25.52-696 - XABA Why did you knock at the kitchen door? I thought that it would not be as safe in the shack as in the house. So why did you not wait for the door to be opened? Because this Hippo was coming on I thought to myself that I might waste my time. Did you wait at all after you had knocked at the door? No, I did not. Well, why bother to knock then? Well, when one is frightened you get a lot of thoughts. I had a lot of thoughts, I thought of knocking and waiting but then I (10) thought I would be wasting my time by waiting. Yesterday you said you knocked at the door as you ran past, you did not stop at all. Yes, that is so. Now the people that you saw in front of the Casspir, did they see you as you were standing there? Do you know? That was at the gate, when you were still at the gate. According to what I can think of they did not see me. So you had no reason to believe that they had seen you and that they were coming after you? Well, I have reason to believe that they did not see me. (20) And therefore no reason to believe that they -would come after you? What I thought was that they could follow me if they would see me at the kitchen door. Was the kitchen door visible from the street? Very clearly. And is that why you did not wait after you had knocked? Yes, that is so. And then you went into your room and locked the door? Yes. Prior to that these people had given no indication (30) that /..
25.56-697 - XABA that they were attacking anybody as they were moving along the street? I did not see any such indication then, but I did see this when I got out of the house again. This was for the second time. What did you see when you got out of the house the second time? I noticed that the people with the clothing I had seen before were further down, standing there and that there were other people with different kinds of clothing that is shooting and I also heard noises caused by doors. (10) Yes, we will come to that part of your evidence. I am now talking about the four men on foot and the Casspir. The last time you saw them you got no indication from them that they were about to attack houses? At that time I saw no indication. They were just moving along the middle of the road and all they did was to fire some shots into the air? I would not say one of them just fired a shot into the air. If a person is in possession of a firearm and he is licenced he is not supposed to just shoot in the air. A policeman in (20) possession of a gun is not supposed to just shoot in the air. Yes, I understand that but these people were not attacking houses. They were in fact moving past a lot of houses at that stage? Is this a question? I beg your pardon? Is this a question? Yes. I said they gave you no indication that they were going to attack anybody? I was very suspicious as a result of this shooting. You see this is not supposed to be done, just shooting in the air. (30) And /..
25.60-698 - XABA And when you were already inside your room with the door locked and sitting on your bed, was that the stage when you heard the Casspir going past your house in front, in the street in front of your house? Yes, I was already sitting on the bed. And then you heard the Hippo go past? I heard it go past. Before I continue with your version, can I just show you the photographs that you spoke about? Yes, it is. It is the photographs. (10) Is that the photograph that you were shown? The photograph that you were shown? Shown when you called in to come and correct something in your statement? Yes, that is so. Is that you standing in front of the gate there or in the gate? Yes. And can you see the policeman in the background? Yes, I do. Now tell us again the position where he stands, what is that supposed to represent? This is where I had said(20) I had seen the Hippo. At what stage? The first time or the last time? According to the distance as seen, as I see it here, this is where I first saw the Hippo. I am not talking about what you are seeing there, I am asking you - you were asked to indicate a position where the policeman had to go and stand. Was that the position where you had seen it the first time or the last time? The question put to me was: Did you see the Hippo and I said yes. The next question was: Where? I then asked this (30) policeman/..
25.66-699 - XABA policeman to stand there. I put the policeman to stand there. It had not been specified to me: was it the first time you saw it or was it the last time that you saw it. I thought you said this morning that you were only asked to show where the Hippo was when you saw it the last time? I had asked the policeman to stand at the fourth house but now what I see in this photograph here is a small image and this dissatisfies me. He appears to be very far. Yes, leave that aside for the moment. I am putting it to you that this morning you said you were only asked. (10) to show where the Hippo was when you saw it for the last time. Then I asked the policeman to go and stand where I had last seen it, yes. And are you now confirming that you were only asked to show where the Hippo was when you saw it for the last time? I was asked to show where I saw the Hippo. I concluded by myself that I would show it where I last saw it. And when you asked the policeman to go and stand at a certain place, you asked him to go and stand where you last saw it? I had thought I had said that I will indicate (20) to them where I last saw the Hippo and if I were to be asked later I would say that is where I last saw it. Yes. I could not personally even speak properly to these people because they handled me badly. They spoke to me in an unmannerly way. Yes, forget about that for the moment. What I am trying to establish and I think you have confirmed that now is that the position where you told the policeman to go and stand is the position where you last saw the Casspir. MR ROSSOUW: Mr Xaba. Mr Xaba, wait* The question is (30) clear /..
26.70-700 - XABA clear. The answer is yes or no. Yes. And that is the only position along that street that you were asked to indicate? Yes, that is And that is the only time that a photograph was taken whilst you were present, of a person standing in the street there? I would not be able to say that because I was taken by other people and put into the house. Yes, but I am talking about the stage when you were present, watching what they were going. Whilst you were waiting there they took only one photograph of a police- (10) man standing in the street? Yes, no other photo's were taken while I was present there. You also told us there was a photograph taken of you standing, as I understood you - if I am mistaken, please correct me - more or less opposite your shack at the back of the house and the picture was taken from the front gate? Yes. Can I show you this photograph and will you just say if that is a picture of your parents' home? Yes, this is where I was standing almost next to my shack. (20) MR SITHQLE; The question is, is that a picture of your pa- rents' home? Yes, it is. MR HATTINGH; And the person standing in the background there, is that you? That is me. And the position you are standing in there, is that more or less opposite your shack? Yes. Apart from those photographs do you recall whether they took any others? I do not remember. I do not remember any other photo's being taken. Do you remember the sequence in which these (30) photographs/..
25.77-701 - XABA photographs were taken? I want to think that the one where I was standing near the gate might be the one that was taken first. Yes. May those two photographs be handed in subject to proper proof, although he has already identified one of them sufficiently. MR ROSSOUW; Was that earlier on, the one that had been identified? I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman? MR ROSSOUW:. Earlier on, this morning, the one that had (10) been identified. MR HATTINGH; Earlier on he said that he was shown a photograph, the one he was shown the policeman appears to be standing further away from the gate than what he was at the time that the picture was taken. MR ROSSOUW: Can we give them the same.. MR PRETORIUS: EXHIBIT 26.1 and 2. 26 And do I understand, or let me rather ask you, the position of the policeman on that photograph no.l, I am not sure which is 1 and which is 2 now? (20) MR ROSSOUW: EXHIBIT 1 is the one where he is standing in * the roadway or in front of the house. MR ROSSOUW: Thank you. 2 is where he is standing opposite his shack. Let me put it to you that the photographer who took that photograph, no.l, will say that the position of the policeman as shown on the photograph is the place where you told him to go and stand. I did indicate to the policeman v/here he should go and stand. Yes, but (intervenes) But I do not really believe (30) that /..
26.02-702 - XABA that this is the place I had indicated. And he will confirm that he asked you to indicate the position of the Casspir when you saw it last or just before you turned back into your yard. No, I was not asked. Did I understand your last answer, I put it to you that the photographer will confirm that the position that he asked you to indicate was the position where you last saw the Casspir. Now you say no, I was not asked? No, this was not asked but what was said was: show us where you saw the.casspir. (10), Very well. Let us return to the stage when you heard the Casspir going past your house. Did you then immediately go out again? I did not immediately go out. Sorry? I did not immediately go out. How long did you wait? Perhaps two to three minutes. And why did you decide to go'out? The shots that I had been hearing were still audible, but further away. Then I thought of going out to see what was happening. And then did you immediately then go out of your front gate again? Yes, I did. (20) And I assume that you automatically looked in the direction in which you assumed the Casspir had disappeared? Yes, I first looked in that direction. Now the Casspir and the four men were gone at that stage? That is so. The group of people that you then saw there, what were they doing when you first observed them? Were they moving, were they standing in front of the house or what was the position? They were moving about as shots went off. Yes, but were they coming in your direction, moving (30) away/..
26.02-703 - XABA away from your or what exactly - please describe to us what you saw? They were just moving about there, not going in any particular direction but just moving about in that place. Milling around in the same place? Yes. Could you apart from the fact that they were moving about, could you see what else they were doing? I saw them carrying these guns that they had with barrels facing upwards and firing shots. Some of them were carrying kie- ries. (10) Carrying? Kieries. You have given us an estimate of the number in the group, have you not? You have given us..? An estimate of the number of the people in the group. Yes, I did. I think you said about 50. Am I right? Yes, that is so. And could you see all of them or could you just see those nearest to you? I could see the people nearest to m e. (20) And you said had guns, some had kieries. Could you see any other weapons? Yes, things such as panga's. Now it is still not clear to me, they were standing there, milling around with these firearms; did they fire shots, did they shout, did they seem to be going anywhere? Well, those that I could see, I saw moving about. I heard shots going off and I also heard noises like banging of doors. Did you not see anybody firing shots? I saw the firing of shots which were upwards. (30) Upwards/..
26.09-704 - XABA Upwards? You mean into the air? Yes. Could you see whether any of the people in that group entered any of the houses in the area, any of the premises in the area where they were? No, I could not see, not from where I was standing. ^ Was it too far? It was not too far but there were too many people. I could therefore not be able to see people moving into premises. You told us that that group of people were beyond Thaba Bosiu Street from your house? Yes, that is so. (10) I have a mark on my plan, I do not know whether that is because you have indicated the position. Would it have been in front of the second house from the intersection of Thaba Bosiu and Majola Street? Yes, that is so. The one on the south-eastern side of the corner, of the intersection, the second house from the south-eastern corner of the intersection, Mr Chairman. Now that house is the seventh house from your house, not taking into account the width of the street in between. Is that correct? The second house? (20) The second house is seven houses away from his house, leaving out the width of the street? Yes. That is quite some distance further away from you than the Hippo was when you saw it for the first and last time? It is more or less the same distance. Could you describe the firearms that you saw in possession of some of the men in that group? Yes, it was long firearms. Automatic rifles? Yes. And you gave us quite a detailed description of what (30) they/..
26.12-705 - XABA they were wearing? Yes. Could you observe all that from where you were standing? Yes. Did all of the men that you saw in that group wear red headbands? No, not all of them. Some of them had no headbands or different colour headbands? Some of them did not have headbands. And I think you said, correct me if I am mistaken, that the majority of them were wearing white overalls, is that correct? Yes, that is so. (10) Did you see any people wearing uniforms amongst them? I did not see uniforms. Did you see any whites amongst them? I did not see whites. Mr Chairman, I notice that it is after half past. THE COMMISSION ADJOURNS THE COMMISSION RESUMES NTIETSA MOSTER X A B A, s.u.o. (through interpreter) MR CHASKALSON; Mr Chairman, before my learned friend continues his cross-examination I wish to say something about the cross-examination which I believe is exhausting every-(20) body including the witness. This witness has been given evidence now for almost six hours I think, of which almost five hours has been consumed by my learned friend in his cross-examination of the witness. Now my learned friend is of course entitled and indeed has a duty to test the evidence of the witness, but there is a difference between testing evidence and ultimately bludgeoning a witness into a state of exhaustion and confusion, and the cross-exami- nation in my view is now reaching that stage. I believe that the witness may not have had anything to eat or (30) anything/..
anything of moment to eat during the day. I asked the interpreter to enquire from him. I believe that this is an inquiry and not an inquisition and that we have now reached the stage where my learned friend must be more directed in his cross-examination and try to finish it in a reasonable time and to not, as it were, drive this witness into confusion and exhaustion with continual niggling questioning which is what I suggest the procedure has been up to now and I ask you to intervene and protect the witness. MR RQSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chaskalson. Mr Hattingh, I (10) do not expect you to answer but I do want to tell you that there is an enormous amount of sympathy among the committee members with what Mr Chaskalson has said and I would request you kindly (intervenes) Mr Chairman, might I suggest, I can assure you - and I am also tired - m.ight I suggest then that we take the adjournment and that the witness comes back tomorrow and let me continue at that stage, because I have still got a.. (intervenes) MR RQSSOUW: No, I am not prepared to grant you an adjourifc20) ment. I am not prepared to do that, we have got only one day left. MR RQSSOUW: Thank you. And we must do as much as we possibly can. Justice Bhagwati is with us and it does not even seem as if we are going to finish this session and then we are going to have to postpone for a long time, so I think we must just carry on. Thank you, Mr Chairman. We were dealing with the stage where you saw the people in front of the (30) second/..
26.15-707 - XABA second house from the intersection nearest to your house. Now at that stage you say you heard Casspirs coming on? I saw Hippo's moving down Lekoa Street. Was it the noise of the engines that drew your attention? It was, yes. Could you see all three of them at the same time or did you see them go through the intersection one after the other? MR ROSSOUW; I doubt if he could them all at the same time because Lekoa Street is at right angles to the street (10) where he was standing. > intersection. Well, I do not really know the width of the MR ROSSOUW: Does it matter? Mr Chairman, we say there were not Casspirs at the time he says that he saw them and that is of the. utmost importance. MR ROSSOUW: Carry on. They were following one after the other. And you do not know where they were going (20) to? I do not know. At that stage shots were still being fired from the crowd in front of the house along your street? That is so. And you did not see those Casspirs again? Yes. You saw no other police vehicles during the rest of that night? I did not see others. You do not know whether this group went to that was in front of that house; whether they came past your house or whether they went in another direction? This group? (30)
26.18-708 - XABA Yes. I do not know what ultimately happened to that group. They were making a lot of noise, they were shouting were they? That is so. When you got into your room could you still hear them shouting? No, what I heard was the shots, gunshots. And for how long after you got back into your room did you continue to hear gunshots being fired? -- I do not understand you. Well you told us that you went back to your room and (10) you went and sat on your bed and you fell asleep whilst sitting on your bed. Yes. Can you tell us for how long after you went and sat on your bed you continued to hear shots being fired? I cannot say neither can I tell you after how long I feel asleep. But surely you should be able to give us some indication? This is of importance because that will tell us more or less what time the attack occurred and when more or less it stopped. Unless you are going to tell us that by the time you fell asleep you still heard gunshots? Do you (20) want to know when the attack took place? MR ROSSQUW; No. Mr Xaba, did you hear gunshots until you fell asleep or did they stop, you think, as far as you remember, before you fell asleep? There were still gunshots when I fell asleep. And when you got back into your room you were very much afraid? Yes, I was. It must have taken you some time to calm down and fall asleep? I again feel asleep quickly because when I woke up I had been in deep sleep. (30) When /..
26.20-709 - XABA When you went out of your room the first time you say you looked at the wall clock? That is so yes. Was it above your door or where was it? The wall clock is facing the door. And exactly what was the time when you looked at it? According to that watch it was 23:00. That clock was accurate not so, fairly accurate? I would not say so, I do not know. When you came back the first time you said you spent about two or three minutes in your room before you went (10) out again? Yes. Later on when the police called you in and told you that it could not have been 23:00 and that you should change your time, you were not prepared to do so, so you were satisfied that 23:00 was the correct time? I was satisfied yes, but then you see a statement is not something that can be changed. Yes, I accept that. Therefore on your version the shooting continued until some time after 23:00? I think so. (20) Bear with me for a moment, Mr Chairman. MR RQSSOUW: Did you ever look at that clock again after you looked at it at about 23:00. That is before you fell asleep that night? I did not look at it again. Was there any way in which you could check that that clock was correct? Did you have another watch for instance? No, I did not have another watch. Do you have a radio or TV? The radio or the TV are not in the shack where I live but in the house. Right, now did you arrange your life according to t h e (30) time/..
26.23-710 - XABA time on that clock? Did you go to work according to the time on that clock? What life now? Well, you had to start work in the mornings at a certain time. Did you look at that clock to see whether it was time for you to get up and go to work? I did not use that watch so much, I was using a wristwatch which was the one I knew I would after ascertaining its correctness. So did you wear a wristwatch at the time? No, I was not. Well what wristwatch are you talking about? I of- (10) ten have the trouble that the straps of my watches break and this watch had its strap broken. It happened to be broken at that time? Some days before that day. When you got it back did you ever compare the time on that watch with the time on the clock? MR ROSSOUW; I regret that I tried to shorten this the wrong way around. Carry on. No, I did not. MR HATTINGH; Now I want to put it to you that you could possibly have seen Casspirs travelling along Lekoa Street (20) that night going in a northerly direction. I do not know which would be the northerly direction. The direction along - if you travel along Lekoa Street in the direction of Noble Boulevard, Cape Gate. No, they were moving in the direction opposite to the direction of Cape Gate. MR ROSSOUW: They were moving in the direction of the office. He said so in his statement. MR HATTINGH; Yes, but the police will say at about 22;35 two Casspirs travelled along Lekoa Street in a northerly direction and at that stage the police will say there was (30) no /..
26.27-711 - XABA no more shooting, the whole massacre was over. At about 23:00? At about 22:35. Twenty five to eleven? Yes. Well, that is what they say. And I want to put to you that if you say you heard shooting at 23:00 and after 23:00 that you are wrong. As everybody knows, no guilty person will just admit guilt. Who are the guilty people that you are talking about? The police who would say what you say is their version, it is because' we say we saw their vehicles; they there- (10) fore must say this to dispute what we say we saw. But you know it is not only the police who sees that, some of the other people in the area also said so. They are talking about what they saw and I spoke about what I saw. Yes, but I want to suggest to you that you did not see what you are trying to tell us here. Do you say I did not see it? Yes, I am telling you that what you say you saw did not happen. What I say I saw is what I saw happening. You see, most of the witnesses that we have had so (20) far say that the attack commenced at round about 22:00. I did not say specifically it was 23:00. I said I saw the time on a wall clock. Whether it was correct or not, whether its batteries were still in a good condition or not I do not know. Have you had to replace the batteries after that? I do not pay so much attention to this watch because it is not the watch I use. Yes, precisely, and I want to put it to you that if you have had to have your wristwatch's strap replaced y o u (30) would/..
26.29-712 - XABA would have it done there and then, they would do it for you while you are waiting. Yes, my father repairs watches, he would repair it quickly. Quickly. I would have no problems with it. So it was not in for repairs for four days? No, it was repaired at my parents' home. The pin that got lost was replaced quickly. Quickly? Yes. So was it in for repairs for four days like you said a little while- ago? That was not said by me. (10) i Then you must have had your wristwatch available to you on the night in question? MR RQSSOUW: No, Mr Hattingh, he did not say that. His evidence was that on that evening he did not have it available. But he said that on the basis that the watch, was in for repairs, Mr Chairman. Now he says his watch was repaired quickly. MR ROSSOUW: That is a relative term as I understand it. Well, perhaps.. (20) MR ROSSOUW: Relative to what? Perhaps I should test that then. Mr Chairman this is of the utmost importance because the time of the incident is really of utmost importance and if you do not allow me to cross-examine on t h i s..(intervenes) MR RQSSOUW: MR RQSSOUW: No, you must cross-examine. Thank you. Carry on. MR CHASKALSON: I do not think he said "in" for repairs. I think that was my learned friend's word. I think he (30) said/..
26.31-713 - XABA said it had broken four days ago. That is ray recollection but it may not be accurate. It was something like that. Maybe I should clear it up. Did you have that your wristwatch available, did you have it on you or in your room on the night in question? My watch was in the house. That is after I had spoken to my father about it and told him that the strap had broken. How do you now reraeraber that on that particular night your watch's strap was broken? How do you tie the date to that occasion? You asked these questions of me. I said(10) I did not have another watch other than the one on the wall and your questions following this up led to me saying that the strap had broken. I want to put it to you that you have suddenly realised your predicament and now you are trying to say that maybe the clock on the wall was not correct. You were hammer- ing me about the time and I said if that is what the police say so it means that my watch was perhaps not correct. Yes, because (intervenes) It is because you have been hammering on this time. (20) And when the police specifically called you in on this very same issue and asked you, told you that your cannot be correct, why did you not concede and say to them: possibly the wall clock was not correct? I just did not believe the sincerety of a person who wanted to correct my statement which statement may lead to that person's guilt being discovered. Bear with me for a moment, Mr Chairman. MR SITHOLE: When you went to the police and they wanted you to change the times on your statement did they (30) specify/..
26.34-714 - XABA specify what times they wanted you to change? They spoke about the time that I had gone out of my shack. What time is that? What time did they want you to say? They wanted me to say about 21:00. And you had given them an earlier time than 21:00? MR SITHOLE: Later. A later time than 21:00. Yes, that is so. You see, the person who spoke to you on that occasion will say that he did point out' to you that your time cannot possibly be correct because 23:00 he was al- (10) ready in the area in Boipatong and bodies were already removed. Well, this person might have thought that because he had come into the township at that time and I say there was shooting round about that very time. This might mean that he was involved in that shooting. Can I ask (intervenes) Therefore he would want me to say it was at an earlier time. Can I ask you this. Apart from wanting you to change the time in your statement, was there anything else that he wanted you to change? He said I should correct the (20) version where mention of the police is made. MR SITHOLE: And what did he want you to put in the place of the police? -- He had asked me if I knew the camouflage clothing well and I said yes, I am a policeman; I do know it. He wanted to know how I could see the people that were behind the vehicle, because they were behind the vehicle. I said I could see them because they were a distance away behind the vehicle. He then got angry. But did he suggest to you that you should change that version? What he was very much perturbed (30) about/..
26.38-715 - XABA about according to what I think is the uniform. Answer my question, please. Did he want you to change that version? He wanted me to change that. And what did he want you to say instead? He wanted me to say that these people was giving chase after these people. And that there were no policeman on foot behind the Hippo? They did not want me to say that there were members of the police on the ground. He was saying there were no members of the police and he wanted to know: how could(10) you have seen the police? Yes, but did he want you to say that you only saw a Hippo with no policemen on the ground and that the Hippo was chasing the two men in white overalls? He wanted me not to say that they were on the ground and running on the ground and this was in response to a question that I had put to him. But he made that clear to you, he said so to you? I do not understand you. He said to you: I want you to change your statement (20) by not mentioning the fact that there were policemen on the ground? This is what I understood because he has taken me to task for having said that. Yes, what else did he want you to change? It is these two points. The time and the policemen on the ground? That is so, yes. And instead he wanted you to say that the Casspir was chasing the two men in the overalls? Yes, this is so. Why did you not mention these important aspects this (30) morning/..
26.40-716 - XABA morning when you were asked about that last paragraph in your typed statement? I was responding to the actual questions put to me. No, no.. I was not given a chance to be saying all these things. You were asked what the mistake was that he wanted you to correct in your statement. This morning? Yes, by Mr Chaskalson. I responded to his questions. Yes, you responded and you said yes, he wanted me to say it was not 23:00, it was about 21:00. Yes, that is (10) so. MR CHASKALSON: Mr Chairman, I think I should read the note that my learned friend has. It goes as follows: He says: I asked him why he wanted me to change the statement and would that mean he was present in the township. He did say he was there at 23:00 when the dead bodied were being collected. I said as far as I knew dead bodies were collected in the morning. of the police. He then said let us discuss the question He asked how I could see the police running behind the Hippo when the Hippo's lights were shining on (20) him. I said I was on the side, not in the street, and he then he said he was going to "donner" me, I was lying and he said he would rather hit me. To my knowledge once you make a statement you don't change it. He became angry and called the lieutenant so the question of the running was certainly raised this morning. Mr Chairman, what I am dealing with is not the question of the running, I am dealing with the witness' statement now that he was specifically asked to say that it appeared to him as though the Casspir was chasing the (30) two /..
26.42-717 - XABA two men in front of it. MR RQSSOUW: No, Mr Hattingh, as I understood it there were two things here: one was the time and one was this part of the statement that the policemen wanted him to change. Yes, but he did not mention the fact that he now said that the police asked him to say that it appeared to him that the Casspir was changing the two people in front of it. That he did not say this morning when he was asked what the mistakes were. MR RQSSOUW: Well, it was raised. Carry on. " (10) Why did you not mention that important fact this morning that the police wanted you, instead of saying that the police were also on the ground. They wanted you to change your statement to give the impression that the police were chasing these people instead of assisting them. Well, you see, I am also human. I also do forget but I. would not always just be saying each and everything. You see, the time that I mentioned it was as a result of then having said I must change the time. I want to put it to you that you have deliberately (20) distorted what happened between you and the policeman when he discussed your statement with you. I do not understand. Distorting it? Yes, he will say that he did ask you how could you see two people behind the Casspir if the Casspir is coming along at a distance of some 100 metres away and they are behind the Casspir. What would I have said in response to that? I am sorry, I do not understand? Are you asking me a question or what is it? I am putting to you a version and I am asking you f o r(30) your /..
26.46-718 - XABA your comments on that version. He will deny that he ever asked you or even implied to you, that you should amend your statement by not mentioning the two policemen on foot behind the Casspir. Who is denying this? The policeman who spoke to you about your statement. MR CHASKALSON: Perhaps my learned friend could identify the policeman by name for us? I am not sure of his name at this stage, I think it was a lieutenant.. MR ROSSOUW: Does the accused know - ag, the witness know(10) (intervenes) MR HATTINGH; MR ROSSOUW: May we should ask him...who the policeman is he spoke to? I do not know what his name is. Was he alone when he spoke to you about your statement? We were alone, the two of us. Yes. Just him and myself, we were alone. Do you know what his rank was? I just heard him being addressed as Captain. Was he a white policeman or a black one? He was (20) white. In what language did he speak to you? He spoke to me in Afrikaans. Do you understand Afrikaans? I do understand Afrikaans. I noticed that you made your entries in your pocket book in Afrikaans. That is so. Were you taken out for the taking of photographs before or after this conversation with this captain? This conversation was after the photographs had been taken. (30) After/..
26.49-719 - XABA After? After the photographs had been taken. Who took you for the photographs? There were four of them. He was one of them. Oh, he was one of them? Yes, there were four of them that were in civilian clothes and there were other policemen, just many policemen who had been in a Hippo which was stopped along the road. Yes. And the statement that he wanted you to change, when did you make that statement? I made the statement on 19 June. (10) And where did you make the statement? At the policestation, Powerville. And to whom did you make it? To another person who was also said to be a captain. In uniform or private clothes? He was in private clothes. And was there an interpreter? No, the person who was to interpret came only afterwards when the statement was being read to me. And once again on that occasion did you speak to the (20) policeman in Afrikaans as well? This policeman was black but are you talking about the one who wrote the statement? The statement was written by a black captain. Yes, but you spoke to him in Afrikaans? Yes, that is s o. You say that was made on 19 June? Yes. Did he in any way threaten you or try to suggest to you what you should say? No. And was that the only statement that you made to him? No, it was not the only one. (30) Did /..
26.52-720 - XABA Did he make another written statement? The other statement that was written down, was written down by some people who came to my home, lawyers. Right, I am not talking about that statement for the moment, I am asking you about police statements. Were any further police statements obtained from you in writing? Ja, there is no other, that was the only statement I made. But apart from giving a statement in writing, did other policemen come to you and ask you for your version of the events that night? Nobody came to ask me. (10) Now the other statement that you made to lawyers, when was that one made? It was made after the statement I made to the police. Don't you recall how long after that? I do not remember well. You see I was already confused because I have been taken on occasions to police stations and been asked about this statement. When you went to these lawyers, do you know how it came about that they knew that you had witnessed something? No, I do not know how the lawyers came to know that. (20) Did they come to your parents' house where you were living? Yes, that is where they came. And did they seem to know that you knew what happened that night? Did they tell you that they wanted you to tell what you saw that night? I do not understand. Do you say that they knew I had seen something or they had heard that I had seen something? Yes well, you know, almost out of the blue they arrive at your house and they want a statement from you? MR CHASKALSON; Mr Chairman, that is not right. The n a m e(30)
26. - 721 - XABA is mentioned in Major Davidson's statement which was filed on 1 July so my learned friend should not put it that way, once Major Davidson had mentioned the name. MR HATTINGH; Mr Chairman, we have not established that that statement that was given to the lawyers was obtained after 1 July. MR CHASKALSON: That we have not (intervenes) Well, he said he did not know and I am now telling you it was after 1 July. Well, my learned friend is not giving evidence, Mr Chairman.. I asked the witness..(intervenes) (10) MR ROSSOUW: MR ROSSOUW: Can we move on more quickly, Mr Hattingh? I beg your pardon? Can we move on more quickly, please? Alright. When they obtained your statement from you, did they speak to you in English or in Afrikaans? It was English but I had someone interpreting. And was it recorded and did you, was it read back to you? Yes. And were you satisfied that it was a correct version? I was satisfied that I had said everything. (20) Yes, and did you then sign that statement? Yes, I did. Do you know whether that statement had been handed over to the commission; was it available to Mr Pretorius, did he discuss it with yoti when he consulted with you? I would not say he had it because he asked me what happened. Yes. Now I would like to deal with the question as to why you left Boipatong and why you came back. You told us you left because you were afraid of being attacked by people from Sebokeng and Sharpeville, is that correct? That i s (30) right/..
26.59-722 - XABA right yes but I had actually already been confronted by (inaudible, interpreter not in microphone) Yes. How did it come about that you decided to return to Boipatong? A thought came to me that I could not just be living elsewhere other than my home and I have to go back home. Then I decided to go back and see if all was well. And did somebody then (intervenes) And when I came back there I found that as was well. And did somebody then come to your house and called -you to a meeting?. No. (10) Wh,o is this Squaddie that you referred to in the statement - Squaddie, it is spelled S-q-u-a-d-d-i-e. I know this person to be a driver for the lawyers that came to see me. Later on you attended a meeting of.the Vaal Civic, is that right? Yes. And was the question of policemen living in Boipatong then discussed at that meeting? Yes, that is so. Can I just come back to your statement. When you made your statement to the lawyers was Sello there as well? (20) No, he was not. Did you ever hear his version of what happened that night? We have not discussed this whole thing in full sitting down, but he did tell me what he saw and also how many the people were. Did he tell you how many of these vehicles he saw that night? No, he did not tell me. Did you tell him what you saw? We did not ask each other questions. I told him what I saw. Were you upset about the fact that you saw the poli c e(30) participating/..
26.62-723 - XABA participating or at least appearing to be assisting the attackers on the night in question? Yes, that is so. And did you tell Sello that you were upset about this? Yes, I did tell him and also that I do not like (simultaneously) You do not like it, yes. Did he tell you that he saw something similar and that he did not like it either? What I thought is that it would not be necessary for me to be asking him what he actually saw. He told me what he saw and I told him that I had seen the incident. (10) But was he also upset about police complicity in the attack that night? Yes, he did when we saw tracks of a Hippo at a gate that had been run down. What I am trying to get from you, you said the next day you went to Sello and you got all the colleagues of yours living i n Boipatong together. Yes, that is so. Why did you do that? I had heard what the people were saying when the people said the police kill people. And did you believe that? I could not actually believe but you see I could take decision as to what I should(20) believe or not. I was neutral, I could not come to any conclusion. Why did you then get together and move through the township the next day? What was the purpose of that exercise? It was for us to go and see what had happened where damage was and having seen this, even the tracks of the wheels we decided this thing must be reported. Reported to whom? This is what we then asked ourselves. Yes, and then? We asked ourselves who we are (30) going/..
26.68-724 - XABA going to report to. Some said well, there are colonels, there are brigadiers and then some said, no, we cannot go and report to those people. Did you eventually decide who to report it to? No, we did not take a decision. Why not? Well, you see, my thoughts were that I cannot go and report to the police, it is a police vehicle that has caused the damage and I do not think this would be pleasing to the police. When that damage was occasioned was there a trench (10) dug across the road. So far as I know the trenches had then not been dug. Any other forms of barricade? There have been some barricades at places. But near the tracks that you saw. No, there was nothing there. So in the end you did not report what you had seen to anybody? No, I did not report but what we did is we spoke to Sello's elder brother who is with the SADF. We asked him to help us in whatever manner we can get this reported(20) I want to put it to you' that on that night in question you probably woke up as a result of gunshots, that later after the shooting was over you saw police vehicles moving around attending to injured people and so on. The next day you heard the people talking about police killing people. I had wanted to go out and to stop the police and to talk to them about what was happening or perhaps find out what was happening but while the police were there, there was still this shooting. The police did not come to see to injured people. (30) And /..
26.72-725 - XABA And then I want to suggest to you further that because of the fact that policemen were not popular in the area and you feared for your own safety, you decided to go and tell the ANC people that you saw police participating. Can I repeat that? I want to put to you that you feared for your safety because you were a policeman and people were seen to be angry towards policeman and the reason why you are now saying that policemen were involved was in order to curry favour with the people who are trying to put the blame on the police. I have spoken about what I saw. I saw this(10) with my own eyes and I know about this. This is why I also said no guilty person would admit his guilt. Yes. questions. Mr Chairman, at this stage I have no further I understand that all the witness who have testified so far and therefore this one too, will be present at certain proceedings and it may become necessary for me to put further questions to him depending on the outcome of those proceedings. MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I indicate that as a result of the cross-examination various issues have now come to (20) the fore which affect my client and I would also have to ask certain questions. MR PRETQRIUS: May I be allowed firstly to state that I have received no statement from any party in this matter and I ask that I be allowed to ask two questions to this witness. MR RQSSOUW: MR PRETQRIUS: Yes. The clock that you gave evidence about, is it still in your shack? No, it is in the house now. Is it in the house. Thank you. THE COURT ADJOURNS UNTIL 14 AUGUST 1992 (30)
Collection Number: AK2672 Goldstone Commission BOIPATONG ENQUIRY Records 1990-1999 PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand Location:- Johannesburg 2012 LEGAL NOTICES: Copyright Notice: All materials on the Historical Papers website are protected by South African copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, or otherwise published in any format, without the prior written permission of the copyright owner. Disclaimer and Terms of Use: Provided that you maintain all copyright and other notices contained therein, you may download material (one machine readable copy and one print copy per page) for your personal and/or educational non-commercial use only. People using these records relating to the archives of Historical Papers, The Library, University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, are reminded that such records sometimes contain material which is uncorroborated, inaccurate, distorted or untrue. While these digital records are true facsimiles of the collection records and the information contained herein is obtained from sources believed to be accurate and reliable, Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand has not independently verified their content. Consequently, the University is not responsible for any errors or omissions and excludes any and all liability for any errors in or omissions from the information on the website or any related information on third party websites accessible from this website. This document is part of a private collection deposited with Historical Papers at The University of the Witwatersrand.