Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 1 of 129 Page 1 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 2 - - - 3 COUNCIL ON AMERICAN-ISLAMIC: 4 RELATIONS, : : 5 Plaintiff, : : Civil Action No. 6 vs. : 09-2030 (CKK) : Judge Colleen 7 PAUL DAVID GAUBATZ; CHRIS : Kollar-Kotelly GAUBATZ, a.k.a. "David : 8 Marshall"; and JOHN AND : JANE DOE NOS. 1-10, : 9 : Defendants. : 10 : 11 - - - 12 Monday, July 12, 2010 - - - 13 14 Videotaped Deposition of CHRISTINE 15 BRIM, held at the Offices of LUQUE MARINO, 16 910 17th Street, N.W., Suite 800, Washington, 17 D.C., 20006, commencing at 10:26 a.m., before 18 Kathy Savich, Registered Professional 19 Reporter, Certified LiveNote Reporter, and 20 Notary Public. 21 * * * 22 23 24 MID-ATLANTIC REGION 1801 Market Street - Suite 1800 25 Philadelphia, PA 19103
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 2 of 129 1 APPEARANCES: 2 LUGUE MARINO BY: DAN MARINO, ESQUIRE 3 910 17th Street, N.W. Suite 800 4 Washington, D.C. 20006 202-223-8888 5 dmarino@luquemarino.com Counsel for the Plaintff 6 7 THE SMITH APPELLATE LAW FIRM BY: MICHAEL F. SMITH, ESQUIRE 8 1747 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. Suite 300 9 Washington, D.C. 20006 202-454-2860 10 smith@smithpllc.com Counsel for the Witness and 11 Center for Security Policy 12 LAW OFFICES OF DAVID YERUSHALMI 13 BY: DAVID YERUSHALMI, ESQUIRE (No Physical Address) 14 646-262-0500 david.yerushalmi@verizon.net 15 General Counsel for Center for Security Policy 16 CAIR 17 BY: NADHIRA AL-KHALILI, ESQUIRE 453 New Jersey Avenue, S.E. 18 Washington, D.C. 20003 202-646-6034 19 nalkhalili@cair.com Counsel for the Council on 20 American-Islamic Relations 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 3 of 129 Page 3 1 - - - 2 I N D E X 3 - - - 4 5 Testimony of: CHRISTINE BRIM 6 PAGE 7 BY MR. MARINO 07 8 9 10 - - - 11 E X H I B I T S 12 - - - 13 14 EXHIBIT NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE MARKED 15 16 CSP 1 Revised Notice of Deposition 06 17 CSP 2 Subpoena 14 18 CSP 3 May 11, 2010 Letter to Corbett 14 19 CSP 4 Photo of CDs which can be Zoomed 20 (Electronically Submitted Only) 49 21 (Original DVDs are being maintained by 22 Mr. Martino.) 23 24 (Attached.) 25
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 4 of 129 Page 4 1 DEPOSITION SUPPORT INDEX 2 3 INSTRUCTION NOT TO ANSWER: 4 Page and Line 5 26-5; 29-18; 29-24; 31-8; 35-23; 36-14; 36-22; 6 38-3; 39-2; 40-7; 41-11; 42-15; 60-15; 63-7; 7 64-4; 68-24; 70-17; 71-4; 71-10; 71-22; 72-9; 8 79-4; 79-19; 80-5; 80-20; 81-12; 89-22; 9 90-14; 92-16; 95-14; 96-2; 97-5; 99-21; 10 100-4; 101-18; 102-19; and 109-2 11 12 REQUEST FOR PRODUCTION OF DOCUMENTS: 13 Page Line Description 14 88-3 Disk Compilation 15 16 STIPULATIONS: 17 Page Line 18 (None) 19 20 QUESTIONS MARKED: 21 Page Line 22 (None) 23 24 25
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 5 of 129 Page 5 2 P R O C E E D I N G S 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This begins 4 tape number 1 in the video deposition 5 of Christine Brim taken by the 6 plaintiff in the matter of counsel of 7 Americanist Islamic Relations versus 8 Paul David Gaubatz, Chris Gaubatz, 9 also known as David Marshall and John 10 and Jane Doe, Numbers 1 through 10, 11 filed in the United States District 12 Court for the District of Columbia, 13 Civil Action Number 09-2030. 14 Today's deposition is being held 15 at the law firm of Luque Marino, LLP, 16 located at 910 17th Street, Northwest, 17 Washington, D.C. 18 For identification purposes, I 19 am Nancy J. Hylton, the video 20 specialist. The stenographer is Kathy 21 Savich from Veritext National 22 Litigation Services located in 23 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. 24 Today's date is July 12th, 2010. 25 The time on the video is 10:29 a.m.
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 6 of 129 Page 6 2 We are now on the record. 3 Will all counsel present please 4 introduce themselves and to whom they 5 represent, starting with the 6 plaintiff's counsel, please. 7 MR. MARINO: Dan Marino here on 8 behalf of the plaintiff. 9 MR. SMITH: Michael F. Smith on 10 behalf of the witness and the Center 11 for Security Policy. 12 MR. YERUSHALMI: David 13 Yerushalmi, general counsel with 14 Center for Security Policy. 15 MS. AL-KHALILI: Nadhira 16 Al-Khalili, in-house counsel for the 17 Council on American-Islamic Relations. 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Can the court 19 reporter please swear in the witness. 20 (CSP Exhibit No. 1 was marked 21 for identification.) 22 CHRISTINE BRIM, after having 23 been first duly sworn, was examined 24 and testified as follows: 25
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 7 of 129 Page 7 2 - - - 3 EXAMINATION 4 - - - 5 BY MR. MARINO: 6 Q. All right. Ms. Brim, I have 7 introduced myself to you off the record. I'm 8 Dan Martino. I represent the plaintiff in 9 this case. I want to thank you for coming 10 today and also doing some things off the 11 record that we had asked you to do to help -- 12 help expedite matters a little bit. 13 I want to show you what has 14 been marked as CSP 1 -- CSP is for Central 15 for Security Policy 1 -- which purports to be 16 a revised notice of deposition for the Center 17 for Security Policy. It's what we commonly 18 call a 30(b)(6) deposition notice. 19 Have you seen this document 20 before? I should note this one is dated 21 July 12th of this year. 22 A. Is this the document that was 23 sent last week? 24 Q. Yes. 25 A. Then, yes, I have seen this
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 8 of 129 Page 8 2 before. 3 Q. And I take it you're here in 4 response to at least portions of this 5 deposition notice, correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And I should note that we have 8 had numerous discussions off the record about 9 this and a previous notice and -- with -- 10 actually, previously with Keith Corbett who 11 represented the center. 12 And I think counsel had reached 13 an agreement, and I want to confirm, to limit 14 the scope of this initial session of the 15 deposition. And we have had -- we had a more 16 recent discussion this morning with Mr. Smith 17 who is here. And I think that what we agreed 18 is that we would limit the scope of it at 19 this time to topic 3 on Exhibit A. 20 MR. MARINO: Is that -- have I 21 got that right? 22 MR. SMITH: It's primarily 23 right, except even within 3, it's our 24 position that part of that is beyond 25 the scope of what the judge has -- has
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 9 of 129 Page 9 2 allowed, and that would be really the 3 language referring to "DG 4 Counter-terrorism Publishing USA, 5 Anti-CAIR, and the Society of 6 Americans for National Existence," and 7 including how and when the documents 8 recorded were received. 9 So subject to the limitation, 10 that you're allowed to question about 11 recorded material allegedly obtained 12 from plaintiff's offices by defendants 13 and given to the center, then 14 that's -- that's our limitation on the 15 scope of the deposition. 16 MR. MARINO: Okay. And I think 17 that, as I said to you this morning on 18 the phone, you know, I think we are 19 willing to agree that it will be 20 limited to topic 3. And when we spoke 21 about that this morning, I don't think 22 you -- you gave me that caveat that 23 you just gave. 24 MR. SMITH: Yeah. In fact, I 25 was in my car and I didn't have the
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 10 of 129 Page 10 2 document in front of me, but with 3 that -- and I think, clearly, if you 4 segregate out those entities, inquiry 5 3 then becomes consistent with what 6 the judge has allowed, but I think 7 having those, those are beyond the 8 scope. 9 MR. MARINO: Yeah. I'm not 10 familiar with any limitation that the 11 judge has placed on -- on the 12 deposition. 13 I know that the reason the judge 14 permitted the deposition, my 15 understanding of the reason she 16 permitted it to go forward as opposed 17 to any other discovery, was for the 18 purpose of discussing the documents, 19 the audio files, video files, which we 20 understood have been provided to CSP. 21 She certainly never said, "Well, 22 that's going to be a limited 23 deposition" or "You're going to have 24 multiple depositions of CSP." I mean, 25 that's something that we have agreed
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 11 of 129 Page 11 2 to, you know, at Mr. Corbett's 3 request. 4 But why don't we do this. We 5 will see how far we can get and -- 6 and as we actually ask the questions 7 in practice, we'll see where -- you 8 know, where we're going to have 9 issues. 10 MR. YERUSHALMI: Let me just -- 11 MR. MARINO: Sure. 12 MR. YERUSHALMI: -- for the 13 record -- 14 MR. MARINO: Yeah. 15 MR. YERUSHALMI: -- Mike and I 16 had a conversation with Keith last 17 week. So we thought we understood 18 what he had understood the 19 relationship to be and read the -- the 20 letters back and forth. 21 But, to be clear, to kind of 22 respond to that last comment, it is 23 our position that the Court's 24 rationale for lifting the stay in 25 place as to all discovery was relative
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 12 of 129 Page 12 2 expressly to the audio or the 3 videotapes. 4 And so information regarding 5 how, what, and when, and who they gave 6 them to, and so forth, that's all fair 7 game for purposes of this deposition. 8 But any documents beyond the records 9 that we provided would be beyond the 10 scope. 11 MR. MARINO: Okay. And I 12 understand your -- I understand your 13 position. But, I mean, I will point 14 out, there is no discovery stay in 15 place. And, in fact, I addressed that 16 with the Court. And there are 17 dispositive motions pending. That 18 does not mean there is an automatic 19 stay. 20 In fact, I specifically asked 21 the Court whether she was imposing a 22 stay; she said no. What she said 23 simply was there's a de facto, if -- 24 if -- if you try to take discovery 25 other than this deposition and you
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 13 of 129 Page 13 2 have to move to compel it. 3 I'm probably not going to compel 4 it. So it's what I call District of 5 Columbia kind of quasi -- quasi stay, 6 which we've had to address in a lot of 7 cases as well. 8 But -- but there is no -- 9 certainly the Court has not imposed 10 any discovery stay. 11 But, anyway, we don't need to 12 debate it -- 13 MR. SMITH: Yeah. 14 MR. MARINO: -- on the record. 15 MR. SMITH: And just to be 16 clear -- 17 MR. MARINO: Yeah. 18 MR. SMITH: -- we're basing our 19 position on the December 10th order. 20 MR. MARINO: All right. 21 MR. SMITH: And I tend to think 22 that speaks for itself. 23 MR. MARINO: Yeah. All right. 24 Well, let's -- let's just try to 25 proceed.
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 14 of 129 Page 14 2 (CSP Exhibit No. 2 was marked 3 for identification.) 4 BY MR. MARINO: 5 Q. Let me show you what we have 6 marked previously as CSP 2. I think I 7 provided a copy of that to counsel. That 8 purports to be a subpoena directed to the 9 Center for Security Policy, with some 10 attachments. It's -- this subpoena is dated 11 March 19, 2010, and it's a subpoena for 12 documents and testimony and has attached to 13 it a request for specific documents, which, 14 after the definition section, starts on page 15 4. And then attached to that is an earlier 16 notice of deposition as well. 17 What I -- you can read as much 18 of this as you'd like, Ms. Brim. I want to 19 direct your attention to the subpoena for 20 documents, and the specific requests which 21 start on page 4, and the requests 1 through 22 8. 23 (CSP Exhibit No. 3 was marked 24 for identification.) 25 BY MR. MARINO:
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 15 of 129 Page 15 2 Q. And I'm also going to show you 3 what's been marked as CSP 3, which is a -- 4 purports to be a May 11, 2010 letter, a 5 version of which you marked up during the 6 break, and that purports to be a transmittal 7 letter sending us 51 -- which, it indicates 8 51 CDs. 9 And the question really is 10 going to be whether there are any documents 11 which are responsive to CSP 2, the subpoena, 12 other than the documents that are now listed 13 on CSP 3? 14 MR. SMITH: Counsel, I -- I just 15 want to make clear that we have 16 responded to the subpoena in a way 17 that we feel is consistent with what 18 the judge has permitted at this point. 19 So to the extent that there 20 is -- 21 MR. MARINO: Yeah. 22 MR. SMITH: -- recordings, those 23 are -- those were produced, and the 24 witness has been through them and 25 checked them off a list.
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 16 of 129 Page 16 2 I think -- 3 MR. MARINO: Okay. 4 MR. SMITH: -- going beyond that 5 is, really, beyond the scope of 6 today's deposition. 7 MR. MARINO: Well, okay. I'm 8 not sure I totally follow you, but if 9 I understand it correctly, are you 10 telling me that there are documents 11 that are responsive to request 1 12 through 8 from the -- the March 13 subpoena that have not been produced? 14 MR. SMITH: No. I am telling 15 you that the area of inquiry is beyond 16 the scope of what we are here to -- 17 the witness is here to testify about 18 today. 19 MR. MARINO: So you won't tell 20 me whether there are documents 21 responsive other than those that have 22 been produced? 23 MR. SMITH: We have -- we have 24 complied with the subpoena. The 25 center has complied with the subpoena.
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 17 of 129 Page 17 2 MR. MARINO: All right. Well, 3 that's all I'm getting -- that's all 4 I'm asking about at this point, so... 5 I assume this is the witness on 6 this issue. 7 BY MR. MARINO: 8 Q. And my question is simply this: 9 Are there any documents responsive to the 10 document request in Exhibit 2 which have not 11 been produced to us at this point? 12 A. This is the record of the 13 videotapes. These are all the videotapes. 14 MR. YERUSHALMI: "These" 15 being -- let's note that the -- 16 MR. MARINO: All right. 17 Let's -- let's just -- 18 MR. YERUSHALMI -- witness is 19 pointing to Exhibit 3. 20 MR. MARINO: No. I understand. 21 I'll take care of that. 22 THE WITNESS: Yeah. CSP 3. 23 BY MR. MARINO: 24 Q. Please. 25 A. Yeah, I'm pointing to -- this
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 18 of 129 Page 18 2 is the -- this is the only record that we 3 have. 4 Q. Okay. And by "this", you're 5 referring to Exhibit 3? 6 A. I'm referring to Exhibit 3 7 which is a list of all the videotapes. 8 Q. Right. 9 A. And these are the videotapes 10 that we have in entirety. 11 Q. Okay. Now you're -- you're -- 12 A. These are the recordings. I'm 13 touching the container of the DVDs. 14 Q. Okay. We'll talk about 15 those -- those in a moment. 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. All right. Let me -- 18 A. So these -- by -- and the 19 videos are the only recordings that we have. 20 So this is a complete set of recordings. 21 This is a complete record, and 22 it is the record that we have of those 23 recordings. 24 Q. Let me ask you to look at 25 Exhibit 2, please. And, specifically, if you
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 19 of 129 Page 19 2 look at page 4, specific request for 3 documents number 1. 4 Do you have that? 5 A. I do, in front of me. 6 Q. Okay. It says "Produce any and 7 all documents in your possession, custody, or 8 control relating to any communications 9 between you and Paul David Gaubatz or any 10 group or entity with which he is or has been 11 associated or affiliated since January 1, 12 2005, including, but not limited to, DG 13 Counter-terrorism Publishing USA, Anti-CAIR, 14 and the Society of Americans for National 15 Existence, or SANE. 16 Do you see that request? 17 A. I do see that request. 18 Q. Does CSP have any documents 19 that are responsive to that request? 20 MR. SMITH: Dan, I just want to 21 step in. I don't mean to be 22 difficult, but we had previously 23 lodged objections to -- to the scope 24 of these requests. 25 MR. MARINO: Got it.
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 20 of 129 Page 20 2 MR. SMITH: And those objections 3 haven't been -- the issue hasn't been 4 addressed by the Court and hasn't been 5 resolved as to whether the objections 6 are well-founded or whether they're 7 not, and whether those -- you know, 8 whether that request is -- is properly 9 on the table. And I don't think it's 10 a proper ground for inquiry of this 11 witness. 12 MR. MARINO: Well, again, all 13 you have to do is tell me, "Hey, we've 14 -- we've given you written objections 15 and we're not producing documents in 16 response to Number 1." Boom. That's 17 all you need to say, I mean, if that's 18 the case, but I need to know what it 19 is so I can go to the Court and 20 challenge your objection. Right? 21 MR. SMITH: Well, we have 22 previously provided the objection that 23 it's beyond the scope of the 24 December 10th order. 25 The December 10th order is very
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 21 of 129 Page 21 2 specific in what the judge is allowing 3 in terms of discovery. 4 MR. MARINO: Well, why can't you 5 or your client answer a simple 6 question, which is, are you producing 7 documents in response to Number 1 or 8 not? It's very simple. 9 All you have -- and if you want 10 to say "Yes, we are" or "No, we are 11 not because...", that's fine. I just 12 need a yes or no, you know, so I 13 can -- so I have something to go to 14 the Court with, that's all. 15 MR. SMITH: Well, our position 16 has been, as previously stated, we 17 have objected to the scope of the 18 discovery request, and that we have 19 complied with the discovery request to 20 the extent that the Court has put us 21 under a duty to. 22 MR. MARINO: Okay. I'm going to 23 keep asking the question until I get 24 an answer, okay? So, I mean, you can 25 waste time if you want, but, you know,
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 22 of 129 Page 22 2 I mean, I think I'm entitled to a very 3 clear answer. You're either producing 4 documents in response to request 5 Number 1 or you're not; you're 6 standing on some objection or you're 7 not, okay? 8 And I don't care if the witness 9 can answer it, you can answer it on 10 behalf of CSP, that's fine, but I 11 don't understand why we're -- this is 12 usually pretty routine, these kind of 13 questions, but what's -- what's the 14 issue here? I mean, why can't we just 15 answer it? 16 MR. SMITH: The issue is that 17 the objection has been made to the 18 scope of the document request. 19 MR. MARINO: All right. 20 MR. SMITH: And I think you're 21 now probing the witness to go beyond 22 that objection, and it's not proper 23 until the Court has resolved the 24 objection. 25 MR. MARINO: All right. Are you
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 23 of 129 Page 23 2 standing on the objection, then, that 3 you're not producing document -- if 4 you don't have any documents that are 5 responsive to request number 1, there 6 is nothing to take to the Court, 7 right? 8 MR. SMITH: Those have been 9 produced. 10 MR. MARINO: What -- what is 11 "those"? 12 MR. SMITH: The recordings that 13 you have marked with -- 14 MR. MARINO: Okay. You were 15 pointing at the recordings when you 16 said "those"? 17 MR. SMITH: Yes, I was pointing 18 at the recordings. 19 MR. MARINO: Okay. 20 All right. Let me just ask the 21 witness. 22 BY MR. MARINO: 23 Q. Do you know whether you have 24 documents that are responsive to request 25 number 1 that are not being produced?
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 24 of 129 Page 24 2 A. The recordings -- the record of 3 the recordings, the video recordings, is 4 Exhibit 3. And all of the recordings that we 5 have, the video recordings, are in this 6 container right here. 7 Q. You understand that my question 8 isn't about the recordings right now, right? 9 Is there some lack of clarity about that? 10 A. Then I don't know what your 11 question is about. 12 Q. Look at request number 1, 13 please. 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. Please read it. Read it out 16 loud into the record. 17 A. "Produce any and all documents 18 in your possession, custody, or control 19 relating to any communications between you 20 and Paul David Gaubatz or any group or entity 21 with which he is or has been associated or 22 affiliated since January 1st, 2005, 23 including, but not limited to, DG 24 Counter-Terrorism Publishing USA, anti-cair, 25 and the Society of Americans for National
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 25 of 129 Page 25 2 Existence (or "SANE")." 3 Q. Okay. Do you believe you have 4 an understanding of what that request is 5 seeking? 6 MR. SMITH: Dan, so I want to be 7 clear. The December 10th order says, 8 "The Court ordered the plaintiff could 9 engage in discovery at the present 10 time only to the extent it seeks to 11 depose the Center for Security Policy, 12 referred to at the status hearing as 13 CSP, based on representations that the 14 organization may have possession of, 15 or access to, recorded material 16 allegedly obtained from plaintiff's 17 offices by defendant." 18 That's what the judge has 19 allowed discovery over. And our 20 objection is that the request you have 21 had the witness read and are trying to 22 ask her about is beyond the scope of 23 what the judge is allowing in 24 discovery at this time. That's the 25 objection.
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 26 of 129 Page 26 2 MR. MARINO: Okay. I understand 3 your objection. She can answer the 4 question. 5 MR. SMITH: And I am instructing 6 the witness not to answer based on the 7 objection. 8 BY MR. MARINO: 9 Q. All right. Look at request 10 number 2, please. 11 And I take it you're going to 12 follow that instruction, you're not going to 13 answer the question with respect to number 1, 14 correct? 15 A. Oh, yes, I will follow his 16 instruction regarding number 1. 17 Q. Request number 2, please, 18 please read that into the record. 19 A. Number 2 states, "Produce any 20 and all documents in your possession, 21 custody, or control, relating to any 22 communications between you and Christopher 23 Gaubatz or any group or entity with which he 24 is or has been associated or affiliated since 25 January 1st, 2005."
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 27 of 129 Page 27 2 Q. And do you believe you 3 understand that request? 4 A. I do understand that request. 5 Q. And does the Center for 6 Security Policy have any documents which are 7 responsive to that request? 8 MR. SMITH: It's the same 9 objection, Dan. It's -- and I think, 10 it looks like, we can go down the line 11 with these and it's going to be the 12 same objection, so... 13 MR. MARINO: We have to go 14 through the ritual, I am afraid. 15 THE WITNESS: That's fine. 16 MR. MARINO: So we can go to the 17 Court and seek sanctions, so... 18 MR. SMITH: Well, and based on 19 our discussion of this morning -- and 20 I'll leave this as a maybe -- 21 MR. MARINO: Yeah. 22 MR. SMITH: -- you mentioned, 23 and since we are trying to cooperate 24 in this, that there wouldn't be 25 sanctions sought --
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 28 of 129 Page 28 2 MR. MARINO: Well -- 3 MR. SMITH: -- so that catches 4 me a little off guard. 5 MR. MARINO: Well, let me -- 6 MR. SMITH: But -- 7 MR. MARINO: You're catching me 8 a little off guard by instructing the 9 witness not to answer simple questions 10 about the document request. 11 In fact, I think either you or 12 your colleague told Mr. Finley that 13 you understood this was going to be a 14 custodial type of deposition, which is 15 exactly the type of questions that I'm 16 asking. 17 MR. SMITH: As I mentioned -- 18 MR. MARINO: So -- 19 MR. SMITH: As I mentioned in my 20 letter of Friday afternoon, the 21 deposition is to be about the narrowly 22 carved out scope from the judge's 23 order. 24 MR. MARINO: And we believe you 25 are misreading the judge's order
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 29 of 129 Page 29 2 completely. 3 But, nevertheless, let's -- 4 let's not waste time. I mean, I just 5 want to -- we're going to go through 6 this. We're going to get the answers. 7 We'll get the instructions. We'll 8 establish the foundation so we can go 9 to the Court and -- and seek 10 appropriate relief. 11 That's all we're trying to do, 12 so -- 13 MR. SMITH: Very well. 14 MR. MARINO: -- if you are not 15 certain you want to go this way, don't 16 do it. 17 If you're certain you want to go 18 this way, then instruct the witness 19 not to answer, and we'll move on. 20 MR. SMITH: You ask your 21 question, Dan, and I'll -- 22 MR. MARINO: I just did. I just 23 did. 24 MR. SMITH: I'm instructing the 25 witness not to answer based on our
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 30 of 129 Page 30 2 objection that it's beyond the scope 3 of the discovery the judge has 4 allowed. 5 MR. MARINO: I understand. 6 THE WITNESS: And based on that 7 recommendation, I am not answering. 8 BY MR. MARINO: 9 Q. You're not answering the 10 question. 11 Look at request number 3, 12 please. 13 A. I see it. 14 Q. "Produce any and all 15 documents...", can you read that into the 16 record. 17 A. I can. Should I -- you want me 18 to do that? 19 Q. Go ahead and do it, yeah. 20 A. Okay. Number 3, "Produce any 21 and all documents in your possession, 22 custody, or control that you have received 23 from Paul David Gaubatz, Christopher Gaubatz, 24 or any group or entity with which they are, 25 or have been, associated or affiliated since
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 31 of 129 Page 31 2 January 1st, 2005, including, but not limited 3 to, DG Counter-terrorism Publishing USA, 4 Anti-CAIR, and the Society of Americans for 5 National Existence (or "SANE")". 6 Q. And do you believe you have an 7 understanding of what that request is? 8 MR. SMITH: The same objection, 9 Dan, and the same instruction to the 10 witness. We feel it's beyond the 11 scope of the Court's order. 12 BY MR. MARINO: 13 Q. Well, weren't the videos 14 produced in response to that request? 15 A. The videos and recordings? 16 MR. SMITH: Well, the request is 17 phrased "documents." 18 MR. MARINO: And "documents" is 19 defined as recordings. 20 MR. SMITH: Documents -- are you 21 saying that documents encompasses the 22 DVDs? 23 MR. MARINO: Well -- well, 24 maybe -- maybe you can help me there. 25 Are you -- why did you produce the
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 32 of 129 Page 32 2 DVDs? 3 MR. SMITH: Well, there was an 4 agreement -- 5 MR. MARINO: There was -- 6 Which request are they in 7 response to? 8 MR. SMITH: There was an 9 agreement with counsel, and among 10 counsel, to provide the recordings in 11 response to the request. 12 MR. MARINO: If I understand 13 your partner's letter, Keith Corbett's 14 letter of February 23, is that -- I 15 mean, you indicate there were written 16 objections. I assume that's what 17 you're referring to. And he's 18 indicated that "CSP is prepared to 19 produce records relating to the 20 receipt of recordings made by 21 defendants during 2008. CSP is 22 prepared to provide records as to how 23 and when the recordings were..." 24 I'll wait till -- 25 MR. SMITH: Right.
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 33 of 129 Page 33 2 MR. MARINO: -- you finish 3 talking. 4 MR. SMITH: No. Keep going. 5 MR. MARINO: Okay. 6 I mean, if you're not going to 7 listen to me, I am not going to -- 8 MR. SMITH: No. I can listen. 9 I am listening. 10 MR. MARINO: -- talk. 11 Okay. You were listening to 12 someone else, so -- 13 MR. YERUSHALMI: Just for the 14 record -- 15 MR. MARINO: -- until we 16 stopped. 17 MR. YERUSHALMI: -- you were 18 reading a letter that we know the 19 contents of. 20 MR. SMITH: Yeah. It's a letter 21 that we sent, so, but go ahead. 22 MR. MARINO: Well, actually, 23 Keith Corbett sent it -- 24 MR. SMITH: Right. 25 MR. MARINO: -- on
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 34 of 129 Page 34 2 February 23rd. 3 MR. SMITH: Go ahead. 4 MR. MARINO: And it indicates 5 that "CSP is prepared to produce 6 records relating to the receipt of 7 recordings made by the defendants 8 during 2008, a period of time that 9 Christopher Gaubatz was an intern for 10 CAIR-related entities. CSP prepared 11 -- is prepared to provide records as 12 to how and when the recordings were 13 received, and what, if anything, the 14 center has done with them or to them 15 and to whom, if anyone, CSP -- the CSP 16 has disclosed a transcript of." 17 So, I mean, are you now willing 18 to do that? 19 MR. SMITH: Well, that's not 20 what you're asking about, though. 21 MR. MARINO: No. I'm asking 22 whether you're confirming you're 23 willing to do what -- 24 MR. SMITH: Those are -- 25 MR. MARINO: -- Mr. Corbett
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 35 of 129 Page 35 2 said. 3 MR. SMITH: We stand by what we 4 said we would -- 5 MR. MARTINO: Okay. 6 THE WITNESS: For the 7 recordings. 8 MR. SMITH: Those were -- those 9 were provided. The recordings and 10 what you have marked as Exhibit 3 as 11 the list that accompanies them have 12 been provided in accordance with that 13 agreement. 14 MR. MARINO: Okay. So are they 15 being produced in response to request 16 3 or something else? 17 MR. SMITH: Well, they're being 18 produced in response to an agreement 19 between you and us. 20 MR. MARINO: Are you instructing 21 her not to answer my question with 22 respect to number 3 or -- 23 MR. SMITH: I am, I am, based on 24 the same objection. 25 BY MR. MARINO:
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 36 of 129 Page 36 2 Q. Let me just ask again. Does 3 the -- does the Center for Security Policy 4 have any documents which have not been 5 produced but which are responsive to request 6 number 3? 7 MR. SMITH: Dan, the same 8 objection. 9 THE WITNESS: And I will follow 10 his recommendation. 11 MR. MARINO: Well, you need to 12 instruct -- are you instructing her 13 not to answer? 14 MR. SMITH: Yes. I can -- we 15 can go through the -- 16 THE WITNESS: Yeah. The answer 17 is yes. 18 MR. SMITH: Do you want me to -- 19 MR. MARTINO: I mean, we need -- 20 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Yeah. 21 MR. MARTINO: I mean -- 22 MR. SMITH: I am instructing the 23 witness not answer based on 24 that objection. 25 THE WITNESS: And I'm going to
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 37 of 129 Page 37 2 follow those -- 3 BY MR. MARTINO: 4 Q. And you're following that 5 instruction? 6 A. -- instructions. 7 Q. Look at number 4, please, and 8 read that into the record. 9 A. Number 4, "Produce any and all 10 documents in your possession, custody, or 11 control, relating to any money, funds, or any 12 other thing of value that you have furnished, 13 provided, or delivered to, or caused to be 14 furnished, provided, or delivered to, Paul 15 David Gaubatz or any group or entity with 16 which he is or has been associated or 17 affiliated since January 1st, 2000, 18 including, but not limited to, DG 19 Counter-terrorism Publishing USA, anti-cair, 20 and the Society of -- SORRY -- the Society of 21 Americans for National Existence (or 22 "SANE")." 23 Q. Does the center have any 24 documents which are responsive to that 25 request?
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 38 of 129 Page 38 2 MR. SMITH: Dan, I'm going to 3 instruct the witness not to answer 4 based on our objection that it's 5 beyond the scope of the December 10th 6 order. 7 THE WITNESS: And I am going to 8 follow his instructions. 9 BY MR. MARINO: 10 Q. You're going to follow his 11 instruction. 12 Look at number 5 and read that 13 into the record, please. 14 A. Number 5, "Produce any and all 15 documents in your possession, custody, or 16 control, relating to any money or other thing 17 of value that you have furnished, provided, 18 or delivered or caused to be furnished, 19 provided, or delivered, to Christopher 20 Gaubatz or any group or entity with which he 21 is or has been associated or affiliated since 22 January 1st, 2000." 23 Q. Does the center have any 24 documents responsive to that request? 25 MR. SMITH: Dan, I am going to
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 39 of 129 Page 39 2 instruct the witness not to answer 3 based on our objection that your 4 question is beyond the scope of the 5 discovery within the Court's order it 6 permits. 7 THE WITNESS: And I am going to 8 follow his instructions. 9 BY MR. MARINO: 10 Q. Number 6, read that into the 11 record, please. 12 A. Number 6, "Produce any and all 13 documents in your possession, custody, or 14 control relating to any communications 15 between you and worldnetdaily.com, Inc., or 16 any of its subsidiaries, divisions, 17 departments, officers, directors, employees, 18 attorneys, agents, advisors, consultants, or 19 any other persons acting on behalf or under 20 its control or direction relating to the 21 book -- this is in ital -- Muslim Mafia: 22 Inside the Secret Underworld That's 23 Conspiring to Islamize America or the writing 24 or development thereof, Paul David Gaubatz, 25 Christopher Gaubatz, or plaintiffs since
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 40 of 129 Page 40 2 January 1st, 2005." 3 Q. Does the center have any 4 documents which are responsive to that 5 request? 6 MR. SMITH: I am going to 7 instruct the witness not to answer 8 based on our objection that it's 9 beyond the scope of the Court's 10 December 10th order. 11 THE WITNESS: And I will follow 12 those instructions. 13 BY MR. MARINO: 14 Q. Number 7, would you read that, 15 please. 16 A. Number 7, "Produce any or all 17 documents in your possession, custody, or 18 control relating to any communications 19 between you and WND Books, Incorporated, or 20 any of its subsidiaries, divisions, 21 departments, officers, directors, employees, 22 attorneys, agents, advisors, consultants, or 23 any other persons acting on behalf or under 24 its control or direction relating to the 25 book, ital's, "Muslim Mafia: Inside the
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 41 of 129 Page 41 2 Secret Underworld that's Conspiring to 3 Islamize America", end itals, or the writing 4 or development thereof, Paul David Gaubatz, 5 Christopher Gaubatz, or plaintiffs since 6 January 1st, 2005." 7 Q. Does the center have any 8 documents which are responsive to request 9 number 7? 10 MR. SMITH: I am, again, 11 instructing the witness not to answer 12 the question, since the question, once 13 again, exceeds the scope of discovery 14 the Court has allowed in its 15 December 10th order. 16 THE WITNESS: And I'm 17 following -- 18 BY MR. MARINO: 19 Q. Take a look at? 20 A. -- counsel's instructions. 21 Q. Take a look at number 8, 22 please. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Read that into the record. 25 A. Number 8, "Produce any and all
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 42 of 129 Page 42 2 documents in your possession, custody, or 3 control relating to any communications 4 between you and Joseph Farah -- that's 5 F-a-r-a-h -- relating to the book ital, 6 Muslim Mafia: Inside the Secret Underworld 7 That's Conspiring to Islamize America, end 8 ital, or the writing or development thereof, 9 Paul Gaubatz, Christopher Gaubatz, or 10 plaintiffs since January 1st, 2005." 11 Q. Does the center have any 12 documents which are responsive to request 13 number 8? 14 MR. SMITH: Dan, I'm going to 15 instruct the witness not to answer 16 this question as well. It also 17 exceeds the scope of discovery the 18 Court has permitted in its order. 19 THE WITNESS: And I'm going to 20 follow his instructions. 21 MR. MARINO: Why don't we go off 22 the record and we'll contact the 23 Court's chambers and see if we can get 24 them to do a phone call with us. 25 Okay.
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 43 of 129 Page 43 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going 3 off the record. The time on the video 4 is 10:56 a.m. 5 (Recess.) 6 (Tillman Finley present for 7 telephonic conference.) 8 (Off the video record.) 9 (Telephonic call to chambers.) 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back 11 on the record. The time on the video 12 is 11:34 a.m. 13 BY MR. MARINO: 14 Q. All right. Let me show you 15 what's been marked as CSP 3 for the purpose 16 of the deposition, and that purports to be a 17 May 11, 2010 letter from Keith Corbett to 18 Tillman Finley. 19 And you recognize this letter, 20 correct? 21 A. I do. 22 Q. Okay. And before we started 23 today, we had asked you to go through a stack 24 of disks, which -- which were provided to us, 25 and asked you to identify whether or not
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 44 of 129 Page 44 2 those disks were the ones that were listed on 3 Exhibit -- Exhibit 3 of the second page. 4 And you undertook to do that, 5 correct? 6 A. That is correct. 7 Q. And the notations on the second 8 page of Exhibit 3, as I understand it, are 9 little checkmarks that you've placed next to 10 the dates of each of these CDs, indicating 11 that at least it appears that those CDs are 12 CDs that were produced to us. 13 And then you added something, 14 it looks like, for June 12, 2009. Could you 15 explain what you did there. 16 A. There was one CD which was not 17 in the list, presumably, from an oversight. 18 And on that CD was written "CAIR Statement, 19 June 12th, 2009" so I wrote that in to make 20 sure that that was included in the list. 21 Q. Okay. Now -- now, I recognize 22 that what you're looking at -- and we haven't 23 marked these as exhibits -- but the stack of 24 CDs that we asked you to look through. 25 Obviously, you can't know exactly what's on
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 45 of 129 Page 45 2 each one of these CDs by -- by looking at 3 them, correct, without putting them in a 4 computer and something? 5 A. Yes. 6 MR. MARINO: All right. And I 7 guess what I propose to do, if it's 8 acceptable to counsel, is lay the CDs 9 out, take a photograph of them during 10 a break, if we have to use -- if we 11 have to take two or three photographs, 12 maybe have a two- or three-page 13 exhibit that we can mark and say these 14 are disks, at least -- at least the 15 covers of them, that the witness 16 looked at. 17 And -- and if every -- anybody 18 wants to put them on a computer, I 19 mean, people have laptops here, we can 20 give you access to them, and we can 21 verify what's there. 22 But is that approach acceptable 23 to everyone, just so we have something 24 in the record? 25 MR. YERUSHALMI: Generally,
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 46 of 129 Page 46 2 although my preference would still 3 be -- and I don't mind if you have an 4 Exhibit 1 A, B, C -- 5 MR. MARINO: Right. 6 MR. YERUSHALMI: -- so that we 7 put a tab on the actual -- 8 MR. MARINO: Right. 9 MR. YERUSHALMI: -- physical 10 disk, just because, a picture is a 11 nice thing -- 12 MR. MARINO: Right. 13 MR. YERUSHALMI: -- and it makes 14 it easy for you to talk about -- 15 MR. MARINO: Right. 16 MR. YERUSHALMI: -- but I think 17 in terms of knowing that there is a 18 kind of chain of custody on those 19 disks, that would be preferable. 20 MR. MARINO: Well, the problem 21 is, we're not going to have a chain of 22 -- I mean, there is no way that the 23 witness can say whether or not 24 anything has been altered on -- 25 MR. YERUSHALMI: That's true.
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 47 of 129 Page 47 2 MR. MARINO: -- these disks, 3 so... 4 THE WITNESS: I mean, I know 5 that we -- 6 MR. MARINO: And it's -- 7 THE WITNESS: -- sent this list. 8 BY MR. MARINO: 9 Q. Right. 10 A. And I know that I'm looking at 11 disks that have written on them, with that 12 one exception, the same words that were on 13 this list. 14 Q. Right. And did you -- 15 A. But that's all that I can say, 16 is I see disks that have words on them. 17 Q. Uh-huh. 18 A. And I have a list that has 19 words. 20 Q. When you -- when you reviewed 21 the disks off the record, did you recognize 22 the handwriting on the disks? 23 A. No, I don't, one way or 24 another, but that wouldn't -- I wouldn't 25 recognize --
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 48 of 129 Page 48 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. -- Adam's handwriting. 4 Q. It's not your handwriting 5 that's on the disks? 6 A. No, no, no. 7 MR. MARINO: Okay. 8 MR. YERUSHALMI: So I will 9 withdraw my earlier comment. 10 MR. MARINO: Normally I would 11 substitute a picture of these in the 12 record. And the problem, I mean, I 13 will tell you, some of them are empty, 14 some of the disks are empty, so we're 15 going to have to try to resolve that, 16 Counsel, at some point. But I don't 17 think that's going to impede us today. 18 But I just thought, instead of 19 trying to put more disks, you know, 20 disks, attach them to the record -- 21 MR. SMITH: Right. 22 MR. MARINO: -- that aren't 23 really going to be guaranteed, you 24 know, genuine disks, I mean, we'll 25 just take a photograph of them, and
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 49 of 129 Page 49 2 we'll do that under supervision of 3 everybody, and we'll just attach that 4 to the record, and that will be -- and 5 we'll call that Exhibit 4, even though 6 it may be multiple pages. Okay? 7 MR. SMITH: Uh-huh. 8 (CSP Exhibit No. 4 was herein 9 identified for the record and will be 10 marked for identification.) 11 BY MR. MARINO: 12 Q. So let me ask you to look at 13 Exhibit 3. It's Ms. Brim, correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. And I understand, are 16 you the chief operating officer for the 17 Center for Security Policy? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. How long have you been 20 in that position? 21 A. Since February of 20 -- of 22 2010. 23 Q. Okay. And so in May of 2010 24 you were the chief operating officer, 25 correct?
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 50 of 129 Page 50 2 A. In May of 2010, I was the chief 3 operating officer. 4 Q. All right. And did you review 5 this letter before it was sent to us, Exhibit 6 3 -- or Exhibit CSP 3? 7 A. No, I did not. 8 Q. Do you know if anyone at the 9 center did review it? 10 A. I believe Mr. Corbett was our 11 counsel. 12 Q. Now, was Mr. Corbett outside 13 counsel at that point? 14 A. Well, yes. He is now an 15 employee of the center. 16 Q. Okay. And on this letterhead 17 it says Thomas Moore Law Center. Do you know 18 what that is? 19 MR. SMITH: Dan, I'm going to 20 give you a little bit of leeway just 21 to get some foundational things in, 22 but I don't want to get too far afield 23 of what the judge has now directed us 24 to stick to, so, but with that 25 observation, I just want to point that
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 51 of 129 Page 51 2 out. 3 MR. MARINO: I mean, I am just 4 trying to understand who is, you 5 know -- 6 A. Thomas Moore Law Center is a 7 law center. 8 Q. Do you know how Mr. Corbett 9 came into possession of the 51 CDs he 10 references in this? 11 A. Yes. We sent them to him. 12 Q. Okay. And who is "we" exactly? 13 A. The Center for Security Policy. 14 Q. And who at the center sent them 15 to him? 16 A. I instructed then copies to be 17 made. They were made. They were put in a -- 18 I assume, a Fed Ex package, and it was 19 mailed. 20 Q. And do you know who you 21 instructed to make the copies? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Who is it? 24 A. Adam Savit, S-a-v-i-t. 25 Q. And what is his position?
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 52 of 129 Page 52 2 A. He is an assistant. He is a 3 senior research associate, I think, is his 4 actual title. 5 Q. At the center? 6 A. Yes. He is -- 7 Q. Okay. And is he located here 8 in D.C.? 9 A. Yes, he is. 10 Q. And did you provide -- do you 11 know from what media, if any, Mr. Savit 12 copied the C -- 13 A. Yes. We had original -- 14 Q. Let me finish. 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. It's very important that we -- 17 let me finish the question, and I'll try to 18 let you finish the answer before I start 19 talking. 20 But do you know what media 21 Mr. Savit copied the CDs that we're going to 22 mark as Exhibit 4 from? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Can you tell us. 25 A. The DVDs, and we copied those
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 53 of 129 Page 53 2 DVDs. 3 Q. And do you know where the 4 D -- and do you still have the DVDs in your 5 possession at the center? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Other than the copies that were 8 made to be sent to Mr. Corbett, do you know 9 if other copies have been made? 10 A. No, there have -- there have 11 not been other copies made. 12 Q. And how is it that you know 13 that? 14 A. Let me say this. There have 15 not been other copies made of those DVDs that 16 are in the possession of the Center for 17 Security Policy. If other copies have been 18 made elsewhere in the world, I have no 19 knowledge of that. 20 Q. And, if you know, how did the 21 center receive the DVDs that you still have 22 in your possession? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. How did you receive them? 25 A. By -- they were personally
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 54 of 129 Page 54 2 delivered. 3 Q. By whom? 4 A. Usually Dave Gaubatz. 5 Q. And in whose possession were 6 they delivered? 7 A. Mine. 8 Q. And when did Mr. Gaubatz 9 deliver them to you, Dave Gaubatz, I should 10 say? 11 A. Typically, shortly after they 12 had been made, sometimes up to two to three 13 weeks afterwards. 14 Q. Now, you said typically -- did 15 you say typically it was Dave Gaubatz? 16 A. Occasionally. I believe we may 17 have had one or two delivered by Christopher 18 Gaubatz. 19 Q. Did anyone else deliver them to 20 you? 21 A. No. 22 Q. And were all the -- the DVDs -- 23 well, let me ask it this way. 24 Were there 51 DVDs delivered to 25 you?
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 55 of 129 Page 55 2 A. No, because sometimes we would 3 get a memory card, but then we would copy 4 that into a separate DVD? 5 Q. Who would do that exactly? 6 A. I am trying to remember. I 7 guess I would. We have a memory card reader, 8 and then I would make a DVD. 9 Q. And did you retain the memory 10 cards that you received? 11 A. No. 12 Q. What did you do with those? 13 A. We gave them back to the 14 Gaubatzes. 15 Q. And where were you when the 16 Gaubatzes delivered either the memory cards 17 or DVDs to you? 18 A. Center for Security Policy. 19 Q. In Washington, D.C.? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And all of these were delivered 22 to you during 2008, I take it? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. And why were they being 25 delivered to you?
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 56 of 129 Page 56 2 A. They were being delivered to me 3 because we had asked for copies of them. 4 Q. When you say "we asked for 5 copies," who -- who do -- who do you mean? 6 A. Center for Security Policy. 7 Q. But who at the center asked for 8 copies? 9 A. We were getting copies of them 10 as an institution. 11 Q. Someone asked the Gaubatzes to 12 provide them, correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Who was that? 15 A. I guess it would be me, but we 16 had an agreement with them to provide them, 17 as the Center for Security Policy. 18 Q. Well, when you say you guess it 19 would be you. Was there anyone else that had 20 discussions with the Gaubatzes about the 21 recordings other than yourself? 22 MR. SMITH: If the witness 23 knows, do you mean? 24 MR. MARINO: Well, she can't 25 tell me something she doesn't know.
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 57 of 129 Page 57 2 MR. SMITH: Correct. 3 THE WITNESS: I had discussions 4 with the Gaubatzes about the 5 recordings on the receipt of the 6 recordings. 7 BY MR. MARINO: 8 Q. I'm sorry. Say that again, 9 please. 10 A. I -- I think I was the only 11 person that really -- that had discussions 12 with the Gaubatzes about the receipt of the 13 recordings. Later, after -- 14 Q. I'm sorry. Are you saying the 15 receipt of the recordings? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. About the receipt, 19 r-e-c-e-i-p-t, of the recordings. 20 Q. All right. 21 A. The actual receipt of them as 22 they were made. 23 Q. You say that your understanding 24 is that the recordings were provided to you 25 pursuant to an agreement that the Gaubatzes
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 58 of 129 Page 58 2 had with -- 3 A. The Center for Security Policy. 4 Q. -- the Center for Security 5 Policy, correct? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. And was the agreement with the 8 Gaubatzes personally? 9 A. There were multiple agreements. 10 Q. Okay. Well, how many 11 agreements were there for the Gaubatzes to 12 provide recordings to you? 13 A. I think we have two. I think 14 there's two specific ones. 15 Q. Were these written agreements? 16 A. Yes, they were. 17 Q. And who signed the agreements? 18 A. I don't know right off the bat. 19 It was not me. It was not me. I did not do 20 those -- I did not sign those. 21 Q. And you've seen the agreements? 22 A. I can -- I have seen them. I 23 don't have the memory of them in mind. I 24 mean, I don't -- I don't have them in front 25 of me.
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 59 of 129 Page 59 2 Q. And what are the agreements -- 3 what do the agreements address? 4 A. I'd have to have them in front 5 of me -- 6 MR. SMITH: I'm going to -- 7 THE WITNESS: -- to see that. 8 MR. SMITH: I'm going to -- 9 If I can step in for a second. 10 I think we're getting pretty far 11 afield now of possession or her access 12 to recorded material allegedly 13 obtained. 14 The judge's instruction is that 15 you can ask about the material, and I 16 think we're going beyond that. 17 MR. MARINO: Well, I still have 18 to ask the questions. I mean, I think 19 we're going to have to bring all this 20 to the Court -- 21 MR. SMITH: I think we probably 22 will too. 23 MR. MARINO: -- and maybe to 24 other courts. But we'll just to have 25 to ask the questions as we --
Case 1:09-cv-02030-CKK Document 48-3 Filed 04/12/11 Page 60 of 129 Page 60 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. 3 MR. MARINO: -- as we go. 4 BY MR. MARINO: 5 Q. Do you know what the agreements 6 addressed? 7 A. I would have to have the 8 agreements in front of me to answer your 9 question. 10 Q. Was one of the terms of the 11 agreements that the Gaubatzes would provide 12 recordings to the Center for Security Policy 13 that were made at CAIR? 14 MR. SMITH: I am going to object 15 and just instruct the witness not to 16 answer, Dan. 17 I think we are going to have to 18 take this up with the Court because I 19 think we're beyond the scope of the 20 order at this point. 21 BY MR. MARINO: 22 Q. Did the agreements address what 23 the center was supposed to do with the 24 recordings? 25 A. You know, I can't talk about