steel: Oral Histories from Bethlehem Pennsylvania. The interview was conducted by Kathy (Kane) Schlegel on March 11, 1975 in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. 00:00:02 The following is an interview with Thordan Muschlitz at his home, 1038 Crawford Street [Bethlehem, Pennsylvania] on Tuesday evening, March 11. The interviewer is Kathy Kane. Okay, Mr. Muschlitz, when did you working for Beth Steel [Bethlehem Steel]? ? Yes, ma am. And what did you do when you started? A test boy. What does a test boy do? Well, they carried tests from the open hearth 1 after they tapped the heat 2 over to the laboratory and there they took the analysis off the heat of the carbon soaked by whatever was in the steel. And you took a sample of whatever they were making at that time? No, they poured the samples in. I just carried the little chunks of steel over to the laboratory. Then what did you do? What were your other jobs while you were there? Well, that was all. I had to wait till next heat tapped, and then we had to go down to where they was pouring the heat because they poured them in little molds, and they knocked them out of these molds then and we took them up and we 1 A type of furnace used to make steel by which heat generated from heating pig iron is used to heat air supplied to the furnace, increasing the furnace's efficiency. 2 A batch of molten steel.

2 had to stamp the heat number on these tests and then take them over to the lab. Then they would take the analysis over there and brought them back to the or tell them what grade of steel it was. How far apart were these heats that you had to work with, time-wise? Oh, well, it all depended what time the heats tapped in the daytime or tapped on the shift that was worked. Well, naturally, you worked 12 hours at a time. Sometimes maybe you d have there was eleven furnaces on the floor and there was two test points, so maybe we had five, maybe we only had six. We what do you call it? Alternated? Alternate. One had five, the other had six one day, then the next day it was the other one had that. But that kept you pretty busy running back and forth? Well, yes and no. I would say it was a matter of time. You didn t have to rush, run back and forth. And how long did you do this job as a test boy? 00:02:26 Not too long, because there was an opening on the narrow gauge. 3 My Dad worked on the narrow gauge and there was an opening there, and so I switched over to the narrow gauge. I got a transfer from the open hearth to the narrow gauge railroad. Then, of course, I put the narrow gauge there til 1918 and I went on the standard gauge, and then I was on the standard gauge until the end of the war. The boys come home and then I was furloughed there, and I was without a job until In March 1920, I started down in the Saucon Division 4 on the narrow gauge again, and there I was until I retired. And the narrow gauge is the railroad? Yes. I put some pictures here for you if you want to see them. Okay. 3 A railroad with a track gauge (the distance between the insides of the rails) narrower than standard gauge. 4 Bethlehem Steel operations in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania that included furnaces, mills, and shipping yards.

3 Well, I ll explain them to you, because you won t know about it. Incidentally, this here, I was the engineer 5 on there. Which one is you? Up here. And these were my brakemen. 6 This is what we used to have to couple up the cars with, the link and two-pin (?), and you see them on this other engine here. Here s the mold where they used to pour the mold up the steel end, you know, and then take them to the skipper. 7 Then they would strip these things off there, put lugs on, take them off, and we d take them down to the rolling mill. Well, that s likewise. That s the same I don t know whether it s the same kind of a heat, but that was our job. Then, of course, they would reheat them down there and put them through the rolling mills. When were these pictures taken? Oh, gee whiz. That s a good question. I don t think there s any date on here. Well, I tell you what, these were diesel locomotives and I was running steam locomotive engine until , we got our first diesel electric engine 8 on the narrow gauge, and that was a General Electric. 9 And after, these were all Plymouth 10 engines. They re still running these here kind of engines, although they made them in two units. They couple them up and make two units out of one. But there s one engineer for only two units. So I was working on that until And that s when you retired? Yes, ma am. January 31st. Could you explain the difference between narrow gauge and standard gauge? Yes. Narrow gauge is only 30 inches wide. 5 Responsible for the operation of a train 6 Originally responsible for operating a train's brakes and couplings, the brakeman's responsibilities changed as newer technologies were introduced. 7 Project staff were unable to define this term. 8 Utilizes a diesel engine and an alternator to generate electricity to power the locomotive's drive wheels. 9 General Electric produced its first diesel-electric locomotive in Plymouth Locomotive Works was a manufacturer of small industrial locomotives.

4 Is that the track? Yes. And a standard gauge is You ll see the dimensions in here. Yes, this here. Right here, see? That s a narrow gauge in here, and see the standard gauge runs parallel to that. See how wide it is? Yeah. Are both still used today or do they just use the one? No, they re still using that today, although the plant is laid out there since they got this BO [basic oxygen furnace 12 ] down there. They used to have to stationary furnaces before. So this BO system was in effect when I left down there. Are you talking about the BOF? Yes. Okay. So you worked on the railroad almost your whole career there. Forty-nine years. What exactly was your job, just running the stuff back and forth? 00:06:56 Yes, from the mills, from the stripper. 13 They used to strip those (inaudible) off the heats and only take them down to the mills and they d take the steel off down in the mills with cranes, pick the heats up and put them in the sulfur pits 14, then they reheat them, and then they roll them out in beams. Sometimes we d take them up to Lehigh plant. 15 Incidentally, do you know anything about Pat Pazzetti? 16 I just know that he was quarterback on the football team. 11 Standard gauge is 56 ½ inches between the inside edges of the rails. 12 A pear-shaped furnace, lined with refractory bricks, which refines molten iron from the blast furnace and scrap into steel. 13 Project staff were unable to define this term. 14 Project staff were unable to define this term. 15 Bethlehem Steel operations that were located in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania including both furnaces and mills. 16 Vincent J. Pat Pazzetti, Jr. was an All-American quarterback for Lehigh University in 1912.

5 Yes. And incidentally, I used to bring him up from when he first started for the steel company. I don t know what year he started for the steel company, but he got started off as a ship clerk. He had analysis of heat and so forth and so on, and we used to take him from the Lehigh plant down to the Saucon plant 17 on our engines. But that s when he (inaudible), because he was superintendent down at (inaudible) No then. He just died recently, didn t he? No, I don t think he did. Pat Pazzetti? I don t think he died, did he? I think maybe. Gee, I really don t know now, to tell the truth about it. Yeah, because he used to come to all the Lehigh football games, and I think he just died recently. He used to go in and give the pep talk before the Lehigh-Lafayette 19 games all the time. Yes, yes, yes. Oh, that used to be my home over there too, the Lehigh. I used to see all the football not all of them, but when I had time. But I didn t see too many of Pat Pazzetti s game because, naturally, he was young and so was I at that time. In fact, I think I m older than what he is. But wrestling, I used to take up wrestling. I used to miss the wrestling. I was a big wrestling fan. Billy Reed 20 (sp?), who used to be a 118 class, and later on, he coached down at Princeton University. 21 Now, I don t know whether he s no longer down there. But I should say for the last 10 or 12 years now I haven t bothered with it. You haven t gone? No. Do you still follow it, though? 17 Bethlehem Steel operations that were located in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania including furnaces, mills, and shipping yards. 18 Project staff were unable to identify this location. 19 Lehigh University and Lafayette College have maintained the longest-running football rivalry in the United States, first meeting in Project staff were unable to identify this person. 21 A private research university located in Princeton, New Jersey.

6 00:09:31 No, I don t. Not at all? The last time I was over at the wrestling meet was when Sculley 22 was a heavyweight wrestling champion over there. Sculley? Oh, not Sculley. Danochek 23 (sp?)? No. He s, I believe, he s Assistant Super [Superintendent] on (inaudible). He was. Oh, isn t that funny now. He lives down in the Lower Saucon 24 area. Oh, gee whiz. I can t think of his name now. Well, anyhow, he was a heavyweight wrestler at that time. What else did you do with your free time besides going to wrestling matches and football games? Well, when the Bethlehem Steel had their soccer team 25, I used to never miss any of their soccer teams when I was available. They had one of the best in the country. Did you play or did you watch? No, I just watched. At first, they used to have the main team and then they had a reserve team. They had two teams, Bethlehem Steel. Who did they play? 22 Thomas B. Tom Sculley won the national wrestling title in the 134-pound class for Lehigh University in 1974 with a record of Project staff were unable to identify this person. 24 Lower Saucon Township is located in Northampton County, Pennsylvania. 25 Steel workers the Bethlehem Football Club, a recreational soccer team which played its first match on November 17, The team was converted to a professional team in 1914 and was renamed the Bethlehem Steel Football Club.

7 Oh, they played Paterson, New Jersey, and, oh, I don t know, they played all around. Were these other industries or semiprofessional teams? No, I don t think they were industries. I just think it was a team made up of different cities and states and stuff like that. And they did pretty well, the team? Well, Bethlehem, the big team, they used to always win. They were champions several times. But the people in Bethlehem, they wasn t too much interested in soccer. Because I know I was down at the new soccer field 26 on Elizabeth Avenue one Christmas day and they was playing Fall River [Massachusetts], which is up in New England states, and that s a great country for soccer up there. So a man spoke to me and he said, Gee, it s a shame, he said, but this team was good a team as you have here and the patronage are down. It was down about 250, maybe, and he said, This game would have drawn about 35,000 up there in New England. I think that s why they sort of degraded, you know, give it up, because there wasn t too many. Although I see it s on an upswing now again since high schools are taking it up, so I think eventually it ll come back again. What year was this that Bethlehem had soccer teams, around what year? Whoa. Gee whiz. That s a long time back. It s, oh, I should say around 1916, 17 [1917], around there. That s when they had the big team. Did Billy Sheridan 27 from Lehigh have anything? Yes. 26 Originally built by Bethlehem Steel to host its soccer club, it was first purchased by Lehigh University in 1925 and then sold to Moravian College in It is now known as Steel Field. 27 William Billy Sheridan, a charter member of the National Collegiate Hall of Fame, coached the Lehigh University wrestling team from He was also manager of athletics for Bethlehem Steel and coached the Bethlehem Steel F.C team to a national championship.

8 00:13:00 Did he coach the team? I don t know. Not that I know of. He possibly did, but he also had the wrestling team over there. Right. I knew he was interested in soccer, and I thought that he had some connection with Bethlehem Steel. But Jimmy Easton 28 and Duncan 29, I knew some other players. They also had a baseball team at one time. That time it was all the steel companies in the Bethlehem area, that is, when a corporation played each other. Each company had a team, and they used to always play baseball down there too. And that was pretty good too? Oh, yes. In fact, one of our first basemen, Fred Berger 30 (sp?), he was first baseman, and he s still going to our church. Sometimes we reminisce about the ball games. (laughs) Are you active in your church, or were you at one time? Well, I was Consistory 31, on the Consistory for four years, but now we re not attending because we re both handicapped a little bit. We have arthritis. We just don t get along well as what we did before. But were you active when you were younger? Oh, yes. We attended church regularly. We both went to the same church together and same school together. Childhood sweethearts, huh? Mrs. Neighbors. Neighbors, yeah. We were neighbors. Well, sometimes we d talk a little bit on the sugar side. (laughs) 28 James B. Easton played for Bethlehem Steel s professional soccer team and later became the team s manager. He was a safety supervisor for Bethlehem Steel and served as the president of the Bethlehem school board. 29 A professional soccer player who played goalkeeper for Bethlehem Steel Football Club from 1915 until he joined Fall River United in Project staff were unable to identify this person. 31 Project staff were unable to identify this term.

9 00:14:36 Yes, sometimes. (laughs) Which church do you go to, or did you go to? At the present time we re going to Trinity 32 on Center Street, Trinity UCC, although we originally had went to Designs (sp?) up at Shipman and Hillmond Streets [Bethlehem, Pennsylvania]. Well, the congregation was down pretty far, I think maybe 200 or less. So they consolidated with two other churches, Calvary and this Trinity. Trinity was really in debt at the time, so they consolidated and they sold our two churches. So some of the members went down there and some went other places. Did you belong to any fraternal organizations? Just the Eagles. 33 You didn t belong to the Masons 34 at all? No, I didn t. What about any other social groups at all? No, that s about it. MORA 35 Club now, I retired, Bethlehem MORA. You probably heard about that. They do quite a lot of work around the city for the Heart Association 36 and Muhlenberg Center 37 and things like that. A lot of men go out there and work there, things like that. More a volunteer-type organization? Help volunteer, the retired bowlers out here to TC Bowling Lanes [Town & Country Lanes, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania] for a full year. In fact, from the MORA Club, we originated that. There was four of us, and one deceased and one s in 32 Trinity United Church of Christ is located at North and Center Streets, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. 33 Founded in 1898, the Fraternal Order of Eagles is a fraternal organization in the United States and Canada dedicated to community service. 34 Freemasonry is a global men's fraternity dedicated to developing members' values based on teaching and to serving the community. 35 Men of Retirement Age is a social and service club in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. 36 The American Heart Association is a non-profit organization dedicated to reduce the incidence of disability and death from heart disease and stroke. 37 Lehigh Valley Hospital - Muhlenberg is a private hospital in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.

10 a home now, Tommy Falks 38 (sp?). So the fellow by the name of Meiser 39 (sp?), Walter Meiser and myself, we still are out there, but I m not longer taking care of retarded children. I see. So the four of you kind of started the MORA Club? No, no, Gee, the MORA Club, I don t recall what year it started, but they have a membership, oh, of 700. Oh, good. And that s the Bethlehem area? Yes. Down at the YMCA :16:43 What else did you do with your leisure time? Oh, well, I don t know. Went on picnics. I like to play cards. I like to play pinochle. That s good. That s a good game. Oh, I could play pinochle all night, don t bother me. I love to play pinochle. Of course, I m not too much of a gambler and playing poker or something like that, but I like to play poker, but small stakes. Just to pass the time, more sociable than I never got in big. Do you remember when you bought your first car? My first car my father-in-law had given me. That was a 1923 Ford. He give it to me in 1929, and it had a defect on it. In fact, the reverse gear was broken, although he had a new gear and I had to pay to put it in, and that s how I got my first car. And I bought the last Model T car that they made, too, in Then I had that till I bought a 1931 Ford. They were all second-hand cars. And I had that until 1941, and then I bought a new Pontiac. You switched to Pontiac Project staff were unable to identify this person. 39 Project staff were unable to identify this person. 40 Founded in London in 1844, the YMCA is a global organization based on Christian values open to all people regardless of faith, gender, social class, or age. 41 A brand of vehicle manufactured by General Motors that was discontinued in 2009.

11 I drove that for 17 years. The same car? Yes, ma am. Did you buy it new? I did. And you drove it for 17 years. At that time, I bought for $1,165. Whew. That was an expensive car then, wasn t it? Eight-cylinder car. The only thing, she was a little heavy on gas. I used to only get around 11, 12 miles on the gallon on city driving, and 16, maybe sixteen or eighteen on a trip. I have a car now that s an Oldsmobile. 42 I m getting nine miles to the gallon. That s terrible. You were getting a good deal then. (laughs) Well, just a friend of mine was here to work with me, and I forget what kind of a car he had, a Chrysler Mrs. Imperial. 43 Yes, Chrysler Imperial, and he only gets about eight or nine miles on the gallon. (laughs) It kills you with prices the way they are now, yeah. 42 A brand of vehicle manufactured by General Motors that was discontinued in The Chrysler Imperial was the top-of-the-line Chrysler and was produced from and again from It was also produced as a separate brand from

12 00:18:53 My neighbor down here, he has a Pontiac, too, and believe it or not, he has a Honda motorcycle and they went to Ocean City [probably New Jersey], both him and his wife on a motorcycle, and he said he went down and back on four gallons of gas. (laughs) Oh, that makes me ill. (laughs) Do you remember when you bought your first house, or when did you buy? This house? Yes, right. This house in 1950? You rented until that time? Yes, ma am. Did you live in Bethlehem more at that time? All the time. Where did you live? Well, we lived Ms (inaudible) Well, during your working years at Bethlehem. Well, we lived on East (inaudible) for a while. Then we lived down at Goepp and Wood Street till around we lived down there when the Depression started. Then we moved over on Fairview Street, and then from Fairview we moved on Pembroke Road. Then we lived there 16 years, and then we had an option to buy on a place in 37 [1937].

13 I have some pay stubs that you d be interested in seeing, just in how the pay stubs were at that time as compared to today. Well, I had an option of buying half of what the house we were living in for 2,500, which was a reasonable price at that time, but we didn t have the money. At that time, sometimes I only got $37 in two weeks. Two weeks? Two weeks. Two weeks pay. So, well, we just didn t have the money. My neighbor, he was over in supervision down at the steel foundry, yes steel foundry, and, naturally, he was making the dough, the old supervision. So he bought the two places for $4000, and in 1949, he asked me whether I want to buy the place. I said, How much are you asking for it? He said, Well, you know, the prices of the real estate went up. I m asking $7,000, but I ll sell to you for 65. I says, No, thank you. I won t buy it. Because there was no improvement made to the house, and it needed a lot of improvement. In fact, we bought an eight-cubic-foot General Electric refrigerator, and put it in the kitchen, and the man, when they delivered it, he said, You better put some steadying on the bottom here or you re going to find this refrigerator in your cellar. (laughs) It was in that good shape, huh? We put a four-by-four uprising in the cellar to hold it up. So, well, that s the way it is. So we re living happily ever since It was in April. Wait a minute. Yes, April wasn t it, when we moved out here? Ms When we moved here? Yes. Ms My voice ain t going on there, is it? April. (laughs) You can talk. It s okay. Yes, April.

14 Ms April, yes. Either the 14th or the 17th. I don t just know. One of those two. Did you build this house? No, it s a contractor s house. Were there a lot of other houses in the neighborhood at that time? No, it was just a development center around here. And, of course, this was finished. Across the street there s a couple of brick homes. They were here before that. In fact, I used hunt small game around here. Oh, really? Yeah. I guess you couldn t do that anymore. No. No, indeed. Although we have rabbits around here. You do? Oh, sure. Ms This street wasn t opened up. It was more like a lane. Yeah, that s true. And Stefko Boulevard, at that time it wasn t Stefko Boulevard, it was Ms Easton, Newton Avenue. Newton Avenue, and the trolley car used to run that way down to Easton. Did you drive to work or did you walk? Sometimes I walked and sometimes I used to ride with a fellow.

15 00:22:45 00:24:30 But in nice weather you d walk or something like that? Sometimes. If this man would be working on the same shift, then I used to ride him. I used to pay him the carfare and, of course, that s the way I got to work then. Let s talk about the early years. When you first started working, it was twelve hours and seven days a week? Yes, ma am. Yes, ma am. Every two weeks, twenty-four hours. On a Sunday? Well, starting Sunday morning and finish up Monday morning. I heard that, and I just can t believe that they would do that. And you know my wages when I first started for the steel company, I got 84 cents for working 12 hours. Oh, my God. Eighty-four cents. And when I started on the narrow gauge in 1915, I got a $1.40 for 12 hours. Then we got a raise, we got $2.60. That s quite a raise. Oh, it sure was. That was big money at that time. (laughs) But, well, I liked my work. I still dream about it. You often heard about these different programs they have on television about getting a clunk. 44 Well, I dream about these clunks from work. (laughs) But I always liked my job. In fact, one of my brakemen says to me one time, he says, The steel mill taking off the buggy 45 you took down. So I blew the horn to take the empties up and load them up again. He says to me, he says, Muschy, you must be a company man. I says, Yes, I am a company man. The company s paying me to work here. I m a company man. I says, What makes you think so, why I m not a company 44 Project staff were unable to identify this term. 45 Usually electric, these were carts used for transporting materials.

16 man? Well, he says, the other guys, they don t go right aways. But when your buggies are empty, you blow the whistle right away. Well, I says, when we go down there, you go in the welfare room 46 and sleep and I have to stay awake till they take the steel off. Then you get mad when I blow the whistle. 00:26:44 Was there a lot of that going on? Was there a lot of people sloughing off on their job and kind of taking their good old time about things? Well (laughter) I ve heard that from other people. Yes, well, then I wouldn t be the first to repeat it. Everybody was scheissing off 47 as much as they could. That s a shame. This one guy told me a story about one guy threatened him with a knife because he made him work. The guy that this guy was in charge of was used to sleeping all day, and his foreman or whatever expected him to do some work, and he threatened him with a knife just because he made him work for half an hour or something. Well, I personally was on the yardmaster 48 was southbound there one time, and it s a big obligation you take on when you take those jobs, for the simple reason that supervision expects you to do the job. That s what you re there for, to do the job and to see that the job gets done. When you have orders to have the job done and they don t do it, that s when you ain t going to stand and watch while they re going to do it. You tell them what to do and expect them to do it. But when they don t do it and they call you out of bed, the superintendent which is going to on the tape, and it was McNeal 49 (sp?) was the superintendent Yeh, I ve heard that name before. he called me and wanted to know why at that time the war was going on, and the forty (sp?) Number 1 mill. 50 The other side was scrap, shipped every hour and a half. The ship came in at quarter to six, and I told this crew to go down and ship the scrap. I said, Ship the scrap. I says, Don t weigh it up. Just keep a hold of it, because everybody 46 An antiquated term for a locker room in which workers placed their personal items in baskets at the beginning of their shift. 47 Slang for goofing off. 48 Person in charge of a rail yard. 49 Project staff were unable to identify this person. 50 Project staff were unable to identify this person.

17 sneaks away at six o clock; they quit at seven. So what do they do? I didn t watch it, but what did they do? They went, they got the empties, but they never shifted the scrap. So McNeal called me up around ten o clock in the morning. My wife answered the phone. She said, It s Bethlehem Steel. So he says, McNeal speaking. I says, Yes, Mac? He says, Muschy, he says well, used some profanity. He says, Why wasn t that mill shifted? 51 Why wasn t that scrap shipped? I says, I left orders I would shift it. He says, I don t give a, well, another word of profanity, and he says, It s your job to see that it gets shifted. I says, You want me to walk after the men to see that? He says, I don t give a how you do it. It s your job to see it gets done. Well, I told my wife, I says, This is no job for me. And that time they wasn t on salary at that time. They re on salary now. And I got two cents an hour more for being a yardmaster and I used to walk blisters on my feet about the size like a half a dollar. And I did walk them, believe me. So I told my wife, I m going in to supervision and I m going to just tell them I don t want no ulcers, that I ll get back on my engine and I ll take the orders. And that s what you did? I did. How long were you a yardmaster? Oh, I would say probably less than a year. And is a yardmaster comparable to a foreman or something? Yes. The yardmaster would get the orders what to have done, and then it was up to me to see that it was done down there. In fact, one time down the 12- and 18-inch row 52, they had to clean up the billets, and I told them, because it was on a Sunday morning and the mill wasn t rolling that day, but they had all these billets 53 laying on the ground, and so 51 Project staff were unable to identify this term. 52 Project staff were unable to identify this term. 53 A solid semi-finished round or square product that has been hot worked by forging, rolling or extrusion.

18 they had to be loaded on the buggies, take down to the 18-inch mill 54, took them off. So I said, Now, when it s cleaned up down there, come back up, because you re needed up here. Well, they wasn t up yet at eleven-thirty, so, naturally, I had to walk all the way down to the twenty Number 1 billet yard 55 there, and lo and behold, there they were outside. It was the summertime there. They was out sleeping. The engineer was sleeping in the cab. I asked, I says, Where s the brakeman? He says, Laying over there. (laughs) 00:31:22 I went over there. I woke him. I said, Didn t I tell you to come up when you was (inaudible)? No, they didn t (inaudible). They just got on the engine and they (inaudible). The principle of the thing was, you know, you had to walk after them. You had to walk after everybody. So, well, for 2 cents an hour more, the engineers got good pay. But then we went on that strike, you know. Which year was this? Which strike? That was 19 Ms Forty-one, wasn t it? No, no. That was since we re living here. Ms Oh, yeah, yeah. That s right. Was , I believe. 1959, was it? Ms No, it was later than that I don t believe it was. Did the whole plant go out or just the one? 54 A mill consisting of two 3-high rolling stands driven by an 1800 HP electric motor producing channels, I beams and angle sections in the Saucon Division. 55 Project staff were unable to identify this location

19 00:33:19 Yes, the whole plant went out. Well, we was out for 150 days 56, I believe. So that s when my wife went on Social Security. 57 (laughs) She kept the family going. So I didn t have any work. My neighbor, when we moved here, he had an old Chevy car over there, and then his wife went to work. While we was on strike, he said to me, he said, You know, Muschy, we ought to have this strike every year. And I says, Wait a minute, John. When I moved here, you had an old kettle setting over there in the yard, old dilapidated thing. I says, And you didn t have a new car or garages until your wife went to work. Now, if you feel you can afford 150 days a every year, you take off 150, but don t wish it on me, because I can t afford it. So, well, that s the way that things were. That s the way I felt about it, if he had the security and everything to take that trip. Well, he went up to Canada fishing, and so that all took money. Well, I never had that kind of money. Then when we moved here, well, we had a $7,000 mortgage, and believe me, boy, only for my good wife here, she saved her pennies. Did you work? Ms Well, yes, I worked, but I didn t earn a whole lot, but it still helped. What did you do? Ms I worked at the fraternity house helping the cook. Up at Lehigh? 58 Ms Yes, for Lehigh. But they were at Ostrum Street and Delaware Avenue. The home is torn down and the parking lot is there. It was the Theta Chi 59, yes, Theta Chi. How many years did you work up there? Ms Oh, not many years I didn t work. But I didn t earn a whole I only got $80 a month. A month? 56 In 1959 steelworkers throughout the United States were on strike for 116 days. 57 A system of old-age benefits for workers, benefits for victims of industrial accidents, unemployment insurance, aid for dependent mothers and children, the blind, and the physically handicapped 58 Lehigh University is a private university located in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. 59 An international college fraternity founded in 1856.

20 Ms A month, yes. I can t imagine that today. I mean, you know, $80 a month you would be 00:34:17 Ms Eighty dollars a month, and when we went to work, I worked for a penny a reel in the silk mill, and up to Saturday mornings I only got 12 cents, but it was 12 cents. At that time, that 12 cents counted too. Well, the highest they paid at that time was 9 cents an hour. And what were you doing? Ms Well, first I was at lacing, lacing reels, which you wouldn t understand. Skeins, they re skeins like wool is in a skein. It used to be. Then we had a lace streamed in, you know. From there I went on what they called 5B doubling and that s what I did then for 9 cents an hour. At first, I got 4 cents an hour, and then I asked for a raise, and, of course, I got 9 cents an hour, which was the highest they paid at that time, and we worked ten and a half hours a day. When was this? Ms Well, I started in the silk mill in And then did you quit when you got married or did you work continually? Ms No, I worked when I was married. (laughs) 00:35:56 Well, she worked doing (inaudible) too. She worked down in the silk mill too. I was never laid off at the Steel, but I used to only get sometimes two and three days in two weeks in a pay. Because we used to get our coke 60 from the steel company, too, which I liked very much for heating. I went in the office. I had a pay deduction coming off at Christmas pay, so I was in the office to cancel that deduction on account of Christmas pay. For some unknown reason, well, they never took it off. Well, I got my Christmas paycheck, it was $2.45 for Christmas. (laughter) Merry Christmas. 60 Used to smelt iron ore in the initial stage of producing steel, coke does not produce smoke and was useful for domestic heating.

21 Ms Merry Christmas was right. They gave you the coke to heat your home? No, no, no. You had to buy it. But did they deliver it? They delivered it, but then they took it in as many payroll deductions as you wanted to have them. We generally has about $5 of pay taken off until the coke was paid. Was it expensive compared to what you would buy elsewhere? No, I think it was cheaper. If you got, say, over three ton, over three ton of coke there, you possibly got for about $17 or something like that. 00:37:12 Ms And when they worked 24 hours, we used to the women used to carry hot meals to them at the Steel. Really? Ms Yes, we did. We stood outside the gate until 12 o clock when the whistle blew. It was quite different at the Steel that time. And hand the basket in to them with their hot meals in. What was the purpose of having you work 24 hours? Well, I guess what the profit was? I don t know. I don t know why they would do it. Well, that s the way they worked it at the time. I couldn t give no explanation on why they did it. Many a time I know I walked from Elizabeth Avenue. I was working up at Lehigh plant 61 at that time, and if it was icy and things like that, 61 Bethlehem Steel operations that were located in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania including both furnaces and mills.

22 the streetcars weren t running that time. Why, I used to have to walk from Elizabeth Avenue all the way down to Lehigh plant, down the main gate, where the main gate is today. That s where you had to used to go in there. 00:38:50 It s a good walk. Oh, sure. It just seems to me that they would lose on it because it seems to me the men would get tired and they wouldn t be very productive. Oh, regardless, if your job was there, you had to do it, you went and done it. At that time, naturally this is all going on tape? Yes. Well, you keep some of it out. I guess you ll cut out what you don t want. Well, I don t think any of it s going to be bad. Well, no, I don t think we said anything bad about but I ll tell you what. The steel plant was a whole lot different before the union come in there, because we had a yardmaster, he was a railroad man. I liked him very much, James Duff. 62 What he told you, he told you to do and he expect you to do it, and if you didn t do it, he disciplined you. How would he discipline you? Well, he d give you a couple days off or something. For instance, I ll give you an example what happened to one particular fellow by the name of Eisenhower. No, it wasn t Eisenhower. It was Aloysius, Aloysius. 63 (laughs) Well, anyhow, he went down there in the morning. He was a working day turn 64 and he went down to forty Number It 62 Project staff were unable to identify this person. 63 Project staff were unable to identify this person. 64 Project staff were unable to identify this term. 65 Project staff were unable to identify this location.

23 was in the summertime and he caught him sleeping, so he woke him up and he told him to cut the heat off and do another job. See, that s what they used to do. They used to take the heats away, but they wouldn t cut off and go back to where they started from. They d either wait till he come around, told you to cut off or do this or do that, unless the buggies were empty. Well, anyhow, he woke him up, and so lo and behold, he went down there around 11 o clock. I guess it was after eleven o clock in the morning, and by that time the sun was up nice and bright and was warm, and here he caught him sleeping again. And he says, This is the second time I caught you sleeping. You must be pretty sleepy. He says, Tell you what you do. You go home and go to bed and sleep, and when you re done sleeping, you call me up and tell me you re ready for work, but don t call me up for two weeks. That s what he said. Don t call me up for two weeks. And understand, he wasn t liked, because he was pretty stern, but he was a railroad man. I liked him. I liked him. He was a railroad man. But when the union come in that turned things all upside down, I ll tell you that. He couldn t hold his job. He got ulcers. He got ulcers and he was off sick several times. He was off for a lengthy time. Then Pazzetti was the superintendent on (inaudible) Number 2 at that time, and they were pretty good friends. It was through Pazzetti that he got back. He put him back on the engine, which was illegal. By right we could have forced him off of there. Being the union, he had no business running that engine. Because he was He was supervision, yes, and he had no business running that engine. But, well, the fellows all agreed they wouldn t do nothing about it, so they left him run down. Incidentally, he was laying in the engine and sleeping. (laughs) This guy that used to yell at everybody else? Yes. They had time out for lunch. Well, the engineer didn t have nothing to do, I guess, and it was summertime, and he was lying in the engine, sleeping. And I walked in there and I says, Oh, oh. Look a-here, look a-here. I says, I know a man got two weeks off for sleeping. He didn t say nothing to me and I didn t say nothing and I got off the engine. (laughs)

24 00:43:13 But, well, I was his pallbearer. He lived to be 94 years old. Oh, he was off sickly for quite a length of time. But he was 94 years old, and my brother and I, we were pallbearers for him. How did things change when the union came in? Oh, drastically. (laughs) Everything. If something wasn t right or some guy didn t like this, they d turn in a grievance 66 and things like that. They had shop stewards 67, and if you was told to do something and you didn t like it or you make a big issue out of it, you tell the shop steward, the shop steward would tell it into the grievance committee and maybe they would discipline some way or another, you know, get his money back or whatever it was, however it happened. Did you think it was better or worse after the union came in? Well, now let s say money-wise, it was better. How about conditions-wise? Oh, not too much difference. No? No. Did you find that the men got away with more? Oh, it all depends who they were. Meaning if they were union or non-union? Yeah. Well, they were practically all union men. 66 A formal complaint filed by a worker citing a violation of the collective bargaining agreement, state or federal law, or past practices of the company. 67 An employee that acts as an agent of the union in the workplace.

25 Which union was this? CIO. Well, it was AFL-CIO. 68 But this wasn t Steel Workers 69 or anything like that, the Steelworkers Union? Yes, it s what they called the Steelworkers Union. The AFL-CIO is the Steelworks Union. I was wondering if the track people, you know, the railroad people were in a different union or not. No, no. No. What you call it, the office force at that time, what they call the white-collar time man, they didn t have no union. They still don t have no union. Although they re making provisions that they give them a little more now and they get a vacation with pay and stuff like that, although they still don t belong to the union. Do you remember when vacations started? Vacations? Oh, that s a good question. Or did you ever get one? (laughs) Yes, I did, but I had to work 25 years for one. I worked 25 years before I got a week s vacation. You mean in 1940 you finally got a week s vacation? Well, I don t know what year it was, but I got a week s vacation. (laughs) I forget what year it was, but anyhow, I got a week. But then after the union came in, why, they got a vacation, I believe one week s vacation after working two years. You work three years, you get two weeks. And now I believe (recording paused) Then it was not too long before they said, Let s strike, and well, I didn t join up at that time. But then when they went out this well, then say most of them joined but a couple of us, and they used to more or less dig (?) you, you 68 The American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial Organizations (AFL-CIO) is a voluntary federation of 56 national and international labor unions. 69 The United Steelworkers is affiliated with the AFL-CIO.

26 know. They would cave in and they was (inaudible) getting the same money they were and everything like that. So, well, to keep peace in the family, we joined up. 00:47:44 Did you ever see that what they had done was right, or did you ever agree with the union? In time, did you come to agree? Well, you have to agree with them. Whether they re right or wrong, you have to agree with them. Why is that? Well, they re the law. Whether you believe they re the law or not? That s true. You got to play ball with them. You can t contradict them, because, boy, you ll have the whole steel company on you. You know what I mean. You couldn t ask for the floor and discredit the union. My goodness gracious, that would be like committing suicide. (laughs) Really? It would be that bad? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Would it affect your job if you disagreed with what they were doing? Oh, I imagine so. Sure. That s not so good. (laughs) So if you want to work and you want to get paid, well, you had to do what they said. One person I talked to was complaining that the pension isn t that good and that it hasn t been increased at all, whereas wages have been increased.

27 00:50:01 Oh, immensely. They tell me that they re getting over 500, these fellows that go out on the pension now, lately, they re getting over $500. I m only getting $214 a month. So that s a small comparison with the price of things. Once you re on pension, you don t get a price of food raise or anything like that. You got to pay as much as the other guy. Your pension never gets upped once you get it? No. Because this guy was kind of down on the union because once the people retired, the union didn t bother with them anymore and try to look after them a little bit. That s right. Well, the steel company, too, says that they re no longer working for the steel company, they don t have to pay them. But in the meanwhile, they put this pension money in the fund and they was putting this money out and making money on it, so I don t know who was at fault. But naturally, like I say, the fellows going out now, for instance, the same job I was doing, another fellow I spoke to, he s getting over $500 a month doing the same kind of work I was doing. And he just retired recently? Well, he s about two years now, I guess. How do they figure out what the pension rate is? Is it a certain amount for every year that you work there or something? Yes. I think after 30 years. After 30 years, that s where regardless of how long I worked for them, they only give you credit for 30 years. So that s they way they paid it out. Well, I had my 30 years plus, but that didn t make any difference. I only go so much anyhow, severance pay and all. Was there any Bethlehem Steel housing in Bethlehem? Were there houses that the steel company owned and rented out to the people that you can remember?

28 Yes, I believe there was. I think on Goepp Street, what was his name? Used to collect for the steel company. He was down at the Odd Fellows 70 building. (inaudible). Ms (inaudible) Oh, I can t think of his name now. See these homes down here, I don t know whether they were (inaudible), but this lower section here like Fernwood Street, Wood Street. Are you acquainted with them? Yeah. Well, those houses were all put up in World War I. World War I, we lived out here on Washington Avenue, and my Dad and I, we used to walk down to work, down through these fields here, and they had a big steam shovel 71 in here digging. Oh, they dumped the whole thing there on Wood Street, big trenches and they had dug the whole row of houses up and down (inaudible) over there on Fernwood Street, they did the same thing. Those were all steel company homes. Down on Crest Avenue, those were steel company homes. I could have bought a home down there. A friend of ours, they bought one. Yes, they only paid $1,300, I believe. Ms I thought it was 25. No, 13, I believe, 1,300. Eighteen hundred it was. Eighteen hundred. Ms Yes, 1,800. Eighteen hundred they paid for it. And that was an eight-room house, two-and-a-half-story home, double home, was a half of a double home. Eight rooms in it, all sealed, for $1,800. And when the sewage came in, in the city the steel company even paid to have their sewer put in down there at Crest Avenue. So, that s a pretty good deal, isn t it? Wonderful, wonderful. I could have bought one down there, too, but my wife never liked it down there. 70 Founded in 1819, the Independent Order of Odd Fellows is a fraternal organization dedicated to serving mankind. 71 An excavating machine powered by steam that was superseded by diesel-powered excavators in the 1930's.

29 Ms That was a horrible place. That gas smell. Yeah. Well, it never killed anybody. Ms That s true, it never killed nobody, but 00:52:44 People are still living down there, the same people. Even Slim s kid, he bought his Dad s home and he was born there. So he s having a marriage on his family, too. Didn t you say you seen the license in the paper? So he s been in there quite a long time too. Have you lived in Bethlehem all your life? Yes, ma am. You were born here? No. I was born in Ms I was. You were? You were born in Bethlehem? Were your parents from here also? Ms On Laurel Street. I was born in Bethlehem, I live in Bethlehem, I want to die in Bethlehem. (laughs) Really? Were your parents from here? Ms They lived here, sure. But were they born here also? Ms No. I don t know. No, no, my father was from Topton, around there. I don t know where my mother was from.

30 00:53:20 And where were you born? I was born down country, a place they call Passer near Richlandtown. Did you ever hear of Richlandtown? It s on the way down to Quakertown. It s a back wood. You go down to Flint Hill. You go over Flint Hill, you know? You d come down there. It s a place they call Passer. I was born there. My Daddy was working for a farmer, and the farmer had a home for the hired man, and, well, he lived in the other house. I was born on the eighth of July, and he had a daughter was born on the ninth of July. So when we started school, we was only a little (inaudible). We couldn t even talk English when we started school. What did you speak? Dutch, Pennsylvania Dutch. 72 (laughs) And the kids had a ball with us, you know. (laughs) But, well, then I guess we lived down there twice. It was my grandfather s farm that we lived on down there, and we lived down there twice. Well, the second time we moved away down there, well, I should say I was around seven years old, I guess. Well, I didn t see her no more until her sister passed away, was at her funeral. But as years went by, why, we more or less got sweet on each other, you know. But I didn t have no transportation down there or anything. I d walk from Hellertown, hunting. I was hunting, you know. I walked from Hellertown over as the crow flies, you know, down to her place. I wasn t too much interested in hunting. I was more or less interested in her. And they took me up real nice and everything and had supper there, washed up for supper there, and she would show up (inaudible) with a rabbit. Now I didn t even miss the rabbit. (laughter) But then a fellow come around. He had a nice horse and a buggy. At that time, horse and buggies were in style. He had nice horse and a buggy, and her father thought that was a man she should have, and, well, they got married. This was a funny coincidence that this came to me. A man from Quakertown, he was braking for me one time and we had talked about Quakertown. I asked him whether he knew some people down there in Quakertown that I knew them, too, and he knew them too. And he also knew this girl after she got married, and he says, She has a dog s life. I think they put her in some asylum and he just really drove her nuts, and then she passed away. Her sister told me this, her husband was that cheap that he didn t even buy her a tombstone. 72 Pennsylvania Dutch (or Pennsylvania German) is a dialect of High German spoken by some emigrants and the descendants of emigrants from southwestern Germany and Switzerland who settled in Pennsylvania in the 17th and 18th centuries.

31 00:56:34 That s a shame. But I got a good momma now, and I ve always been satisfied, real satisfied. Ms I hope so at this late date. (laughs) Too late to change your mind. (laughs) What year did you get married? Ms Twenty-three [1923]. That s nice. Did you have any children? Ms Yeah. I had four, but I only have two left. Two have passed away? Ms Two passed away. The two youngest passed away. Oh, that s a shame. And what are the two doing now, the other two? What are the other two children doing? Ms Oh, they re married. One is out in California and the other one lives in Catasauqua [Pennsylvania]. So that s one boy and one girl. And those are grandchildren over there. Oh, my heavens. Yes, I m supposed to give that little girl away there on the 25th of April. Ms Twenty-sixth. Twenty-sixth of April. Oh, really? She s getting married? Ms Yes, she s getting married.