The Iow Review Volume 13 Issue 2 Spring Article 29 1982 An Interview with Ishmel Reed Peter Nzreth Ishmel Reed Follow this nd dditionl works t: http://ir.uiow.edu/iowreview Prt of the Cretive Writing Commons Recommended Cittion Nzreth, Peter nd Ishmel Reed. "An Interview with Ishmel Reed." The Iow Review 13.2 (1982): 117-131. Web. Avilble t: https://doi.org/10.17077/0021-065x.2915 This Contents is brought you for free nd open ccess by Iow Reserch Online. It hs been ccepted for inclusion in The Iow Review by n uthorized dministrr of Iow Reserch Online. For more informtion, plese contct lib-ir@uiow.edu.
An Interview with Ishmel Reed1 Peter Nzreth PN: When I introduced you the other dy, I sid you mde the bstrct concrete in your fiction. One exmple is the ritul of the Western cpitlist loving his property in Yellow Bck Rdio Broke-Down. You mke property concrete in the form of green horse, nd Drg Gibson goes out nd loves it. Now tht focuses one's imgintion. IR: Yeh, tret forces the sme wy you would tret chrcters. So tht forces become chrcters. Tht is n old trdition in Afro-Americn culture where bstrct forces re referred s though re rel or s if were. A good exmple is the blues. Some of the songs seem be personified tht wy. For instnce, song clled "Jilhouse Blues"?blues knocking t my door?tht kind ofthing. I think this notion is deeply rooted in the Afro-Americn view of the world. And I use it in my work. But I lso use the trppings of the Western novel in Yellow Bck Rdio. In Western, the mcho mle hero lwys prefers his horse women. PN: When tht prticulr scene ends, it's so bsurd tht the horse is embrrssed nd puts his hnd over his eye s in cron. strip IR: Yes. I think there is n influence of Cliforni culture in Wlt Disney. The erly Shoshonee were temic. And it is interesting tht some of Wlt Disney's chrcters re bsed on blcks. For exmple, Mickey Mouse is bsed upon blck style. Blcks were supposedly jittery, lwys moving. I hve pper on the influence of blcks on crons.2 And lso the use of blck music in crons, Fletcher Hender son nd like tht. Whenever think bout crons nd then listen Fletcher Henderson think: oh, this is cron music. But I think the cron is n ncient form nd I drw from cron ides consciously. In fct, I studied the hisry of crons nd comic books when I ws working on Pllberers nd Yellow Bck. Crons re not considered profound form?tht's becuse of snobbery?lthough there is split in cdemi now: some sy these re works of rt. PN: Some hve rgued tht Wlt Disney hs mde everything ntiseptic. You don't subscribe tht, it seems. IR: No, I don't, I don't t ll. I think Disney ws genius. I think intellectuls didn't prticulrly like Wlt Disney's politicl views?nor did I, but I think s n rtist he is undenibly genius. When I ws kid I used see ll his crons. 117 University of Iow is collborting with JSTOR digitize, preserve, nd extend ccess The Iow Review www.jsr.org
PN: Yeh, so did I, so did our genertion ll over the world. We grew up on these I notice things. your novels hve lines like, "So-nd-so wlked in looking like Humphrey Bogrt in Csblnc." I t thought first you were kidding but then I begn feel tht you were our tking whole mythic frme of reference from films. IR: Right. Gry Cooper's wkwrd Lincoln, or Richrd Widmrk or somebody like tht with mnicl grin in The Kiss of Deth. I look t films nd I feel these chrcteriztions re we cn types relte ll over the world becuse the films hve been shown ll over South Americ, Afric, ll over. When I sy "Gry Cooper," whole set of imges comes immeditely your mind. It's like humming the first few brs of Beethoven's Fifth... t t t Symphony d?you know the whole Fifth is Symphony brought mind by tht. It's short cut chrcteri ztion. I'm now thinking tht norml chrcteriztion in this country, ntu rlistic, trditionl, is more kin Now journlism. this is me putting on limb, but if I red n invenry of chrcter's possessions, his clothes nd ll tht, this doesn't necessrily tell me bout the chrcter. Often it is excessive nd redundnt. But if, s in Africn rt, I focus in on the prominent fetures of the chrcter, which is wht hppens lso in crons, like the Gump fmily? don't hve chins?or Nixon's five-o'clock shdow, I don't hve belbor tht nd it tells more of the chrcter thn exhustive detils, n invenry, Mcy's window dis In ply. Flight Cnd, for exmple, few fetures cn tell the chrcter of C. His monocle dropping. Tht's the wy it's done, I believe, in rt ll over the world?ocenic rt, rt in Afric, rt I've seen in museums. PN: A lot of Americn writing, prticulrly journlism, builds up the ide tht something is rel just by describing every single thing tht's round. I'm not sure whether tht comes from nineteenth-century rel ism or whether it suggests some deep uncertinty in Americ bout whether Americns relly exist. Do you hve ny theories? IR: Well, I think tht good del of is journlism fiction. I worked in journlism: you mke things up! Americn is journlism prone tht. I've tried new develop forms of For journlism. exmple, I think new journlism originted in the Est in Villge the sixties. They got the credit for it upwn becuse hve these m huge publicity chines, you know. But new journlism originted in the underground newsppers in New York becuse poets nd novelists were writing 118
journlism. And wht I've tried do recently is tke the ctul of techniques fiction nd pply them rel life, which is where certin kind of novel is heding. It mixes up the fictionl with the rel. The ncesr, the Americn ntecedent uthor whose work or precedes prefigures this work, is Blck writer nmed Willim Wells Brown, 1853. Now you won't red tht in the fncy journls becuse the verge Americn critic knows very little bout other trditions of Americn writing. Willim Wells Brown used newspper clippings, interviews, trvelogue mteril, ubiogrphy, fiction, ll in the sme book, more like pinter's form. I ld Chrles Dvis, who's n expert on Willim Wells Brown, tht if certin critic hd red his other work, like his trvelogue, My Three Yers in or Europe, his plys, he could hve seen tht Brown could hve written conventionl novel if he hd wnted. His descriptive powers were excellent, his ides, his er, his chrc ters?white, blck, whtever?were excellent nd convincing. Wht I try do is tke the of techniques fiction nd pply them rel event where the is plot given. Like boxing, the Muhmmed Ali nd Leon Spinks fight (in God Mde Alsk for the Indins, New York, 1982). But I don't write this wy when I submit newsppers. PN: When you were discussing existentilism, you tlked bout emo tion. You sid tht when you red Cmus, you were mde feel it ws very hip for guy not show ny sentiment, wheres the Afro Americn trdition is full of sentiment. In your novels, you suspend the reder's emotionl involvement, s in the comics; through lughter, you mke him think. Not sy there is no feeling: for one exmple, of the powerful emotionl scenes is in Mumbo Jumbo, when the white guy betrys his collegues who hve been re-steling slen Third World rt send it bck. But on the whole, you suspend the emotion. IR: Tht's true. I guess tht's the disposition I hve. But there re scenes poignnt in the novels. In Flight Cnd, for exmple, where Quickskill finds tht it's s just bd in Cnd s it is where he cme from. I use humor but I use other forms o. People would like dismiss me s humorist or stirist or prodist. These re just few I use in techniques my work. I don't use them exclusively. Some sid "Swift" so much tht I went out nd re-red Gulliver's Trvels. Mybe the ne is similr Swift's nd some of the erly Ltin stirists, but his work is more exposiry. PN: You sid in one of your interviews tht could lern lot bout the South from Poe. 119
IR: He hs lot of dungeons nd rture chmbers nd incest; you know, tht's rotten the core. society PN: My point is tht when the wolf howls in Poe, the blood is supposed curdle, but in your novel, one feels you've drgged the wolf onstge his howl. burlesque IR: I Right! know tht Poe didn't intend be funny, but when you red his work now, his work is so period it's musing. I'm sure he did not men lot of his work be funny but sometimes you cn't red his work without smiling or being mused t some of his drmtic scenes nd heroines. You cn stirize something like tht. Wht I do is prody some of Eddie Poe's poems in his lnguge. I've done the sme thing with Tennyson. PN: I wnt go in two directions here, one modern, the other ncient. The modern trck: t looking the development of your novels, it looks s though you hve moved on shorter unit in your work. I men unit of concentrtion. We cn cll it prgrph, but I'm thinking of timespn. The shorter spn from Yellow Bck Rdio onwrds mkes it esier red for Americns used wtching television. When I first cme this country, I found it little hrd jump round with the novels, just s I found it hrd concentrte on television becuse it hd so mny commercils. Now I find it esier. Ws this conscious develop ment? IR: Sure. We re influenced by television nd by jzz. Discontinuity. In one cn jzz mke ssocitions tht on the surfce do not seem hve nything do with nything, but when you think of the entire process, it mkes sense. It is unified. I think tht's wht I do in my work. The reder hs py ttention, hs keep up with it, but it's no different from someone strting off with or tune melody nd then improvising on it or merely lluding it. Tht's wht I try do. Tht ws conscious, yes. PN: Let's tke up the music lter. Now the other trck: you've tlked of your s in n writing being old trdition. You sid tht rt is lso fetish. You've tlked of Neo-Hoodoo. There is suggestion tht in your work, you're putting hoodoo on or somebody something. Sticking pins in doll. IR: Well, I don't know. I think writing cn often be prescient: you write these events nd in hppen the rel world. Tht's me hppened number of times. I think tht's one of the elements in Africn religion, the seer, the prophet, the necromncer. One lmost feels s one though 120
is receiving vision or reveltion in this work. I think the books cn be seen s mulets. An mulet, you know, is something you crry round nd sy crry my books round. With Mumbo Jumbo I dvise if you don't red it, put it over your door! Tht comes out of the ide of the holy book, the scred book. There re powers tht relly influence in strnge wys in those books. I'm not even wre of them ll. I wnt do some stge where I cn see things immeditely the udi ence's response something insted of guessing bout how will But do those respond.3 respond books in strnge wys nd there my be powers tht we unlesh in the books, in the words nd lnguge rhythms, which ffect in wys we don't know bout. PN: You sid bout "D Hexorcism of Noxon D Awful" tht you ctully, consciously, through this work put psychic fix on Nixon. IR: Yeh, it ws primitive piece which resembles more the dolls tht you see in ceremonies. I hd red religious something in Africn witch crft, which is not relly good nme, "witchcrft," tht there ws such s thing "the breth of men," where n enemy could be or destroyed fixed merely by the ide one put out. More nd more concentrte nd trnsmit evil telepthic upon enemy of the ntion or the cln. This is where the "Hexorcism" cme from. It knocked me out do tht becuse we ll, the Afro-Americn intellectuls, felt tht Nixon ws set going up concentrtion cmps here. Mybe he would hve done tht if he hd hd few more yers ply round with things. So tht ws the im of tht piece: ttck on Nixon. psychic PN: But sometimes when you sy tht, you're on stnding the side nd lughing. Let whether believe or not believe. like the wolf. You're decide for themselves IR: Yeh, well, I ws the first do this. All these novelists now hve Nixon s chrcter doing this nd tht, but in "Hexorcism," you could see the beginnings o? Mumbo Jumbo. LBs ppers, nd you cn lso see Louisin Red nd Minnie the Moocher. There re sketches of severl novels in tht one It ws piece. crowded piece, pcked piece, nd published in 1969. PN: In Yellow Bck Rdio, young kids rebel becuse wnt their own fictions?gin, the bstrct mde concrete. You re suggesting tht it is importnt for hve their own fictions. This is contrry the Americn ide tht fiction is oky but wht you need re your own fcts. IR: When I sy "own fictions," I men tht one cn spek more 121
ccurtely of the psychologicl hisry of if one knows the legends, the folklore, the old sries which hve been hnded down for genertions, the orl tles, ll of which tells you where you cme from, which shows the ntionl mind, the wy group of looks t the world. I think you cn scertin tht by going nd reconstructing pst which I cll Neo-Hoodoo in my work. I cll it Neo-Hoodoo becuse you cn hve your own psychology rther thn someone else's. In other words re trying mke us Europens in this country, nd we don't think tht wy. We re different; re different. I'm not socil biologist, but I think tht lthough w? cn go science prove our common ncestry?the one-cell moeb or some distnt primte or whtever?we re different nd it's wrong for one group of impose their psychology on nother. Blcks don't think the wy Euro pens think. The techniques of nlyzing the Europen psyche do not work with the Africn psyche, s Africns re discovering in the United Sttes! Tht's wht I men when I sy we hve crete our own fictions. We've been lied in this country. One of the resons the politicl ledership is so bd is the eductionl system. All these who committed these trocities in the lst wr ginst the Vietnmese?the Vietnmese were committing trocities o, let's not leve tht out?hd techers. They were educted in Americn schools which re mere exercises in chuvinism?euro-americn chuvinism. The tretment of Indins hs been disrted; the tretment of blcks hs been disrted. A few hundred yers of Americn hisry hve been given wrong interprettions so now wht we hve do is provide nother side, nother viewpoint. And tht's wht I try do in my novels. PN: You do it so humorously tht one sometimes pulls bck nd sys, "Is this true or not?" IR: I know, I know. Well, I think we'll keep it tht wy! Nobody knows when I'm serious. PN: Yet t the end o? Mumbo Jumbo, you hve long list of books for red. IR: Those re books which influenced the writing of Mumbo Jumbo. Those re ll the books tht I'd tken out of the librry. I think the older works help. Zor N. Hursn is mentioned there. Some of the blck feminist writers re sying tht none of the mles sys nything bout Zor N. Hursn: I certinly mentioned her in Mumbo Jumbo, which ws published in 1972. I mentioned her in complimentry wy nd used some of her reserch. I ws very conscious bout not knowing 122
these things: but should know these things becuse millions of ll over the Americs re with cquinted these ides. in People Puer Rico nd Cub nd Argentin nd Brzil nd other plces under stnd those books?'ve been trnslted in Spnish. Mumbo Jumbo is big seller in Spnish countries, South Americn countries becuse understnd nd cn relte spects of the Afro-Americn experiences here. PN: I would hve thought your ides would hve mde you blck ntionlist, but you use Afro-Americn trditions s mens of linking up with other s nd trditions. As publisher nd edir, you hve fought for Asin-Americns nd Indins, mong others, nd hve even been the first publish them. How do these things connect? IR: The Afro-Americn mteril I use is prt of n interntionl esthet ic tht blends in with other cultures very esily. It's You bsorptive. cnnot discuss these ides in the United Sttes without lot of uncler thinking becuse of the rcil prnoi nd trditions of rcism in this country, which my exist in other prts of the world but in different wy. In this hemisphere there re whites who re members of syncretic religions, Afro-Americn, Ntive Americn, Euro-Americn religions in Brzil nd other You plces. hve pictures of whites running temples or whites who hve become possessed by blck los. Africn mythologi cl systems get long very well with Euro-Americn ides nd Ntive Americn ides... Indins, blck gods, the sints. So wht I'm deling with is multi-culturl esthetic of which the Afro-Americn prt my be the strongest prt becuse tht is my strongest heritge, which is Ntive Americn nd Irish-Americn s well. PN: Tell us bout Yrdbird. IR: We lost the Yrdbird Reder mgzine. We got in court fight with members of our corportion who didn't do ll tht much for the comp ny nd president of the compny who didn't py txes, who wsn't pying bills, nd we were thretened with lwsuit. Al Young nd I hd put in our money rescue the compny. We were the ones who put up the money. I edited five issues of the Yrdbird Reder single hndedly nd Al Young did one nd I did the lyout for most of the issues. Art direcrs we hd chosen who were in the compny couldn't do the pste-up. They just hd no skills in pste-up or lyout so we disster fter disster. Tht cused lot of tension in the compny. we Finlly, dismissed the president nd he went out nd got couple of rt direcrs, one who ws inctive nd the other who ws not hd 123
re-elected the bord of direcrs in 1975. One judge greed with them. Gve them ll our invenry, books nd everything. They wnted more. It ok me three yers put out Clfi, for which I hd grnt from the Cliforni Arts Council. They wnted tht o. were They just incpble of on doing things their own. were They running prsitic gme on us. We put gether thing clled Yrdbird Lives! py off some debts nd py contriburs. The judge gve them the money! So the white were judges ctully encourging prsitism. Tht's one problem with socilism: wht do you do bout prsitism? So we lost the mgzine. We tried strt mgzine clled Y-Bird on the dvice of our lwyer nd we hd give tht up becuse of court order. In the United Sttes, you know, if there is conflict?this is hisricl?if there is conflict between Afro-Americns, the white mle court pprently will side with those who re incpble of produc ing. In three yers,4 these hven't out brought single book. I out brought eight books in three yers. They weren't cpble. The former president described writers s n endngered species nd he hd no in t bckground writing ll. He tried sy, on the bsis of two prgrphs he wrote on Mkonde sculpture, questionble prgrphs, tht he ws writer. Tht cme out in court. White mle courts nd bnks seem be ded set ginst Afro-Americn enterprise. Yet when we re on reservtions nd on welfre, we get criticized for tht o. So you cn't win. If this hd been white compny like Ford or Generl Mors nd the direcrs hdn't out cr brought in three yers, I don't think the court would hve mde the sme decision. we Anywy, lost tht mgzine becuse of wht I consider the vindictiveness nd mlice of one mn who ws former president nd who set out destroy the compny. We don't hve tht mgzine nymore. PN: I didn't know tht. I liked the mgzine: it ws culturl. relly multi IR: I think it ccomplished its purpose: it brought in writers who hd never been before. I published selected those writers, nd Al Young nd I brought ll the revenue in. These out on relly vmped tht? didn't do nything. Anything did just interfered with the work nd it. Tht ws conflict we couldn't resolve. It's not dmged over we yet. Eventully, will del with these. They hve be delt with. We cn't hve this I hppen. men, wht would blck children think? They will look t this cse nd sy: "We cn get something for nothing. We cn be pimps." It just encourges pimping 124
s fr s I'm concerned, nd I'm ded set ginst tht. So we will del with these nd we will hve our supporters in this community del with these. We feel should be ostrcized. The court sided with prsites. PN: Tht's something very old in Americ. IR: It's in Afric o. You see wht hppens in Afric when the British nd French go in?white men select their soges who rob the country blind nd who re not progressive. This hppens ll over the world. All the writers we know, ll from the rts should hve some kind of common nswer this thing becuse it's going continue. They re lwys going try mnipulte us. And I wnt tell you nother thing tht These hppened. blcks on the other side were lwys spek ing of their devotion blckness; yet hired white lwyer who ws very vicious us. For exmple, the lwyer broke in our wre house nd our dmged books, knocked over books?white men hired by blck men. They kept my personl mil nd it. opened Which is crime! They received no for this. punishment They interfered with our liberties. PN: But tht didn't sp you s publisher. IR: No! Tht's not going sp me! Tht ws one only compny I ws involved in. I lso hve I REED BOOKS. I hve very good reltionship with my prtner in Reed & Cnnon Communictions. We're doing video films nd re going keep publishing books. But the relly difficult prt is tht I ws getting relly discourged when I herd this first decision hnded down by this judge, whom I lter referred s hnging-cowboy judge, which cme up t nother tril. "Why did you cll this mn hnging-cowboy judge nd why did you cll this blck n plintiff idle cfe negro nd self-styled oppressed genius?" I sid, "Well, it's my reding of hisry, mn!" Wshingn, DuBois nd Grvey hd the sme problems. Knowing tht relly gve me strength, know tht this is one problem hs del with if one ttempts build something nd construct something: in other words, go out of one's plce. We got this we mgzine, published whites, we Ntive published Americns, our were mgzines hndsome nd I good-looking. did Yrdbird Five myself nd yet these wnt prt of everything I do! I wnt Anything do wnt go court nd get prt of. It seems I've got these leeches on me. s Mybe prsites, Al Young sys, is o term elegnt describe these. 125
PN: The Before Columbus Foundtion seems be more powerful. IR: The Before Columbus Foundtion is more powerful thn this other We project. hve been gether since 1976 nd we re from different bckgrounds: Jewish-Americns, Irish-Americns, Ntive Americns, Asin-Americns. Our chirmn is Shwn Wong. Vicr Cruz nd I founded it in 1976 nd we ok on Bob Cllhn, who ws gret help us. We hve wrehouse nd we distribute books nd hve intern tionl recognition. We get orders from ll over the world. PN: Do you see the control of business s opertions very importnt the writer? IR: Sure it is, becuse then we cn determine the kind of imges. We hve control over our imges nd ides nd scripts nd everything. Like our sop oper. There re blck in working my sop oper. PN: Your sop oper? IR: Reed & Cnnon Communictions. We've produced film lredy. These were selfless, scrificed: Bill Gunn, Crmn Moore, Wlter Cotn, Vert Me Grosvenor, Jim Wright. PN: Isn't sop oper o light form for you use? IR: I think tht remins be seen. Remember the Western elements in Yellow Bck Rdio Broke-Down. And I think the sme is thing hppen ing with the sop oper. We wnt use relly forms tht Americns re cquinted with. Then we cn get cross them. All forms cn be shped by the rtists who use them. PN: The other dy you sid you red the business section of the news first. In your essys, you criticized some blck Americns who think cn push their ides without hving finncil power. IR: Tht's wht I her ll the time?debtes between blck intellectuls bout politics, nd hve no nor orgniztions finncil power nor institutions nor see technology these ides through. So these become empty ides. The verge Afro-Americn intellectul lives in n ideolog icl cloud. Wht's hppening in New York nd New is Englnd power struggle?it's very interesting look t this stuff from Oklnd, Cli forni becuse I cn see clerly wht's on. going There's big struggle now, over big power struggle liberl ptronge mong Afro-Americn writers nd intellectuls. PN: You're s sying, you implied in Flight Cnd, tht the old ptterns of never slvery relly ended. IR: Of course. As mtter of fct, Al Young nd I, when we herd the Yrdbird decision, the Sprrow Decision, from quoted Roll, Jordn, Roll 126
where it sid tht the freed negroes were encourged fter slvery re-enslve themselves. There's lso book clled Been in the Srm So Long, the Aftermth of Slvery5 where it is sid tht fter the Civil Wr, wht wnted do ws hve blcks go in nd contrcts sign which sid the conditions would remin s were before. Tht's wht re doing here. We re in the position of the so-clled freed negroes. We re trying build our own institutions. We get some jckls who go out nd get the white mle plnters nd plnttion nd the white mle judicil system sp us. Tht's wht in hppened this cse. Our trney, Howrd Moore, sw this. It ws godsend mn get like tht who hs rgued before the Supreme Court nd ws one of the who got Julin Bond his set bck on the Georgi We went Legislture. him nd he knew EXACTLY wht ws going on, the hisricl nd culturl rmifictions. He predicted wht would hppen, tht in conflict between competent nd incompetent, the white judicil system would side with the s incompetent wy of us in our us on keeping plce, keeping the reservtion. But cn't do this ny longer. The interntionl sitution is different from wht it ws in the nineteenth century. We know intellectuls in Afric, South Americ. We re in correspondence with in Turkey nd ll over. We're writers. So we're going the now. community You cn't get justice in the courts. I men, the lst decision ws better thn nothing? we got hlf our money bck for Yrdbird Lives! nd didn't get Clfi, which is wht wnted, like vultures. PN: In Flight Cnd, three slves escpe nd one of them tries ern enough money buy his freedom. When it comes criticl point, it is reveled tht he cnnot ctully buy his freedom. IR: The slvemster didn't wnt him buy it, he didn't wnt ny money, he wnted HIM! Tht's wht we hve here. Al Young nd I hve been slves. Wht these decisions sy is tht slvery is legl. These two decisions cme out in Cliforni nd I think these re hisric decisions, though, in pssing, didn't get medi ttention. This Sprrow Deci sion is very importnt decision. It sys if you get in corportion with who re incompetent, cn tke your books, cn tke your money, cn tke your energy, cn tke your effort?nd tht's slvery. PN: If you hd write this in your fiction, you'd probbly hve court cse over some strnge niml, perhps rcoon.... IR: I know, I know. Give me time! (Lughter) Mybe rt! 127
PN: I don't know whether I should sk this kind of question becuse I know the s perils writer. When you crete chrcter, you've creted chrcter. But there re mny chrcters in your work who resemble or re prodies of IR: Yes, sure. from rel life. PN: In Louisin Red, there is chrcter, Minnie the Moocher, who looks very much like Angel Dvis. In fct, I bought the book nd ' Dvis Angel ubiogrphy simultneously: were published simul tneously by the sme I ws publisher. gret dmirer of Angel Dvis. I ws very struck t the first reding of the novel tht you put chrcters, who would in rel life be s regrded dimetric, ideologicl opposites, on the sme side. You put on the sme side s Moochers Minnie, Street seems (who be bsed on Eldridge Clever) nd the President. They didn't work but were on prsites those who did work; nd ultimtely Minnie nd Street were being mnipulted, it turns out, by sinister one figures, of whom ws s disguised Mmmy. In Flight Cnd, there is chrcter who goes the s n Congo nd nthropologist gets thrown the crocodiles, coming bck hunt his prents. One thinks of Nelson Rockefeller's son. And the fther, like Nelson Rockefeller, suffers from tht's so-nd-so"? dyslexi. How do you del with this kind of comment: "Oh, IR: I think I hd better keep tht myself. PN: You hd lot of white students in the udience the other dy when you red. In fct, were in the mjority. IR: Tht's right. PN: They seemed enjoy it nd ctch every reference. It's s if you're sying tht if the mind is clered of... prejudice. IR: I'm very plesed with the reception I've gotten from ll over, from ll different ntions nd from ll different bckgrounds, ll different rces nd ll different clsses. I think tht's wht Vodun is, tht's wht Vodun does: bring from ll different ntions nd bckgrounds gether. Tht's wht it's ll bout. Tht's wht it's ll bout in Hiti nd in Brzil. PN: In your fiction nd poetry, you hve kind of counter psychic gunmn: chrcters who trck down nd mke them py. You use the phrse, "mking psychic rrest." You lso punish the exploit tive "experts" by the over subject which clim be expert. You mke it work on their minds until get swllowed up. For exmple, the on expert the dung beetle in Pllberers who rolls his own dung, nd 128
the on expert Ntive Son in Louisin Wright's Red who drems he is Mry bout be rped by Bigger nd then, dreming tht he is Bigger, kills his It seems co-conspirr. like gret But in nother joke. wy, you put hex on so person tht he gets punished by wht he is doing. IR: Right. I tlk bout the Ghede-Ghede, lo who shows ech mn his Devil! So ech mn bers the possibility of destruction obsessions. PN: Like Nixon keeping tpes on himself? by his own IR: Oh, yes. PN: One more striking thing bout the fiction. You hve n mzing number of twists nd turns of the plot. IR: Like jzz. I m influenced by jzz. I used ply the trombone in jzz bnds nd nightclubs. When I ws going university I would do tht. Tht's the wy the solos go. Tht's the wy you improvise nd tht's wht I do, twist nd turn. One phrse clling nother phrse mind. I think it's orderly, though, nd I think it mkes sense; it's connected. There's more vriety nd surprise, it's more entertining nd more interesting the serious reder. And not just the professionl reder. Kids red my stuff, you know, nd get gret del of enjoyment from it. There's whole genertion tht's on Pllberers, which is book for which I still get cught with the whip. I wrote it when I ws or twenty-four twenty-five nd I've chnged lot since then. I wsn't exctly prodigy. PN: How do you think you've chnged? IR: I think I'm getting better. I think mybe in ten yers I'll be good writer. PN: Wht drew you the novel form? IR: I think it's becuse I'm long winded. I cn't write short sry. By the time I write short sry, I sy, "Mn, this could be book." Or poem. Flight Cnd cme out of poem. I wrote poem clled "Flight Cnd." I t kept looking tht poem nd thought, "Mn, there is in good plot here. Let me develop this." And before you know it, I hd novel. PN: I'm interested in the Indin connection becuse the Indins were the originl inhbitnts here. IR: They're not the originl inhbitnts. There were cme. PN: Who ws here? here when IR: Well, we don't know. But some describe them s sne-ge, 129
which is no longer derogry without nucler wr. term. Sne-ge mn lived 150,000 yers PN: Do you hve Indin ncestry? IR: I think so. I just don't know which tribes. I'm more doing reserch. There re definitely Ntive Americns in our fmily. PN: Do Ntive Americn beliefs come you through hve you hd reserch them? the fmily? IR: Reserch. There ws lot of intermrrige between blcks nd Indins in this country, just like intermrrige between blcks nd whites. In fct, Willim Wells Brown sys tht one out only of four slves ws true Africn. The Africn rce disppered fter the first genertion. Abrhm Lincoln tlked bout ll the multes in the south in his election cmpign. PN: But if you go fr bck enough in hisry, everybody's mixed. IR: I know. Tht's why ny discussion bout pure rce is bsurd. I think the Americns re Creole from the Arctic down Argentin. And nybody who doesn't understnd tht just isn't t looking the sitution clerly. I'm trying get more informtion bout my I cme heritge. in contct with Ntive Americns in the west nd I publish them, nd their ides hve influenced my writing. I think tht will be cler in my next novel. I found n mzing prllel between the wy the Ntive Americns nd Africns look t the world. It's very interesting. I wonder if there ws link-up long time go. Tht's wht interested me bout the Ntive Americns. I thought I ws relly hot shot Neo-Hoodoo writer going bck folklore nd everything, but there is whole body of mteril I missed. Lerning bout the Ntive Americns?this is multi-culturlism t the highest level, lerning bout nother group in order discover your own bckground. There ws probbly world-wide culture t one time. PN: Is this wht you're trying estblish? IR: I think so. I think it's lost. There re frgments of it we cn use. From these we cn reconstruct frgments perhps it. Tht's we why hve Before Columbus. NOTES Or 1 Iow City; Ocber 13, 1979 2 Since published in Quilt 1. 130
3 Ishmel Reed's first ply, "Hell Hth No ws t Fury," presented Acr's Studio in New York, June, 1980, nd t Drtmouth College, July, 1981. A musicl version o? Flight Cnd, scripted by Bill Cook nd presented by-the Americn Folk Theter, opened in New York in April, 1982. 4 Now more thn six yers. 5 By Leo Litwck, New York: Knopf, 1979. 131