George Engels: Right. Alexey Burov: That's fine. So let's go. George Engels: Okay, great. So, just before we begin again, just sorry, because I had to restart the recording. Are you okay with me recording this conversation? Alexey Burov: Yes. George Engels: Great. Alexey Burov: Yes that's fine. Please record it. George Engels: Okay, thank you. So Let's just get straight to it. And I wanted to ask you, what does Marxism mean to you? How do you... no, what does it mean to you? Alexey Burov: Well, [00:00:30] I think it is very important to understand the foundations of Marxist theory. And the reason why it was so attractive and why it was implemented in many countries. And what is the known results. So it should be a lesson to humanity. It should be understood, what really happened. [00:01:00] The roots of Marxism, the reasons for its attractiveness, and why the results were what they were. It's an important lesson for humanity, in short. George Engels: But that doesn't answer my question of what does it mean to you. Alexey Burov: For me it is interesting because I consider myself as a philosopher. And whatever is important to humanity about philosophical doctrines, is important [00:01:30] to me. George Engels: Okay. And why do you say it's an important lesson for humanity? What about it? Alexey Burov: It's an important lesson for humanity because Maxist parties came to power in big countries and still are in power in China, for instance, in Vietnam, in Cuba. And they changed life dramatically. So that's [00:02:00] why it is important to humanity. So they changed the path of history. In big countries. In Europe, in Asia, in Latin America. George Engels: Right. And... Alexey Burov: That's why it was important. George Engels: Yes, okay. And in terms of why is Marxism still relevant today, could you... Is Marx or Marxism still relevant today? And if so, why? Alexey Burov: In a sense, it is relevant [00:02:30] today. And I'm afraid it may be relevant sort of forever. Because the reason of its attractiveness, are still here. And also if you will make a research as I did, about attractiveness of Marxism for today, you may find for instance, about 20% of sociology professors in America in universities, claim himself as Marxist. [00:03:00] And in BBC, a poll happened about 10 years ago. It is a question for radio Page 1 of 6
listeners, whom you consider is the most important thinker of all times, all people. 28% claim Karl Marx. This is a BBC poll. 28%. David Hume was the second. [00:03:30] And his result was 2 and a half times smaller than Marx. And then that is why it is important. So he's still popular. His teaching is still popular. George Engels: What do you think particularly about his teachings is still appealing? Why do you think they're still relevant to so many people? Alexey Burov: Why it is attractive for so many people? I could give you a reference. [00:04:00] The simplest answer is to give a reference. In the book of Joseph Schumpeter, is it an Austrian-American economist of the last century. From his book Socialism, Capitalism, and Democracy. And the first chapter of the book is Marxian doctrine. And the first section of this chapter is Marx The Prophet. And he showed in there why the prophecy of Karl Marx was so [00:04:30] attractive. It is still attractive. And the basic reason for that, that he actually built a sort of mythology, which appeals to hearts and minds of many atheistic people. People who are rejecting God, they still need mythology. And Marx suggested very attractive mythology, where he gave the myth of ultimate judgement, myth of [00:05:00] Paradise, and myth of salvation. All these myths are suggested by Karl Marx. George Engels: All these what? Sorry, I couldn't hear that. Sorry, you said, "Mees?" Alexey Burov: Myths. Myths. Mythology. George Engels: Oh, myths, Sorry, yes. Alexey Burov: Myths, myths. George Engels: Yeah. Alexey Burov: He suggested very powerful atheistic, progressistic myths, appealing to minds and hearts [00:05:30] of people who do not accept any religious point of view. But they still need myths. They still need promises of the bright future, of salvation, of punishment of people, et cetera. He suggested all of these. So he suggested very powerful mythology. George Engels: And these myths he suggests are built on what? Is it sort of the historical or the purported historical kind of tough struggle between oppressors and the oppressed [00:06:00] kind of thing? Alexey Burov: Well, how he built it, it's a long story. George Engels: Mo, sorry, not how he built it. I'm just saying, is it the sort of... I'm just mindful of the time, just because I don't want to take too much of your time. So, in a sense you're saying that... What's the name of this author? Because I didn't understand. Sorry. I didn't get his name. Alexey Burov: Joseph [00:06:30] Schumpeter. S-C-H-U-M-P-E... Page 2 of 6
George Engels: Yeah, yeah. No, I'm sorry. I know who... Alexey Burov: Schumpeter. George Engels: Cool. Alexey Burov: It is... George Engels: And so... Sorry. Alexey Burov: Yes, go ahead. George Engels: Um... Alexey Burov: I just... Go ahead. George Engels: Sorry. So in terms of... You answered [00:07:00] the question, "Why is Marxism still relevant today?" And you said, "And I'm afraid maybe forever." Alexey Burov: Yes. George Engels: What do you think of Marxism? Alexey Burov: Ask the question again, please. George Engels: What's your take on Marxism? You said, "I'm afraid." That implies that you're not particularly fond of Marxism. Alexey Burov: Because it is very dangerous teaching. It is very dangerous doctrine. It is destructive, destructive [00:07:30] doctrine. There is a book, actually brochure of another famous economist of the last century, von Mises. Ludwig von Mises, also Austrian-American economist. And the brochure is titled Marxism Unmasked: From Delusion to Destruction. From Delusion to Destruction. And results of destruction are humongous. So most massive crimes which humanity did, [00:08:00] did in the name of Marxism, Marx teaching, Marx doctrine. Due to this idolatry, I consider this idolatry and sort of fanatical quasi-religion. And this quasi-religion led people to most massive crimes which ever happened. George Engels: But many on the left would say that that's simply because his ideas were... The crimes that were committed [00:08:30] in his name were not of his doing, but they were committed under his name. They took his name and then put it under a different banner, if you want. And furthermore, other critics would also point... I was reading a notepad by Yanis Varoufakis, who understandably isn't the most neutral person when it Page 3 of 6
comes to Marxism, but he was saying that to ascribe the crimes of the 20th century [00:09:00] of Stalin or of Pol Pot, or of Kim Il-Sung, to Marx is like ascribing some of the crimes committed against other peoples in the name of... by capitalist regimes, and no one points a finger at Adam Smith for that. What do you make of that? Alexey Burov: Actually, I don't think this is a relevant [00:09:30] objection. First, Marxian teaching, Marxian books started from manifest actually. They all, by their structure are written in a prophetic way. It's not scientific theory. Not political theory. It is prophecy. So let me quote Karl Jaspers for you. I think he expressed it very well. Yes, Karl Jaspers, famous German philosopher, [00:10:00] in a paper called Marx and Freud, 1950. "The style of Marx's writings is not that of the investigator. He does not quote examples or use facts which run counter to his own theory, but only those which clearly support or confirm that which he considers the ultimate truth for this prophetic style. The whole approach is one of vindication, not investigation. But it is a vindication [00:10:30] of something proclaimed as a perfect truth with a conviction not of the scientific, but of the believer." So it is actually... Marxian writings, they all have structure of prophetic teachings, of religious writings, not scientific and not even political. This is first. The second point is that Lenin, Mao, et cetera, they [00:11:00] all took this teaching as the leaders and express... Lenin was a fanatical believer in Marx. He did not use it for it his crime. He did as exactly should be done, according to Marxian doctrine. And he had quarrels with other Marxians who did not share his specific ideas about application of [00:11:30] Marxian doctrine in Russia at that time. But these quarrels also typical among believer in a prophet, which have different interpretation of this believer. And you may read also for instance, Kolakowski, it is one of the great scholars of Marxism who shows that whatever Lenin did from Marxist teaching... And Mao's saying it's perfectly fit, [00:12:00] the Marxian doctrine. Of course, some people do not share it, but it also typical among followers of the prophet. They normally disagree and quarrel between each other. George Engels: And so, what lessons can the 21st century learn from Marx's writings? Alexey Burov: The main lesson said, to understand that Marxian writings, they are not science, and not even political theory. It is a [00:12:30] fanatical, quasi-religious teaching. Quasi-religious doctrine. Idolatry. And to see that everywhere where Marxist party came to power, from Compuchia to Cuba, from China to Russia, everywhere, the results were disastrous. Of course, the level of disaster was different. In Compuchia, it was one level, in Honduras say, [00:13:00] or German Democratic Republic, the level of disaster was completely different than in Compuchia, but still disastrous. So all the results were extremely tragic, extremely bad, I would say. And mass crimes happened everywhere, at high level. And this should be taken into account, seriously. And efforts to understand must be done. First of all it should be realised that [00:13:30] it is a big problem. It should be taken into account and thought about. Marxism teachings should not be regarded as one of innocent sort of pure theory, which may be discussed one or another way. First of all it's Page 4 of 6
not theory. It is a religious teaching. And those who call themselves Marxists, they're fanatical religious groups. And they are considered religious groups. So, by their [00:14:00] fruit, we will know them. This should be applied to Marxists. By their fruits we will know them. Marxism should be known by its fruits. And those who buy fruit, buy fruit and eat fruit... George Engels: It seems you almost have an ontological aversion to what we're talking about in terms of how it's understood, because you mentioned that [00:14:30] his teachings are not scientific and shouldn't be treated as such. I'm not sufficiently well versed to know whether he ever claimed that his teachings were scientific. I know that other people have. But I'm not sure if he did. I know that some of his... Alexey Burov: [00:15:00] He did not. George Engels: He did not? Alexey Burov: He did not. And this is a part of the success of Marxism, because if... This is a part of the explanation, why it was so attractive, because people at that time and up to now, they are respectful and they are inclined to believe scientific theories. But they are very sceptical about religions. So it is just disguised idolatry. [00:15:30] Idolatry disguised as scientific teaching. Disguised. I think that he did it perfectly disguised. Maybe he himself didn't realise what he was doing. Of this I am not sure. But I think he believed that what he suggests is a scientific theory. I could accept this. But if so, then it means that he didn't understand what he actually did and what he actually [00:16:00] wrote. George Engels: But one of the things that I'm trying to understand, and one of the things that is basically the purpose of this story in a sense, is to try to gauge sort of the relevance of his ideas to this century, because although many on the left will claim that particularly his angles as Communist Manifesto seem to be quite prescient and describe some of the conditions which, even now days still [00:16:30] persist. Like gross inequality, capital held by a very small amount of people, the exploitation of the proletariat, et cetera. On the other hand, there is almost... On the other hand it seems as though his ideas are almost confined to academic circles. And so in real life, well not in real life, but in sort of every day life, [00:17:00] are they actually relevant now days? How do you judge that? Alexey Burov: First of all, they are still dangerous. Just because the problem which you mentioned, they do exist of course. And all the socialists, most socialist movements, because this problem is a real problem. [00:17:30] So labour conditions, problems of inequality, problems of unemployment, et cetera, all these problems are real and do exist. And socialist parties are [inaudible 00:17:47]of the society to these problems. They suggest some ideas and some methods, how to deal with these problems. And I'm saying nothing about [00:18:00] this. You may share socialist ideas, it's one story. But Marxism is very special. It's not actually political theory, as I am saying. It is religious teaching. Religious teaching which exploits socialist ideas. And it uses socialist ideas as a part of fanatical idolatry. But in fact it's not quite socialist [00:18:30] party. It's something different which disguises itself as socialism and as scientific teaching. It's not socialism neither scientific teaching. It is a religious group which exploits these ideas. Page 5 of 6
George Engels: And what do you think Marx... This is a deeply and profoundly a historical question, just so you know. But what would Marx have thought of the world in 2018, do you think? Europe, China, [00:19:00] Russia, his native Germany, all kind of turning towards one model of capitalism or another. Alexey Burov: I think of him maybe better than he was. He was very despotic and self-assured person. But let me think about him a bit better than maybe he deserved. So that is why, in this mood, I hope that he would be deeply ashamed. Deeply ashamed [00:19:30] about what he wrote. That I think would be his [inaudible 00:19:34]. This is my best thinking about him. He'd be ashamed. George Engels: Yeah. I think that's really all the questions I had for you, Alexey. Is there anything else you wanted to add? Alexey Burov: No, I think I expressed most important things which... Thank you for your questions and for your suggestions [00:20:00] to this interview. And if you will take this into account in your story, I would be thankful to you. But please send me before, whatever you wrote. George Engels: Yes. Absolutely. Will do. But again, thank you for your time. And on a totally unrelated note... Page 6 of 6