The Two Witnesses Literal or Symbolic? - posted by EvangelTam, on: 2011/11/15 15:00 Hello so I have done some research on this and come across two views 1. http://www.bibletruthonline.com/whoarethetwowitnesses.htm Two come from out of heaven down to earth.... Anyone that wants to harm them will be killed by fire that comes out of their mouths. These two have the power to call down every kind of plague as often as they want. Then the Beast comes up out of the Abyss and kills them. They lay in the streets for 3-1/2 days...then the breath of life from God enters them and a loud voice from heaven says: "Come up here!" Who are these two witnesses?? Question: Can you kill an angel? Answer: NO! Question: Which two people who live BEFORE Jesus have not died yet? Answer: ENOCH & ELIJAH 2 Kings 2:11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and seperated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him. IT IS APPOINTED FOR ALL MEN TO DIE ONCE! Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement. The Two Witnesses who were taken into heaven have to be brought back into this world to die. The Two that were taken into heaven were Enoch and Elijah. THEY ARE THE TWO WITNESSES! Thats so crazy like ENOCH who was almost from the very beginning of creation (7th genration) and Elijah! Page 1/5
Elijah is like super he got to be transfigured with Christ and he gets to be one of the two witnesses! 2. http://www.gci.org/bible/rev/2witnesses thoughts on this? I am more inclined to the first one YOO ENOCH COMING BACK TO PROPHESY COMMON SOO SICKEEE Re: The Two Witnesses Literal or Symbolic? - posted by Lysa (), on: 2011/11/15 15:39 Quote: -------------------------EvangelTam wrote: thoughts on this? I am more inclined to the first one YOO ENOCH COMING BACK TO PROPHESY COMMON SOO SICKEEE ------------------------- Nice non-argumentative topic!! (hehehe) To me, a non-scholar, the first one makes more sense!! Personally speaking, I believe Revelation 20 will happen literally, so logically, I have to believe the two witnesses will be literal as well: Quote: -------------------------And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a to rment to those who dwell on the earth. Revelation 11.7-10 ------------------------- God bless, IÂ m sure youâ ll get much more in depth responses!! Lisa Re: The Two Witnesses Literal or Symbolic? - posted by twayneb (), on: 2011/11/15 15:59 I think scripture gives us not clear evidence that would lead us to believe they are symbolic, so I believe they are literal men. I think circumstantial evidence seems to point to Enoch and Elijah, but it is definitely not spelled out clearly. Re: The Two Witnesses Literal or Symbolic? - posted by staff, on: 2011/11/15 18:26 hi evangeltam, Can I firstly say that it does not say that the two witnesses come from heaven to earth. It only says that they are translated back to heaven alive. The two witnesses are two literal people but are also a movement. It is easy enough to recognise Elijah as one of the two but the other requires study and insight.to my understanding alth ough the enoch and elijah and moses and elijah views could be argued they are incorrect. To understand who the second witness is you have to understand clearly why the other witness is Elijah.This would invol ve studying Kings and the 42months and even if you study it unless its enlightened by the Holy Spirit you will not underst and it like all scripture.i do believe the answer is there but I belive it is not either Moses or Enoch. The Two Witnesses 1 Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff ; and someone said, "Get up and measure the temple of God an d the altar, and those who worship in it. 2 "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it h as been given to the nations ; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. 3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." 4 These are the tw o olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flo ws out of their mouth and devours their enemies ; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way. 6 Thes e have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying ; and they have power Page 2/5
over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. yours staff Re: - posted by staff, on: 2011/11/15 18:31 Hi Evaneltam, May I just add that if the two witnesses are symbolic,how can they die?and the writer explains who the two witnesses ar e by using symbols ie lampstands and olive trees,why would he use symbols to explain symbols?no he was using symb ols to explain real literal people,yours staff Re: - posted by EvangelTam, on: 2011/11/15 18:42 yeah you make a good point ``Revelation had already introduced the martyr Antipas of Pergamum (2:13). He was called a "faithful witness" and was a representative of the church as a whole who had remained true to Christ's name. Perhaps that is the sense in which w e should understand the two witnesses. It seems possible, then, to explain the two witnesses as symbols of the witnessing church. Certainly, that was the role of the church in the days of the apostles. Based on the commission given by Jesus, that responsibility remains the continui ng role of the church until "the very end of the age" or his return (28:19-20). In the words of Robert W. Wall: "The two wit nesses symbolize the entire worshiping community which bears collective witness to God and to God s Christ" (New Int ernational Biblical Commentary, "Revelation," p. 150).`` From what I understand from the article the witnesses die because ofr persecution... Re: The Two Witnesses Literal or Symbolic? - posted by ginnyrose (), on: 2011/11/15 18:46 I agree with the others: these are real people, but their names are not given. Their ministry will be very spectacular: they can spit fire out of their mouth that devours their enemies; they have power to inflict droughts; turn water into blood; smit e the earth with all kinds of plagues...fearsome men, indeed! Then the beast that rises out of the bottomless pit will make war with them and kill them. Their bodies will lie in the street for 3 1/2 days and then they will resurrect and ascended to heaven! Now this will be BIG news for mankind to ponder! But before they gloat too much a huge earthquake will rattle t hem in which 7000 men will be killed. AND it says the remnant gave glory to God! WOW! Beats anything we have ever s een! Re: - posted by EvangelTam, on: 2011/11/15 19:03 what is really interesting is that in the NT age before this time there has not been any OT like```judgement`` miracles suc h as fire from heaven, blood turning into water etc. as seen in the OT accompany anyone`s ministry but rather ``grace`` miracles such as healings, resurrections though there was Ananias and Sapphira and Bar Jesus being blinded with dark mist. I believe this is because Jesus was supposed to bring life with turning water into the New wine where as the law through Moses brought death with the water turning into blood Re: - posted by staff, on: 2011/11/15 19:11 Hi Evangeltam, Elijah was "head of the school of the prophets";in this sense it will be a corporate body but not symbolically in reality.ho w could the entire worshipping community die?like it says in revelation,yours staff Page 3/5
Re: - posted by EvangelTam, on: 2011/11/15 21:36 yeah thats true it is a bit of a stretch, thanks for your input but while were on the topic of the two witness verse 3 simply says "and I will grant authority to my two witnesses and the y will prophesy for 1200 and and 60 days clothed in sack cloth" any idea of how these witnesses will come on the scene? apppearing in Spirit with sackcloth? coming back in the chariot of fire? (porbably not doesnt say so in the passage) Surely not born out of the womb again? If they are Elijah and Enoch it could not be a Spiritual annointing like John the Baptist will they have a ministry and part of the church at the time or will it be separate? Will they eat are they normal people? They wont just be in jerusalem will they? Sorry I think that the "left behind" series has really given me preset ideas that I dont think are correct so Im rethinking ev erything. last question what does the temple mentioned in the previous passage have to do with the witnesses? just throwing things out there... I am actually studying revelation right now. I have questions on the 144 000 witnesses I'll post that later thanks for the input so far it really helps! In CHrist Evangel Re: The Two Witnesses Literal or Symbolic?, on: 2011/11/15 22:14 The Two Witnesses bring forth the same Message of the Kingdom of Heaven in the Last Generation, and they are hated the same as the Savior. In the begining Yahweh had a plan, the plan was to make man into his own image and likeness Genesis 1:26. Revelation 22:14 is the finishing of the Plan of Yahweh. When the Two Witnesses bring their warning to the world (Revelation 11), that is shown to be the finishing of Yahweh's Plan and the calling up of the Saints. Matthew 24:14Â And this Message of the Kingdom will be preached to all the world by the One who bears witness to all nations; and then The End will come. The Two Witnesses make up the Sixth and Seventh Lamps on the Seven Lamp Lampstand. Who are they? It 's not Elij ah nor Enoch they have already played their part in the plan of Yahweh. Revelation 11:1 Â And there was given me a reed like a measuring rod. And the Malak stood, saying: Rise, and meas ure the temple of Yahweh, and the altar, and its confines; Did you know that as we speak, this prophesy has been fulfilled? the temple has been measured and an exact replica h as been made according to the specifications as shown by the Prophet Ezekiel. A copy has been sent to the Vatican an d to the King of Jordan. Their names are given in the book of Isaiah Page 4/5
However, there is one small problem concerning the two witnesses; the world does not believe them, just as they did'nt believe our Savior when he came. Noah preached 130 years, they did'nt believe him either. Re: - posted by staff, on: 2011/11/16 17:51 Hi Monkz, The literal Elijah of the kings has already played his part in gods plan but the future witness will definitely be Elijah in the sense that John the baptist was Elijah.When Jesus was asked he said John was Elijah even though John didnt say that of himself.so the Elijah of the old testament wont literally come back but another person born of the womb will come in t he power and spirit of Elijah like John did, Yours Staff Re:, on: 2011/11/16 19:53 Very Interesting subject Staff, thanks. Will we recognize them? Re: - posted by EvangelTam, on: 2011/11/16 19:57 hmm i dont know if it will be in the power and spirit of Elijah since John already fullfilled that and there really is no indicati on in the scriptures? WHat is interesting is that though John was in the power of Spirit of ELijah he did not do the same miracles as him that Elisha did... though I agree it could be that the 2 witnesses are people that are super annointed revealed at the proper time... Re: - posted by staff, on: 2011/11/17 6:50 Hi Evangeltam, Their is plenty of scripture that indicates this if you take into account that alot of prophesy in the bible is a pattern rather t han a prediction.if you look at the life of Elijah you will see what the witness is about.also Jesus said of John that he was Elijah(he was dead at this time)and then said that Elijah would (in the future)come and restore all things(john had not ac hieved this). John didnt do miracles as his Job was to point to Jesus not himself. Hi Monkz We will recognise them through the scriptures and the Holy Spirit,yours staff Re: The Two Witnesses Literal or Symbolic? - posted by mguldner (), on: 2011/11/17 8:45 Good bible interpretation practice especially in Revelations, if it doesn't say this is a symbol then its likely literal. :) Reve lation is very deep but it's pretty straight forward when it comes to a lot of the literal/symbolic stuff. Hope that helps :) Re: - posted by ginnyrose (), on: 2011/11/19 6:49 QUOTE: "Good bible interpretation practice especially in Revelations, if it doesn't say this is a symbol then its likely literal. :)" We were taught this in Bible School...and since then I have learned to value this approach to Biblical interpretation. One should compare like scripture with like, but it usually is literal unless indicated otherwise. Too many folks spiritualize prop hecy and that confuses, leaves others thinking they can never understand it because they are not poetically inclined. Got any more questions? I love the book of Revelation...when I feel blue about the world's situation, I love to read Revel ation - it comforts! Page 5/5