The Axe Files - Ep. 170: Sen. Patty Murray

The Axe Files - Ep. 170: Sen. Patty Murray Released September 4, 2017 Axelrod: [00:00:00] Senator Patty Murray it's so good to be with you. You know I've had lots of folks on this podcast who even if they don't say it you get the sense that they were thinking from the time that maybe from birth that they might be a governor a senator a president of the United States. I think you probably can point to a few of your colleagues in the United States Senate who fit that description. But I am willing to bet back in the day and Bothell Washington that you are not thinking that you would one day be the number three ranking Democrat in the United States Senate. Murray: [00:00:44] Never ever occurred to me actually. Never. I mean I grew up in a big family. Seven kids didn't have a lot. My dad ran a dime store on Main Street of Bothell thousand people in the town. And my mother and dad always you know made us believe that we could achieve whatever we wanted to. But certainly politics certainly not being in the United States Senate ever occurred to me as something that I would go for and. Axelrod: [00:01:12] Talk to me a little bit about your folks. I know you say your dad ran this five and dime store I know your mom took care of you guys looked after you guys. And then he got sick. Murray: [00:01:25] Yeah. You know we were a typical family then. Well I don't know how typical they were seven kids in our family several cats and dogs and all. And I think you know we didn't have a lot. My dad had a pretty middle class probably lower middle class job rent a five and ten cent store in Bothell and I but we never a veteran of him is a veteran of the war and came home and he'd been injured. But it wasn't a big part of our lives. And my mom stayed home and raised this ass. Actually most moms did at that time and I think like a lot of people they just thought this is our life and nothing else is going to happen and we'll just plod along and and things will go OK. Well that wasn't the course that my family ran into. My dad was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis when I was 15. Axelrod: [00:02:17] Displaying symptoms. Was there a worry about him that led him to go and see a doctor. Murray: [00:02:22] You know I remember it well from the time I was an early teenager my dad would fall down very easily. I remember one time he fell down and somebody walking towards us looked at him and called him a drunk. And my dad didn't drink. And so you know as a kid you're kind of this just doesn't feel good. But it was at a time when health care was expensive for families they didn't go check it out. And so it took probably three or four years before they finally did and he got the diagnosis and M.S. is not easy to diagnose certainly wasn't then. So it took a while. And you know but that was life changing for our family. How did it change your family's life. Well my dad worked for a bit but not for very long. And he the man who owned the store that he brands told them that he just wasn't Ep. # 170 Sen. Patty Murray 1

capable of doing it anymore. So all of a sudden my family when I was a teenager and again I'm one of the older kids in my family. My sister is 13 years younger than I am so we arranged a broad range and he didn't have a job. He didn't have an income. And my mom had stayed home. She'd had a few years of college but quit to get married and didn't have any skills hadn't been working had to all of a sudden take that responsibility of seven kids taking care of my dad who was ill and making sure we were all OK. It was it was rough. Axelrod: [00:03:53] Let me ask you about the health care because you mentioned that health care was expensive did you guys have insurance. How how how did you take care of all of seven kids. Murray: [00:04:07] Well we didn't go to the doctor very often. You know we didn't even go to the doctor unless it was really bad. I mean I remember my mom falling one time and breaking her ankle. She knew it was broken but she didn't go to the doctor because they didn't have the money. And later on in my life my mom limped badly because she'd had a broken ankle at one time and didn't get it taken care of. So health care wasn't something that you know that was easily accessible or affordable especially with big family like that. And and I think that's one of the reasons today I feel like it's something families should have. You shouldn't have to give up basic health care. My my parents shouldn't have struggled. I remember when my parents were my dad of course had M.S. and we were out of the house by then but he didn't go to the doctor very often. And my mom had arthritis and then heart problems and I distinctly remember my mom saying to me one time that they were crawling to Medicare and I thought this is this isn't what my country should be about. I had a huge impact on me. Now today years later when I never expected to be thinking about it again. Axelrod: [00:05:16] Yeah I want to well in a bit we'll talk about what you're doing right now on that issue because you're going back as we speak to Washington to work on the health care issue yet again. Right. I know. But how did your mom deal with the with the burden that she suddenly had to assume. Murray: [00:05:38] Well my mom is a brave soul and I had to swallow my pride and courage and applied for welfare and food stamps. That got her by for a few months and applied for school unfortunately she got into a program at Lake Washington vocational tech school which was what it was called at the time and to get an accounting degree which would be two years. And meantime found a part time job at a another small store that she could put a little bit of food on the table. My dad was a veteran so he got a little bit of money from the V.A. and we struggled. I mean when I since the time I was early teenager I worked I worked at stores I worked part time I worked in the summer I worked Friday nights when everybody else was and so did all of my brothers and sisters because we all had to contribute. But it was tough time because you know getting welfare is not easy when you are a prideful person. And when I hear people put down people on welfare today I just think about the look in my mom's eyes when she had to go apply for that. But she needed it. Ep. # 170 Sen. Patty Murray 2

You know what that little bit of help got us back on our feet. My mom got her degree. She worked hard. We all pitched in and she got her degree got a job and was somehow able to get us all through school. All seven kids in my family went on to college and got their degrees. Axelrod: [00:07:04] Yeah. Murray: [00:07:05] Isn't it amazing that we had a country who believed in investing in people no matter who you are or what happened to you or where you come from and we all had work study programs that helped us get jobs. We all had Pell grants and student loans. And the support we needed to make it through. And I look at families today who are struggling and I think my country has to be there for you. That's that's part of our obligation as a nation and I look at those seven kids now all adults all giving back in various ways. I have four brothers from an attorney to a firefighter to Microsoft ingenious innovator and sister who is a teacher and you know and a brother who is a sportswriter. I mean we all contribute back to. Axelrod: [00:07:52] A whole community right there. Murray: [00:07:53] We have a community and a United States senator by the way. But I wouldn't be here today. They wouldn't have those jobs today if our country hadn't been a support network for a family that hit some hard times. Axelrod: [00:08:05] You you got married to your college sweetheart. And you. And you had children and you're raising your children you were working at a preschool program. Tell me tell me what happened there because your entry sort of into the world of politics is a pretty unique story. Murray: [00:08:31] Well you know I never envisioned being in politics never thought about it. There were people who made decisions and I just wasn't quite aware of it until I had a family of my own two small kids and they were enrolled in a co-op preschool program that we have here in the state of Washington that is partially subsidized by the state and the parents pay some tuition it's run through the community colleges. It was a great program. I have a college degree but I didn't know how to raise kids. So this parent education program was a great program a preschool program and a parent education program so that you could learn alongside your kids about what's best for them and how to handle situations and you know all the things that go into parenting. And one day our instructor told us that the program was going to end and I was just like why he can't do this this is this is obviously really a great program. And she said well the state legislature cut the funding. And my first question is well who are they. And it turns out they were the. Axelrod: [00:09:32] Did you even know who your legislator was. Ep. # 170 Sen. Patty Murray 3

Murray: [00:09:34] I had no idea. I mean I voted but I wasn't part of my conscious Nessus I went through life I knew there were people that made laws and things like that but I didn't really focus on it. And when she said they did this I thought oh well they just don't know what they're doing. I just need to go tell them how great a program this is and they'll turn around tomorrow and put the money in. And so I put my two kids in the car they were one and three at the time drove 100 miles to Olympia with my two kids in the back half of your capital you have been there before. Never been there before ever. And I drove and parked my car and pulled these two little kids into the capital looking for somebody to talk to say you know you've got this program you can't cut. And and I ran into people and told them my story told them about the preschool and finally I had one person say well do you really need to talk to is this one senator that is in charge of this. And I asked who he was and they told me and I went to his office I mean that OK is no different than me. I went to his office with my two kids and he kindly listened to me and then just looked right at me and said you know you can't make a difference you're just a mom in tennis shoes which I was but that's not all I was. I was someone who cared about my community and my family I cared about my country. I wanted this program and I thought that that is so wrong. Axelrod: [00:10:59] So what did you what what did you say and what did you think. I know what I would have said. Murray: [00:11:03] I was mad. I was just I mean I put my two kids back in the car and I drove home for 100 miles saying this guy is not going to get away with this. He just isn't. And I got home and I just started calling other parents whose kids had been in the program and they put me in touch with other parents and I and this was pre cell phones and pre faxes and all those things that allow communication and I just started. Axelrod: [00:11:28] For better and worse. Murray: [00:11:29] For better or worse. And people would say oh you know there's a program like this in Moses Lake or in Vancouver Tacoma I think I know a parent whose kid went here and pretty soon I had put together a list of over 13000 wives and dads whose kids had been or were enrolled in this preschool program. And I organized tree charts and got people to be in charge of different legislative districts. And we formed an organization and. Axelrod: [00:11:57] You became an organizer. By necessity. Murray: [00:11:59] I just by I think by by anger as we say they just could not get away with this because it was it was a put down to me that I can make a difference because I was a mom in tennis shoes. But it was a put down to every single person in this state by saying you don't make a difference you're not important. Well I grew up believing that everybody is important and that we all contribute in different ways. And and I I thought our voices are just as important as yours. I don't care if you're a tall guy in a dark suit with a red tie and Ep. # 170 Sen. Patty Murray 4

you look important. Or if you're just a mom and tennis shoes you have a right to have a say. And and that's what we did and we fought and you won and we won. And you know it wasn't easy but I will tell you for the next three months those state legislators did not have any hearings without a row of moms with little kids in the front staring at them and they knew it. And we held rallies in Olympia with our kids and finally they overturned the procedure and reinstated the money. Axelrod: [00:13:02] You know that story reminds me I had a client years ago. You may have met John Street who is the mayor of Philadelphia. But John started off as a housing rights organizer in North Philly and he was leading a protest at City Hall and he was trying to talk to a member of the city council and as he was being carried out by the police the councilman. So you want to talk to me you get elected to the city council. And so John ran and if he ran against that guy or not. Or one of his allies but he ran and won. And and that's what prompted him to run for the city council some organizing by anger organizing my anger in organizing by understanding what a democracy is this isn't of them what you just described is really democracy at its best you know we saw a little of that it seems to me on the health care issue over this past period of time when your colleagues on the Republican side there were trying to repeal the Affordable Care Act it seems to me and you would know better than I because you talk to all those folks all the time that all of those people who showed up at town hall meetings had a profound impact on me. Murray: [00:14:16] Absolutely. And you know it wasn't that they just went to those town halls and say I said Don't vote this way. They told their personal stories. This is why this is important to me. This is what the impact will be. They made it real they made it about America. That's why it was so powerful. It was who we are our families our stories what we care about what we believe in and they told very personal stories many of them courageously told personal stories and it had an impact. I mean there's been so many parallels between this year and what I feel like I did many years ago that got me started in politics because when you're not paying attention. Things happen to you but when you're paying attention and you go out and you get involved and you talk about what's important and what's real and tell a story that's what changes the policies in this country that made a difference for me then and it made a difference in health care this year. And I'm I'm just delighted because that's what I think our forefathers wanted. Axelrod: [00:15:19] Yeah. You know I skipped over one part of your bio that I think is really meaning meaningful and important and and that is the time you spent working at a V.A. hospital here in Seattle and in a mental health unit at a psych ward essentially. That's right. Talk a little bit about that. Murray: [00:15:45] So this is important for a number of reasons. People often say what what what what do I do right now if I want to run for office. And I think the question should be What have you done that's made an impact an impression on you that makes you want to run for office. And what I did. Ep. # 170 Sen. Patty Murray 5

Axelrod: [00:16:05] That's just so important because the question I always use to ask people when they come to me and say I want to run for something I always would say why. Why do you want to run. And if they couldn't answer that question my advice was always I don't think you should. Murray: [00:16:21] Exactly. Well my what happened to me at the V.A. was part of my life story that I never thought well this is going to get me into politics. But it's part that now that I am in politics I think about every day because I was in college during the Vietnam War and many people I knew were going to war a very unpopular war and unpopular when they came home. They were put down. Axelrod: [00:16:45] [crosstalk] really dark period of history because the the those who served bore the brunt of the policy public anger about the policy. Murray: [00:16:58] Yeah. So I was in college. And and I volunteered to do my senior work at the Seattle V.A. because I just felt like I need to to see what is happening to these people that everybody's protesting. The real people and I worked on the psychiatric ward and it was powerful I mean I was dealing with young men and women my age coming home from Vietnam. Mental health problems that had no names at the time we didn't have PTSD we didn't have the kinds of research we had. Axelrod: [00:17:34] And we just didn't know what was. Murray: [00:17:35] Right and they were being put down for being veterans. And every one of these young people had such an impression on me that they had chosen or were sent to a war fought for our country came home and our country should have been there for them. They shouldn't have been on a locked ward. They shouldn't have been told they weren't important. We should be doing everything we can for them and that had a huge impression on me because I saw a lot of people who didn't go to war who were lucky that they didn't have to go to war and they needed to be participating and taking care of the people that chose to go. Axelrod: [00:18:09] One thing I wanted to thank you for was you know I have a life alone or an adult lifelong relationship with epilepsy because I have a daughter who was born with it or nearly born with it seven months old. My wife started a research foundation called Cure's horizons you know research in epilepsy and you were involved in starting these epilepsy centers around the country to research epilepsy work on epilepsy on the epilepsy issue. It's important relative to these veterans because traumatic brain injuries are the leading cause of epilepsy and I think one of the signature injuries of these two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are sadly traumatic brain injury. And so we're going to see a lot of these cases. So you you helped another or other generations future generations of veterans. By doing that. But on the mental health issue. What did you learn from that experience. Ep. # 170 Sen. Patty Murray 6

Murray: [00:19:21] Well I learned that these were not somebody else. These were real people. And they all had personal stories and many of them felt really alone and couldn't deal with what was going on with them. And we didn't have a lot of research at the time that was really applied to mental health. And years later when I was in the Senate I never knew when I was working at the V.A. I would ever be in a position to actually do things like this. It was right after the Gulf War that I went into the Senate and I had noticed how many people were really being left behind. If you have a physical wounds of war you have a greater chance of someone saying thank you for your service what can I do. A business saying what can we do to help you. Then the mental health. But it is just as real just as critical is curable and these people have as much right to the kind of care that everyone else does. So it's just been a passion of mine to make sure that they get the help and support that they need. Axelrod: [00:20:22] Why do you think there's been such a spike in suicide rates among among veterans. Murray: [00:20:30] I think that a lot of them come home and feel like their lives have changed so dramatically. Their peer group that they left went off and went to college and are working in some high tech company. They went off and served our country and they came home to a world that doesn't understand what they went through and they don't find a place for themselves. We have to work to make sure they have that place. The error that we made in Vietnam should not be repeated now where people come home not spit on this time. We do a much better job of saying thank you. But they still don't feel like we understand what they went through and are really grateful for it. Not just grateful like you know thank you but really making sure that they have the support they need to reintegrate in a good way. Axelrod: [00:21:17] It is striking how different it is from the Vietnam era you know now you go to a ballgame and at every ballgame some veterans is honored and the crowd stands up as one and cheers for them but you also have a homeless population many of whom are sadly veterans who people walk around step over. Some of them from our Vietnam era veterans but we got a lot of we have a lot of work to do. I have to take a brief break and I'll be right back with Patty Murray So let's get back to your story. You had this great success. You turned away the the lunkhead who made the remark about the moms in tennis shoes and you you obviously got a sense of empowerment from that and you decided to run for the local school board. Murray: [00:22:20] Yeah. Well I I learned a really important lesson from that. You can sit at home and gripe about what happened to you or what happened to people around you or you can go out and find other people who feel passionate and work with them and change policies you don't agree with. And I found that I liked that path much better than yelling at the television or griping about it because I care about my neighborhood and my community Ep. # 170 Sen. Patty Murray 7

and my state in my country I want it to be a better place. And I found that you can make it a better place. You have to work hard. You've got to bring a lot of people together and it isn't easy. But you know that's how you make a difference and that's what's important. And that's really what got me into politics. So when I after I got involved in that my kids happened to be starting school at the time and I thought well who's making the decisions here. I saw what happened in the state legislature and I went to a school board meeting all nice people but none of them had kids in school. And I thought about who is speaking for me here who understands what moms and dads are going through today. They're nice. But who is that real who can sit at that board meeting and say this is what's happening. And so I decided to run and run for the school board and and ran against a really nice gentleman he ran in districts where we ran just as school wide school district the whole district and I just started knocking on doors and talking to people and learning how to raise money the hard way by asking for it. We actually the first fundraiser I ever did you'll appreciate this. I told my husband I just can't ask people for money or to run for office because the people I have money to give. So we held that garage sale and lost money because we ended up giving things away to people who needed it. So I realized that this was not going to work. We actually had to ask people to invest in you and. Axelrod: [00:24:12] That's a hard adjustment Murray: [00:24:16] But we worked hard and then sadly just a few months before the election the gentleman that I was running against found out that he had a terminal disease and wasn't going to live long. So I stepped back from running against him ended up losing by 300 votes. And shortly after the election he passed away and I was appointed to a seat because the school board members felt that I should replace him which was really great. So that really started my political movement I lost and I won by by losing but. Axelrod: [00:24:49] By showing basic human decency. Murray: [00:24:51] I think that's part of it. Yeah. And I I loved it. I loved being part of the process and being involved in the decisions. But I kept running into the state legislature that was making decisions that weren't supportive of schools. So I remember distinctly going down to Olympia one day as a school board member and looking down at the state senate and thinking oh my god they're all bald heads. Murray: [00:25:15] There isn't there's nobody like me [crosstalk] Murray: [00:25:19] But when the entire state senate looks like that then you say who's speaking for me who's my voice who understands what's happening. And I think they need to hear a different kind of voice here. And I. And now so I was running against an incumbent who'd been there for 15 years and everybody told me there's no way you're going to beat him. And I ended up beating him because I worked hard. Ep. # 170 Sen. Patty Murray 8

Axelrod: [00:25:38] And similarly you kind of you had sort of one of those moments when you decided to run for the U.S. Senate. Explain that. Murray: [00:25:51] Well I after winning the state senate seat I loved being involved in the policy decisions and working issues through. I never dreamed that you know I'd go on from there. But I came home one weekend and watched the Clarence Thomas hearings on TV and I just was stunned that this was my United States Senate. These were the people representing me. And I remember saying to some friends there's nobody there saying what I would say and I said that night I'm going to have to run for the Senate because they need somebody to say what I would say and nobody thought I had a chance. I mean obviously. Axelrod: [00:26:29] Because you're running against an incumbent. Murray: [00:26:33] That's correct. Axelrod: [00:26:33] Now was there anybody even did you have to go through a primary or were they just happy to have a candidate. Murray: [00:26:40] No. There was a primary there was several candidates and it conked a congressman a former state senator and a number of people in the primary. But you know I I ran by working hard by including people in my campaign no one gave me a chance. In March of election year running for the United States Senate they did a poll and I was at 3 percent. I wasn't dissuaded. I knocked on doors. I called up all those moms and dads I'd met fighting for preschool programs years before and I asked them to hold the coffee for me in their community just to talk to their friends and neighbors and I think we stunned everybody when I won the primary. But but I think a lot of people felt like I did they had watched the Clarence Thomas hearings and they really felt like the United States Senate was not a representative of the entire country when it was missing voices like women. Axelrod: [00:27:37] You know that was I was in I'm from Chicago obviously Carol Moseley Braun ran that year much much the same reason and ended up and ended up winning. But when you guys arrived there how many women were actually in the Senate before we won. Murray: [00:27:56] In 1992 there were two women. When we won we made it all the way to six women in the Senate. Axelrod: [00:28:03] What was that like. I guess you had had a little bit of an orientation but you had all those bald headed guys in Washington State senate. Murray: [00:28:09] [crosstalk] I think there was because there was such attention on women running that year that we were actually given a real opportunity. I think many of the men in the Senate who never had to work with women in the Senate before were a little afraid of us. Are we going to be bomb throwers. And I think we proved ourselves. We sat Ep. # 170 Sen. Patty Murray 9

down and we were just like they did. We fought for our states. We did our homework. We knew the issues. And I think I remember something that I I think made a real difference when I was one of the first debates we had in the Senate when I was elected was on family leave. And Ted Kennedy was running the debate and there was a lot of you know numbers and you know the kinds of discussions that most men like to have with charts and graphs. And I came out on the floor of the Senate and I told the story of a friend of mine who had lost her job because her son had been diagnosed with leukemia and was given only a few months to live and her boss actually said to her you're going to have to choose between being with your son or being at work. So I told that personal story of why we need family leave and why it was so important to me. And I remember distinctly walking off the Senate floor and I had only been there a few months. And one of the male senators said to me we don't tell personal stories here. And I just said wait a minute how do you pass policies that work if there aren't real stories that are attached to it. And he came to me years later and he said you know you really he really made me change my mind. Axelrod: [00:29:47] You worked on this issue didn't you in the state legislature. Murray: [00:29:50] Yeah it was one of the bills that I passed in our state legislature because of that same woman I just told you about had a real impact on me and and I fought very hard in our state senate and got our first family leave Bill passed so it was stunning to me to come back to the United States Senate and the first bill we worked on with Ted Kennedy running the bill and passed the first national family leave. Axelrod: [00:30:13] What is it about. I mean first of all let me just say on my own behalf that I hate charts and graphs so I must be in touch with my feminine side. I like stories better. But tell me what now you have 20 women in the Senate. Tell me what a difference that has made. And how do you see. You say we we do just what everybody else does. We represent our states and so on. Are there qualities that the women who have come to the Senate have brought. Making gross generalizations that have changed the nature of the Senate. Murray: [00:30:54] I absolutely believe that first of all I think women come to politics to solve problems. And I think as you do and aren't as enamored with the well let's have a big debate somebody wins somebody loses and we all get to go home and do this again next year. We don't have time for that. We've got to get home take care of our kids and our families and we can't we really come to solve problems so I think we are better collaborators. I'm talking about today maybe 50 years from now it could be different. But I think women in politics tend to listen find solutions and then work to get that done. And I've seen it many times. Axelrod: [00:31:34] Now the women in the Senate. You gather. Is that right. Murray: [00:31:38] I do. Ep. # 170 Sen. Patty Murray 10

Axelrod: [00:31:39] On a regular basis weekly basis or something. Murray: [00:31:42] Yeah we do. We've been doing that since [crosstalk] Republicans and Democrats. And it's such an important part of our lives because when I came in 1992 US Senator Barbara Mikulski one of my heroes said you know there isn't any playbook for how we do this. So I think that it would be helpful for us to get together and we all agreed. All six of us that we had a really important role. We needed to show women that they could do this job. And you can't not be supportive of each other because if any one of us failed then we would all have failed. So we set up monthly dinners that we all came together and we had two rules you could talk about anything but you can't tell anybody what you talked about. And it served us all these things. Axelrod: [00:32:30] There go my next five questions [laughter]. Murray: [00:32:33] Well it's you know it's it's a great way to get to know people to talk about the issues to talk about the personal things that are often get lost and in these really stressful times and to really understand and know people about what makes them tick what's important to them what what's what's their family like what what are their worries and concerns personally because then I think you can work with them better to find solutions. Axelrod: [00:32:59] Has it translated into you suggests that with the way you ended that last thought and has it translated into tangible things that you can think of that would not have happened otherwise. Murray: [00:33:13] It's hard to say it wouldn't have happened otherwise but I do know. [00:33:16] We just had a healthcare debate in the country two women and a very large role that played a huge role Axelrod: [00:33:23] COLLINS And Murkowski. Murray: [00:33:25] And I think that they were able to talk with all of all of the women senators about some of the things they cared about and what was important to them. I know what was important to them because they were telling us what was important to them. Yet they were shut out of the room the Republican senators put 13 men in a room and said go figure out how to replace Obamacare. Axelrod: [00:33:46] Let me ask you about that because just I'm asking you now like a political person a political person. What what what kind of strategy is that too. I mean what are the optics of that. I was sort of stunned by it. Ep. # 170 Sen. Patty Murray 11

Murray: [00:34:02] I was completely stunned. I think women Republican senators were stunned and I think mostly. Axelrod: [00:34:08] They were excluded because the leader didn't think that they would be cooperative on the issue? Murray: [00:34:13] I think the leader knew exactly what they wanted. Both Lisa and Susan made it very clear that they would not support a repeal of Obamacare. That took away the funding for Planned Parenthood and millions of women in this country to get access to care they needed. And I think Mitch thought if he put them in the room that they would not be willing to go down a path that he wanted to go now. Axelrod: [00:34:37] You've done very well more than most in a very rancorous partisan environment working with Republican colleagues and particularly Senator Alexander who you're the ranking member on the health education labor and pensions. Murray: [00:35:00] [crosstalk] health education labor and pensions pensions added because it made for better acronyms and more I think of all of those pensions is probably one we should be talking about a whole lot more. Axelrod: [00:35:13] Yeah yeah. And you were together on the No Child Left Behind you also worked with Speaker Ryan famously and came to a budget agreement. Talk to me about that process. And and those two and what it is about your relationship that allowed you to do what has thwarted so many people in Washington which is to find common ground. Murray: [00:35:44] Well let me talk about the budget deal with Paul Ryan because that remember came about because we had been going through chaos in our country over budget shutdowns and agreements that couldn't happen and nobody was talking to anybody. The government had been shut down for several weeks and it was just people were feeling like their country wasn't working. And we agreed to open government again and voted to have the two budget chairs the House and Senate sit down and see if they could figure this out. That happened to be me. And Paul Ryan and I remember voting for it and thinking oh boy. OK. So I called Paul actually the next morning and right away and said let's let's sit down have breakfast and we did and we did not talk about budget numbers policies or anything. We took the time to learn who the other person was and what was important to them. And that basic respect and trust served us well throughout the entire difficult challenging process and allowed us to put together a budget agreement when no one else could. I think that word respect needs to be returned to politics today. Axelrod: [00:36:58] Where do you think he is right now. Ryan it seems like he is sort of buffeted. I mean he was chairman of the Budget Committee then and now he's speaker of Ep. # 170 Sen. Patty Murray 12

the house. And that is like the Rocky shoals of legislating. All right John Boehner and others can speak to how how does Paul Ryan navigate the situation that he's in. Murray: [00:37:31] You know I do not envy him his current position. He is trying to run a house of representatives with a group of Republicans who only vote is no. And when you're in the majority you actually have to pass things so you need people to say yes whether it's a budget or appropriations or policies whatever it is. And it's I think it's extremely challenging. I think he has the capability to listen which is so important. But I think he has a challenging job trying to bring those people together to move things forward. And you know I wish him the best of luck. You know I I I do not agree with Paul Ryan on many policies whether it's women's right to choose or whether it's Medicare policy and how he wants to restructure it. And you know numerous things. But I do respect the man and I do want him to be successful. Why. Because I love my country to be successful. Axelrod: [00:38:28] Let me ask you he the president apparently. And will we'll know in a matter of hours I guess is going to punt the DACA program for the children of undocumented immigrants to the to the Congress and and essentially say we're going to end this program in six months. But if Congress wants to do something about it they can't. Paul Ryan has urged him not to end the program and clearly is supportive of it. Can can you the House and Senate agree on this do you think there's enough support based on what you've seen and what you've heard from your colleagues to make permanent this exemption for the children of undocumented immigrants. Murray: [00:39:22] Here's what my advice to Paul Ryan is: follow your heart. He knows what's right to do here. He knows the impact this will have to children and families in our country. Some 800000 young people who came here know no other country know no other language no no other family or home. And to tell them sorry and I think that if he follows his heart and tells his Republican caucus those of you who can't vote with this fine. But we're going to bring it to the floor and we're going to vote on it. He will get the votes for it. Axelrod: [00:39:55] Yeah. Because one of the obstacles in the past is the so-called Hastert rule this notion that you have to have a majority of the majority in order to move a bill forward. A lot of things including a health care fix for the Affordable Care Act could have moved forward had Democrats been involved in that vote. Well what about on your side. Do you think that I saw Orrin Hatch and some other Republican. Murray: [00:40:26] Hatch had told the president not to go forward with this policy. I think others and I know that if they bring it up for them for a vote that we will be able to permanently pass the policy. This is going to take leadership. You know what Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell's problem is not the votes on this. It's the leadership. You have to be willing to say this is what's right for my country rather than I'm worried if I bring this up that I'll get voted out of my leadership position. People want leaders. They want people to speak from their heart. They want them to do the right thing. They don't want them to play Ep. # 170 Sen. Patty Murray 13

politics. And I think we've got the votes. If we have two leaders who are bringing up what did you think of the president's. Assuming this is the president's decision and where I think it's appalling I think it's stunning to me. Truly I have met so many young people who are contributing so much to our country. Axelrod: [00:41:25] But let let me ask you this. Wouldn't it be better. When President Obama moved forward on DACA. He said this is a temporary patch because we need the Congress to act. And and you and others voted to do that some years ago. Wouldn't it be better if Congress actually went ahead and did that. Murray: [00:41:51] I think would be the right thing for Congress to do. But I am appalled that the president is using this as some kind of wedge issue campaign promise to his voters to get done rather than for the right reasons. He could have said or may say I think this is the right policy. I told you that I'm you know my heart says it's the right thing to say and do. But I want Congress to act and I would like them to act and show the country they're behind that. But to bully Congress to do it some kind of threat is really just the wrong way to do it. Axelrod: [00:42:28] Well by the time this podcast is heard we will know the answer to that question but the president will not have heard you. So if he does what you said will have to give him credit for arriving on his own. I will say that we're going to take a short break and we'll be right back with Senator Patty Murray So I mentioned earlier that you're working with Senator Alexander on the health care issue and specifically the issue of health care exchanges. The the Senate on the vote of three Republicans and all the Democrats rejected the repeal and replace approach that was being advanced. But it does leave open what happens to these health care exchanges which rely on the subsidies that are part of the Affordable Care Act and all over the country we see we see these premiums going up. I saw one estimate that in your state they're going up some 23 percent or something in about half of it is attributed to anxiety on the part of the insurance companies that the Trump administration won't move forward on these subsidies What does the state of play on this and what do you and Senator Alexander hope to do. Murray: [00:43:50] Well first of all let me just say that yes we defeated the repeal effort in the Senate by three votes but it was really defeated by the hundreds of thousands of Americans who stood up and fought against an irresponsible bill. So I give them credit. Yes. But what we have said all along when we passed Obamacare many years ago that this was the first step. And we needed to continue to make sure that health care was affordable and accessible and to continue to find ways to do that. President Trump has taken a very different approach. He came into office to repeal Obamacare. Not sure why other than he liked the words repeal Obamacare. Axelrod: [00:44:31] Well it's very popular with his base. Ep. # 170 Sen. Patty Murray 14

Murray: [00:44:33] Yeah. OK so it was a campaign promise not a policy. And without any meaning behind the words and since he felt so passionate about that he has used his office and his and his administration to actually sabotage Obamacare by threatening not to make the payments that are required to be made to insurance companies that help them pay for some of the sicker folks who are who have health care. Therefore insurance companies are saying we're going to have to raise our rates because we don't know what's going to happen and they can't operate on uncertainty. They can't operate by a president who is threatening not to subsidize or make the CSR payments because they have to look at their bottom line and say well go under if he pulls out from paying these. So they are now raising their rates across the country. We're also seeing a number of what were called Bear counties where insurance companies were not offering again. Uncertainty is most often named as the reason for that. So what I have told Lamar Alexander and I think many Republicans and Democrats agree is that we need to bring some stability to the marketplace so that we can make sure that we are working as hard as we can to lower the costs for people to be able to purchase insurance. Lamar and I have been talking over the last several weeks. We're going to start having hearings next week assuring that those CSR payments are mandatory that the administration can't just decide not to pay them is certainly part of that. Axelrod: [00:46:09] One and do you have a confidence that Senator McConnell if you if your committee moves on that that Senator McConnell will will take it up on the floor. Murray: [00:46:21] Well I've had the opportunity to work with Lamar Alexander before he and I took on the challenge of rewriting No Child Left Behind when no one else could come up with a solution. And I think we have a respect for each other in understanding that we have to work together and we have to. Obviously neither one of us are going to love something at the end of the day. But we have to work through a policy. And then of course we have to work through the votes. Do I know what McConnell will do with it. Will he say yes to Lamar. I am hoping he will because I think the people of this country not only rejected repeal and replace. They said we want you to work together to solve the problems that are there in health care. I think Lamar recognizes that and I'm going into this discussion and challenge with him with respect. Axelrod: [00:47:08] You know it's an interesting point you make which is that at the end of the day neither of you will love the final product. That was true on your budget deal with Ryan and you took some heat. And and so did Ryan from the bases of your respective parties. It's called compromise. It's not very it's not very fashionable right now. Murray: [00:47:33] It is not fashionable but it is needed. It needs to be respected. We are a democracy we are a country of a lot of different ideas. No one gets their way. A hundred percent of the time. But if you keep in mind that the goal is to make things better not to make it perfect. That's what has sustained us as a democracy for a very long time. And Ep. # 170 Sen. Patty Murray 15

that's my job as a senator is to sustain that movement forward. I fight for what I believe in. But at the end of the day try and make it just a little better. Axelrod: [00:48:09] I thoroughly embrace what you just said. But I think that in moments of absolute candor that many of your colleagues on both sides of the aisle and certainly in the House of Representatives would say yes but my first obligation is to get reelected so that I can do those things and I've got this rabid base. So there's only so so much I can do. I mean it seems like you but up against that now more than ever and it's a destructive impulse. It feels like. Murray: [00:48:41] The rabid base is important because they're fighting for basic policies that they want you have to include them you have to listen to them. You have to say what is their goal and fight for a goal. But you can't achieve 100 percent. And if we all just sit in our corners and fight with each other and say you know my way or the highway we go nowhere as a country and what we do is leave ourselves behind in a global economy. Axelrod: [00:49:07] Another issue that apparently is going to come up or that the administration suggests they want to come up and Senator McConnell and Speaker Ryan is tax reform not exactly clear whether it's going to be reform or simply tax cuts. But what's your sense of the likelihood of tax reform actually happening and will it be reform. Murray: [00:49:32] So let's start with the basic process of this. If the Republicans move forward in the same way that they did to repeal Obamacare vote for a budget that says we don't want any Democrats at the table we're going to do this by ourselves and leave half the Senate out of the conversation. They're going to have a hard time getting the votes and they have a hard time having the public behind him. If they say we want to include Democrats here your idea is you're not going to get everything but actually listen to what we're talking about which is not just tax cuts for wealthy but actual tax reform that means middle class families who've had wages that have been stagnant for decades actually have an opportunity to get ahead. They'll find us willing to work with them and maybe pass something but the words tax reform should not be a mislabel of a tax cut for the wealthiest Americans and some hope that things are going to trickle down and life will be better for people who are fighting so hard today to take care of their families. Axelrod: [00:50:36] There really hasn't been a genuine tax reform in this country for 30 years and the last time it was done it was done by in the classic way broadening the base and eliminating loopholes. Is that given the Army the phalanx of lobbyists that patrol your precincts over there. Is that is that possible today. Murray: [00:51:05] Well you know I remember my dad saying to me when I was 16 and I learned to drive. He said with the keys comes the responsibility. Well that's where the Republican Party is today they got the keys. They have the White House they have the majorities in the House and Senate. What is the responsibility they want to take on. Do they Ep. # 170 Sen. Patty Murray 16

want to jam through a partisan bill that gives tax breaks to corporations and multibillionaires. Or do they really want to reform the tax code. I think that's a huge question right now. I am worried. It's not what I want to see happen and I think the American people will fight back against it. Axelrod: [00:51:44] By jamming it through. It would be part of a budget reconciliation. Would you explain that. Murray: [00:51:51] So what so going back to the repeal of Obamacare what the Republicans did on the very first days we were in session in January as they passed what's called the budget reconciliation bill that uses an obscure process that allows them to pass something in the Senate with only 50 votes so it can't be filibustered. So it doesn't need any Democrats. And they made it very clear we're not going to have hearings. We're not going to have any discussions we're not going to you know figure out what's out there we're not going to listen to people. We're just going to write this in secret 13 men. That didn't work. Now if they do that same thing. Use a budget reconciliation process to pass a budget and go through the same thing without any hearings discussion bringing experts in having everybody understand what this is going to be like at the end of the day it's it's not going to be successful. Axelrod: [00:52:40] What do you think the the odds are of this happening and this happening this year. Murray: [00:52:48] Look I'd love to see tax reform that allowed American families to feel like they were going to be able to grow their wages again. That's a hard chore in a time when we have real challenges. Today it's even worse when we have a Republican Party who says wait we're just going to give tax breaks away to wealthy people and it's going to somehow trickle down to you and we're going to use obscure budget president says that he wants a big middle class tax cut. As harsh words words there are important policy is real and I'll tell you right now let's just back up a minute. He's talking about tax reform using some kind of obscure budget numbers to reconcile that. What he's got is not going to be a big cost to our deficit and debt at the same time we have North Korea we have a country that is where people who voted for him want to know they've got the skills for the jobs in their communities where we have a huge disaster in Texas today that is obviously going to cost billions of dollars. How does how do you reconcile giving big tax breaks to people with those outstanding costs out there. Axelrod: [00:54:01] You mentioned the storm hurricane Harvey in the aftermath of that. There's talk that they may try and attach hurricane relief to the debt ceiling bill would that be a smart thing to do. Murray: [00:54:16] Well both of them need to be done. Ep. # 170 Sen. Patty Murray 17