Christ in Prophecy Creation 4: Jobe Martin on Evolution - Part 1 2009 Lamb & Lion Ministries. All Rights Reserved. For a video of this show, please visit http://www.lamblion.com. Opening Dr. Reagan: Did the earth come into existence through a Big Bang or was it created by God? Did life evolve slowly over hundreds of millions of years? Or was it the results of Special Creation by God? Which is the best explanation of the world we see around us, Special Creation or Evolution? And does it really make any difference. Stay tuned. Part 1 Dr. Reagan: Greetings in the name of Jesus our blessed hope, I am Dave Reagan Senior Evangelist for Lamb and Lion Ministries. I want you to know that I am really excited about the program that we have for you. Not only this week but for the next few weeks we re going to present several programs about the important issue of Creation versus Evolution. And my special expert guest for all three programs is going to be this gentleman Dr. Jobe Martin who is the founder and director of the Biblical Discipleship Ministries located in Rockwall, Texas a suburb or Dallas. Dr. Martin we are really happy to have you with us. Dr. Martin: Well we are glad to be here David, we had many years my wife and I, Jenna Dee listening to your program, reading your literature we appreciate that. Dr. Reagan: Well thank you very much. I am also glad to have in the studio with me my associate Nathan Jones who serves as our Web Minister. Nathan is on the web everyday talking to people all over the world about all kind of questions. Right Nathan? Nathan Jones: Yes, sir. Dr. Reagan: Well we are glad to have you with us. 1
Nathan Jones: Well hey it s great I have been using Dr. Martin s materials Incredible Creatures that Defy Evolution for years in Bible studies and I get to actually meet the guy behind the videos. Dr. Reagan: Well I know that, I know you have a special interest in this topic which is the reason I wanted you to be on here to help us interview Dr. Martin. You know folks I first became acquainted with Dr. Martin when one of the trustees of this ministry sent me a book by him. It was this book right here, it is entitled The Evolution of a Creationist. I was immediately captivated by the very, very clever title. I began reading the book and I really couldn t put it down. I was blessed by his enthusiasm for his subject and by his thoroughly Biblical approach. I was also impressed by the gift of communication the Lord has given him, as you are going to find out in these interviews he really knows how to explain complex ideas in simple, down-to-earth terms. Now Dr. Martin before I ask you some questions about your background so that we can get a feel for your qualifications. I just want to jump right into the topic of Evolution versus Creation. I want to do it by telling you about an experience I had recently. I was at a church, a very conservative church up in Oklahoma and I was teaching the combined adult Sunday school classes on Sunday morning. And some question had been asked I don t remember what it was and in the process I just happened to mention off-hand that I was a person who believed the Genesis story meant exactly what it said that I took it literally, that I believed the Earth was created in 6 literal days about 6,000 years ago. And as I was saying that a man suddenly just stood up, interrupted me and said, I am outraged over what you just said. He said, People like you are the ones who make Christians like me look like a moron. He says, Anybody knows that science has already proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the earth is billions of years old. And then you stand up like a moron and say it is only 6,000 years old. How would you have responded to such a person? Have you ever had such an experience? Dr. Martin: I d punch him in the nose. Nathan Jones: My kind of guy. Dr. Reagan: Amen. 2
Dr. Martin: Well That s what your flesh wants to do. Dr. Reagan: Well I know it. I suspect you have had a few of these experiences. Dr. Martin: Well the Spirit says love them, so you love em, and then it depends how you want to come at it. If they say they are a Christian then I ll usually go back, and I will say, OK you say you are a Christian. Do you believe what the Bible says? Of course I believe what the Bible says. OK well then you say you don t believe in the Creation like the Bible describes it, you believe the way Evolution describes it. Well because science has proven it. I ll say, Well OK. Well now tell me do you believe in virgin births? Well of course I do. I say, Well you better because if you don t believe in virgin birth Jesus inherited an Adamic sin nature and He couldn t be the sinless lamb. But I could prove with science that virgin birth does not happen in humans. Well how? Well we could lock up virgin young ladies for 9 months are they going to come out and have babies? No absolutely not! Okay so we can do a scientific experiment that proves virgins don t have babies. But you say you believe in virgin birth. Why? Well because the Bible says so. Okay well then I will say, Do you believe in Resurrection? Well of course I do. I say, Well you better because if don t believe in Resurrection you are not going to Heaven. It is appointed, what s a man supposed to do confess with our mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart God raised Him for the dead, Romans 10:9 that you will be saved. So resurrection is part of salvation. I said, So you believe in Resurrection? Of course. I say, Well I can, I can prove Resurrection doesn t happen do you want to volunteer? And uh, nobody ever volunteers. I could shoot people dead here, unless the Rapture happens, but I could shoot people dead, there not going to come popping up, ok. So I will say, You believe in virgin birth, you believe in Resurrection we can prove with science that neither one of those are going to happen. Then you say, But you don t believe in Creation like the Bible describes it. And there is lots of science that really support the Creation idea just like the Bible presents it. And so I would say, Probably what is going on here you love the approval of men more then the approval of God, John 5:44, John 12:43. Well you really believe in going for the jugular don t you? Well there is no time to waste. The Lord could come soon let s get busy here. 3
Nathan Jones: Dr. Martin considering science I hear from Christians all the time that they say carbon dating has proven that the Earth is millions of years old and therefore we can t take the Creation account as valid. What do you think about carbon, is that true that carbon dating proven that world is million of years old? Dr. Martin: Well the carbon 14 question comes up everywhere I go and on college campuses I usually don t say anything about it. And then a student will raise their hand, Well what about carbon 14 doesn t that prove that things are thousands of years old? Dr. Reagan: Millions or whatever. Dr. Martin: Yes I will just say to them, Well look, let me ask you a question. How does the earth s magnetic field affect the formation of carbon 14? And they will say, Huh? Dr. Reagan: That is what I was about to say, huh? Dr. Martin: And I will say, How does the earth s magnetic field affect the formation of carbon 14? They will say, What do you mean? I will say, What I mean is how does earth s magnetic field effect the formation of carbon 14? Well see there are all sorts of assumptions behind these dating techniques that nobody knows anything about even the professors don t know about these assumptions. I in eight years in scientific education I was never taught the assumptions. So there is no evidence, scientific evidence. Testable evidence that is provable that is reproducible that proves that this universe is billions of years old. And they ll use carbon 14 but it would only work actually for a few hundred years if you want to do it accurately. Dr. Reagan: And it is based upon assumptions, such as one assumption is that there was never a world wide flood. Dr. Martin: Owe yes for sure. Dr. Reagan: And if let s say there was a water canopy around the earth before the flood. 4
Dr. Martin: Yes. Well water filters out the kinds of rays Dr. Reagan: That s right. Dr. Martin: that would have to get into our atmosphere to make carbon 14. Ah. So that would mean before the flood there would have been very little carbon 14 formed. So if they find a bone and it is organic things that they check with carbon 14, if they find a bone and they date it with carbon 14 they would say, This bone is thousands of years old. Well maybe not. If there was a canopy and it was a bone from a dinosaur, let s say that was here before the Flood. The bone would not have picked up very much carbon 14. So when they measure it they get a false reading. Nathan Jones: Weren t they getting readings like snails that are alive that are 27,000 years old, and penguins that are 8,000 years old. Dr. Martin: They do. Nathan Jones: Mammoths where one leg was 44,000 years old and the other leg was only 27,000 years old. Dr. Martin: The dating techniques they are arbitrary. They really are arbitrary. Dr. Reagan: So basically if you began with evolutionary assumptions you are going to end up with what you want to. Well exactly, exactly in other words for instance like if they know the age of a rock basically and they test it you can t trust the dates. But if they don t know the age of a rock let s say billions of years they think it is, and they test it then they think they can know what that age is. So like Mount Saint Helens they dated the rocks they knew how old they were, volcanic rock and they were up to 3.8 million years dating them. But it was only like at that time about 10 years. Nathan Jones: Since the eruption? Dr. Martin: Exactly. 5
Nathan Jones: Huh. Dr. Martin: So I mean the dating techniques are arbitrary but they fit within the worldview. And so if you don t believe in God, if you don t believe in the Creation then what are you going to do? You are going to have to find ways to try and justify what you think is going to take to get here, which is billions of years. So they just take those dating techniques they publish the figures they don t tell you the assumptions like huge assumptions what they have to assume. For instance if there dating was a technique called Uranium to Lead if there is any lead in the rock to begin with their dating technique would be totally wrong. So they just assume that there wasn t any lead to begin with, or they assume the rate at which it breaks down has always been the same. We know you can speed up and slow down those rates with heat and radiation and different things, so yes, huge assumptions. So what we both believe by faith in something eternal, whether we are an Evolutionist or a Creationist, whether an Atheist or a Christian. We either believe by faith in eternal matter, that would be an evolutionist or by faith in an eternal God. They are both faith based systems because you can t prove it no one was here. Nathan Jones: They are both religions. Dr. Martin: Yes, you can t duplicate it. Yeah. You can t make Adam from dust again you can t make the Big Bang go kaboom again if it ever happened. Part 2 Dr. Reagan: Dr. Martin tell us a little bit about your background. I know people viewing are saying okay now this guy seems to know what he is talking about but does he have any academic credentials? So tell us a little bit about your background. You didn t start out as a creationist did you? Dr. Martin: I sure didn t. Well maybe I did kind of but I don t think so. I was raised in the church. Dr. Reagan: Okay. 6
Dr. Martin: Went off to college Bucknell University majored in Biology and Music. Uh, by the time I got out of there I was an Evolutionist. Then I went to Dental School. And so when I got out of Dental School in 1966 I was agnostic, even though I had been raised in the church I didn t know if God existed. I didn t say He didn t exist, atheist. I was looking into Zen Buddhism, this was back in the 60 s the New Age hippy type of stuff which was popular. You can remember those days. Dr. Reagan: You were one cool guy here. Dr. Martin: Yeah. So I am an agnostic, Zen Buddhist, evolutionist. Then uh, I was scheduled to be the dentist for President Johnson s flight crews, Air Force One, Presidential Fleet that was Dr. Reagan: Were you in the Air Force at the time? Dr. Martin: Yes I was going into the Air Force there and but I am in basic training at Wichita Falls, Texas and uh, I decided to say a prayer to the God of the Bible. Now I don t know if He is there, but I am just thinking God of the Bible. So I said, Okay God, if you are up there you have two choices. You can either show me the girl I am going to marry, or you are going to see the wildest Air Force officer you have ever seen. Dr. Reagan: Oh. Dr. Martin: Jenna Dee says he must have been shaking in his shoes, a joke of course. But that is the day I meet my wife. Dr. Reagan: That s some prayer. Dr. Martin: Yes, I meet my wife on that day. And I knew, I knew I was going to marry her, and I did 41 years ago. Dr. Reagan: Did you let her know that? 7
Dr. Martin: I did the very next day. Nathan Jones: Wow! Dr. Martin: I told her I was going to marry her, I didn t ask her to marry me I just told her, I said I m going to marry her. Nathan Jones: She didn t run away? Dr. Martin: Yeah, well she didn t like that at first, but anyway. So but I decided I think the God of the Bible must exist because the very day I prayed that prayer is the day I meet Jenna Dee. So I got to Washington D.C. and decided I better go to church. I walked in the first church I came to, on the way out the pastor shook my hand and said, Captain is there anything I can do that might help you spiritually? Well I said, Anything you can do will help me spiritually, I am zero. And I was, raised in the church, never read the Bible. Alright according to the Barna report most people that call themselves Christians have never read the Bible all the way through even one time. Anyway he asked me to read the Bible, and we read Matthew, Mark, Luke, John not all on the same morning. We got to John 3:16 and that is the verse God brought me into the family. Dr. Reagan: Wow. Dr. Martin: For God so loved the world, I was part of the world, loved the world I thought God loves me, He loved the world that He gave only begotten Son His name is Jesus. That whosever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. And I put my faith and trust in the Lord Jesus. Then later on got offered a job at Baylor on the faculty and I gave Dr. Reagan: This is Baylor Dental School? Dr. Martin: Baylor College of Dentistry in Dallas and I gave my first lecture on the evolution of the tooth. I did I was still an evolutionist now. I went from being an agnostic, Zen Buddhist, evolutionist to being a Theistic Evolutionist. I still had God, now had God 8
but I still had the Big Bang and billions of years. I give this lecture how fish scales moved into the mouth became teeth. Nathan Jones: Okay. Dr. Martin: And two students came up and challenged me after class I can t believe I believed that but that is what I was taught. They are still teaching that to our kids. Dr. Reagan: Fish scales became teeth? Dr. Martin: Fish scales became teeth, yep. Nathan Jones: Crawled up there huh? Dr. Martin: Yes, yes. There is no relationship between scales and teeth whether you look at, anyway. So they challenged me, and I said, Well okay let s study creation science. I am thinking cocky rooky professor you know I will wipe these guys out, where they are coming from. I became a literal Biblically creationist, it took awhile. But I believed what the Bible said, we studied the assumptions the evolutionist made and we also looked at creatures. The first one was the bombardier beetle maybe we talk about that sometime. Dr. Reagan: Yeah. Dr. Martin: But anyway so that was kind of the progression of things. And then uh, I resigned my professorship, I was a full professor with tenure at the dental school and went to Dallas Theological Seminary. Dr. Reagan: Wow that was a big steep of faith. Dr. Martin: Well it was. I think the Lord He just worked it out so that was just the thing to do. And my family agreed so that is what we did. So since 1986 we ve been having this ministry. 9
Dr. Reagan: So you are a man with a scientific background in Biology and Dental Medicine and uh, so you have some credentials to be talking about this. Dr. Martin: Well I sure came up through the system. Dr. Reagan: Okay. Dr. Martin: I have been on all sides of the fence. Dr. Reagan: Well how about looking right into this camera here and telling folks how they can get in touch with your ministry. Dr. Martin: Probably the easiest way to get in touch with us would be through our, we have two web pages one is www.biblicaldiscipleship.org, and the other one is www.evolutionofacreationist.com. So those two have most of what we do. Dr. Reagan: And through those websites can they sign up to be on your newsletter mailing list? Dr. Martin: On the evolutionofacreationist.com I believe we post our monthly letter, or bimonthly letter. Dr. Reagan: And then you can also get books and publications, videos through that website. Dr. Martin: Yes, uh, most everything and we have an e-mail address. Dr. Reagan: And if people are interested in having you come and speak at the church or some group they can contact you through that website? Dr. Martin: Uh, they can, and we just go we are free. Dr. Reagan: And where is your ministry located. 10
Dr. Martin: It is in Rockwell, TX, just outside Dallas, TX. Dr. Reagan: Okay. So I hope that people will contact you because I tell you, you have a wonderful ministry with tremendous resources and as they have already seen in this program you are a very effective communicator. I still like your answer to that question, just poke him in the mouth. Dr. Martin: You do feel like that, grab them and shake em. Dr. Reagan: Well we will be back in just a moment. But first we are going to give some our viewers an opportunity to see how they can get one of your resources and then we will come back. We are just bubbling over with questions. Part 3 Dr. Reagan: Welcome back to our studio and our special guest Dr. Jobe Martin who is the founder of Biblical Discipleship Ministries and is an expert on the issue of Evolution versus Creationism. And I have also with me one of our staff members here Nathan Jones, who is the Web Minister for our ministry. Dr. Martin I d like to pick up where we left off talking about your background. Now you said you had some students at the Baylor Medical School, the Baylor Dental School who challenged you about the idea that fish scales became teeth because you were an evolutionist at that time. Dr. Martin: Yes. Dr. Reagan: And you said you began to study the issue, and I compliment you on that, because there are many people who would have such closed minds they wouldn t do it, but you did begin to study. What was it that convinced you that moved you from being an evolutionist to a creationist? Dr. Martin: Well three things, number one I am studying my Bible because I am a baby Christian basically. Dr. Reagan: Okay. 11
Dr. Martin: So I am reading my Bible and studying the Bible seeing what God says. Then the students asked me to look at the assumptions that the evolutionist made, which I was never taught, and there still not teaching our kids. And what s that like you read their original article, like Libby the fellow who invented carbon 14 and he ll say, I think this, we believe this, we posit this, perhaps this. Those are the assumptions. And I began to realize that these assumptions they aren t valid, they are not valid at all, they aren t true. And then we are looking at some animals I was a Biology major, and I don t know where these fellows came up with it, but they brought this bombardier beetle to me one day and they said, Well Dr. Martin let s study this little bug see if you think it can evolve, and how could it evolve? And it s a little bug that shoots fiery hot gases out of twin tail tubes. And it would blow it self up every step of the way, it needed all of its parts. Dr. Reagan: Doesn t have things in separate sacks or something and they combine together and heat to 212 degrees or something. Dr. Martin: Exactly right, yes. And so it is shooting these Dr. Reagan: It sounds like it ought to blow up. Dr. Martin: It would if it didn t have all of it parts I mean it needs like a combustion chamber. But even if it had that and mixed it chemical so that this violent reaction happened if it didn t have the twin tail tubes to shoot it out it would still blow it self up. And so I began to realize these things are irreducibly complex. You know our kids do fractions and they reduce them down, and can t reduce them down anymore. And that is like this little bug it needed all if parts, you couldn t have a partially evolved canon. It is going to blow up the bug. So yeah it had to been made complete, mature, fully functional. And so I began to think well look God is telling me He made everything He did it in 6 days, He did it just a short time ago about 6,000 years ago. And then I look at this and I say well there is no way it could evolve, billions of years couldn t produce that it would be dead, survival of the fittest it wouldn t work. And well if God created that little bug, and uh, and it needed a God to create it there is no way it could have evolved all of it parts at one time. Well then why not a God that created everything? And that is what 12
really got me thinking you know what I think I can trust that Bible, now I know I can trust it. Dr. Reagan: Nathan. Nathan Jones: Would you say then, uh, because sounds like the bombardier beetle was the thing that really changed your mind. What do you say then is the greatest argument for Special Creation, is it complexity of nature or something else? Dr. Martin: Well I think the greatest argument for Special Creation is the Bible. Nathan Jones: Hmm. Dr. Martin: Uh, what does it say? If we call ourselves a Christian we should look at the Bible and just take what it says, and that s what it teaches it teaches Creation. Now, praise God there s other evidences that come in and uh, there are huge weaknesses with the Evolution side of thing, but we are never taught those things. Dr. Reagan: Alright let me play the Devil s advocate here now for a moment. You say the Bible. Okay I would respond and I know how people respond to this they say, Okay first of all the Bible is not a science book, it s a book about God s relationship with man and this sort of thing, but it is certainly not a science book. So we can t go to the Bible to find anything that is scientific. How do you respond to that? Dr. Martin: Well first of all, the Bible is a science book. When it deals with things that have to deal with science, it is not exhaustive, it doesn t tell us everything but what it does tell us is true. And when it tells us for instance, God made the heavens and the earth He did it within a six day week, well that is science. What do the evolutionist say? Well their science says it was billion of years. So they can t say if we talk about days that s not science, and if they talk about billions of years that is science, there s contradictions there. Nathan Jones: Yeah. 13
Dr. Reagan: Isn t the Bible full of a lot of revelations that science discovered later on? Like, people talk about, for example people would say anybody that believes in a special Creation in six days would probably believe in a flat earth. They always call us flat earth people. Nathan Jones: Always flat earth, yeah. Dr. Reagan: But the Bible teaches that the Earth is a circle, right? Dr. Martin: It does, Isaiah chapter 40, yes. Dr. Reagan: And the hydraulic system is in the Bible. Dr. Martin: It is. Dr. Reagan: I mean there is one scientific system after another that is revealed in the Bible. In fact one that comes to my mind is Paul says over in Romans that all of creation is in bondage to decay. He wrote that in the First Century it wasn t until what the Nineteenth Century that science discovered the Second Law of Thermo Dynamics which says the same thing. Dr. Martin: Um-huh, yes. Well he said all kinds of things that there is no way he could know. Like in First Corinthians 15 I think it is verse 39 he says there are these different kinds of flesh, one flesh of men, another flesh of beast, another flesh of birds, another flesh of fish. They just discovered that in my lifetime, at the cytoplasmic level of the cell there are basic different kinds of flesh. Dr. Reagan: Yeah. Dr. Martin: Two-thousand years ago God s apostle under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said look there are these different kinds of flesh, so yes. Dr. Reagan: Okay now this brings me to a point that you make in your book over and over, and I think it is one of the fundamental points you make. And that is, we are not 14
talking about faith versus science, we are talking one kind of faith versus another kind of faith. Aren t you saying that even scientists are operating in faith? Dr. Martin: Yes. Dr. Reagan: Elaborate that point for us. Well, it, you have to decide where do we start, and so scientist that don t believe in the Bible they believe in Evolution, they start somewhere. They start with the Big Bang usually. As a matter of fact if you would ask them what was here before the Big Bang, I have done that on campuses and they ll say we don t ask that questions. So they believe by faith in their system. Dr. Reagan: Now that takes a lot of faith to believe that an explosion can create order, I have never seen an explosion do anything but create chaos. Dr. Martin: You think about that yes, order, regularity, symmetry, beauty, predictability, all those things. Dr. Reagan: No explosion produces those things. That is a big leap of faith right there. Dr. Martin: I believe it, I believe it is, yes it is. Nathan Jones: It reminds me of Hebrews 11:1, Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. And that is faith that is the definition of religion and evolutionist work just like Christians on that belief in something they don t see. Dr. Martin: Yes. Dr. Reagan: And we hear people all the time saying well we can t have a religious viewpoint taught in the public schools we have to have a scientific viewpoint. But really the scientific viewpoint of Evolution is a type of faith, it is a type of religion. Dr. Martin: It is. 15
Dr. Reagan: Isn t it? Dr. Martin: Exactly. Nathan Jones: Everyone is dictating in the school systems. Dr. Martin: Well sure it is a total worldview and all worldviews are based on a religious system. Dr. Reagan: Yes. Dr. Martin: And the thing that underlies and is the foundation of their religious system is the idea of Evolution, and they have to have that if they decide there is no God. Dr. Reagan: And you know as a person who grew up in education I taught at the university level for 20 years before I went into ministry. It just really upsets me when I see these people absolutely demand that no alternative viewpoint be presented. Because the essence of education is you look at all the viewpoints the evidence for all the viewpoints and try to decide which is the best one. It s not a matter of propaganda it is a matter education is not propaganda. Dr. Martin: No. Dr. Reagan: And what they are wanting is propaganda. Dr. Martin: Exactly right. Dr. Reagan: All we are asking is for equal time. Dr. Martin: Exactly right. Nathan Jones: They are a priesthood, they re the priesthood of their own religion. Dr. Martin: Right. 16
Dr. Reagan: Why are they so afraid, if they are so confident that their view is correct why are they so frightened of even having somebody exposed to an alternative viewpoint? Dr. Martin: That is true. In other words they know. For instance debates on the campuses where you ll have a creationist versus an evolutionist the evolutionist loses every time, or they won t even debate us anymore. And so it s like they know they have a faith based system and they don t want anybody bringing up any questions about it. Dr. Reagan: Well one of the things that is fascinating to me is how the whole evolutionary field has retreated in recent years to the point of saying well yeah there has design but tell you what it came from outer space, there are some aliens that came and planted life here on this planet. That is how desperate they are now. Nathan Jones: Richard Dawkins said that in the movie Expelled. Dr. Martin: Yeah. Dr. Reagan: And we are going to get into more about that when we talk about the impact of DNA and things of that, I tell you we have so many questions to ask you. That is why were going to have to do, I think we are going to have to do more then three programs we are probably do four programs to cover all the things. And even then there will be we will only be touching the hem of the garment that is why people have to get a copy of your book because it is rather comprehensive in nature. Well folks that is our program for this week I hope it has been a blessing to you. And I hope you will join us again next week when Dr. Martin will once again be our special guest. Next week Nathan and I plan to ask Dr. Martin a long list of questions about Creation versus Evolution. Questions I know you will find interesting because they have been sent in by you, our viewers. For example I plan to start off by asking him if Evolution is a proven fact or just a theory. I then plan to ask him what he considers to be the weakest aspect of evolutionary thought. Additionally we are going to get into a 17
discussion of the relationship between creationism and Bible prophecy. Believe it or not there is such a relationship. Nathan Jones: And, folks, please tell your friends about the program and urge them to gather their children around their TV set and computer and tune in. Our children are constantly bombarded with the lies of Evolution. Let s expose them to the truth of what the Bible has to say about our origins. Dr. Reagan: Thank you, Nathan. Folks, that s our program for this week. Until next week the Lord willing this is Dave Reagan speaking for Lamb and Lion Ministries saying, Look up be watchful for our redemption is drawing near. End of Program 18