16842. (R. RJSHA) inculcation of a national feeling of inferiority..." - My Lord, I see this paragraph hasn't been read into the record, I don't think I need read it. I thought it was in. the record, hut if it isn't I'll leave it there, it is not necessary. Then I want you tc refer to the top of 5 page 3> the first paragraph there, at the bottom of page 3143) "Far from being a year of celeberation..." ending with ".. thus be properly comprehensive in nature"? I have read that. Do you agree with that? I do. 10 Do you agree that that sterns to suggest that the establishment of this South African People's Republic was a matter which was being held out to the youth as being on hand? Something to strive for. As soon as possible? That is so. 15 Then you have the end of the ye..r message by Mji, starting with "Sons and daughters..", line 19, My Lords. Will you just reai that paragraph? It goes to the top of page 3145, My Lord? I have read it. Dc you agree with that statement? I do. 20 And then would you turn to page 5, the end of the speech - at page 3146, My Lords - ais read the two paragraphs at the top of that page - lines 2 to 20 My Lords. Do you agree with those two paragraphs? I do. You sej, Dr. Mji holds out to the people 25 that ten years after the celebration of van Riebeeck Day the youth will celebrate the first anniversary of the true people's democracy in South Africa? That is what he says here. And that is what you wanted the people to 30 believe? That is what he wanted the people to believe!
16843 (R. RjJSHA) That is what you wanted the people to believe? This is Mr. Mji's wish. And that is what you wanted the youth to strive for? This ismr. Mji's wish, that it should "be celebrated, absolutely his wish. 5 On behalf of the African National Congress Youth League in the Transvaal? This was a Christmas or New Year message, written by Mr. Mji for himself and on behalf of his Executive. In his capacity as President? That is so. 10 And you wanted the youth to believe that within ten years time you were going to have a true people's democracy in South Africa? My reading of this would be that Mr. Mji wwanted the youth to be free by that time, if not earlier. 15 And he wanted the youth to accept that? He wanted the youth to struggle for it. For freedom within that time? That is so, or even earlier. The previous paragraph, the second - the 2 0 previous paragraph which you read there on page 5, beginning with the words "Your tasks are formidable, your duty is to bring the workers into our national organisation, to organise them into powerful trade unions and to build powarful national vanguards tead to storm 25 the bastille of baasskap". ^ow that "storming of the bastille of baasskap", is that just political action? It is used hero as a metaphor. A metaphor of intensified political struggle? Against baasskap, that is sc. 30 I want you now to turn to the next article
16844. (R. RESHA) headed "The British Elections". While doing it, bear in mind your statement that Britain itself you regard as a people's democracy. The passage starts...? I "beg your pardon, Mr. Trengove, did I say I regard Britain as a people's democracy? Did I say that? 5 I am sorry, I think you said it is a country hhere people are politically and economically free. Mr. Resha, you don't regard Britain as a people's democracy? I have not used those words. Do you or don't you regard it..? I 10 cannot regard Britain as a people's democracy, which owns colonies where people are oppressed. For that matter, I take it France can't be regarded as a people's democracy? By me. And America? The same applies to 15 America. What colonies do they own? America has no colonies as such, but it is responsible for the maintenance of colonies by countries that have colonics. In fact, I must go further and say that it has kept part 20 of China as a colony. What part of China is that? - - "here Chiang Kai Shek is. Formosa? That is so. And on that basis you say that it is not a 25 people's democracy? Certainly not. And how does it keep these colonies, in what manner does America do that? By financing the countries that have colonics and by creating war bases in these countries. 30 In that sense you say she is in fact on a par
16845. (R. RiHSHA) with othor colonial powers? If not the leading one. And in what countries do you refer to now where these war bases have been established? Tunisia, Kenya, Saudi-Arabia, there may be more other countries, and Japan, Formosa. 5 And do you say it is wrong for a country to have war bases in other countries? Of course it is. Particularly when it is against the people of that particular country. Now the war base in Japan for intance, would 10 that be against the Japanese people? It certainly is against the Japanese people. Would you regard Japan as a people's democracy? I do not know the position in Japan to make a comment. 15 How do you knowthen that the war bases in d apan are established against the people of Japan? I do, because it was after the war. %ve you forgotten the bombing of Hiroshima? Was that in favour of the people of Japan? 20 How are the American war bases being used against the people of Japan? They are being used because the position would bo that the people of Japan cannot struggle for their independence, these war bases 25 will be used against them. You mean the Communists in Japan can't struggle for their indepenlence? I do know, that may be so. Are they struggling for independence? Who are the people in Japan th at can "t? struggle for independence? that are not independent? Who are the people in Japan The people in Japan are the
16846. (R. RESHA) Japanese, Mr. Trengove. Who are the people in Japan that are not free? The people of Japan, the Japanese. I cannot put tags on them. I don't know whether they are communists or not. 5 In what sense are the people in Japan not free? I do not know what the position is now, but I was referring you to the bombing of the people of Japan by the America. When the people in Japan were bombed by the 10 Americans at Hiroshima, was that bombing done from American war bases in Japan? I do not know. I want you totry and apply your mind to this matter, Mr. Resha. In what way are the people of Japan not free because the Americans have war bases in Japan? 15 In the sense that there is no need to have war bases in Japan against the people of Japan. Why do you say that the war bases of America in Japan are being used against the people of Japan? Because I do not know that it was ever the decision of 20 the people of Japan that America should come and create war bases in Japan. Do you think that America acquired those bases in Japan by conquest? I think so. "'hen did that take place? "^uring the war. 25 And are they being maintained by conquest? I do not know what the position is today. You know that why you are upset about American war bases in Japan is because it is a bulwark against Communist aggression in the East? You are 30 more informed about Communists than I am myself, Mr.
16847. (R. R^SHA) Trengove. I wouldn't dispute that from your authority. What other country is not free by reason of the fact that America has war bases in the country* Kenya. But Kenya is a colony? Yes, and it has 5 people who want freedom. * Now take Tunisia. Is Tunisia an independent country? It is today. Are thore American war bases in Tunisia? Th.re may wgll be now. "7e are not discussing today. 10 When you spoke about war bases in Tunisia, what period were you referring to? 1953. At that stage, was Tunisia independent? I don't think it was, I think there was still a struggle. Can you mention any independent has American war bases apart from Japan? country whichl5 There may be war bases in Prance. If youwill give me a chance I will check up the record, I haven't got the record with me here. You say the fact of American war bases disenables the people in that country from being free? In 20 what country. In any country wheru American war bases are established? I did not make a blanket answer. If it is in France, it is in agreement with the government of France. 25 And if it is in Japan, it is not by agreement with the government? It might well have been, but against the masses of the people. Let us return to this document. My Lords, the passage that I want to refer to is not in this portion 30 of the record, but certain- passages-were put to Luthuli
16848. (R. RESHA) at page 13057 Will you just read that first paragraph on page 5? and I want to ask you one or two questions on it? I have read it. This paragraph refers to Churchill, does it not? That is so. 5 -" nd he is described as "this evil genius of war"7 That is so. Do you agree with that description? I do not know about the genius at all, I have no knowledge of him as a genius of war. 10 Would you agree with that description or wouldn't you? I do not know that he was ever a genius of war, Mr. Trengove. Was he an evil genius of war? I do not even know if he was an evil genius of war. 15 At the bottom of the, t same page, you see it says, "This Churchill has again been placed at the helm of affairs in Britain by a politically illiterate, confused and desperate electorate". Is that do you think a proper description of the British electorate? I do 20 no t kno w. What do you mean you do not know? I have said to grou earlier that I have never been to Britain, I have never studied the conditions in Britain, nor have I any knowledge of whether the British electorate is 25 confused or clear. let us just get one thing clear. You have never been in Japan, you have never been in China? Yes. You have never been in Kenya? Yes. But you express yourself about political 30 onditions prevailing in those countries? In some of the
16849. (E. ESSHA) countries that I have a little knowledge of, yes. New, Great.Britain, you have no knowledge of political trends, circumstances in Britain? I have no knowledge as to whether Britain "by a politically illiterate, confused and desperate electorate placed Churchill at the helm of affairs. Would it be correct to say / (CONTINUED ON PAGE 16855).
168 55. R. RESHA Would it be correct to say, Mr. Resha, that although you personally may suffer from a measure of ignorance as to the state of affairs in Britain, that the African National Congress Youth League as a body knew what the conditions in Britain were? I don't think so. You don't think so? No. Can you explain, Mr. Resha, why in your official organ you allow this type of propaganda to be spread amongst the youth? Actually this is what happened with the 'Lodestar's although the 'Lodestar' was an official organ of the African National Congress Youth League in the Transvaal, it published the point of view of individual writers. In fact even the Editorial was the point of view of an individual who at a given time was appointed Editor. Who was the Editor in 1951? I think it was Mr. V.T.Sefora. You were on tie executive at that stage? That is so. And who was the Editor in 1953? I think it was Mr. Andrew Kesane (?). And in 1954? In 1954 I think the same person to my knowle dge. RUMPEF J; Would the Editor sign the editorial article, as far as you remember? No, my lord, he would not sign the editorial article; he would just write the article. What usually happened was thist one of the executive members would be elected editor and distribution manager of the magazine, and everything would be left to him, to get whatever assistance he may choose at a given time, and get contributors to send in articles.
16856* R. RESHA MR. TBENGOVE? So it was the executive that appointed the editor? That is so. And I take it they would appoint someone who knew Congress policy? That is so. And the editorials were editorials on behalf of the executive? The editorials would be expected to reflect the policy of the African National Congress Youth League. Yes....? But I do not know if that was so in fact. As I have already said the editor most of the time was running the entire affair. And, Mr. Resha, when articles were published in the name of individuals, it was the practice to indicate that it was an article by a particular individual which was being published? I wouldn't say that was the custom, because there were articles by individuals, and the names of the individuals are not published. It seems to me it was purely at the discretion of the Editor. Now, Mr. Resha, on account of your lack of knowledge of affairs in Britain you s ay you cannot comment on this statement? No. Can you suggest why would this type of statement be spread amongst the youth, that in Britain Churohill had been placed at the helm by a politically illiterate confused and desperate electorate. What would the purpose of that be? As I say, this was the opinion of the writer of this article and he was conveying his opinion to the readers of this journal. BBKKER J; With what object in mind, Mr.Resha,? Merely to express his opinion of the affairs in Britain, my lord.
16857 R. RESHA (Witness): And if anybody did not think this was correct i he was entitled to write back and say "Your statement is not correct". MR. TRENGOVE: Mr. Resha, turn to the next page, page 6, and just read that first paragraph? I've read it. Just prior to the passage "How otherwise can 5 anyone explain the criminal waste of " - - just prior to that is a paragraph - - there is a sentence, rather, "The Labour Government was merely the Conservative Government turned upside down". That was also dealt with by Mr, Luthuli at page 13057 to 13060. Do you agree with 10 the statement in that paragraph, Mr. Resha, or is it also a case where you don't know? I don't know. You can't say whether you would agree with the view that in effect the Labour Government is really the Conservative Government turned upside down? I wouldn't comment on that. The writer also makes the statement that 'It was never a working class government in power in Great Britain'. You wouldn't like to comment on that? No. Is it because you don't know? That is so, Mr. 20 Trengove. You don't read newspapers of political situations in Great Britain? I do. You don't follow the British Elections in the newspapers? I do. But you say you don't know any of these things? Mr. Trengove, the writer here seems to be giving an analysis of what is taking place in Britain, and I have no knowledge of the analysis he's given here. 30
16858. R. RES HA Mr. Resha, would you agree with the analysis here, that in Great Britain there wasnever really a working class government, because both the Labour Party Government and the Conservative Party Government were really controlled by the Capitalists. Is that what the writer is trying to say? That is what he is saying here. Yes' now would you agree with that on your own knowledge of affairs in Britain, that it's not really a Labour Party or a Conservative Party - - it's really Capitalism governing Great Britain? As I say I know very little, but of my little knowledge the Labour Party is supported by workers organisations, and by workers themselves, and to that extent I'd regard it as a Labour Party, striving to put across the policy of Socialism in Great Britain. In other words you would the writer says here? I would not disagree with what disagree because perhaps he has a profound knowledge of the affairs in Great Britain. But it does not tally with the information I have. Of your own knov/le dge you wouldn't agree? That is so. But, of course, it does explain here and say, 'The Labour Government in power in Great Britain' -- the Labour Government was merely the Conservative turned upside down. How, otherwise, can one explain the criminal waste of man and material in Malaya." That shows why he says it is a Labour Party turned upside down* Now, do you agree that the Labour'Party in the conduct of the war in Malaya was really conducting it in the sense of Capitalist investment and profit?
16859-. R. RESHA I would say that in conducting the war in Malaya it was doing so to preserve the Colonies and to preserve Imperialism. For whose benefit, Mr. Resha? For the benefit of the Imperialists. The Capitalists? I don't know if the two are synonymous. Do you know the difference between Imperialism and Capitalism? I do not know the difference. Do you know the difference between Imperialism and Fascism? I don't know; out what the difference is. I have not studied that, to find Do you know the difference between Capitalism and Fascism? No, I have not studied that. You've never heard, or seen any documents where that was explained? I don't remember; I may have, but I did not study it. Now read the next paragraph starting 'From the class and group - this passage is a portion of the passage appearing on page 314-7 from line 10. Read from there to the end of that article please, Mr. Resha. KENNEDY J; Does that mean, Mr. Trengove, that line 29 is at page 3147? MR. TRENGOVE; Yes, my lord, from line 10 to line 29 on page 3147? I! ve read it, my lords. You see the writer makes the statemsnt there, after referring to the government in Great Britain, "As far as South Africa is concerned there is now absolutely no difference, or very little difference between that government and that of Malan; they are firmly in the same camp". Would you agree with that, in its attitude
168 60. R. RESHA towards the so called oppressed people in Africa 'There is no difference between the Government in Great Britain and the Government of Malan in South Africa'? I agree that is the position, yes. How you see the article concludes by sayings 'Africa must prepare for a really stiff fight ahead and must remember that with Churchill and others of his ilk there can be no compromise. A militant struggle to enable the seizure of power to be effected in the shortest possible time is the only way of handling Imperialists. That is the task to which we are called by the coming into power of the Conservative mob'. Do you agree with that statement? I don't know if I under stand the statement. Well, what is there in that statement that you find difficult to understand? He says 'The Africans must prepare for a real with stiff fight and must remember that/churchill and others of his ilk there can be no compromise. A militant struggle to enable the seizure of power to be effected in the shortest possible time is the only way of handling Imperialists. This is the task to which we are called by the coming into power of the Conservative mob". Yes. Now what is it that you don't understand? He s pea Is of Churchill and other people like Churchill, like Malan? That is so. And their attitude to oppressed people he places on the same basis. Now he says that with these people there can be no compromise. Do you agree with that? In the struggle for freedom against Imperialism? Yes? I agree.
168 61. R. RESHA Andwhen he says 'A militant struggle to enable a seizure of power to be effected in the shortest possible time is the only way of handling Imperialists'. Now is there anything in that sentence that you find difficult to understand?i do not know what he means by a seizure of power, because what we are fighting for in this country is that everyone in this country should take part in the councils of State; they should take part in fashioning the destiny of this country. Mr. Resha, what would you understand by seizure of power? Seizure of power can have two meanings. It can have a meaning that you seize the power, to be in power yourself - that the African people should be in power themselves; and it may mean that seizure of power - - that in that instance we may also take part in the power. How do-you seize power, Mr. Resha? As I say you can seize power by participating, by being part of that power. You share, you take part in the power which one man has himself - - together you share that power. How do you get that power, whether you're going to share it or not; how do you get power if you seize it Mr. Resha? The point is, the word seize does not actually mean you must grab Mr.Resha, it. I want to put to you that this passage suggests that - the taking by force; a seizure of power suggests a taking by force? It may have that suggestion. It may have, yes; people with whom you cannot and if you are dealing with compromise as to the power that they have, you then say 'I am going to seize the power' and doesn't that only mean by force? Not necessarily
16862. R. RES HA by force, no, unfortunately. In this context how can one understand the methods by which the power is going to be seized - this seizure? My difficulty in regard to this sentence is that I do not understand what the writer had in mind. It can be given two meanings, that is my difficulty. It could be a seizure by force and it could be what else? It could be a seizure by taking part. How do you get that power which you want to share with other people?- By struggling for it. Against somebody who doesn't want to compromise? That is so. And ultimately what happens? And ultimately he gives in. He gives in? Yes. And the struggle by which you force him to give in that you say wouldalso be covered by the word seizure of power? That is so. And the struggle by which you force him to give in, in the end you leave him no option; he either has to give in or he has to go under? Or negotiate, so that he must share too. Yes, but he is not a man who wants to negotiate; he doesn't compromise? You may struggle by not ranting to compromise, but the impact of the struggle may force you to compromise. But this section says "There can be no compromise with Imperialists 1 '? That is so. Now if there can be no compromise? There can be no compromise with the Imperialists on our side; we might decide that we are not going to compromise, we'll
16863. R. RESHA struggle to the bitter end, but the Imperialists realising their downfall may decide to compromise. How do you mean, Mr. Resha, 'realising their downfall'; what downfall is there going to be for them which will persuade them to compromise? What downfall cannot there be for them if, as this sentence reads - 'A militant struggle to enable the seizure of power to be effected in the shortest possible time, as the only way of handling Imperialists'. I take it that Imperialists are intelligent people who will seek negotiation if they see they are going down, if they think these people are going to seize power. Yes, but what downfall can there be for them? When the power has been taken away from them.? By struggling. How can it be taken away from them, Mr, Resha But they have the power; they need not give it?-- That is so. Perhaps I should give an illustration of our country. Here we maintain that we can bring down the Government by our forms of struggle; by passive resistance we can render their laws unworkable; by stay at homes, by economic boycott. (COURT ADJOURNE D FOR 15 MINUTES ' ON THE COURT RESUMING; MR. TRENGOVE; Mr. Resha, I want to suggest to you in this last paragraph, at page 6, taking it in its context, what the African National Congress Youth League wanted to convey to its readers by publishing this article was that in fact there should be a forceful
16864. R. RESHA taking over of power in a short time? That may well be so,, but turning from the point of view of the African National Congress Youth League with its policy of nonviolence in the background, it cannot have that meaning. Because in the African National Congress we use the phrase 'seizure of power' - - by that we mean that we can seize power in this country through the electorate. BEKKER J; Do I understand you to mean that it may mean the seizure of power by violence, but to a to member of the African National Congress that/a reader who is a member of the African National Congress or the Youth League it cannot carry that meaning because he knows of the policy? That is my contention, ny lord. Well, now, was this circulated only amongst members or non-members as well? My lord, I would not be surprised if it some copies are bought by people vdao are not members, but they are mainly circulated among the members. But I should imagine non-members also buy these copies. Do you knowwhether it was sold on the streets as for instance any daily newspaper? No, itwasnot sold on the street. It's usually given to the branches of the African National Congress, but I can imagine that interested people who were not members of the African National Congress may buy it. Could you enlighten me on this point. When was it first decided to bring into publication an official organ of the Youth League? And how did that decision come about? My lord, if I remember very well, a decision was taken in 1950 to have a Youth League in the Transvaal, and this was to be an official journal organ
16865. R. RESHA. of the Youth League, to enable us to put across to the youth of the Transvaal the policy of the African National Congress, and secondly, to encourage the youth to write and read. That was the fundamental reason. That was 1950 you say? In 1950, yes. Tell me, what body was it that considered this and took this resolution, or decided to do it? It was the Transvaal Executive, my lord, of the African National Congress Youth League. You were on that body at the time? I was on that body. Who else? Mr. Mandela; Dr. Mgee, Dr.Motane, Lr.Phela, Mr. Sefora - - there may have been a few others who I cannot remember now. Well, was this purely a Youth League body or was it an African National Congress body? It was purely a Youth League body. To put across the policy of the African National Congress, is that what you said? Yes, that was the first thing; secondly, to encourage the youth to write for the journal, to express their own opinions, whether they differed from the policy or not - - and to encourage them to read, and so become thinkers. When that step Was taken I suppose you started working out how you were going to do it? That is so, my lord. And did that then lead to the publication of the African Lodestar? That is so, my lord. And did I understand you to say that the editor was appointed by the Executive Committee? That is so.
16866. P. RESHA Prom time to time?-- Prom time to time. I think you said earlier on when it was put to you that the African National Congress Youth League tried to make the youth realise that violence was the only means towards the end; you said 'No, on the contrary'. I think you indicated that the African National Congress Youth League went out of its way to indicate to the youth that violence was not the means, the proper means? That is so, my lord. When you said that what did you have in mind? Perhaps 'went out of its way' is not a happy phrase, my lords. What I wanted to convey was that it was the express policy of the African National Congress Youth League to struggle in a non-violent manner, and that was the policy which was preached to the youth. Well, now, how was it preached? Was this at meetings or through its journals - - that is what I want to know? To the masses of the youth it w as preached through meetings. And in the 'Lodestar'? As I say the 'Lodestar' was mainly a bulletin for the members of the Youth League. That was to explain the policy of the A.N.C. was it? That was to explain the policy and also it was to encourage the youth to express their views through the columns of this journal. Well, anyway, as far as explaining the nonviolent aspect to the youth, to the mass of the youth, that you say was mainly by way of meetings? Yes. MR. TRENGOVE; Vfhy did you confine that vital part of the education of the youth to meetings; did you not think that your bulletins would also be a useful
16867 R. RESHA vehicle of impressing upon the youth the necessity of non-violent action? We did not think so, my lords, because we realised that not every article in this bulletin would contain the policy of the African National Congress Youth League. Yes, but in your editorials, and in the articles that your responsible leaders wrote for the consumption of the youth, wouldn't the bulletin serve as a very useful vehicle to explain this non-violent policy to the members? My lords, I must concede it would, but that is not how the Youth League looked at it. It felt that this should be a bulletin for the consumption of the members of the youth league and also to enable them to express their feelings, their attitude, without fear, because if it was done we would be able to correct those who go wrong, whereas if you take it for granted that they understand the policy,they have no misgivings about the policy, they might be mistaken. Assuming, Mr. Resha, that one gets an article which is written by somebody perhaps indicative of violent action, would the executive let that go, or would they warn the youth that that article must not be regarded as representing youth league views, and they must be careful not to act upon it? I think the position was that if anyone of us found an article which one felt was not consistent with the policy you would discuss it with the Editor, but insofar as the members of the Youth League were concerned they knew that most of the articles in this journal are individual opinions of the members of the Youth League, Now, when you got articles that may not be
r 16868, R. RESHA consistent with the general policy, and you discuss it 5 with the Editor, for what purpose, Mr. Resha? Eor the. purpose of correcting. And would the Editor then have to publish a disclaimer, or show that that doesn't represent Congress view? That would depend on the Editor. I don't know 10 what his reaction would be. On how many occasions did you find articles in the 'Lodestar' which required this sp cial type of procedure? I personally do not remember that I've ever approached the Editor for any article; but I may have 15 discussed it with my colleagues. You never felt that there was anything that was published in the 'Lodestar' which required a disclaimer from the Congress, as not being consistent with their policy? I do not particularly remember any; it is 20 possible that I did. You see, Mr. Resha, these 'Lodestars' were also used as a basis of education for the youth? That is so. They were constantly advised to read this 'Lodestar', is that not so? That is so. 2 5 BEKKER J; Was that also part of the 1950 decision, or a later one? You mentioned two purposes in 1950; now Counsel has suggested to you that it's also part of the education of the youth? No, my lord, not if I understood Mr. Trengove well - - that a journal 30 like this would normally be used for the education of the youth. I have already explained what we had in mind.. Yes,, the two points? That is so. That other point may flow from those two, my lord. i
16869. R. RESHA Was it also regarded as a medium to e ducate the youth politically? In the sense that the articles were political, yes. MR. TRENGOVEs As I understand your explanation Mr. Resha, and your justification for this passage, it is that no matter what violent implication a statement may have it has always got to be road against the background of the so called policy of non-violence? No, I wouldn't put a blunt answer like that, Mr. Trengove. I would say, referring t o this paragraph for instance, that it is capable of two meanings; that is what I said, but knowing the policy of the organisation, as I do I would give it the other meaning; but I could concede that read by someone who does not know the policy it may give the other meaning, Mr. Resha, then there is a Presidential address delivered at the African National Congress Youth League in December, 19511 at page 7. bottom of page 3147 of the record. That is at the Now, that would have been delivered by Dr. Mgee, is that correct? I think so Now, would you read the second paragraph on page 1, beginning with the word 'Mankind as a whole'. KENNEDY Js Up to where? MR. TRENGOVE% The end of that passage is on page 3149, my lord, line 16. This is JDM.9, Mr.Resha.? I've read it, my lords. Do you agree with that passage? I do. Do you understand it? I think I do. And could you tell me, Mr. Resha, dark and sinister forces in the world that are "These organising
16870, R. RESHA a desperate and last minute fight to defend the decadent and bankrupt civilisation 1. Who were these dark, sinister forces? Those are the Imperialist forces that own Colonies, my lords. And, my lords, your lordships will find at page 3149, line 16, an incomplete sentence. The next paragraph, Mr. Resha. I just want to put the completed sentence to the witness, my lords. "In Africa the Colonial powers of Great Britain, Portugal, Prance, Italy, Spain and their servitors in South Africa are attempting with the help of the notorious American ruling class to maintain their Colonial rule and oppression'. See that, Mr. Resha? Yes, I see that. Now, 'In South Africa', do you say that the South African people are also - - the South African Government are also attempting to maintain Colonial rule and oppression with the help of the notorious American ruling class? The South African Government Yes? Could you please repeat the is? question. You say that as far as South Africa is concerned the notorious American ruling class is also helping South Africa to maintain Colonial rule and oppression? Helping to maintain oppression, in the exploitation of the African people I would say. Yes. The American ruling class are assisting the Government in that. How, Mr. Resha? The American Government has always stood in the United Nations on the side of the South African Government whose policy is to oppress the African people in this country in particular and the non-european people in general.
16871. R, RESHA And would you next turn to the next page - my lords, there is a passage here, portion of the document which has not been read in - - a short passage that I want to put to the witness. Look at the third paragraph on page 8, Mr. Resha? Beginning with the United Party? Yes, the United Party. I just want to ask you a question here. The paragraph concludess "The white South African people who have lost all their moral backbone. The possibility of a liberal capitalist democracy in South Africa is exactly nil. The racialist propaganda among the whites and their desire to maintain what they imagine to be a profitable situation makes it utterly unthinkable that there can be a political allignment that favours a Liberal white group. In any case the political immorality, cowardice and vascillation of the so called Progressives among the whites renders them utterly useless as a force against Fascism. 1 Have you got that passage? I've got it, yes, it begins with White South Africa'? Yes? I've read the passage. Do you agree with that? I don't. This is the Presidential Address, Mr. Resha, of your organisation? That is so. Im which this statement occurs? That is so. And it's published as the Presidential Address?- That is so. Would this be the view of the African National Congress Youth League? It's possible it was, my lords. What do you mean it's possible; it's not
16872, R. RESHA possible, it was? It's possible it was, because I do not know if this particular point was attacked. It was published as a Presidential Address? Indeed it was. Anybody in the African National Congress Youth League reading this Presidential Address is entitled to accept that as representing the policy of the Youth League? Not necessarily. Why not? The President of an organisation, as anyone else in the organisation, can make mistakes; can depart from the policy. 15 Mr. Resha, if this Presidential Address is attacked in this respect, would it have been published for consumption by the masses? If what had happened? If it had been found to be inconsistent with policy, would it have been published for consumption by 20 the masses? The posibility may also be, Mr. Trengove, - I have no independent memory of this Presidential Address, but it is not unthinkable that a Presidential Address may be published before it is read at Conference. When was the conference in 1951? About April. 25 April, 1951? I'm afraid I cannot recollect when. Mr. Resha, whatever your personal views may be I want to put it to you that this was A.N.C.Y.L policy that was being expressed here, and you know that, Mr. 30 Resha; You know that this was your policy and you know that this is what you wanted to make the youths believe? What, Mr. Trengove? By publishing this Presidential Address in your official organ? Andthat means?
16873. R. RESHA Mr. Resha, we've got to the position now that editorials you don't accept a. responsibility for; is that correct? I did not say so. Do you accept responsibility for editorials in your journal? In the sense that the Editor, Mr.Trengove, of this journal was appointed by the Executive - in that sense the Executive must accept responsibility, even of his own negligence; if it did not check on what took place. I merely explained what the position was; I'm not running away from anything. What is it that you don't like in this part of the statement? There is nothing I do not like in this Report, but if you had asked me to comment I would have done so, and said that the phraseology here is too dogmatic a statement. What is too dogmatic about it? "The white South Africans are people who have lost all their moral backbone". I say that is not correct. That is what you wanted your youth to believe, that the whites are a people without moral backbone? Fortunately the youth do not believe that. Do you suggest that this type of thing would promote racial harmony? With or without this passage we have succeeded in promoting racial harmony. I'm not asking you that, Mr. Resha. I am asking you whether you think that this type of passage would promote racial harmony? Read to an unthinking person it might give a number of ideas, but members of the Youth League are people who worry themselves about the struggle, and do not take any statement to mean the policy
16874. R* RESHA of the organisation. They analyse statements and are able therefore to find wrongs in a statement. Do I take it then that reliance cannot be placed on a statement of policy made by the President of the African National Congress Youth League in the Transvaal? You are at liberty to do that. Mr. Resha, would you mind not addressing me, but addressing the Court? Insofar as the Youth League is concerned, Mr. Trengove... Mr. Resha, would you mind addressing the Court - you are not talking to me? I'm addressing the Court. Then talk to the Court? I'm talking to the Court. Don't you want me to look at you? Insofar as the policy, or as far as the members of the African National Congress are concerned, they place reliance on the bona fide of Mr. Mgee when he was the President, and at the same time they were aware that Mr. Mgee was a human being and could make mistakes in his endeavour to expound on the policy of the African National Congress Youth League. So that they would approve of a stab ement like this without...? They would not approve of a statement if there was anything they did not like in that statement. Mr. Resha, I'm putting it to you that you know very well that this was approved at your Conference and that it was published as an approved statement? Mr. Trengove, the position is this; I have not denied that the statement was approved, but we have referred to a particular portion of this statement which perhaps I
16875 R. RESHA did not pay attention to then, as I am doing now, andin that regard I say to you that the statement here is rather too dogmatic. I want you to the last paragraph on that page which has not been read into the record. I'll read it out: "The situation is developing in the direction of an openly police state. The Broderbond ia the centre of the Fascist ideology in the country, but like other things it is itself merely an instrument of the ruling circles which are to be found in all whit parties. The Skeet commandoes are the nuclcus of a future Gestapo. The Acts passed by the Government,in particular the Repression of Communism Amendment fict and the Group Areas Act provide the readymade framework for the establishment of a Fascist State. True to the pattern depicted in the rest of the Imperialist World, South African capitalism has developed into monopolism and is now reaching the final stage of monopoly capital gone mad, namely Fascism'. Do you approve of that statement? I do. Do you understand it? I do. BEKKER Js Does that 'lodestar' bear a date? MR. TREHGOVB; 1951, my lord. BEKKER Jg Is that all? MRo TRENGOVE; December, 1951, my lord. Now what does this sentence mean, Mr. Resha, "The pattern depicted in the rest of the Imperialist world - - True to the pattern depicted in the rest of the Imperialist world South African capitalism has developed to monopolists, and is now reaching the final
1687 6. R. RESHA. stage of monopoly capital gone mad, namely Fascism 1. What does that mean, Mr. Resha? It means that the capital in this country is the preserve of a particular group and to preserve that capital and to maintain it they must bring about measures which will for all times keep the rest of the people in South Africa in bondage; 10 use the police force, use its skeet commandoes, to suppress any movement started by the people of South Africa int rying to improve their lot. When you say that the capital is the preserve of a certain group, what group is that? The white group. The white group? Yes. And you say the white group in endeavouring to preserve its capital goes through certain stages, the final stage being the establishment of a Fascist State? That is so. 20 That was the attitude of the Youth League? That is so. And would that be consistent with the attitude of the A.N.C. as to capitalism in South Africa? The designs of the capitalists in South Africa? 25 Yes? That is so«so that the cause of this Fascist State in South Africa is to be found inthe capitalist structure of our society? Not necessarily, but the Capitalists in South Africa are doing this to preserve their rule. And can they, can the capitalist themselves - do they see any other way of protecting their position, other than the establishment of a Fascist State? Who, the Capitalists? 35
16877. R. RESHA Yes? I don't know if they are seeking another way. This is the way you think they...? This is what we say they are doing. They may be thinking of other ways; I have not discussed it with them. So that, Mr. Resha, the white people are really responsible for the creation of a Fascist State in South Africa? Undoubtedljr. And what is a Fascist State, Mr. Resha? A Fascist State is a state like the one we have in this coun try where a particular group is in power, and in order to maintain that power uses the police, the skiet commandoes and other forces to maintain its power. You see, it says here, 'True to the pattern depicted in the rest of the Imperialist world South African capitalism has developed to monopolism and is now reaching the final stage " How, Mr. Resha, in what other parts of the world has capitalism advanced to these stages until it culminated in the establishment of a Fascist State? We've heard it said that Italy developed to that stage. Well, that's one. You talk about the rest of the Imperialist world? The report talks about the rest, the writer may have had more information than I have. Just to assist the Court in understanding this passage, Mr. Resha, apart from Italy, can you think of any others? Ho. one. You can't? Germany has also been cited as And then at page 9.. but before I leave this
16878 R. RESHA passage, alleged a document was found in your possession to have been found in your possession, Mr. Resha, marked RR.18, called "Economics and Politics in S6uth Africa". Do you know this document? My lords, I saw this document for the first time at the Preparatory Examination of this case, in 1957. You don't know how it came to be in your house? I do not know how. Did you make any enquiries? I never made any enquiries. Prom whom? I don't know from whom. I'm asking you? I couldn't make enquiries from the envelope. Do you dispute that this was taken from your house? I am not disputing it, Mr. Trengove5 all I am saying is this? that I saw that document for the first time at the Preparatory Examination of this case, in Johannesburg, in 1957. Can you explain, Mr. Resha, how it came about that you were not aware that this document was in your possession? I'm afraid I cannot explain, my lords. It is possible that the d ocument was sent to me by post and it may be one of those documents which I did not read. Did you get many documents which were sent to you and which you never read? I couldn't say many, I have never counted any documents I have not read. On political matter? There are many documents I have not read, but I couldn't say how many. You see, the evidence was also that Kathrada also had this document in his possession; you didn't
16879. R. RESHA discuss the origin of this document with Kathrada per- 5 haps? With who? Kathrada, accused No.3? I did. And was he able to assist you as to the origin of it? He did not know where it came from. You see, the second paragraph in this document 10 starts: "Fascism is Imperialism gone mad; Imperialism is the final phase of Capitalism. It is Capitalist ecoa&my when it has grown into monopolistic economy". It's the same idea that Dr. Mgee was trying to express, is it not? It may well be so, I don't know. 15 But you say you can't explain how this document came to you? Unfortunately not. And you can't explain why you never read it? I cannotexplain? Why you never read it? No, I cannot because 20 I've never seen the document until this case. If I had the document rnd I did not read it I'd explain why I did not read it; it may well be that I was busy; but that document I saw for the first time at the Preparatory Exam ination of this case. 25 Now, Mr. Resha, at the top of page 9 there is a paragraph starting, have you got that? "But the development of Fascism..." Yes. RUMPFF Js What is this document? MR. TRENGOVE; It's still the same, my lord. 30 There is a part of this document at the bottom of page 3149 of the record, my lords. BEKKER J; Well, should you not read us what isn't contained here, otherwise we don't know what you are talking about.
16880, R. RESHA MR. TRENGOVE; Yes, my lord, I just want him to read the passage first of all. I could read it, my lords, it may save time. "But the development of Fascism in this country is an indication of the fear that they have for the people; they realise that their world is a dying world, and that the appearance of impregnable strength is a mere cathade. The new world is the one in which the oppressedafricans live; they see before their eyes the growing, mighty peoples movement. The struggles of 1950, when the leaders of the Africans and their allies were fully aware of the weakest link in the chain of white supremacy; the Labour power of the African people is a force which, when fully taxed, is going to sweep the people to power in the land of their birth. True, the struggle will be a bitter one, leaders will be deported, imprisoned and even shot. The Government will terrorise the people and their leaders in an effort to halt the forward march. Ordinary forms of organisation will be rendered impossible. The spirit of the people can not now be crushed, and no matter what heppens to the present leadership newleaders will arise like mushrooms till final victory is won. The people are possessed and then the passage which is in the record, my lords. "The people are possessed of a tremendous potential..." Nov/, Mr. Resha, do you agree with that passage? I do. And was the object of the Congress Movement from this date to tap the labour power in the country and to make it an ally in the liberatory struggle? - The labour power in this country consisted of the members of the African National Congress. Yes, but there were many people, many members
16881. R. RESHA of the working classes who were not members of your organisation? That is so. And you were going to tax the full labour forces of the country to sweep the people to power in the land of their birth? That is so. Now, Mr. Resha, these struggles of 1950 which are referred to I take it are the May Day strike on the 1st May, 1950, and also the 26th June, 1950? That is so. Which was organised by the Africans and their allies? That is so. Now your allies at that stage included the 10 Communist Party, did it not? Our allies on what date? The 1st May, 1950? That is so. With them you organised that May Day strike? That is so. 15 Mr. Resha, just revert to 1946; the Mineworkers Strike. Were you involved in that in any way? No, I was not. Did you know about it? Yes, I knew about it. That, too, had behind it the force of the Communist Party? Yes. 20 And do you know what happened to the members of the Communist Party after their organisation was declared unlawful? Did they stop their political activities, or did they join other organisations, as far as you know? My lords, I am a fraid I have no knowledge 25 as to what happened to the members of the Communist Party., after 1950. Didn't you know any of them? I knew many of them. Before 1950? Yes. 30
1688 2. R. RESHA Such as? Mr. Moses Kotane, Mr. J.B. Marks, Mr. Dan Tshune, Mr. Sopape. Communist member. Any white Communists? I think Ruth First was a And she took part in other organisations after the banning of the Communist Party, do you know? I'm not sure. You don't know? Ho. Mr. Resha, I take it that you accept the position suggested there, that the white people wh went to the extent of developing a Fascist State, to protect their interests? Some white people, yes. They would go to any extent to maintain that position? That is so. Mr. Resha, this bulletin which has been referred to previously, the Youth League bulletin issued by the African National Congress Youth League, Transvaal, do you know that? I have no knowledge of that. You don't know that? No a You don't know that it was ever circulated? No, I have no knowledge. Then I want to refer, Mr. Resha, to a 'Lodestar' of 1953, April 1953, 0RT.23, my lords. The Editorial speaks of "The White Frankenstein", and I want to put it to you, Mr. Resha, that this is also an attack on the white people of this countfy? May I see the document please? BEKKER J; Where does this appear in the record, Mr. Trengove? MR. TRENGOVE; Page 3414 of the record, my lord.
16883. R. RESHA? I've read the first paragraph, it is an attack. Now I'm not so ouch concerned with the editorial, but would you now turn to page 10, that is page 3415 of the record, the bottom of the page, a message from the President of the A.N.C.Y.L. Robert Resha, Robert M.Resha. Do you remember that? I remember sending a message. Yes, would you now just read through it; I'd like to ask you one or two questions on that message? Yes, I've read it. That is the message that you sent, is it not? That is so. And would it also be correct to say that it is directed against the white electorate in this country? It attacks the white electorate. Now, Mr. Resha, this passage at page 3146, line 16, 'The white people of this country know the fundamental teaching of history, that once an oppressed community has been aroused by suffering into action, not even the greatest tyranny can halt them. They now that one day whether they like it or not, with ot without their assistance, the struggling masses of Africa will free themselves' Now, how did you visualise the struggling masses of Africa were going to free themselves without the assistance of the white people? By struggling for their freedom. Against who would they struggle, against the white people? Against the Government. Against the white people? Against the Government. But now the white people constitute...? Constitute the government of this country. Oh, when you say the Government you mean the
16884. R. RESHA white people? I do not mean the same. Well, you are feoing to get your freedom, or you may get your freedom, you say here, without the assistance of the white people? With or without. Now I want to deal with the question of without the assistance of the white people. Now what did you have in mind, Mr. Resha; how were you going to get your freedom without the assistance of the white people? The position might very well be this, my lords, that in our struggle for freedom, we would bring pressure to bear upon the Government, and we might, as has been the case, get the assistance of some of the white people who feel that the Government should change its policy, and act in a way that would make the Government change its policy. There may be a position in which the whites do not assist at all they just remain unconcerned until we have brought the Government to its knees- that may not be with the assistance of the white. Until you've brought the Government to its knees without the a ssistance of the whites? That is so. Now, how would that happen, Mr. Resha? That would happen by for instance embarking on a Defiance of the iniquitous laws of this country, render them unworkable, to a point where the government will not be able to govern. Buw what point is that, where the government will not be able to govern? Where the government cannot do an ything about the situation. And before that happens I take it you visualise bloodshed on a countrywide scale? Our policy is abso-
lutely clear, with regard to that; our policy is perfectly clearly a non-violent one. Mr. Resha, the white people, if they remain completely indifferent to your struggle, they are not going to assist; take this position now? Yes. They are not going to assist? That is so. Assist you? That is so. You take it that in those circumstances they might assist the government? No, not at all; not as I read this. Now, what would the government do to maintain its position before it capitulates to your pressure? That I leave to the government. But what did pu have in mind would this brutal Government do before that position arises? There is nothing that a brutal Government cannot do, and therefore I could not say what it could do and what it could not do. I was more interested in carrying out our struggle. Mr. Rehsa, did you visualise the position that not having the assistance of the whites, and having a brutal government with which to contend, that before it succumbs, the Government would call out the army and the police to break your liberatory movement? Are the police not white? If we are brought to a position where the whites do not assist? They don't assist you? Neither the Government. Oh, I see, Mr. Resha, is this the construction that you place on this paragraph; they know that one day, whether they like it or not, with or without
1688 6. R. RESHA the assistance the struggling masses of Africa will free themselves? That is so- Do you suggest that this paragraph conveys that the Government would also not have the assistance of the white people? That is so c Do you seriously suggest, Mr. Resha, that this paragraph suggests that on the one hand you would have the non-^white masses in their s truggle for liberation and on the other hand you'd have something called the Government not consisting of white people? The white people of this country know the fundamental teachings of history, that once an oppressed community has been aroused by suffering into action, not even the greatest tyranny can halt them. They know that one day, whether they like it or not, with or without their assistance, the struggling masses of Africa will free themselves. Now, Mr. Resha, I want to take you through this. The white people know the fundamental teachings of history, that once an oppressed community - - now that oppressed community would be the non-whites in this country? That is so, Once the oppressed community has been aroused by suffering into action, not even the greatest tyranny can halt them. What does that mean, Mr. Resha, that not even the greatest tyranny can halt them? The Government. That is the tyranny you visualise there? Yes. In what way is the Government...? Through its laws and through its police. And through its army? That is so.
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