(^ -^??- SOHP Series: Women's Leadership and Grassroots Activism TAPE LOG PRINCIPAL CHIEF JOYCE DUGAN Interviewee: Interviewer: Interview Date: Location: Tape No.: Topic: Subject Headings: Comments: Joyce Dugan, Principal Chief of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians Alicia J. Rouverol May 29, 1996 Council House, Cherokee, NC 5.29.96-JD.l (cassette 1 of 1) (approx. total length: 45 min.) An oral history interview with Joyce Dugan, Principal Chief of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians. Chief Dugan is the first woman to be elected as Principal Chief of the Eastern Band of the Cherokee. This interview focuses on her campaign for office and on the links between Cherokee women's traditional roles and their community and political leadership. women's leadership; grassroots activism; Cherokee politics; campaign; impeachment; constitution; Tribal Council; cultural preservation; traditional Cherokee gender roles. Only text in quotation in verbatim; all other text is paraphrased, including the interviewer's questions. TAPE LOG [Cassette 1 of 1, Side A-TapeNo. 5.29.96-JD.l] 010 [Opening Announcement] 015 Can she talk about being elected as the first woman Principal Chief of the Eastern Band of the Cherokee, about her campaign, what it means for the community?: They've come out from a dark period in their history; the previous chief was impeached before she took office. There was a lot of turmoil, defeatism, throughout the whole community. There didn't seem to be any way to make change. She was the Director of Education, the counterpart to the Superintendent in a public school, during five years of that period. She was finding herself having the same defeatist attitude. She was in her position, satisfied, felt the school was making progress.
2 The tribe held its first primary in its history. Up until last election, they had a general election every four years in September. This year the Tribal Council voted to begin having a primary, which would eliminate all the candidates but two. "I had people start to come to me saying, 'You ought to run for Chief Well, initially-my husband had talked to me about this for quite sometime, for about eight years. And I had always said, 'Well, you know, when I retire from the school, maybe I'll run for Council and enter politics that way. But only when I have time to give. "But anyway, there were people that were beginning to approach me saying, 'You ought to run for Chief.' And at first I would laugh and say, 'Yeah, sure.' Somewhere in there, though, a couple of people had made the comment, 'Well, you can't complain unless you get in there and try to make a difference.' And I started thinking of that, thinking, 'Golly, how am I going to live with myself if--. You know, I have these people who are supportive and think that I have a chance of winning, and then a year down the road, I'm sitting in the back again grumbling that nothing has changed. I won't have that right to do that unless I do try.' 051 "But anyway, I was not convinced that I should do that. And after much soul searching and praying and agonizing, I in fact entered the race reluctantly. And I say reluctantly because I had never been in the world of politics. And at that point, I thought, maybe with my background and my education, my background in administration, maybe I have a purpose here, and that purpose is to run a campaign to bring others up to a different level of campaigning. In the past we had campaigns run on improving health, education, and welfare. I think we've all heard it in the world of politics. And we've accepted that, but we've never called our candidates to task to say, 'Now, but just how? How are you going to improve education? How are you going to improve welfare-those other issues? Give us specifics.' "So I did enter the race. And I got a small contingent of women who came out on day one and said, 'I want to work for you.' I didn't have to ask anyone. They just showed up. So I had, I think there were ten good, solid workers, and only a couple of men. Now there were men who were supportive in doing things, but as far as the working committee I only had two guys that were regular. "And I let them take off with it. All this time, though, we started our campaign and we started being very specific. In raising issues, I never attacked my opponent or what he was doing or my opponents, at that time. All I did was start to raise issues and how we might solve it. At any rate, we continued that through the primary, which was in June of last year. And I cannot emphasize enough that I did not in my wildest dreams expect to win. But I thought,' By golly I'll make a difference and I'll make the other candidates start addressing issues the same as I am, and maybe that'll get the voters to start asking questions when these people come to visit them, you know.' "We had the primary-i can't remember the date in June, it escapes me now-and I won. There were ten candidates for the office, and I was the top vote getter. In fact, the incumbent and I were the top vote getters. And so I knew then my purpose was changed. It was not just to raise issues but it was to proceed onward and to fight the battle to win. Because I felt strongly that I had to win this one. "In the meantime, though, there was an action being taken by Tribal Council, an investigation was being done, conducted. After the election on September the 7th of'95, I was-i won the final election. The former Chief in mid-september was impeached;
3 even though he had not won, he was still impeached." (AR: "Had that happened previously?") JD: "Never." (AR: "I didn't think so.") JD: "It had never happened. Not with this tribe." 092 "It goes without saying, as I said, what I inherited. It was a frightening experience because there were a lot of people that said, 'You've never been in politics.' And I had not. I had served on the School Board at one time. However, I felt that my role as the Superintendent of the school system had prepared me somewhat for the political world, because there's politics in that, in that you're in charge of children. And that's probably the hottest seat in any county or tribe or wherever, because people really are sensitive about their children." 099 Winning the primary was a great surprise to many people. But people underestimated the impact she has had on many of the children who are now grown, voters. "We did an analysis of the voters. And the greatest number of voters in this past election were the 30-39 year old, they were the largest number. And more women voted." 107 "I think we mobilized that young voter, and they were the ones who were ready to say, Yeah, we can change.' I knew that a lot of the older people were reluctant to make a change, not only because I represented a tremendous change from the previous Chief but I was also a woman. And I knew there were naysayers that said, you know, 'The Cherokee Tribe does not need a woman chief.' They were there and I know they were there; but I was very surprised at the number of people who I would have thought who have felt that way that didn't, that came out to support me. "So any way, for the September election we had a 72 percent voter turn-out. And I think it was just the timing was right. And I really believe and I'm a firm believer in this, and I tell people this, and I don't want it to sound corny or-. Well, we can say spiritual. But I feel strongly and I still feel to this day that there was a reason that I ran, and it was a higher power than me that led that, that led me to make the decision, number one. Because I can remember just being sick when I made the decision when I should have been confident. But it was almost like I had to do it in order to satisfy myself inside. And you know, I can remember standing at my kitchen sink washing dishes and praying, thinking, 'Now, I can't do this.' And another voice saying, Yes, you're going to do it.' It was almost like it was out of my hands. Like I said, I don't want to sound-i don't know if the word's corny. But that's the honest truth." 127 AR: "You felt led to-?" JD: "Yeah. Moved. It was almost beyond my control. That's why I thought, 'Okay, my purpose is.to raise issues and to raise this campaign to another level.' But when I won it, I knew there was a greater purpose for me. And then when I won the election, all along there have been signs that things that have happened that have been unexplainable, which leads me to believe that this is meant to happen, and it was the time and the place and the person." 133 AR: "What types of signs? Things that happened that really struck you?" JD: "Partly, for instance, the support I received from people I would never have dreamed would have supported me. I'm going to have to go back and look at specifics. There were specific things that happened even in the campaign, for instance. We would run out
4 offunds-in fact, the primary we ran that on $300, the campaign. And we got a lot of donations of food and stuff. And I really believe strongly that we didn't need a lot of money, and the only money we needed were for the ads for the newspaper, actually; those were quite expensive. But we would be down in money and a check would come in. It would just show up. There were people that came out and worked. We had, we sold taco dinners. We did not get money from large personal interests or private interests. I wouldn't have accepted it if I had, because I felt strongly that it could be ran a different way. It was almost like and when we had a need that there would always be an answer to it. And I would have my committee would come in, and they would be out in the community, of course. And they would hear negative stuff from people, or information that was coming from other groups, and we would re-group, and they would be all upset, 'How are we going to combat this? You know, we got to fight this.' And I would always say, 'Don't worry about it. It'll be all right.' And I believed it strongly. I never worried. Because I thought, 'This decision's been out of my hand from day one. Why do I think it needs to change now.' So they'd say, 'Well, okay. You got us settled down, so we'll go back out.' Anyway, everything was taken care of. All along the way our needs were met with no effort. 162 "So I did win the election and came into office in October. I inherited a system that had been in place for fifty years, basically. I mean, we were operating a 1990s program, a government system, with a 1950s model or a '30s model." When she came in there was a secretary to the Chief only; they had 25 programs all reporting directly to the Chief. Many of the concerns that she ran on included accountability; previous audits had indicated recommendations that had never been followed up. Problems with misuse and mismanagement of money. She also campaigned on the issue of a constitution. A federally-recognized tribe is considered a sovereign nation. As a sovereign nation they should have a constitution that gives people the rights as a tribal member under the Constitution of the U.S. Most tribes throughout U.S. have them. A tribe as progressive as the Cherokees should have had one. She thinks the reason why they didn't previously was because it was a way to maintain control. People didn't have something to fall back on. There have been efforts in recent years to get a constitution. They do have one that's been in controversy for a while, the Lloyd Welch Constitution of 1889. There are various disagreements about it, it was never ratified. Question they have with constitution, do they come up with a new one or weave and incorporate the Lloyd Welch into it? She thinks it was wonderful that they draft it but it does include only males voting; that would have to be changed. There were some other clauses that would need to be changed, though the basic principles are wonderful. They'll need to decide whether to amend or to start anew. Those were some of the issues relative to the constitution. But she did run on the fact that they would get a constitution adopted or die trying. 206 In the past, certain issues would be thrown in there to keep it from being passed, for instance, the blood degree quantum to be an enrolled member. That would create two factions, so then no one would vote for it. They'll need to approach it differently and vote for it by sections. 217 She ran on the constitution. They had recently drawn up a list of what they had promised, as an evaluation, to see how they were doing. "But the one issue that
5 I ran strong on and I believe in it strongly and that is the cultural preservation and cultural integrity. Because I had witnessed a deterioration in pride in our children and a lack of knowledge in our children about what it truly meant to be Cherokee. And I had witnessed this, as I mentioned earlier to you before the interview, in the textbooks. Our textbooks that our children use do not address their history. Neither were as a tribe, neither were we addressing those issues. Over the years, I think economic issues and self-preservation just simply making a living took precedence over those cultural issues. And I think possibly that's what happened. But in recent years, we saw a need or more emphasis being placed on it by community people. And I think that happened partly because we began to have people travelling to powwows all around the country, and they saw what many tribes were able to retain. And they would come back and say, 'What happened here. Something's wrong because we've lost it. We also are at risk of losing our spoken language, and that's been a tremendous concern of mine, as well as many other people. So I think there were many factors that contributed to that and that's beside the point, because the point is we must do something now and quit talking about it. "I had concerns when I was in the school system that the school was having to lead that initiative for the language preservation and the cultural preservation. And I felt strongly then and I still feel that that should be a tribal initiative, and the tribe should be the main-at the tribal level, it should be the Chief, Vice-Chief, and the Council members that are saying, 'We will preserve it, and we will promote it, and we will protect it. And it will flow down to those other groups and other agencies and programs. "So I ran strongly on that, and I also ran strongly on a personnel policy for the Tribal employees, who work for the government. We had a personnel policy that had not been revised in 25 years. There again had been attempts but there'd never been follow through to get one in place that assured protection of employees. We are in the process right now, it's out for review, and hopefully within the next two months we will have one in place. "So those, along with some other issues, were the major ones that I campaigned on." 258 How did those differ from the other platforms of the other candidates in the primary?: Not much different. All were pushing toward accountability, except for the former Chief. That's what the people wanted. "I also ran on giving the government back to the people, that people need to be more involved in decisions. Now I was somewhat naive in doing that. And I've been very disappointed; that's one area that I've been disappointed in as far as I'm concerned. In that no matter how badly I want to give it back to the people and bring their involvement in, it requires Council commitment to that as well. And I have felt that there has been somewhat of a reluctance to turn loose of that power that Tribal Council enjoys. But I still believe strongly that your best ideas come from the people who are out there, who are out there making a living, and who are out there doing things. And if we would stop and listen to them and bring them into the discussions and bring them into your committees and working committees, that they have a lot to offer. I've also been disappointed as far as the time I've been able to commit to that. I keep thinking, 'Next months it's going to let up. Next month it's going to let up.' There's been criticism, you know, that people can't get in to see the Chief. And I was hoping three months that that would be let up so that they could. And I've tried to-i've had to State of the Tribe addresses where I tried to address that, but there was so much
6 that needed to be done. I told someone it was like peeling an onion. You peel off a layer and you think, 'Okay, that's taken care of And there's that many more laying there. And it's more of-it has more to do with management expertise, I think. Had I not had management experience in the school system, I think I would have been totally lost." 293 One of the first things she did was to receive approval from the Tribal Council to reorganize. She established divisions directors, assigned every tribal program under a division, so that there is a division director overseeing those programs. Only those directors come to her. "By having these directors working closely together-they worked on the policy manual together, they're working on a lot of issues together. Through that ongoing communication, something that a little tiny program over here is doing we may think is not important, but if another program over here is doing the same thing, we're wasting our efforts and wasting our energies. So I was hoping through that process that we could bring all the programs together and be more of a sharing and more of give-and-take atmosphere in the tribe and less of a turfdom than I was seeing with programs." 328 "I did get the divisions established and again I was very pleased to get the cultural division. Because I felt strongly about that one, that without that cultural division we were no different from any city government or county government that has their public works, their finance division, and their health and human services. But, you know, if you don't have that cultural division, what makes you unique? So if I haven't done anything I have created more of an awareness to the cultural side of the government." This took some time to hire; they were able to hire enrolled members for each director position, who had the educational credentials. It's not been an easy task; she's had to do some things that were not popular. They had to trim some people. As much as she disliked doing that she needed to have people who believed in the goals and objectives. That was minimal. They also reorganized in the main offices, established executive assistant; she's an attorney and an enrolled member. Also an executive administrator who has also completed law school, hasn't yet passed the bar. She also has a secretary who has a degree. 343 She has also pushed for education. She had heard for many years in the school system that people thought it wasn't what you know but who you know; why do we need to get an education. It was true; young people were being overlooked no matter what kind of education. So that's another positive message. Also they will not tolerate poor work performance. That's not been very popular because they've had to let people go because of that. 356 That's where they stand right now. One of the daunting task is to get the tribe in a planning. They are close to having the casino operations bringing in a lot of money, and she is very concerned that if we do not have accountability established and don't get busy with planning for the next seven generations, the money will be squandered. They have so many needs and there are so many urgent needs but if they keep responding that way, they'll just be throwing up buildings or programs to meet an urgent need without planning. (AR: "More reactive than proactive?") JD: "Yes. And that takes a lot of time and a lot of commitment of time. And it seems that there's so much to do. And Council feels that they have only two years to do it. So there's always
7 something urgent that we need to do now. 'Forget the future, let's get this taken care of now.' So that's going to be one of the biggest tasks that I have and that is to get us to really start doing a short-range and long-range plan. And mainly because not only do we need it, but because of the money. I don't want to see it squandered by anyone. Whether I'm here or whoever's here. If a plan is adopted, then the next person that comes into this office will have something good to inherit and will be able to step right in and say, 'Okay, here we are in this plan.' " 389 [We discuss how much time she has and agree to the end of this side. Chief Dugan's brother was in the hospital in Asheville and she was going to have to leave before too long.] 391 AR: "How do you think what you've done so far in office has differed from what say one of the male candidates had been voted in? Is there a difference, do you think, between some of what you've instituted?" JD: "I think it's all different. As far as in the campaign-i'm talking about the particular candidates. You're talking about particular candidates or in general? Would it be different from what a male would do?" (AR: "I guess in general. But I think the specific might also be useful to talk about.") JD: "I think I was the only one to propose re-organization because I saw it as a way to streamline operations so that they would be more efficient. I'm not sure how efficient we are now. It's not going to be an overnight success because we're still having to see who does what in this whole scheme of things. But I think I'm not sure if others would have reorganized to the extent that I did. I'm not sure if now I don't know I have really worked hard to try to stay neutral in the issue of male versus female. I have some opinions about it, but I don't mean them to be negative against males and positive for females. But I think women view things in a different way by virtue of our traditional roles. Now granted our roles have changed over the last few years, and more women are out in the work force, fewer women are staying at home with their children and there are a lot of things that are different than they were when I was growing up, for instance. "I had an Indian man from Oklahoma tell me this. I had thought of it, but I would never have voiced it. And it was good to hear a man who could voice it and feel confident to be able to say it. And he said, 'I think men sometimes are tunnel-visioned. And women, because of having to stay home and take care of the house while they didn't go out to work, look at everything they had to take care of. They had to take care of the gardens, the laundry, the house cleaning, the cooking, as well as make sure the children got fed. They had to go to the school, they had to pay the bills, they had to go get the groceries, they had to make the money stretch. So a man, while he goes out to make the living, his sole aim is to get that paycheck and bring it home to take care of the family. And it's the wife's responsibility to make that paycheck spread. So she has to look out at the big picture and look to the future as well. And I got to thinking about that, and I think, you know, he's probably right in the sense that possibly as a woman politician I might be more inclined to look out over the big picture. I would not just focus on economic development, I would not just focus on cultural issues or internal organization. I think I would be more inclined to try to look at the whole big picture. As overwhelming as it is, I would still worry about that. "I also think that women, by virtue of our roles again, are more inclined to be concerned about social and emotional issues, particularly social issues related to children and families. Worrying that our children are getting a good education and worrying that
8 our children's needs are being met and worrying about abuse, alcohol, all those other social ills and issues. It's not to say that men do not either. But I think it touches as at our emotional core more than it would a man. [Pause.] So I don't know if that answers our question." 464 AR: "Yeah, no. It does. In fact, one of the things that Betty [DuPree] and I talked about was how we're close to the end of this tape here is how the history of Cherokee women was very much of taking care. (JD: "Yes.) AR: "We were talking about it terms of basketry and sort of providing, and the importance of providing for the family in that sense, and I wonder what your feeling is. Do you see a connection between what Cherokee women historically have done and what women do today, and what in some way you're trying to do now as Chief?" JD: "I'm sure there's an influence there. I've never really thought of it. I know that women in our history have taken care of everything. The men earlier in history went to war, but the women raised the gardens and did everything. But often women went to war, too. And the Cherokees were known for their acceptance of women as more of a peer or an equal than other tribes. In fact, women got to dance in the dances. Other tribes would not allow that, some tribes. And even have been called a 'petticoat tribe' because other tribes said the Cherokees let the women tell them what to do. [Pause.]" AR: "And also the matrilineal descent." JD: "Right. And I think we've had women who have been important in our recent history. And it's women who are the drivers and the do-ers, often times. Not only at the political level but at the social level too. So I guess I'm sure that that helped me to run, because I never grew up feeling inferior. I never grew up thinking, 'I can't do that because I'm a woman.' I just was not I never felt that or witnessed that in this area. If there has been ever a concern from the community of hiring, for instance, I have never in my life heard anyone say, 'I know he got that job because he's a man.' In fact, many of our programs are headed by women, many of our tribal programs, for instance. There has never been a real distinction of men versus women. I mean, I know there are men out there who feel that, and I'm sure there are feelings of women who have felt discrimination, but more than that there's been more discrimination because of who you are. [A loud knocking on the door, and Chief Dugan calls out 'Just a minute.' We stopped the interview at that juncture because Chief Dugan needed to leave for Asheville. We agreed to continue the interview at another point.] 520 [End of Interview/Closing Announcement. End of Side A, Tape No. 5.29.96-JD.l. Side B is blank.]
Z-%2.1- THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT CHAPEL HILL Southern Oral History Program The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Department of History CB#3195, 406 Hamilton Hall College of Arts and Sciences Chapel Hill, N.C. 27599-3195 May 16, 1996 Joyce Dugan P.O. Box 455 Cherokee, NC 28719 Dear Joyce Dugan: I was recently in Cherokee conducting an interview with Betty Dupree as part of the Women's Leadership and Grassroots Activism project currently underway at the Southern Oral History Program (SOHP). Betty-whom I know through my work with the North Carolina Arts Council Folklife Sectionsuggested that I contact you regarding our project. Our project aims to document women's contributions to public life and also to explore women's unique forms and styles of leadership. Undergraduate and graduate students, in collaboration with myself and other SOHP staff members, are conducting interviews with women leaders and activists throughout North Carolina. The tapes will be deposited in the Southern Historical Collection at UNC-CH and made available to researchers and the general public; but excerpts of the interviews will also serve as the basis for a series of oral history performances highlighting women activists and leaders across the state. We are focusing on four areas of activism-social, political, cultural, and environmental. I am hoping to undertake a small series of interviews with Cherokee women as part of our Women's Leadership Project, and I would very much like to conduct an interview with you. As the first woman tribal chief of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians, your role as a leader would be of critical importance to document not only for our project but for your community/family members as well. (I plan to deposit copies of any interviews I conduct with Cherokee women at the Museum of the Cherokee Indian or some other local repository.) Would you be interested in participating? I hope to come to Cherokee during the last week of May. Might you be available for two hours total sometime during that week, or is there another time which might better suit your needs? I can be reached at (919) 544-8528 (mornings) or (919) 966-5787 (afternoons). I'll try to give you a call early next week to talk with your assistant. Enclosed is a description of our project and also a flyer on the Southern Oral History Program. I hope we have the opportunity to meet. Best of luck to you in your work. Sincerely, Alicia J. Rouverol, Projects Director Southern Oral History Program