History of the John Henderson and Agnes Johnston Kirby Family. Tape #121

Voices from the Past History of the John Henderson and Agnes Johnston Kirby Family Interviewee: James J. Kirby May 3, 1970 Tape #121 Oral Interview conducted by Harold Forbush Transcribed by: Tia Aucoin February 2007 Edited by: Lisa Thurber March 2009 Brigham Young University- Idaho

Harold Forbush: Side one. The history of the Upper Snake River Valley. It s my privilege this Sunday afternoon the third of May, 1970 to be in the home of James J. Kirby at 459 Fisher Blackfoot, ID. Incidentally, Mr. Kirby is my brother-in-law, being the brother of my wife, Karen. Today it will be our purpose to delve into a little of the history of the Kirby family and more specially, the story of their integration from Scotland, in the old world, to Salt Lake City, to the New World in the early teens. Now Kirby, if you would kindly state your full name, date and place of your birth. JK: My name is James J. Kirby, I was born December 19, 1910 in Scotland. HF: Brother Kirby, could you tell us about your father who was, if there was something about, him and his background, Mr. Kirby. JK: My father s name is Don Henderson Kirby. He was born in a town of Emmit [indaudible] 19 th day of May 1880. His father was Don Henderson Kirby, his mother was Marlot Kirby. HF: Now, in telling a little about your father, you remember him well enough and through your mother you ve learned enough about him. What about his characteristics; his moods and his aspirations, and these things. What can you tell us about your father? JK: Well, my father was a street car driver before or shortly after they were married and he did odd jobs before that. He worked on [inaudible] with his father. My father was a pleasant man, very jovial. He liked to entertain. He imitated Harry Lauder quite a bit and he was always singing and whistling. He was, one evening when he was coming up the street car, he heard the missionaries talking and as he came home to his wife he said, I guess I heard the greatest profitable sermon in my life. The next night, he stopped to hear the same missionaries and Brother James Johnston of Blackfoot, Idaho was a missionary who was speaking and this convinced my father the fact that the gospel was true and from that time on he started to investigate the gospel. HF: From the time that your father first heard of the gospel through the lips and missionary efforts of Brother Johnston. Who and how long did it take before he was baptized? And do you have any idea if it was weeks or months or even maybe years, or so? JK: Well, It was about one year from the time that he heard the gospel because he was very active with Brother Johnson and going out on the street meetings speaking on different occasions. He was a very learned man. He liked to read quite a bit and he learned the gospel very fast. HF: Did he bring the gospel; was it brought into the home at that time? JK: No. During the time the they were investigating, my mother worked at her friend s house and she heard one of the patriarchs give a lady a patriarchal blessing and she knew that this man was a man of God. It convinced her more or less that the church was true. 2

From that time they both started to investigate the gospel. My father however, was the more active man, being more out in public and no doubt he did more reading of the gospel than my mother did. But they were both baptized about the same time. HF: And that would be about what year? JK: That d be about the year 1909, 1908. HF: 89. JK: 89. HF: You know, in Europe in the last century, when so many heard the gospel, the call to Zion, had a tremendous effect on new converts. Did this same spirit to come to Zion seem to prevail upon your parents? JK: It prevailed upon our father quite a bit because his parents died when he was in his teens and he was an orphan and he was more or less unsettled in life the way I would take it. He wants to see the new United stated of America, and he sailed on the Lusitania, on February of 1912, and came to McGill, Nevada first. Excuses me didn t come east, he stopped in Salt Lake for some time. Then he helped in odd jobs and one time my mother said he, we currently rely on the Salt Lake temple. Then he went through McGill, Nevada, working in the smelter there. HF: What was the plan of your father and Sister Kirby? Was his plan to come up JK: Well he was here a year before my mother came. My mother and four children came, left Scotland and they came over on, my mother, my brother John, my sister Agnes, and my brother George, and me. Three, two and George was an infant at that particular time. And Brother Joe Jenson from northern Idaho was on a Swedish mission and we were put in his custodian to help us come to Salt Lake City. HF: This was rather I suppose a small ship. Do you know anything about the particulars of the ship? JK: I don t know what the size of the ship was. HF: Of course the one which your father came over you say the Lusitania was one of the larger ships, the same Lusitania that later sunk. Was it the Germans? JJK: I am not familiar. JF: And here, if it s the same one as a troop ship and I think if I am correct was that your father would come to America and earn enough to meet needs. 3

JK: Yeah. My mother came in 1913. HF: 13 yes. And after [tape skips] meeting place Tooele. JK: In McGill, Nevada. HF: In McGill, Nevada. JK: Yes. HF: Oh. JK: Now, we came over on this area [Inaudible] you can t put those children on the bunk bed. [Inaudible] Apartment C and from that time on she always remained down in cabins. And just before we landed, one of the stewardesses came down and asked mother if she was a spiritualist. Mother said, No, I m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. She said why? She said Well, when you came on the ship you said the ship wouldn t rock and it was had been known as the most pleasant voyage this ship has ever had. I believer Mother is more of a spiritual minded individual and she moved I believe with more or less the spirit of the Lord with her. HF: Now- JK: When Mother left, landed in Monte, Canada then came to New York; she thought maybe it was Sunday because all of the train bells were ringing. She said, My gosh, this must be a religious bunch of people with all these bells. She thought they were church bells instead of all the train bells. When we got to Salt Lake, I believe we landed in Salt Lake in February the fifth and that following day, well, February fifth we went to the Salt Lake Temple. My mother was sealed to my father that particular time and we four children and then February sixth, we went back to McGill, Nevada where he was employed. HF: What was his employment there in McGill? JK: He was working as a, in the mines, smelter in McGill. HF: I see. Well now, Brother Kirby, we ve considered your father and his background just a little. Would you now let us consider your mother, our, her maiden name, her full name, and her date and place of birth, and something about her background? JK: Well, my mother was Agnes Johnson Kirby and she was born the 15 th of November 1800. Her family consisted of about ten children. She had one sister and three brothers alive that I know of married to Kate Duncan, known as Kate Duncan. She had her brother James Jonston, John Johnston, and [inaudible] was brother Joseph Johnston. Her mother joined the church first. Her mother called her she said, Agnes, if I ever know my 4

children would ever heard of Brigham Young in a foreign land I d sure warned against him. At this time my mother and her sister joined the church and my father and his brother-inlaw, James Ranchond. My father was married at the time when he joined the church. My brother in law wasn t married. So he joined the church before my Aunt Kate. As I understand it, James Ranchand was the man who found fault with the church quite a bit. My father upheld the church in his principles and his ways of living and as these two girls would go visit their mother, she would ask them questions and she found that there was quite a bit of deceit within the two and she really didn t know which child to believe, because she said after these two girls joined the church, the more deceit from their family than there ever was in all their married life. But I remember my father was very anxiously engaged in the church but as my grandmother on my mother s side, my mother decided to come to come to Salt Lake City. She wasn t very eager coming to America because she lost one son at the age of six months and she had a fairly good home her father and mother were there and couldn t see why she should leave. HF: It d be quite a challenge, wouldn t it, to confront one? JK: It was quite, quite a challenge at the age of the children she had; four, three, two, and one. HF: To start out. JK: To start on the voyage. One day, as she had a lady helping her with the children and she said knowing my mother by her first name and she said, Agnes, if ever you go to America and find your husband with another woman now don t blame your husband, blame Agnes Johnston. HF: That d be a tough thing to consider. James, there was something about the Johnston family I think that we should know, that of the occupation. Can you tell us something about your mother s brothers and their business, their occupation? JK: Well, being close to the sea, my Uncles were in the ship building yards and that they were all became sailors. My one Uncle is, when I met him, he was still working in the ships and refrigeration and air-conditioning. I believe it was two of my Uncles were sailors. My Uncle James was a sailor and he retired as a sailor in the sea. My grandmother Johnston was a very industrious woman. They had little store and my mother helped in the store quite a bit before and after she was married and for just a little shop that they had. On my mother s side, my mother liked to work in a, she worked in a hat-making factoring and a clothe-making factory, and she also made cigarettes. They were industrious people. HF: Of the middle class people? JK: Of the middle class people, yes. I d say the middle class. 5

HF: Well, now, after your mother arrived in America in Zion, were the parents and the family at that time happy and contented with the choice and the decisions that they had made? Did they find employment and the means wherewith to get along fine? JK: Well, I guess it was hard for my father to find employment. One time I heard my mother say quite often if they had to do it over again, she didn t think she d come to America because it was hard make a living. At times she said she only had five dollars a month to keep her family not enough money to buy soap to keep them clean, let alone to feed them. My father traveled around quite a bit because work was getting fierce. On January the seventh, 1914 I had a sister born in Salt Lake City and then I had a sister born in the 3 rd of February in 1916 in Tooele. In 1917, I had a brother, Andrew born and in 1919 my younger sister, Florence, was born in Blackfoot. This gives you an idea of the tremendous space and different towns that we were in at the time. HF: What induced your parents, as you understand it, to go out in Tooele? JK: Again there was working with the Millers. My father studied the I.C.S. course and became a metallurgist. He liked metal pot well. He liked to be a miner. I think he liked that kind of work. Now I don t know who was indirect or who was a part of the metal art instigator of bringing him into this type of work. I found one of the case and I remember my mother saying that she prayed unto the Lord one time, how to get out of her debts and difficulties. She wasn t used to charging things and people said, you might as well might as well run your place, and many a times he did run a bill up and my mother says well, how can I get out of my debts and my difficulties? and the answer came back to my mother and said pay your tithes and offerings. I believe at that time my mother wasn t a very conscientious tithe-payer that she said the first dollar she got she paid her tithing to her bishop and the bishop said, Now, sister Kirby, you can t afford to pay tithing and she said after I have been commanded of the Lord to pay tithing no man can stop me paying tithing. HF: James- JK: On the Word of Wisdom, my parents were in their nationality, or the same nationality that it was hard for them to be able to give up their tea drinking. Paul was a smoker and the morning, the day before he was baptized, he said well, I m not going give up smoking for any individual because it s a part of my living. Then the very morning that he was baptized he said well, I ve decided if I join the church I will join it wholeheartedly or none and he gave up smoking at that particular time. Then on the coffee drinking or tea drinking, my mother had a vision one time or a dream and was told to read the book of Daniel. Then she said, in the morning, she said Jack, I had a dream and the dream told me to read Daniel. And so as my father returned from work that evening, he said well Agnes, did you read Daniel? She said Yes. What did you get out of it? She said I got the Word of Wisdom. She said if Daniel could read and interpreted King Nebuchadnezzar dream by having bread and water, she said I believe I can live on bread and water. And we don t have to have our tea from this time on. And 6

those were some of the things that were outstanding as some of the principles of the gospel as I understand them, came from my parents. HF: Isn t that wonderful. James, after your parents and family had lived there in Tooele for some while. I m not sure just what years in such a matter. What were the inducing circumstances? What were the factors that encouraged them to come clear up here into Eastern Idaho, to Blackfoot? JK: Well, after I left Tooele I went to Manor. I have never been back to those places. I d like to go back to some of those two little towns to see what they re like, and to see what my parents seen in those towns and the places which they lived. I know that s where I started school if I can remember right I believe it was in Mammoth, and we went to school for half-a day. Now the reason I believe that we came to Blackfoot was my mother had a dream one time and she said she was staring up at the sky into heaven as it was in an airplane. Back in the years of 1917, I don t imagine the airplanes were too clinical at that time and the vision said to sister Kirby, where would you like to land? And where would you like to live? And she said, I would like to live in Idaho. And mother always wondered why my father left to McGill Nevada to Tooele and Mammoth I guess it was in the first part of the year 1919, around April of May my father and my oldest brother, John came to Blackfoot and got employment on a sugar factory and they stayed with a family of Jonathon Edwards who was also an employee at the sugar factory. HF: Let s see now, James. Let s check that date just a minute and the last two girls, excuse me, the last boy and Florence were born at Blackfoot? JK: No. Andrew was born in Mammoth. HF: In Mammoth. JK: Utah. HF: Oh. And so it was as you state in 1919 that your parents did come to Blackfoot. JK: Yes. HF: Okay. I just wanted to double-check on some things. JK: It s at the first time, the first part of the year, I think it was April or May my father came up. He came up several months before my mother did. Now we as a family, my mother Agnes, myself, George, Violet, Catherine, and Andrew came up to Blackfoot and we landed in Blackfoot the 24 th of July, 1919. I can remember that very distinctively. We went to the city park and as my father and mother were looking for home, for a house to live in. We children stayed at the park and I can remember that was the first watermelon we had and there was a man named, Mike Bischoff and he more or less entertained us as a family while we were there because seeing six children running around I guess he wondered what kind of- 7

HF: Had you arrived by train? JK: We arrived by train, yes. And about, then my parents found a home or house in the back of a sugar factory, a two-roomed house HF: Would that be part [inaudible] of the main part of Blackfoot now? JK: [Inaudible] on highway 191. HF: And It would be- JK: And it (?) [inaudible] JK: Now, we landed here in July then sometime in the late part of September [inaudible] from a well. [inaudible] Dig a little hole. [inaudible] and we used to grow maybe four blocks or two blocks, three or four blocks for water. [inaudible] I know I was sick, my mother told me I was sick quite a bit and I was-they didn t expect me to live three different times before we went to the hospital. Now they called the doctor in one time because the family became sick, my father became sick and they called the doctor and the doctor said to my mother, this one s sick. This one s sick, and this one s gonna be sick and it looks like you re gonna be sick, too. And we landed in the county hospital. At that time it was run by a lady named Mrs. Oseul. She was a widow lady and she had three children as I remember. HF: Who was the attending doctor as you recall? JK: We had doctor Patry as one of the best positioned and I believe he was the county commissioner at that time. And then we had Doctor Simmons and as we were about ready to leave I know he was the doctor my mother was with Florence, when Florence went into the doctor at that particular time. But the striking thing with me was there were my father, my oldest brother and oldest sister, and myself and Violet in the hospital. The only one of us that weren t sick was Katherine and Andrew. So the five of us, five children were in the hospital and with my father and I can remember distinctly the night my father passed away. Now, I don t remember whether it was the night before that we children were singing in front of the door and we called to our, the nurse and we called to mother, and my father said, don t bother. I ll be alright. And my father was standing in front of this store the next day about 9:00 at night in September 15, 1919 that we were aware that my father had passed away. And we remained in the hospital quite some time after that because we all had to learn to walk well. In fact, Florence was born in that same hospital and we were still in the same hospital. And when I came to give Florence s name, Brother Royland Jefferson, Bishop Williams, and Brother Levi Christiansen, came to name Florence and they asked us if 8

we d trade Florence for an Idaho potato. And we told them no. We didn t think we d trade her off for a potato. But to entertain the family, Florence s name was put into a hat. There were three names suggested. There was Ruth, Valentine, and Florence Nightingale. And Florence Nightingale was drawn out of the hat. Now, to me when Florence was born I think that was the first time that my mother had written back to her mother to tell her that my father had passed away. Florence was born in the hospital six weeks after my father passed away. HF: And you children were still, some of you children, were still in the hospital with- JK: We were all still in the hospital. We couldn t walk out. We couldn t walk. And then when we walked, we had to learn to walk. The snow was on the ground that year when we would walk in the hospital. But my mother had written to her mother back in Scotland, and told her that her husband, Jack had passed away and that she had a young child named Florence Nightingale. And she said Agnes, you better get in touch with the British council. Immediately and have them send you back home. And she said, I don t know if I could, but this a young girl most of brought her name with her. Now I don t believe my grandparents believed in the pre-existence because my mother said that was the first time that she had ever known her mother to say this girl much about her name brought her name with her, that it comes from another existence. Well, they sent a letter from my Uncle Andrew who did most of the corresponding for my grandmother. Mother wrote back and said no, she didn t think she would go back to Scottland because she felt there was more opportunity here for her and her family than there would be back home. And so I remember my Uncle sending us $50 to my mother as to help her on her way. Mother felt this way. She said, Well, if the Lord has taken my provider, the Lord will provide. And I don t believe I ve ever heard my mother say at anytime why should this come to me as an individual? She felt that she had been shipwrecked and felt that God was at the helm and He would direct the ship with His hands [inaudible] If my mother s faith ever wavered [inaudible]. HF: But she left the hospital with the care of a newborn baby and five children just recovering from Typhoid Fever, this dread disease. She must have had a tremendous responsibility knowing that there were eight children to take care of and how did she ever do it how did she ever handle that? Surely you must have some comments. [inaudible]. But how did things work out, James? JK: Well, I don t, I don t remember just the first two or three instances after my mother had finally come home from the hospital. But I do remember we went back to this little house in the back of the sugar factory. [inaudible] if I were to help that family out [inaudible]. I can remember my mother said as she moved back into this little house in the back of the sugar factory, there was a man who lived there that said Oh, you are Mrs. Kirby. You are the one that used to live in Mammoth, Utah. Mother said Yes and she said, I hope there s a ten-foot wall built between you and me she said Because I don t care to associate with individuals at this particular time. This man, as we were leaving Mammoth to come to Idaho, this particular individual went through the judge or court and told the court that we were leaving and that we were gonna take some of our 9

furniture. Bu the furniture wasn t paid for but Mother had made arrangements for this particular thing to pay for them and to move them. But this little neighbor thought he was going to do a just deed and see if he could, so we weren t gonna take the furniture. But the first thing when we were in town was this particular individual living next door that wasn t helping her out and he was more or less or a drawback. But not particular instant I don t know other than what was told to me on those that particular instance. But when we, they moved us down to in town, we lived in this house right smack in the middle of the highway it seems. We were on Bridge Street. You could look down Bridge Street and all you could see was this house right in the middle of the road. And I think the road just made a bend there over a big canal known as the Westside Ditch. And it made a bend there that s where our house was and it was a four-room house and it was owned by Mary Johnson, another widow. The house all boarded up. There was no lights, no water in the house. It wasn t modern. We had an outhouse. We had to build an outhouse out in the yard. This house was in a big field. Oh, it must have been a good ten or 15 acre field it was in. There was no other house around, just a big fence and we had to go across the highway and over to a family, Birdgrass, was the lady s name. We had to carry the water for her for the first year, until spring had come and the water thawed out and we could get water piped through the house. And mother wasn t used to kerosene lamps or gas lamps and she was afraid of the lamps because of her short sidedness and with the children being as small as they were, she tried to- the first thing she tried to do was to get the power company to put electric lights in this house that it might be a little safer for us. Another thing I could remember is mother not being very well acquainted with the country, and not being very well acquainted with the town. She had to get out and so she bought a post office box, a mail box in the post office just to give her something to draw a pound with a pound for. Knowing that she didn t have anyone to write to her, and it took a good month to get a letter back from her mother, who was in Scotland, so it was just a means to an end that she might get out and see what the town was like. And, well, the Relief Society was good to Mother. They tried, they meant well, they felt good and helped us out, but it was as one lady said, Mother looked like a hen with a bunch of little chicks and where the eldest boy was 12 years old, shortly after his father died, and eight children under that age that was quite a handful. HF: Tremendous. JK: Yeah. The Relief Society, as I remember it gave Mother a carpet loom and it filled up half of one of the rooms and we had, oh, people brought in rugs and we had to tear these different rags up and make strips of rugs out of them and make rags out of them. And Mother was making these rag rugs and one lady said Oh, it ll be half a bit of yarn for making these rugs and mother went over to one of the neighbors and said what a little bit She said well, that s just half a quarter. Mother wasn t familiar with the slang words of the American money and she was not sure. So when she discovered it was only 12 cents for a yard of carpet she decided she was gonna get the carpet loom out and she told the Relief Society they had to get the carpet loom and if they didn t, she d burn it. 10

She d take it out and burn it herself because she couldn t be tied down with something like that. HF: It really wasn t a means to a livelihood at all. JK: There wasn t a means then. A livelihood either. But well, then the Relief Society came by again one particular occasion and Mother, I guess, was more or less homesick and she walked up and down town, maybe two or three times, and I m not sure how many times and people passed her on the street all the time. I could remember distinctly the younger children were dressed in long legged underwear, their underwear came down to their ankles and came down to their wrists. And as the Relief Society came in that particular day they chastised Mother and told Mother that the children had to be dressed. And it wasn t a proper way for the children be running around in their underwear. Then they took my oldest brother aside and said John They said, Do you know your Mother s not doing right oughta be ashamed must be doing something different. And no doubt the house was dirty and untidy and the children gave Mother inspiration at that particular time,you better not just mop the floor, you better get down on your hands and knees and scrub this floor because it s dirty. Mother never could use the mop because she couldn t see that far to mop the floor. At that particular time, she decided [inaudible] so we had a bulletin in the news [inaudible]. The bulletin for an office job and Mother got a job working on the law offices. It was in the top of the shop at that particular time unless you re passing on [inaudible] theater just being built. And as you re passing to the theaters, she went in and said Mr. May I-have you got a custodian into the filming? He said No, it s really not been completed She said Well, then you ve got a custodian. May I be the custodian? And the man said Well, when the building s completed I ll see what goes on And some other got- HF: And the job man was who? JK: Paul NewMorgant. HF: Paul NewMorgant. JK: And so he gave Mother the job of cleaning this theater as it was opened up. But everything Mother didn t like about cleaning the theater, the theater ran seven days a week, and she had to work Sundays. And she decided she d get more law offices if she d quit this job as taking care of the theater. And as she s cleaning the theater, Mother was very particular. She was cleaning these posts. They have the awning after the theater and one of the businessmen came by and seen her cleaning these posts and one of them passed by and said, Ms. Kirby stop and clean those posts. I think you could clean one of my offices. And this is Doctor Hodge. Mother worked a lot of good doctors. Dentists and Lawyers, and that s the way she made her livelihood. HF: And that pretty well carried through all the time that you children were growing up. JK: Yes. 11

JK: Up until, well, time of her death. JK: Till the time of her death, she was still working. HF: Still working. JK: The last job she had was with John W. Jones and she had that job up until the time she died. She got that job the 23 rd, Washington s birthday, in February of 1923. And Mother passed away in 1956. HF: Now, James, in reviewing the and giving credit to the businessmen in Blackfoot, how would you characterize the attitude that they showed towards the Kirby family, the business people of Blackfoot? JK: Well, in the first place, I believe that they respect Mother in the very beginning because they knew that she was trying to maintain her family and keep her family close together and it wasn t only, well, the business men were of different denominations. We had Mrs. Johnson and Mrs. Rhyme, who ran the Golden Rule store and they kept Florence and Andrew pretty well clothed. They were the two youngest children and Mother said that a lot of times that taking the community as a whole on no religion, she said that it is a very perfect community to live in. It didn t make any difference whether they were Catholics, Mormons, Baptists, Methodists, or Presbyterians. Didn t make any difference what loge they belonged to, whether the Elks, whether it s American Legion, or whether Atery Hall or the Odd Fellows. HF: In those years of Blackfoot, the Mormons I suppose, would they be kind of a minority element, religiously speaking, or they surely wouldn t be in majority a majority influence at that time were they? JK: Well, I believe, I believe they d be at least fifty percent because there were two wards here. There were two wards. There was a First and a Second Ward, one at the South side of town and one on the North side. So they were pretty well scattered and pretty well represented. Fifty percent I d say they would be. HF: But there were many other churches representing including the Catholic Church. JK: There were Catholic, Presbyterian, the Baptist, and the Lutheran Church, yeah, different organizations. HF: James, being a member of the family have heard and realized that the children commenced to work quit early and had a little responsibilities I know in the bakery shop. My wife has talked about you people working there. But in your case, what was your 12

first job, first paying occupation job that you were given as a youngster? When was it about and then how old were you when it happened and who provided the job for you? JK: Well, I don t know exact to the year, but one morning at 6:00, Mother and I was walking up town to- 6:00 in the morning it was- to go clean this office for the country clerk and Terry Spencer ran the Mutual Dairy at that time, the Mutual Creamery Station, and he said Sister Kirby, can I have one of your little boys help me because I m shorthanded today and Mother said Yes, after James has his breakfast he can come help you. Now this is about in the year 1923 as far as I can, well, it d be about the year 1921. 13