Islam & the West Globe and Mail Update, 7 juin 2006 Police arrested 12 men and five youths on the weekend, accusing them of allegedly plotting to bomb several locations in Ontario. All the adults have been charged with participating in a terrorist organization. The fact that all the accused were of the Muslim faith has not been lost on the public or within the Muslim community. In fact, the conflict between extremists and more moderate Islamists is felt nowhere more strongly than within the Muslim community itself. To get a better sense of how Canadian Muslims feel about that rift and the community's place within Western society, we've invited two prominent members of the community to take your questions today. Hussein Hamdani is a lawyer who sits on the federal Cross-Cultural Roundtable on Security. He is also heavily involved in the Muslim community, working with youth to try to discourage radical interpretations of Islam. Aly Hindy is a conservative imam at the Salaheddin Islamic Centre in Scarborough, Ont. He is the former director of the Canadian Islamic Congress and knew nine of the men arrested on the weekend. The questions and answers appear at the bottom of this page. Editor's Note: globeandmail.com editors will read and allow or reject each question/comment. Comments/questions may be edited for length or clarity. HTML is not allowed. We will not publish questions/comments that include personal attacks on participants in these discussions, that make false or unsubstantiated allegations, that purport to quote people or reports where the purported quote or fact cannot be easily verified, or questions/comments that include vulgar language or libellous statements. Preference will be given to readers who submit questions/comments using their full name and home town, rather than a pseudonym. Editors Note: Mr. Hindy had technical problems and answered as many questions as he could in the available time. He was, however, not able to answer as many questions as Mr. Hamdani.
Jim Sheppard, Executive Editor, globeandmail.com: Welcome to both of you and thank you for joining us today on globeandmail.com The topic is one of great interest and great import. We have a huge number of questions from our readers. Before we begin, can I ask you both for some opening comments on the Muslim community in Canada. What is the mood in the wake of the weekend arrests and the vast media coverage? What kind of debate is taking place about the appropriate balance between practising and defending your faith, and the kind of radicalization that could lead to violence? Aly Hindy: The reaction? Fear, disbelief and lots of suspicion. The fear comes from the way those 17 indivduals grouped together. Any one in the [Muslim] community easily can be connected and linked to another in such a way that the authorities in this country can arrest whoever they like. The suspicion is about the timing of the arrests (why it was premature) and about the targets (why they were only Canadian). Hussein Hamdani: The mood among Canadian Muslims is a combination of fear, anger, apprehension, gratitude and disappointment. Fear of potential backlash against the community, that there may be some out there who will wrongfully blame the whole community for the alleged actions of a tiny few. The mosques that I attend in Burlington and St. Catharines were fire-bombed after 9/11 and I pray that the vandalism seen in Toronto does not spread to other cities. Anger at the accused [assuming that they are found guilty in a court of law] for ruining it for the rest of us. The Canadian Muslim community has made tremendous strides in integrating with the larger Canadian community. There have been more open houses at mosques in 2005 than in any other year in Canada. More people are getting to know us and we are getting to know them. Now, maybe, these arrests will set the clock back to an age of suspicion and intolerance. Apprehension what happens now? It is a terrible feeling of impotence when you do not know what will happen next. Will there be mass reprisals? Will there be other youth drawn to radicalism? What can we do about it? Is it my fault? Could I have done something to prevent this? It is a terrible, confusing time for many youth leaders in the community. Disappointment in ourselves that we may have allowed these young guys to become radicalized. I know that I have given talks at McMaster University and in Mississauga, so it is possible that one or two of the accused may have heard me speak before. I failed in reaching out to them, even though I am not even sure if they were in attendance or not.
Gratitude at the police and security agencies for preventing a disaster, and for working with the Muslim community. It is important to note that the RCMP received information about the accused from within the Muslim community. In other words, there is a relationship with the police and the community. Also, we are grateful that the police have said very clearly that the whole Muslim community is not under arrest, just some wayward youth. Harry Schmidt, Shanghai, China: Why did nobody in the Islamic community come forward and report some of the suspects to the authorities? Hussein Hamdani: Thank you for your question. Actually, the RCMP has stated that they received information from within the Muslim community. It is important to encourage an open, transparent relationship. Aly Hindy: Simply because there was no terrorist activities. Mind you, I [have] reported to the police... [a previous instance when I heard about things that concerned me] Charles Raymond, Windsor, Ont.: I am very critical of the Islamic leadership in Canada. It appears to me that the Islamic community and other ethnic/religious groups have segregated themselves from most aspects of Canadian society under the guise of multiculturalism. There are a lot of Canadians who feel that multiculturalism as practiced in Canada has spawned ethnic and religious groups who think that their values and beliefs supercede Canadian values. I personally see multiculturalism as a major impediment to Canada's development as a cohesive democratic country. What are your comments? Aly Hindy: There is nothing wrong with multiculturalism. We as Muslim have not isolated ourselves from the rest of the society. Myself, I am very successful structural engineer and a father to children who are doctors and engineers as well. It is also my duty as a Canadian Muslim to spread the high moral Muslim values to our fellow non-muslim Canadians. Hussein Hamdani: Charles, I also have to disagree with you on this one. While members of the Muslim community should rightfully be criticized, it is not fair to blame the whole community or all leaders. Often, we complain that the moderates, the centrists in our community are not being played or printed in the media. The media tends to focus on the extremes in the community whether they be extreme liberals or extreme orthodox. Only rarely do the boring, majority, middle-of-the-road Muslims get heard. So please understand that we are trying to be heard, but it is a tough road.
As for multiculturalism, while I agree with you that ghetto-ization is a dysfunctional phenomenon, I would not accuse the Muslims of it. In Canada, especially in the urban areas, people have always tended to live close to others of similar backgrounds. At one time, there were more Italians living in Little Italy in Toronto than in any city in the world outside of Rome. There will always be Chinatowns. I think that this is wonderful to the extent that you and I, who may not be Chinese, can go and visit Spadina Street in Toronto, and feel like we are in a different world. What an experience. Only in Canada!!! It is when communities build walls of intolerance that we should be critical. Jim Terrets, Vancouver: It seems that when it comes to Muslims accused of crimes, our government is more inclined to build barriers and raise tensions between Muslims and non-muslims by issuing statements such as those made by Mr. Harper, and by making massive shows of police force (i.e., the 400 police at the Brampton courthouse where those accused of terrorism were remanded this weekend). What steps should our governments be taking to place these events in their proper perspective, reduce tensions and enhance relations between our various communities? Aly Hindy: They should not make the case as public as they have made it. They should refrain from commending any official from the police forces/rcmp/ CSIS for work done until the courts rule in this case. Hussein Hamdani: Well, while I agree that the government must make every effort to ensure that the whole Muslim community is not painted with the same guilty brush as those accused and while I agree that 400 officers is over the top, thankfully, this is allegedly the first major incident of planned terrorism [in Canada] since Air-India, so I think they wanted to have too many officers there, rather than too little. It is hard to be critical of the police agencies at this time, since they may have thwarted a disaster [all this needs to be played out in a court of law]. S. Jamal: What would you suggest non-muslims do to become better-informed about Islam and its followers? Is it eough to read the newspapers, watch the news or read English translations of the Koran, and if not then what more? Hussein Hamdani: Jamal, Islam is the world's fastest-growing religion. It is also Canada's fastest-growing religion. People should not be scared, but it behooves all of us to get to know each other a bit better. I think that the Muslim community needs to do a better job explaining itself and making itself known to its neighbours.
I think non-muslim Canadians should also make an effort to get to know their Muslim neighbours and the religion of Islam. Generally speaking, it is easy to demonize a people we do not know. It is much harder to demonize someone who you actually get to know and then realize they are not much different than you. Let's not demonize one another, and consider each other as the "other," but rather let's meet one another and build a great country together. Henry Canadian, Toronto: This question is for both Mr. Hamdani and Mr. Hindy. If you had reason to believe that your son, nephew, a friend's son, or any member of your mosque was involved with a group planning a terrorist action, what would you do? Aly Hindy: If it was my son, I would talk to him first. Or if it's my friend's son, I would talk to his father and him together. Eventually, we will go together to the authorities to alert them to what is going on. Hussein Hamdani: Henry, that is a great question. My first instinct would be to inform the police of such behaviour, just like the local Muslim community informed the RCMP when they felt these young guys were into no good. However, I think all parents, regardless of faith, would do whatever they could to save their children from harm, and would probably want to teach, negotiate, convince their child that this is not appropriate behaviour. The question remains, if the parent is unsuccessful, would they turn their own child in to the police? You don't have to be Muslim to understand that this is tough question to answer. Nonetheless, I have no hesitation saying that generally speaking, all Canadians must be vigilant in ensuring that no criminal, anti-social or even worst, terror activities are being planned. If they get wind of it, they must inform the proper authorities immediately. Kevin Knelman, Brampton, Ont.: I begin by saying that I am part of a large group of westerners (perhaps a majority) who think the United States' activities (and its supporters) in foreign lands are deplorable and unjustified. I also believe in peaceful diplomacy as a means of making change. Terrorism by its nature preys on the innocent. Since the terrorist feels helpless in attacking his real enemy, he takes his revenge on an easier, softer, unsuspecting target. Will someone explain why, throughout the Islamic world, young people are being taught that violence is a valid way, first of all to improve their lot in life and secondly to protect Islam? Both al Qaeda representatives and the Taliban have stated westerners will never understand them, because we love life too much and they embrace death. Is this true? All of the above boils down to one big question: Is it possible for Islam to live in peace with the non-islamic world?
Hussein Hamdani: Kevin, thank you for the question. I agree with you wholeheartedly that while one may disagree with the domestic or foreign policies of a particular government, there are non-violent ways in a democracy of addressing these grievances. These non-violent ways of addressing grievances are equally available to all citizens vote for someone else at election time, write a letter to the editor, organize a march or a rally etc. All citizens regardless of faith or ethnicity need to understand that there is no licence at all for using violence against innocents. In fact, all faiths, including Islam, denounce the use of violence against innocents. So why do al-qaeda and others resort to violence? While we sometimes explain the answer using psychological terms such as they feel alienated and disenfranchised, they feel that their own country has declared war on them, they feel impotent etc., this does not address the theological reasons. I believe that the Muslim community must come to terms with some of the radical teachings that are taught in some communities. It seems to me that these young guys were radicalized by the eldest of the group who acted as a mentor. While the vast majority of Canadian Muslims [honestly] do not subscribe to such radical, literalist, puritanical teachings, some do. The Muslim community must confront such teachings head on... and we are doing so. We need your help by not making it more difficult on us and blaming all of us for the actions of a few. As for Muslims living together with non-muslims, the truth is that Islam has been around for 1,400 years. Millions and millions of Muslims have lived and co-existed with non- Muslims for the most part. Let's not take the last 50 years and ignore the first 1,350. Muslims and non-muslims have always lived together peacefully, and will continue to do so. There will be bumps along the way, but we will find ways together to deal with them. Kate Steele, Moose Jaw, Sask.: How do both or either of you respond to the suggestions by a few Muslim leaders that the timing of these arrests seems suspicious and may have been timed to coincide with Supreme Court hearings that could give Canadian authorities the power to detain any suspect without charge? Aly Hindy: I say it is very suspicious especially when there was no imminent attack and when the evidence [revealed so far] seems not complete enough to support a good case.
Salman Haq, Toronto: I am a young Muslim, born and raised in Canada. I only went to mosques on special holidays when I was younger. When I grew older, I wanted to be more spiritual, but was completely turned off by the language and the invectives that I heard by imams at mosques. There are very, very few mosques that actually speak out about tolerance, diversity, and yes, practising your faith in a secular society. I often heard things like "stand up for your brothers and sisters oppressed in Palestine, Russia, etc." Why didn't I ever hear "stand up for people who are oppressed EVERYWHERE in the world?" That's the true message of Islam, and nobody at a mosque will say it. And that is the problem. Moderate Muslims like myself do not have a place in mosques because they are largely controlled by conservatives. Hussein Hamdani: Salman, I agree with you 100% that many talks at the mosque need to be more spiritually inclined and give a better, holistic understanding of Islam. I, too, get upset at what I hear at the mosques. However, there are many Muslim organizations that I believe that you will feel comfortable in. For instance, the Ihya Foundation is an organization that promotes a more-tolerant understanding of Islam. As well, there are many mosques out there that are just fine. There are a few that are not, so we should stay clear of them. Help us inform those who run the mosques to provide a more balanced understanding of Islam. I must say, the language for the most part has changed dramatically in the last few years. There is a still a ways to go, but we are on a positive direction. Lastly, remember that the most important thing in your life is your relationship with your Creator. No one can take that away from you, and you do not need to attend a mosque to maintain that relationship. So even if you are not comfortable at your local mosque, continue to pray and be a good human being. Take care. K. Jaffry, Toronto: As a Muslim living in Canada, I am very disturbed by the recent events. As if being a visible minority and a Muslim is not enough of a handicap when living in Canada, now we are being judged by a few bad apples. Shouldn't the Muslim community speak our more against such individuals? Hussein Hamdani: You are a member of the community and thus have a role to play. You must speak to your neighbours and co-workers about your understanding of Islam. It is easy to point to others and say: "Hey you, you are not doing enough." The more difficult question to ask is: Am I doing enough?
Jim Sheppard, Executive Editor, globeandmail.com: Thank you both for spending extra time with us today, taking questions from our readers. Any closing thoughts? Hussein Hamdani: I want to thank everyone for their questions. Many were profound. It is important to remember that for the continued safety and security of Canada and Canadians, we should look at three tracks [in no particular order]: Government policy: It is important that all levels of government be sensitive to understand the impact that legislation or policies may have on all communities. Whether this be domestic or foreign policy, we do not want a singular community feeling "picked on" by its own government. Such a feeling will lead to alienation and disenfranchisement. This does not mean that the respective governments should not introduce controversial laws that may be unpopular. Rather, it means that any laws should not disproportionately affect one community more than others. Muslims cleaning house: It is critically important that the Muslim community must root out radical teachings from its own midst. Islam has a zero-tolerance for inciting hatred against another people or faith, and it is about time we enforced this rule. We cannot allow hate to be spoken or taught in our centres. Only a holistic interpretation of Islam should be taught, an interpretation that maintains spirituality and the cleansing of hearts as central tenet of the faith. Puritanical, literalist teachings that have been foreign to Islamic societies for centuries should not be allowed to take root here. For the most part, Muslims have done a very good job of this but must continue the work. We all must get to know one another: It is easy to demonize someone you do not know, but much harder to do that to someone you know. So let's get to know one another and shatter the walls of intolerance and mistrust. It is important for all of us to visit the local mosques, synogogues, temples, gurdwaras, churches to meet our neighbours and fellow citizens. We cannot allow grand and negative generalizations of the other to be our guiding light to the other. Instead, we must take the leap of faith and introduce ourselves to each other... We will then realize that we are all the same with similar concerns our children's health, education, paying debt, eating right etc. We are all one big family. So let's not divide ourselves unnecessarily. Thank you for your time. If there is any benefit from what I wrote, all praise belongs to God Almighty. Only the mistakes were mine. Editors Note: Mr. Hindy had technical problems and answered as many questions as he could in the available time. He was, however, not able to answer as many questions as Mr. Hamdani.
Jim Sheppard, Executive Editor, globeandmail.com: To our readers, thank you for the extraordinary number of questions you submitted for this discussion. If you have a comment about it, please submit it in the usual fashion or use this link to do so. If you have any questions or comment about the format of this discussion, or if you wish to suggest guests for future discussions, please feel free to e-mail me your views.