Minnesota Historical Society

400z 1 TAPEjl Interview with 40 oz Mankato Eastside Bloods 18 year old Euro-American Interviewed by Kate Cavett Interviewed on January 12, 1997 at Woodbury Treatment Programs.01 It's Sunday, January 12, 1997. We're sitting in Woodbury Treatment Programs. I just asked you to sign a release but I just wanted to confirm on tape that you understand that we're going to talk about your experiences related to the gang. That we'll use your story, possibly we'll use some of the audio from it or we may use it in print for various educational purposes. From articles to books to presentations, possibly some media presentations to help educate about gangs and help people understand that kids are in gangs. Is this okay with you? 40oz: Yep. First thing I am going to ask you to do is introduce yourself to me with your name and a name that I can use when I use your stories. I always ask people to give me another name. 40oz:, and the name you can use is 40 ounces. That's like my street name when I was out there. Is that a safe name to use? 40oz: Yeah. How old were you when you first became aware of gangs. 40oz: Probably about 5th, 6th grade. I was in grade school. I was in a little gang then, just some of my friends, In 6th grade we saw a movie called "The Warriors" so we mocked that, tried to imitate them. Back then we were kind of in a gang but we didn't do any of the violent stuff We just did graffiti and beat up some kids in school, nothing real serious. Where was this? 40oz: Franklin Elementary School, it's just right across the street from my house in Mankato. When would you say that you became more than playacting with gangs? 40oz: Probably about 9th grade. Well, 8th grade when I started drinking and stuff. My friend introduces me to this gang, it was GDs and I just kind of wanted to be like them. I was never in it or anything. When he got sent away I started hanging around with this Cambodian kid who had moved here from, he was from Cambodia then he went to Boston then to Long Beach then he ended up at our school and then I started, well, all my friends started hanging around with him and I started hanging around him. He was a Blood, and so about 9th grade is when I started getting in with them. 1.31 What was it like? Tell me your story. COPYRIGHT: HAND in HAND, Post Office Box 65522, Saint Paul, MN 55165 == 612-227 -5997

2.55 400z 2 Urn, I don't know, it just, it was just an attention thing for me. Like my name just it, my name was like a lot to me. But the thing is in 9th grade, I did anything to like uphold that like, you know, something I could be identified with. And that's something I didn't get at home when I was younger because my dad was like, gave a lot of attention to my brother and then my mom did day care. So she gave a lot of attention to them so I didn't get much attention. So, when I got that name I was kind oflike, you know, all right so I had to drink a lot you know to keep that name, and then urn, that just kind of evolved, when I started hanging around my friends they all started calling me that and then when I started hanging around the Bloods, at first I started hanging around them but I didn't want to get in them. It was me and my other, me and my good friend Brian. We, we hung out with them, there's two, there's two sets, there's urn, Eastside Bloods and there's 507 Bloods. And the 507 were kind of the older ones and they went to like West High School, and urn, the Eastside were the ones who went to East and they're, they're like around my age or a year younger. And umw I don't know, we just hung around them for, both sets for awhile and then urn 507 got more and more interested in me, and wanted, kept wanted to jump me in and stuff but I didn't want to because I really didn't want to get into gangs and I just, I wanted to hang around them but I didn't want, like the full effects of it you know, the consequences of having other people after me, but, as they, the end of 9th grade I started really hanging out with them more, I started going out with them more, beating people up with them, I was using with them and urn, I saw how easy it was to get attention from them all you got to do is go out there and act crazy and beat someone up with like, like a lead pipe or beat them up with, break a bottle over their head, someone's head and then they'll all be all excited and you know, just think your all cool and stuff so, that's when I started hanging out with them more. And then I think it was 10th grade I was, or over the summer of 9th grade, or it was in 10th grade I started, I was really hanging out with them and then everyone in the community started identifying me as a blood so I just kind of said all right then. If you guys want to consider me a blood I'm going to start doing that stuff. So I started wearing the rag, started getting all red clothes, and you know started writing the graffiti all over, and you know I was basically a blood then. I never got jumped in or nothing, but it was just kind of by process of everybody, everyone in the community just saying you know your a Blood because you hang out with them. So I you know I was like fine then, I am. Urn. Did you have any initiation that you had to do? No, not really. Just had to hang out with them and just do crazy things and they just saw, saw what I was like and they liked what they had seen in me, so. What were the kinds of the crazy things you had to do? Just, like if anyone was getting in a fight, I had to hit him with what ever was around. Like I beat this guy with a lead pipe, it was like, I don't know, like that long, about two feet or so. And it was, I don't know, I found it in my room. And ugh, I carried it around with me all the time. And my friend was getting in a fight so I just came up and hit him from behind, and that's, you know that kind of things. I don't know really, just like beating COPYRIGHT: HAND in HAND, Post Office Box 65522, Saint Paul, MN 55165 === 612-227-5997

400z 3 people up is basically it. I mean we didn't really break into stuff, stores or stuff. We'd steal from stores but we never really break into houses really until I got into 11 th grade I think. 3.25 So your initiation kind of was proving yourself by doing violent acts. Yeah. What was the cultural or racial make up of your group? Most of us are white and Cambodians as I, I started, getting more involved it was more Cambodians because my friend was Cambodian so I got introduced to his cousins and stuff from St. Paul. So but most of the ones around my area were all white, except for that one Cambodian. How many were in the gang? Ugh, I don't know. I'd say, my, my set, Eastside, about 20 to 25. And urn, 507 I have no idea. Probably 20,25 of them. Did the Eastside and the 507 because of geographic differences or did you compete against each other? No we didn't compete really urn. We did most of the work for Bloods urn, Eastside did. We did, we did more of the beatings, more of the graffiti, more of the, we were more loud as we'd call it you know. 507 just kind oflaid low. They're the older ones. They're like twenties and stuff They just, they just laid low and, they hung out with like the Crips too and I couldn't under, I never understood that but. They're just kind of whatever, they're just Bloods, the didn't do much but, they, they did some violent acts and sold a lot of drugs. That's something we did a lot too was sell drugs. That's where we got our money. 4.15 Define loud for me. Oh, like just act, we did most of the acting out. We'd urn, like spray paint, doing the graffiti around town urn. Like doing all the violent acts to like. You know, just making ourselves more known. Doing the, more things that make you known that's, that's what loud is, being more loud. What was the age range of the Eastside? Fourteen to eighteen, I'd say. There was only like one eighteen year old. Did you participate in initiating some other people? Mmm, in a way. The eighteen year old I'd, we'd punk him around or beat him up every once in awhile. But never the actual jumping in of someone. I didn't, I never did that. Was there an initiation process for the Eastside Bloods? Yeah, yeah there was. What was it? Beaten in. You get beat in. Can you tell me exactly what you mean by that? Well, like two or three of us that were already in would beat you in. You'd just fight for five, six minutes. you know, you just fight with each other. And then when you et back up COPYRIGHT: HAND in HAND, Post Office Box 65522, Saint Paul, MN 55165 === 612-227 -5997

400z 4 you all hug and you know tell each other that you love, your in, we love you this and that. But it first started with Tony the Cambodian. He, it was just him one on one with them and since he was kind of older and bigger and, he'd just take on one person, he'd beat them up and he was in his gang that he just kind of started. And then so as they got more members it was a little bit more organized. But usually it was just two on one, three on one to jump you in. 5.10 Could people fight back or did they just have to stand there? Oh, they fought back, yeah. Not a lot of them did after like the first minute. The couldn't really, do whole lot because there's two people, two or three people beating on you but. Usually they, you know, you can fight back if you, if your able. Did you ever hospitalize anybody? Yeah, urn. In jumping someone in you mean? No I didn't because I never jumped anyone In. Anyone in your set? Not my set, in 507 urn, two of them did. The two that were most interested in me, the ones I hung out with the most, they both got hospitalized. But I don't think, I don't remember anyone from our set getting hospitalized. Why were they hospitalized? Urn, Ryan, had like, his eye was really messed up and, chipped his teeth. And urn, Nick, he's a Mexican, he and urn, his lip was split open and he had like three stitches in his upper lip. He still gots a scar from that. That's from his initiation? Yep. From getting jumped in. 5.47 Did you have girls in your set? Yeah, we had urn, we had a few girls, one, only one got jumped in. What was the initiation for girls? Just jumped her in. All the other girls they just hang out with us and if they do stuff for us you know like, you know whatever, beat up other girls or do graffiti or steal stuff for us, get us money then they you know we just say, let them hang out with us and let them say they're a part of us. But only one girl was actually jumped in. She was just, just Tony jumped her in. Tony is the Cambodian? Where's Tony from? Cambodia. He's the Cambodian refugee. And urn, but he got sent away urn half way through my 10th grade year. Because he had done a drive-by on one of my friends. Well, he was kind of my friend. He was this black guy from Chicago. He said he was from GD folks and urn, he was with Tony's girl friend the night before so he drove by with a shotgun, shot out his windows and stuff, and got sent to Red Wing for it. So who ran the gang? 6.24 Well it went, officially it was Mike Knolls. And urn, he was officially appointed it but urn COPYRIGHT: HAND in HAND, Post Office Box 65522, Saint Paul, MN 55165 == 612-227 -5997

7.11 400z 5 after I got more involved in it I kind of did. People looked to me as the leader but no one really said I was because Mike was appointed leader but. From the community and everyone else, they all looked at me as the leader because I took control, I was the one that was doing the stuff I was like, you know I, I brought everyone together, me and my other friend Chris Dobmier, were both looked at as the leaders. What kind of things did you do as leaders? Nothing, just we'd tell people what to do urn. We'd get people like, new recruits like, like Luke the one that was here, urn. See my little friend Jeremy he was, who was a Blood. We'd start, we'd call him like you know a prospector you know, some new recruit or whatever. When they'd bring them around we'd start seeing what they can do for us. Urn, once the started hanging around with like one of the younger kids they'd bring them to us, see what we think of them, and then I, I'd have them go do some stufflike steal stufffrom the store and we'd bring it back, I'd use my ill and bring it back and get money. See what kinds of drugs he could sell, who, who he could sell it to, or who he could set us up to so we could rip them off, so. We'd just kind of see the new recruits, see who they are and then okay it for them to be jumped in. So you never had to jump anybody in. You could just set it up and assign other people to do it. Yep. Did you have a certain number you wanted to bring in on a regular basis? No, no it was nothing organized. It was just people that, friends of a friend's you know. The just start bringing them in and they start doing stuff for us and you know depends on how we like them you know. Size has a lot to do with it or when we didn't have cars, if they had a car had a lot to do with it. If they'd be our taxi for awhile but, once I got a car we didn't, we didn't look to people just for cars. We just looked for their ability, what they could do for us. Did the same qualities apply for girls as well as boys? Yeah and sex appeal. I guess if they're willing to have sex with us. You know, it just, that's what it was. Just friends of a, you know. This girl Angel she had lived behind me, she's the one who got jumped in and all most all of us had sex with her and then her cousin came in and most of us had sex with her too. It sounds like there was an initiation for girls that to belong you had to have sex with most of the members. Yeah, unofficially. It was unsaid, you know no one said it but basically yeah, it kind of, you know it seemed that way I guess. I never thought about it like that though. ( clarification) Tell me a story about a weapon. Urn, all right, this one, this urn, all right this all kind of happened one night. It was a big night and urn, I like to fight for one it brought attention to me and for two it was like, it was just like all excitement. I like to be excited a lot. One night me and our friends were drinking and we were with this kid I went to school with he was a 507 but we hung out COPYRIGHT: HAND in HAND, Post Office Box 65522, Saint Paul, MN 55165 === 612-227 -5997

400z 6 9.57 with him and urn, urn. We were at a party, and me and my friend just got back form ripping these guys off And then the party, at he party one of my other friends, there were like six of us there, and there was like a hundred college students there. And the six of us that were there, urn, one of my friends ripped off the guy there so there he, there was a big commotion and I grabbed a 40 bottle. At first I tried grabbing a knife off the counter but someone grabbed that out of my hand so then I grabbed a 40 and my other friend grabbed a 40 and we were sitting there urn, ready to bust the guy that was, that was talking urn, talking stuff to my friend and but nothing happened. It just kind of calmed down and we just left and urn, there was no fight and I got all excited for nothing and I hate that. So then we were driving to this trailer court to drop urn, Kelly off that, this girl here, she was, she hung out with us you know, had sex with a few of us but never, I guess she was in it because she did, did things for us. We were dropping here off at the trailer court and at the trailer court there was some, a rival gang. Three rival gang members but two I had grown up with, we saw them there. And we came out and we were about to f, we were about to fight them but nothing happened for some reason because everyone was just shouting and I couldn't do it because they were two of my very good friends growing up. So I was waiting for the to make the first move and then or my friends to make a move but nothing happened. We heard cop sirens so we jumped in the car and left. Then we met up with my friend he urn, gave me some crystal meth so I was all, you know wired on that so. We went to urn, this party in North Mankato where my friends, my other friends from 507 had got kicked out. And we went in there and we were going to beat up all these Hill Billies but urn, the wouldn't come out of there house. So I was like "I came all the way over her for nothing. I almost got in two fights but didn't." So I went to the neighbor's house and we busted out the neighbor's house's windows just to do it. And, urn, then the, so then we all ran into our cars and took off and urn, Angel the girl in my set, got stuck there and she got beat. Some guy hit here with a shotgun, and another one of my friends got beat too but. We didn't know that he got left there because we came in like three different cars and we all just took off And then right after that we up to the apartment where we hung out, urn, Highland Hills and there's these three college guys walking out. And I was just burnt, I was just mad and urn, they just walked in front of my car and he put his arms up kind oflike, kind oflike challenging me and that was it. My brain just snapped. Then I, I jumped out of my car, grabbed the lead pipe and I went out at them and my three of my friends came out. One had a knife, and we were just sitting there yelling at them you know going you know, "what are you guys doing?" They got all scared and I'd see how scared they were and these guys were a lot bigger than us. But they were like hey, we're just trying to have a good time. Then I backhanded one of them, slapped one and I pushed the other one and then urn, one called me a name. I couldn't remember what it was he called me a name. And I said "what? Then he started running and I ran after him with the lead pipe. And I couldn't catch him and then my friend was standing there with the knife ready to slash him as he ran by but I, when I was running behind him I swung and I missed and I hit COPYRIGHT: HAND in HAND, Post Office Box 65522, Saint Paul, MN 55165 === 612-227 -5997

400z 7 my friends knife and it bent the knife over his knuckles like that and the guy kept running. He was, he was ducking down covering his head while he was running. I couldn't catch him. Then when I looked back I'd seen my other two friends both at the same time punch this dude on both sides of his face and then he kind of knelt down to cover his face and when I'd seen them punch him I ran up to the guy and smacked him in the back with that pipe and he went down. Then I saw his two friends and I went after them. I chased them around the comer and it was those two, just those two and me and I was standing there with the lead pipe and they're, they just ran away, I couldn't get to them. When I came back to the front where my car was, this guy, I'd seen him push my girlfriend and my girlfriend slapped him and I said, it just, I started running after him yelling. I couldn't catch up to him, and he ran into his apartment and shut his door and I started banging on his door with that lead pipe to get in there but I couldn't it was locked. So we left before the cops came there. So, that was just, one incident. 10.28 Is that a typical incident in the life of a Blood from Mankato? Yeah, pretty much. Except usually when we're going to fight we fight. But that day, that night there was you know two times where we didn't, no three times where we didn't fight. It's just, it just made me mad. It was just, I was to the top of my, you know, just exploding and when I'd seen those guy's who got in front of my car I just exploded on them. Where did the need to fight come from? I don't know. I never really had a need to fight. I just did it just for fun. It was really, I thought it was fun just to beat people up. I found excitement in it you know and attention. I got a lot of attention for it and that's something I liked because I never got it growing up. So, when I got attention from beating people up for doing crazy things, like doing crazy things to people like hitting them with beer bottles and stutt I just, it just. I mean it clicked right away in my mind that I could get attention for doing this. So I just kept doing it, that was, the only need really was for attention and to be somebody, really. 1l.01 What are you going to do to replace that? Urn, I don't know. I'm going to try to replace it with like, like, when I get out of Way 12 maybe, you know the next program I'm going to, maybe moving in with my Grandma you know because I could feel, she's someone who make me feel special, special to her. So, you know that'll be one way. Get, going to AA. I like, I like doing that because I talk and everyone is listening to me when I'm talking, I really like that. And urn, I don't know, maybe become a basketball player at a community college or something and I'm kind of thinking maybe when I get older become a counselor. A chemical dependency counselor. I don't know, give back like, give attention to people like me who when, you know when I get older that'll be something I'd really like. But I, I can't see nothing in my immediate future like, one thing that'll bring me attention except hanging out with a few sober friends that I got, you know playing basketball. COPYRIGHT: HAND in HAND, Post Office Box 65522, Saint Paul, MN 55165 =-~ 612-227 -5997

11.36 You talked about the police several times. Can you tell me about circumstances where you interacted with police? 400z 8 You mean like fighting with cops? I never really fought with cops, I usually have the most respect for cops. Once, you know I'll run away, I'll run away from them but when I get caught I know I'm caught so I just give them you know the most, pretty much respect because you know once your caught, your caught you know anything after that is only going to worsen the situation. So I don't know I just usually gave them the most respect I could because I didn't want to get anymore charges on me like disorderly conduct or anything. What can police do to address the gang issue? I'm not sure. They need to set up some programs like intramural sports get kids involved in like you know. Get more community basketball things, community football you know just like, things like that. Get kids together like that for like, you know any kind of thing. I don't really know. Sports is like my main thing so I'd say like, could kind of, like some kind of like league on Saturday mornings because we had that. I was in that for awhile. Saturday morning basketball league at the community center. You know little things like that makes a big difference because for that hour, two hours you know that's, the kid's going to be there playing basketball and not out somewhere hurting someone or getting all messed up. How old were you when you were involved in that community league? 12.32 Hmm, it's been the past two winter so like fifteen or sixteen. I've been involved in sports all my life but when It got to 9th grade I quit all my sports for drugs and kind of the gang thing. When people saw I was in sports they kind of like, "Oh you got to go to practice, come on come hang out with us," so, I just, ended up dropping out. So if you dropped out and as much as you love sports how people get kids to stay in sports because the excitement isn't as dynamic as gangs? I'm not really sure how to get a kid back into, sports. Get then back involved once he's already, one he's chosen his path he's going to choose his path, he's going to have to see for himself that it's not you know, see for himself that it's not as much fun as it seems you know. But for the first couple of years, the first year it's just fun. That's all it is, is fun. But once the consequences start coming back then that's when, that's when they see they got to get out so. Maybe if they can show the consequences before they get into it. If they can see the consequences before hand you know and actually believe it then that'll help. Because that's something I didn't, I didn't believe. I knew most of the consequences but I didn't believe that it could happen to me but, it did. A lot of it did happen to me. 13.13 How did you figure out that it could happen to you? Well, what summer was it? It was like, two summers ago I was urn, I had a party at my house because my parents were gone, and all these Cambodians had come up here from urn, or down to Mankato from St. Paul. It was a big party. These guys, this guy came in COPYRIGHT: HAND in HAND, Post Office Box 65522, Saint Paul, MN 55165 =--= 612-227-5997

400z 9 13.55 14.23 from the opposite gang. He was a Crip and he just walked in and usually, the guys from, they call themselves The Pound, they're all black except there's a few of them who are white. This white guy walked in and he had a blue rag around his head, and I just looked at him all goofy. I was like what is he doing in my house? So me and all these Cambodians ran outside to see who he was with and there was just a car load of those black guys. We were all ready to fight them and they took off in their car and I was like they left their friend inside my house. So we went in there and they, they started urn, my friends started hitting him, or they took his rag off his head and burnt it and they started hitting him in the head with their guns and then my, my friend form Mankato here hit him and we threw him outside of my house. And I went out side and I told him you know, just get out of here, you don't belong here, you know it was stupid for you to come here in the first place so just get out of here, just run, leave. And so he run, he left and then urn. About an hour later they're back and urn, I have a mortuary that's kind of behind my house so there is a parking lot behind my house. They were driving around the parking lot and my friends came out. One ran be hind a tree, my neighbors tree and the other one, other two they were hiding behind my brothers truck. And they were kind of acting goofy, I couldn't figure out what it was and then the other, the guys in the car started hollering. "What's up Blood?" to us and I was all. I thought we were going to fight, so I was standing out there and then, urn my friends from St. Paul, the Cambodian ones, they, they just star, they just started shooting at them. And there was just all kinds of gunfire going off and I just ran into my house. I was like, "Oh shit they're shooting at us!" And then, that was my first taste of really being shot at and that was my first thing that, but I, I like it because it brought a lot of attention to me. But that, but that was the first thing of it. You know it was in the back of my mind that you know I could've been killed, but. That first time I think about it. And then when the drive-by happened on my house, I got really scared because it could've hit my brother or my sister or anyone in my family. So that was another consequence, and then my car smashed up one night. I came home one night and all the windows were bashed out of my car. I don't know, things like that. And when I got shot at this last time I got fed up. I mean, it was right at the end of this last summer, that's when I was just starting, I wanted to clean up my life but I didn't really know how to, and urn I got shot at. I was pulling up in the gas station to meet these girls and these black guys, I didn't even know, I knew a couple of them but the one that shot at me I didn't even know. They came running out and they go "Hey!" and I look over and they're about ten, fifteen feet away and, raised his gun and just started shooting. And I heard my glass shatter, I heard bullets just, just like whizzing by me inside the car so I ducked down and I took off. And urn, my window was rolled down and it was urn, you know how windows go down in the car door, so the bullet came through and it hit the window and it ricocheted down otherwise the bullet would have came in and got me in the leg. So it shattered the window inside my door. And I was just, I had already been talking to and outpatient counselor about setting the things up to go back to outpatient but when I told COPYRIGHT: HAND in HAND, Post Office Box 65522, Saint Paul, MN 55165 = 612-227-5997

15.01 16.00 her about that she said it's not safe for you to go back. You need to go into impatient. 400z 10 So, I said all right. You know I went out and I got [unclear] and impatient. That's when I got fed up. But I think from the first time I got shot at I knew the consequences could happen to me this is real. But I decided I didn't stop then. So it sounds like the law didn't force you, nobody forced you. You just decided you wanted to change. Yeah, it was and that's the kind of person I am is if you go and tell me to do something I will do the exact opposite. Like if I see a, if I see a button that says don't press it I'll press it. I had a drug assessment in 9th grade and they urn, Mike Kesselring recommended that I go to Winnabago and my parents said no and urn the next year, the same thing, recommended Winnabago my parents said because my brother went through it when I was younger and they had a bad experience with it so. I think ifl would've went then it wouldn't have worked for me and I wouldn't have liked treatments and I would've never cleaned up myself to come into treatment. So it was something, yea I had to do my self I had to, you know I had to hit my bottom. I had to see the consequences not only of my use but of my gang life. That really put me in, that really finally I said I got to get out of here I got to get out of this community. You know, start working on changing my life. Could you go back to Mankato and live? I could, I couldn't live with my parents but urn,. I could live in like an apartment or something but, it, it just wouldn't be safe for me to go back to Mankato. I mean, I, I had a dream last night that had a drive-by done on my house twice and it just. Thinks like that it just, it scares me. I worry about my family and you know, I've got to think about my family. IfI'm living at home, how safe are they going to be anyways. But I won't be living at home with them anyways but how many people are going to know that. How do you get out of the gang? Do you just say, "Ok guys I'm out." Or will they try to recruit you back in? Or beat you up? I don't know, the guys they really looked up to me so I don't know if a beating would be, if they'd do that urn. Maybe some of the 507, I, might get beat up by, urn, but, because a lot of them, are sobering up. You know a few of them are sobering up so they're not going to mind but urn. I don't know. I ran into one of them at the mall in the whole passing, I could just tell by the look at the, in his eye that he was pissed at me, but. He knows there's nothing really he can do because they're kind of afraid of me in a way, so. I don't know, my friend, he made up a contract of resignation, he wrote it and signed it and everything but, he, he didn't give it to anyone but I got it urn, through the counselor at Winnabago. So, I don't know if I'm going to do something like that or just stay away and let the word by spread that I'm not, I'm not a part of that no more. So you don't see that there would be retaliation. I don't think they're going to retaliate, really urn. There aren't laws like with the Bloods that once you're in you're in for life? No, there's no laws. We always said that we were down for life, but I don't know. There's COPYRIGHT: HAND in HAND, Post Office Box 65522, Saint Paul, MN 55165 == 612-227-5997

400z 11 no laws. We weren't that organized I don't think. What about if you lived in Mankato, recovery can be boring initially. Do you think you could stay away if you went back and lived there? I don't think, well, it's kind of 50-50. I think I could stay away from everything if! went back, but then again there's another part of me that's thinking, maybe I can't stay away. I like the excitement too much, because I'm just, I like, I like excitement. So that's part of the reason why I really don't want to go back there, but. I don't know, my best friend is sober and he's got a really strong mind but, he could help. You know he's a really big help for me. But I could, I could kind of see it in myself how I'm, when I'm home, the whole I like to go to the mall just to kind of. I don't know, I don't really think of it at the time but I, when I'm here I have a lot of time to think. I think you know I go there just to check it out you know, to sometimes spread the word that I'm sober and sometimes just to see you know, see who's there. Just to run into people. So, you know if I'm back for good, I don't know how it's going to be. You know, I might get board and start hanging around the same people again. I'm not really sure. 17.27 Did your best friend get out of the gang? Yeah he did. No, no he's, he's hanging around urn, Brad who had came through here too, and he's got sober, and he got out of the gang. Urn, but every once in awhile I'll hear him say, "Eastside". You know and I say you know, what, why are you saying that? He goes not for Eastside Blood but just for Eastside because that's where he's from. Just for the love out of the Eastside of Mankato not Eastside Blood but. It's still that kind of behavior that worries me. But otherwise, he's, he's out and I don't see him going back in because he's not wearing the clothes and he's not, the behaviors are there sort of, but not as strong you know, he's not acting on them but words will come out. That kind of reminds me of the old him. I don't know. Did you have much structure to the Eastside Bloods? Was there literature or meetings? Was there much organizational structure to the Eastside Bloods? 18.03 Our organization was basically, we were brothers basically because we hung out every day. We didn't need to have meetings because we were with each other every day. As for literature we did have, sort ofliterature you now we ran another five point star, and we had like, I can't even remember it now. It was family, respect, honesty, love, loyalty I think were the five points but urn, we never really ran by that because we were drug addicts so we'd kind of, we'd steal from each other every once in awhile. I mad it a point not to steal from my friends and I never did because I loved those guys like my brothers because I'd do anything for them you know. If they're ever fighting, I've never seen any of them fight one on one. I mean if I see them fighting I'm going to fight. So, we were, we were, were brothers basically. So, that's, that's that was the difference between us and 507. 507 was organized. It was an organization, a gang. We were brothers. It was a brotherhood to us, you know. Urn, yea, so like meetings, we couldn't, you know we never had any organized meetings. We just, we were always together, always together. COPYRIGHT: HAND in HAND, Post Office Box 65522, Saint Paul, MN 55165 = 612-227-5997

18.48 19.50 400z 12 And um, like me, Mike and Chris would get together if someone was really messing up, like hanging around the other side to much, then we'd talk about what we were going to do, we'd check them. What we call checking. Check them, we'd come up and hit him one or twice you know just to let them know, tell them what they did wrong. And you know hug them after that, told them that we love them still. Did people get violations? Yeah that's what a violation is, when we checked them. That's a violation, we'd just, you know hit them in the chest, or hit him in the. I don't know, I don't know if we ever got hit in the face, if we ever hit each other in the face. But every once in awhile we'd check their loyalty, check their love, we'd urn, it was actually when some one had a resentment against someone, but we'd, but they'd bring it out as you know "I don't think they're being too loyal to us. They're not showing much love." So we'd all, you know they'd start fighting and everyone would start fighting with that one person. And then, you know that's how we checked their loyalty and love. But when they're getting, like Jeremy got a little too bad on Ritilin. You know, giving up his rag for Ritilin and stuff like that we'd hit him. You know to get him away from that, or if he starts staying overnight at like a Crip's house and stufflike that we, we wouldn't go for that. We'd hit him for that, you know do a check on him. That's a violation is, we'd check him. Is this one or two hits or is this five minutes of two or three people beating you up? Just one or two hits. Were there other people who had authority beside you three of you, running the gang? We all had basic authority. We all had a say on what we were going to do that night or what was going to happen. But as us we were all pretty much equal, but I mean you could tell who was, who was stronger, who did more. You know because we'd mess with each other and no one would mess with me. Every body would mess with Chris at first because he was thought of as a punk as, when we, he were growing up. So, they'd punk him around a lot, but he, so they gave him respect to where no one would mess with him. No one would mess with Mike because he's bigger, but no one would mess with me because you know I proved to them that I was crazy. So, I don't know we just, there was no real order, like there was no set order. It was from other people's eyes that I was the leader or Chris was the leader or Mike was the leader, so. Could someone come in and say let's get revenge on this person because I think he slept with my girlfriend? From our own set? What were some of the things that would make you go out and get in a fight with someone? Money, if we wanted money we would just look for people to jack. If they disrespected us in some way disrespected any of us. Like my friend Jesse. He's pretty small, he was in the group home and ugh, this kid had slapped him while he was in there and he went to our school. So we found out about that. And ugh, one day after school me, Mike and Chris COPYRIGHT: HAND in HAND, Post Office Box 65522, Saint Paul, MN 55165 === 612-227 -5997

20.20 20.54 21.19 400z 13 sat there and watched him outside of school. And he started walking down the block and he was with his friend, and we said as soon as his friend leaves we're going to get him. And his friend left. So we walked down a couple of blocks and saw him. My friend, me and my friend Chris walked right up into his face and Chris said, " Do you know my friend Jesse Pepper?" And he didn't even, he got halfway through it he like got to Jesse and Mike just came flying up and just smacked him. Just hit him and the guy went flying back. We, I went after him to get him again but he got up and started running. And we all chased him just laughing because it's fun to us and he turned the corner. I said, "You better not slip," and he fell right in someone's back yard like five feet from their back door. And we just started just stomping him. The three of us just stomped him and, we messed up his pituitary gland or something in his head, and chipped all his teeth. He had to get all new dental work and stuff. I mean that was the kind of retaliation if you, disrespect us or just slap one of us you know, you know physically harm any of us, we'll go out and get revenge or disrespect by word. Like calling us like slobs or something. That's what people called us to disrespect us. That's what is was or. But if the girlfriend like if another one slept some, one of our girlfriends we'd take it out on the girl. We'd get them out you know, we'd kind of slap them around, you know. It wouldn't be the other guys fault because guys are guys you know. We all knew that and if the girl messed up we'd, you know, we'd take it out on her. Because that's how she won her love, her loyalty to the gang. How would you take it out on her? Just slap her around a little bit I guess, I don't know. Did you beat up girls as bad as you beat up guys? I've never beat up a girl as bad as I've beat up a guy. Never. What is slapping around a little bit? Is it two or three slaps? Yeah, slapping them around is like slapping them upside the head or sometimes in the face. You know, or shoving them around you know just scaring them, just things you know. We could tell, we could tell what was needed to be done. Like if she seemed scared enough like the point got across then we'd stop, but if it wasn't then we'd have to slap them around more. Like actually slap them, or we never punched any of them with our fists. Except when Angel got jumped in she got punched but. We just usually just slapped them across the face or throw them around. What was the attitude towards girls or women in the gang? Women in our gang we had a lot of respect for, but as it went on we started talking behind their back. You know how she's a slut and this and that but. To other girls I'll slide in you know if they're just bitches or sluts or you know hoes we didn't care about them you know. We were all trying to be players you know. Our attitudes towards, just women in basic wasn't very good, I mean, we thought they were nothing. But the one, the women in our gang we'd have respect for them in a way but not a lot after awhile, after the started COPYRIGHT: HAND in HAND, Post Office Box 65522, Saint Paul, MN 55165 = 612-227-5997

400z 14 sleeping with us all we'd just call her a slut and stuff behind her back. But what ever she needed we'd give it to her. What do you mean by that? Like if she was, like if she needed a bag or something you know we'd give it to her you know. Whatever she, we took care of each other you know. If somebody had weed and nobody else did you know, iflike I had a bag and no one else had a bag, everyone had a bag because that's how you know we all were. We shared everything with each other. It sounds like you all slept with the girls but then you disrespected them for sleeping with you. But the rules weren't clear for the girls. You set up a standard that the girls weren't suspose to sleep with everybody, and then you would disrespect them. 22.05 Yeah, it was like. It was no set rules for the girls that hey had to sleep with us they just slept with the gooder looking ones, like when we got drunk. You know if there was no one else around you know they would just sleep with us or whatever, we'd sleep with them. If they were just, if couldn't find anyone else and urn. In disrespecting them we'd just like, I don't know why we'd you know just, because one slept with all most all of us we'd just. Like Angel slept with almost all of us but, we were kind of like well she shows a lot oflove for us that way. That's what we'd think, we'd think. But as soon as they left us or went to sleep with someone else then we'd just totally, just get on their case about it. Call them all kinds of names. As a group did you ever force any of the girls to sleep with anyone, as in the group force a girl to sleep with the group? I personally don't remember have, forcing any of our girls to have sex with me but, urn. I don't know what goes on behind closed doors. I don't know if some of them did or not. I, I can't think of anything really off hand. I can't think of anything. Was there any group sex situations set up? Yeah, me and my friend Brian, had this girl where urn we got her girl over to our house and she was already kind of drunk and I took her upstairs and urn, had sex with her. And then went, I made her, I told her to stay there and wait for me and I went down stairs and got Brian. I told him to go up there and he had sex with her too. Me and Brian we were the ones like that. We were more of the players, the other guys weren't all that great looking so they didn't have sex all that often. But I mean me and Brian were the ones that were, did things like that but never, no group things like all at once. Like no ganging up on the girls, nothing like that. 23.03 If the girl didn't know and she was drunk, is that kind oflike rape? No, because she wanted it, I don't know. She wanted Brian even though she thought she was getting you again? No, she probably, I don't know what happened. I know it wasn't rape because, I don't know I guess it could have been. I don't know, I guess I kind of pimped her is the way La Donna put it, made it you know. But I didn't force her to have sex with him but. If it COPYRIGHT: HAND in HAND, Post Office Box 65522, Saint Paul, MN 55165 = 612-227-5997

400z 15 were, if she wouldn't have I probably would have made her, forced her you know, scared her to have sex with him or something. Lets talk about drugs, you've refered to them a lot. Tell me some stories of how drugs were involved and about how you did your drug dealing. I don't know, we did a lot of drug dealing. Drugs were involved because it was a daily thing. We had to be high every day so you know. That's where a lot of the violence came, to get money because we had to beat someone up to get money, and we'd urn, we stole a lot of money. People would give us money to get them a bag and we'd just keep the money and go buy a bag for ourselves. I don't know, that's a hard, you know a hard question to answer. How much it was involved I mean. It was an everyday thing you know. 23.45 What were you high on? Whatever I could get my hands on. I drank a lot, um weed everyday and drinking you know almost everyday. And whatever we, if we can get a hold of some meth or some crank or something Ritilin, we did a lot of Ritilin too. Um, but we were high on whatever we could get. Whatever we could get our hands on. Where did you get it to sell? Where did we get it? You said you sold a lot of it. How did you make the contacts to get it? Yeah, um our contacts were like my friends mom. Both of his parents were really big drug dealers so we got it from her and her, his dad. And my friend Mike, his dad was a big drug dealer too, so we'd be getting it through him and then from being over there we'd be introduced to other people and you know, it's, it's hard to explain. It's just like, it's like a snowball you know. You meet one person and you meet the next and they introduce you to this guy and then this guy. And urn, my friend Jesse, he moved out to the lake, his mom owns a resort out there and the people that were staying there were big crank dealers from St. Paul and that's where I ended up meeting them. I started going out with their daughter, having sex with her basically just to get the drugs. So that's how I met that, but it's all over in Mankato. I mean you meet a few people and they'll introduce you to a few more people. But it started out as Jared's parents and Mike's dad. 24.35 So it started out as Jared's parents and Mike's dad. Yeah, that's where, that's where it started, with Jared and Mike's parents. Detour back to girls. If you were going with a girl was that like dating? Or was like you were using her and you would be having sex with other girls if they were available? yeah, I used all my girlfriends. I don't know I just, I didn't have much respect for women. I mean, ifi was, I never had really too many solid relationships except one that lasted awhile. I cheated on her only a few times. Bu, I mean there was really between me and girls there's no commitment really. Most of, most of my sex was just one night stands. There wasn't very many relationships. 25.. 02 COPYRIGHT: HAND in HAND, Post Office Box 65522, Saint Paul, MN 55165 == 612-227 -5997

400z 16 Have you attitudes changed? Yeah my attitudes trying, I mean my attitude towards violence behavior has changed towards gang, you know the stuff I did is changing. Towards women it's slowly changing. It's, it's really hard I mean. I don't want to do the same things that I did to women but it's hard because, I don't really know. I don't know what it's like to have an actual relationship. But talking to Julie, I talk to her on a regular basis and she's you know teaching me how to like, like be friends with them first and that's something that's hard for me to believe. You know but I mean to have an honest relationship with them is like, to be friends with them first. Then just be honest with them, treat them like a friend. You know like someone that you love. Can you love someone? Yeah, I love a lot of people. 25.28 Are any of the people you love still banging? Yeah, urn I, I got a lot oflove for Jesse and he's still banging. He really bad on crank but I choose not to be around him. I actually me, me and him have the same P.O. and I told her to get him a U A once and I know it will come up positive. And then urn, once that happens take him to court for violation of probation and then send him to inpatient. You know, that's the kind of love that I have for him. He won't think of it like that. He'll think of me narking on him but I do love him you know and that's what I want for him. Urn, I guess Mike, he's trying to sober up. I mean he's been sober for awhile. He's going to AA with Chris. You know I got love for him, but he's still hanging around this, you know the bangers and stuff, kind of, every once in awhile. So I don't know what, I haven't been around so I don't know the extent of his banging is now. Urn, my girlfriend Angie or, my ex-girlfriend the one I was going out with for a long time. I love her. She's not really banging but she's using. I don't know, she says she's not but I think she's using. She just turned 21 today. So, I don't know. But yeah, there's only a couple people I've got love for that are still banging. How much fighting was there between gangs in Mankato? A lot. There was a lot of fighting between gangs, I mean. It was all the time. It was in the paper all the time about fighting and stuff and guns came in and it's just terrible. 26.19 How many gangs are there in Mankato? Urn, I'd say there's about 4 or 5 gangs in Mankato. Urn, well there's Crips and GD's and 26.41 there's Bloods and there's Vice Lords, urn, but and there's different sets too. And there's the people that are just down with it and then hanging around all different gangs and. It's really hard to say, oh, there's and there's Latin Kings so I don't know, what's that? 5 or 6 I think. And there's the made up gangs too. Like Low Down Posse or something like that or.dp or yeah LDP, All American Boys, A.A.B. and those usually fade out after about a year even, not even that like half a year. Are most of the gangs white kids? COPYRIGHT: HAND in HAND, Post Office Box 65522, Saint Paul, MN 55165 == 612-227 -5997