Interview number A-0264 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill. Maurice Bessinger Interview Subject: Maurice Bessinger Interviewer: Jack Bass and Walter DeVries Date: February 11,1974 Topics: Columbia, S.C. businessman and 1974 gubernatorial candidate Maurice Bessinger discusses the current state of politics in South Carolina and his campaign for governor. Transcriber: Larry Grubbs, Modern Political Collections, The South Caroliniana Library, The University of South Carolina, February 1999 Note: This interview is held by The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. A copy of the tape was provided to the Modern Political Collections Division of the University of South Carolina's South Caroliniana Library for transcription. Unintelligible words and phrases are represented by " " within the transcription.
Bass anddevries Interview of Maurice Bessinger, p. 2 Bass: How did you get into politics? Bessinger: Politics has always fascinated me. I became interested in 1960, when John Kennedy was running against [Richard] Nixon. I really got interested in politics back in the early '60s, when you had a lot of turmoil. Bass: You ran for the legislature in '62? Bessinger: '64. I was portrayed as a pretty strong segregationist. Bass: Weren't you, at that time? Bessinger: Like everyone else at that time. But, there was more than that involved. I come from a real independent line of people. My dad used to own a restaurant. He had certain rules in his restaurant, and he didn't care whether you were a governor of South Carolina, a senator, or the poorest guy in town, he expected everybody to obey his rules, [laughter] There was no exception to this. One particular rule was no drinking. He didn't give a damn who you were, a governor or anyone else. He meant no drinking. That's just the way he was. I grew up in this type of environment, and always thought that a man was king in his business. He could run his business any way he wanted to, as long as he wasn't breaking any laws. We had a lot of problems on Main Street. They said they were going to make me serve them. Bass: You don't have any problems now? Bessinger: Oh, no. I haven't had any problems for years. As a matter of fact, had I not been at that one particular place at that time when they had a lot of rough stuff going on, there would probably not have been a big fight at all over it. Bass: How did you get involved in the Independent Party? Bessinger: In '64,1 was one of the leading contenders in the race, and I dropped out to head the [George] Wallace movement. I saw that Wallace was speaking the language of the little people. There are so many people in this country that don't think that they are being represented. I felt that we needed this. I got interested in his campaign, and more or less sacrificed my race in heading up his campaign in '64. It evolved from that, from the outgrowth of the Wallace movement. Now, it's a different ball game. The Democratic Party has wandered out to the exotic fringe, and almost drowned. But, it's coming back now to where we are. It's coming back to Wallace, it's coming back to, it's coming back to Governor [Lester] Maddox, and trying to serve the real people's needs. Bass: When you announced for governor, you talked about yourself having undergone some change. What were you referring to? Bessinger: I did have a Christian conversion. It's a funny thing. I always thought I was a Christian, but I really wasn't. I was going straight to hell, and didn't know it. Being a Christian is a wonderful thing, and you do look at things differently. I know this is hard for some people to believe. One of the mayors of our leading cities here in South Carolina said that he thought I
Bass anddevries Interview of Maurice Bessinger, p. 3 was a Christian all the time. Most people think they are Christians, but they're not really Christian until they accept Jesus Christ. I had Jesus in my mind, but I didn't have him in my heart. Ninety-nine percent of people have him in their mind, but they don't have him in their heart. Bass: What caused your conversion? Was it an experience? Bessinger: I had this preacher who had been after me for a number of years. I grew up in the Baptist Church, but somehow or another, I never did get the message. I suppose it was my fault, [laughter] I never got the message that Jesus came into this world to die on the cross for our sins, past present, and future. I never got that message, it never came through to me. I guess I was too busy. This pastor worked on me for five years trying to get me in his church. I kept putting him off. Finally, one day, he told me, "No, you'll never come in." I said, "Yes, I will." He said, "No, you'll never come." Somewhere along the line, I remembered that God will work on you, but then he'll quit. So, I went that Sunday. You could feel the Holy Spirit in this church the minute that you walked in. Bass: Who is the minister? Bessinger: Pastor William Wall. Bass: What church is that? Bessinger: It's Metropolitan Baptist. He started the busing ministry in this town. He pioneered it when most of the churches at that time felt that it wasn't nice to go out and get these little snotty nosed youngsters out of the poor neighborhoods and bring them to their churches. He started with a very poor church, a real hole in the wall. Now, we have a quarter of a million dollar church going up on new grounds. I received Christ that day, and knew what it was all about. I hadn't known what it was all about. I'm still growing in Christ. I don't mind telling you that before this happened, I wasn't sure that blacks had a soul. There was some doubt in my mind. Of course, now I know that they do have a soul. They have the same opportunity as anyone else to be saved. Of course, being saved before, I didn't even know what all that was about. Now, I am a saved man. I know that. Whether I am still a segregationist or not, I don't think that is the issue. Bass: Do you consider yourself still a segregationist? [Tape Stops, then Restarts] Bessinger: This was my position all the time. God made blacks black. We're studying the Bible now. This evolutionary bit, that's for the birds. Anybody as powerful as God can make man out of dust. I believe God made blacks, and God made whites. I don't believe in inter marriage. What I was trying to do here was leave Jesus out, and trying to solve the world's problems on my own. Well now, that isn't going to happen. No man can do that. Jesus is the only one who's going to solve these problems. The problems of the world are going to get worse and worse until he comes back. That's his plan.
Bass anddevries Interview of Maurice Bessinger, p. 4 Bass: But aside from inter-marriage, public schools, public accommodations, public facilities, is it segregation in the political sense? Bessinger: Segregation is passe in the public sense. It's a thing that we went through. I don't think we can ever go back to what it was. Bass: You were a defender of it at one time. In looking back on it from your current perspective, do you think that you were mistaken then, or do you think that things have just changed, and you've grown to accept it? Bessinger: I wasn't mistaken then, for what I was then. Bass: For what you are now, though? Bessinger: Somewhat mistaken, yes. However, I was pushed pretty hard. Bass: What was your reaction last year when Governor Wallace crowned a black homecoming queen and addressed a black mayors' conference? Bessinger: Of course, his addressing the black mayors' conference was a function that a governor should do. It should not be objected to at all. Governor Wallace didn't pick the black queen. She was picked in a democratic way, I suppose. This was a state university, and I see no objection to that at all, although some may have. There was a little discussion of it around, I heard. But, there's no real objection from anyone, and certainly not from me. I saw nothing bad Bass: When [Edward] Kennedy came down last year in July, do you think that hurt him or helped him? Bessinger: I don't know. At first, there was some objection to it. A lot of these people that were objecting may have been Republicans, or have been voting Republican of late, and weren't as really Independent as they would like to think. I saw nothing wrong with it. As Governor Wallace himself said, the senator from Massachusetts came to Alabama. He didn't go to Massachusetts. He was very emphatic. He said that he informed Senator Kennedy that he would not accept any second spot on the ticket. In fact, he asked Senator Kennedy to accept the second spot with him. Bass: If Governor Wallace campaigns for the national Democratic ticket in 1976, do you think that would make any real difference in the South? Bessinger: Yes, I do. I think it would make a big difference. He's not going to campaign actively for the ticket unless they have given him, and given the people, a part of the main course instead of crumbs. If he campaigns, it will be something the people can sink their teeth in. If he does campaign, I would probably help the ticket, not just because he is campaigning for it, but because there must be something to work for. I think that this would go a long way in re-creating the Solid South. That's what I would like to see. I think we can get a better economic deal if we do.
Bass anddevries Interview of Maurice Bessinger, p. 5 Bass: Why did you decide to run for governor this time? Bessinger: First of all, I'm running because I think I can win. Secondly, I want to serve the people. I want to do something for the people of South Carolina. I'm an honest man, and I may be the most honest politician running. I'm not sure I'm a politician, I'm not sure what that is. I may be the most honest man in politics in South Carolina in years. I'm totally honest with myself. I'm going to do something to help the people, and the people need help. The people are really not as represented as you would think. It's all coming to the surface now. There are so many things going on. For instance, the other day, I said that I endorsed a no-fault plan. The insurance companies are lobbying against it, are lobbying against it, and attorneys. I don't want to get the attorneys against me, but if it's a matter of being on the side of the people or on the side of all the wealth in the world, I'm on the side of the people. Bass: Do you think you'll be able to get black votes? Bessinger: I think I should get black votes, not that I'm going to make any great overture there. I should get it on the basis of being the most honest man, and the best man in general, in the race. If I'm going to help the people, this should help the blacks, too. Bass: Do you plan to campaign actively among blacks as well as among whites? Bessinger: I'm going to campaign with everybody. I will not run my campaign like the politicians have been running their campaigns. I'm going to tell it like it is. I'm going to run a clean campaign, but at the same time, they are going to have to meet the issues head on. That's what it's all about. I've got to get this message to the people, and I won't have the money to do it with that my opponents will have because they are going to have thousands and thousands of dollars in individual contributions. I put a limit of a hundred dollars on mine, because therein lies the problem that we have in this country. You can't have real democracy in action unless you limit campaign contributions. There's no way. You can have a real honest politician up there, but buddy, if you don't have limits on campaign contributions, he's going to be moved to where the money comes from. If you have a limit on campaign contributions, I'd say fifty to a hundred dollars, then you are a real people's candidate. Bass: Do you think the South Carolina Independent Party is passe? Bessinger: I have asked those people to join me, and hopefully they are going to come back into the Democratic Party, and vote in the Democratic primary. That's been one of the problems, such a low vote in the Democratic primaries. I'd like to see it go back like it was. Most of these people that are Independent today, they have good potential as Democrats. They didn't go that last step to Republicans. I never went that last step. Bass: In 1972, most of the sixty-eight Wallace vote in South Carolina voted Republican, they voted for Nixon over [George] McGovern. Where do you see this vote going in the future in both state and national races? Bessinger: Obviously, almost all the Democrats voted for Nixon, too, in this state, [laughter] That was just a good old American vote.
Bass anddevries Interview of Maurice Bessinger, p. 6 Bass: Do you see the Wallace vote continuing to vote Republican, or do you think they're going to vote Democratic? Bessinger: It all depends on what you offer the people. I like to look on it like the Democratic Party has come back around to me. This, hopefully, is going to start a big trend back to the Democratic Party. I don't want to actually say that we don't need a Republican Party in this state, but I will say that we'd be a lot better off if we could get people reoriented back to the Democratic primary like it once was. Bass: Whether you win or don't win the primary, do you expect all candidates for governor in the primary to support whoever the winner is? Bessinger: Yes, I do. Bass: If you win, you expect the other gubernatorial candidates to support you, and if you don't win, you expect to support them? Bessinger: Yes. Unless there is a radical change. You never know what a man is going to do tomorrow. If my opponent wins, he may go way out there and go nuts or something, [laughter] Within reason, I'd say I will. Bass: Do you think that blacks, who have been voting Democratic in South Carolina pretty overwhelmingly, and the Wallace voters will get together on economic issues? Bessinger: That's a good question. This has been a real big question. I think it's a better time for it now than ever. It depends on how much they push the race problems. If somehow or another, we could get the prejudice broken down on both sides, this could happen. There's a lot of it on both sides. The bread and butter issues are definitely the big issues. Race is not an issue in South Carolina. I don't think it's an issue. People have accepted it. Bass: And that would include schools? Bessinger: Yes. They have accepted it mostly because they don't think that there is any recourse. Good or bad, that's the way the situation looks. They don't see any hope of going back to the way it was, so they try to make out with it. There's a lot of problems with the schools. The schools are in shambles. There's not much education being taught anymore. This is going to be one of my major points, that I'm going to return education to the schools. That's what our schools are for. We're going to make the schools conducive to education. It's not that way now. There are a lot of narcotics in the schools. I'm a Sunday school teacher. Just the other day, I was with my class, and a boy's mother said that their older boy, I think he was fourteen, somebody had given him a marijuana cigarette that day. She asked the boy, "Why didn't you take that to the principal?" He said, "Mamma, you want to get me killed?" I don't think that's very conducive to education. We'll return education to the public schools. DeVries: You mentioned no-fault insurance. Do you have any other programs like that that are designed to appeal to people, other than education? Bass: We have a lot of things that we will be talking about in the campaign. I wouldn't want to
Bass anddevries Interview of Maurice Bessinger, p. 7 discuss that. They're being developed as we go. I wouldn't want to bring up any more issues at this time. However, those are two very important issues. No-fault is going to save the people money, so why not have it? DeVries: Do you see yourself basically as a populist? Bessinger: In the sense that they call it that. I like to think that I'm a people's candidate. That's the only reason I'm running. I'm certainly not in this because I like it. I can think of a lot of other things that I'd rather do. But, there is a need for an honest man in government like never before. People have lost confidence in our system. Let's face it, they think everybody's a crook, and they're ninety-eight percent right. I'm not saying that ninety-eight percent of elected officials are crooks. But a lot of people think that. South Carolina needs an honest man in the governor's chair. [Tape stops, then restarts] DeVries: What do you think is going to be the effect of Watergate on South Carolina politics and the Republican Party? Bessinger: [laughter] I'd like to think that it would be one thing that would burst the bubble, although I know the Democrats are just as guilty of some of the same things. I can remember six years ago or eight years ago, the Republicans came along and said, "Let's elect Republicans and get rid of those dirty Democrats." [laughter] They were supposed to be a lot cleaner than what they are. Actually, I'm one of the first victims of Watergate. The Nixon machine ran over me in '67. They knew they had to destroy me in order to carry the state for Nixon. I used to believe, somewhat like a lot of people were being led to believe, that we need a strong man in this country, a dictator. A lot of the people on the right wing were beginning to believe this. Then, one morning you wake up and say, "Wait a minute. That guy, I might be on his side today, but tomorrow, he may order my head cut off." [laughter] That's the last thing we need in this country. Bass: What do you think has been the biggest single change in South Carolina politics in the last twenty years? Bessinger: The emergence of Maurice Bessinger. [End of Interview]