Interview with HIS EMINENCE TAI SITU RINPOCHE The following is an interview requested by Zhyisil Chokyi Ghatsal for Thar Lam and generously granted by His Eminence Tai Situ Rinpoche in India 2004. ZCG: Your Eminence, you have said that as an incarnate Lama it is your responsibility to preserve the Buddha dharma and as a Tibetan to preserve Tibet s heritage. As these two are, at times, almost inseparable, how do you strike a balance between preserving Tibetan Buddhism and allowing it to adapt organically to new environments? Rinpoche: Very simple. I do my best to preserve Tibetan culture and heritage and when I teach dharma, I teach it according to the lineage. At the same time everything I do is the continuation of the works of previous Tai Situpas, this means it is very natural and very simple. Adaptation to a new environment, and all of these things, will happen by themselves. If you do it intentionally, when you try to make a horse you will end up with a camel. Leave it as it is and one thing will develop into a horse, another into a camel. It will happen by itself. You 44 Thar Lam AUGUST 2005
should not change anything intentionally, but it will evolve by itself. For example, the robes that Buddhist monks wore in India during the time of the Buddha were impossible to wear in Tibet we would have had a lot of frozen monks therefore, Tibetan types of clothing had to be worn. Likewise we do not need to intentionally change things, changes will happen by themselves, over the years if not immediately. This will happen and it will be absolutely natural. When you intentionally try to change things, especially the teachings themselves, you are contaminating the teaching you shouldn t do that. It will evolve by itself, in the west, in the east, in the north, in the south, in the central areas everywhere it will adapt by itself. ZCG: How can Buddhists integrate practice into a modern, busy life? Rinpoche: There is no other way. If they don t adapt and integrate their practice into their modern, busy, daily lives where will they practice? I will leave it up to them. They will manage. I will not interfere. It depends on what kind of modern life they have whether it is a busy one or a not so busy one and according to that they will practice. They should just do their best. Everybody is capable of adapting practice into his or her own environment. For me to say from my environment here how to adapt the practice in your environment there which I haven t even seen, don t even know and don t even live in would not work. It will happen by itself. Lamas who live over there can help you a little bit, but it is very much an individual thing. You can make your own practice time and situation fit into your kind of environment, your kind of job, your kind of way of life. ZCG: Can you please advise us how to maintain purity on the Buddhist path and avoid habitual, egoistic patterns. For example, in the west when people first enter the Buddhist path they have a lot of interest and sincerity but after a while they become numb, loose their sincerity, increase their ego and only want higher teachings. They think teachings such as those on refuge and the foundations are no longer relevant. Rinpoche: Well I think the first part [of this scenario] is normal and there is something wrong with the second part. Teachings on refuge, bodhichitta, the foundations and all of these things are relevant at all times. As you build your building higher you have to think of your foundation more, the higher the building the heavier it becomes. If your foundation isn t good the building will not stand. In the same way, the foundation is the most important practice. As you upgrade your practice, you also have to upgrade your foundation practice. A tree grows down as well as up. Otherwise it may be a big tree and just a little wind will blow it over. Similarly, the foundation practice is always relevant. As to the second part of the question, people should never become egoistic because we practice the dharma in order to overcome ego. If by learning the dharma you develop ego that means you did not understand the dharma very well. I think it should be the opposite of this the more you learn the dharma, the less ego you have. It is quite simple, the more you learn, the more you learn how much you don t know. This makes you more humble. Foundation practice is always, always important. I don t think it is only a western thing, it is natural for anybody who doesn t understand dharma clearly to be like this. They have to have a clear understanding of what dharma is, what dharma practice is for and why we do dharma practice. That is, to overcome our ego. ZCG: From the lineage perspective, what is the most beneficial for group and individual practice, chanting in Tibetan or English? Rinpoche: Until we have the lineage of transmission in a particular language then it is very important to chant in the lineage s original language. The moment it is transmitted in that particular language, it becomes similar to the original language. For example, Tibetans have most of our prayers in Tibetan but all of the mantras and most of the beginning of the practices are always in Sanskrit. It is very important to keep it this way because it is the source the lineage s origin. To say the prayers in English is absolutely fine but for this to be of equal benefit to saying it in Tibetan, or Sanskrit, you have to receive the transmission in English. ZCG: Can you please say something about establishing centres, hosting teachers, publishing dharma texts, etc, the ways to preserve the Buddhadharma and benefit others? Rinpoche: Whenever there is a group of people who want to learn dharma, then make a centre available. When the group becomes bigger the center should become bigger. When there are a number of people who wish to become ordained sangha then there should be a temple. When there are a number of people who would like to do retreat, then there should be a retreat centre. When there are a number of people who would like to study the dharma in Thar Lam AUGUST 2005 45
depth, then there should be some kind of Shedra (Institute for Higher Buddhist Studies). All of these things should happen according to people s needs. We should not look at the map and say, we have a centre here and a centre here, but not there. Therefore we have to make a centre there. We should not do it like this. If we have people somewhere who wish to learn dharma, who are interested, and they do not have a place then we should make a centre there. This is how it should be. Or, we may have a group of people who have a centre but need a bigger place and it is impossible to get a bigger place where they are because it is very expensive and there is no land available. Then we should look for land for these people somewhere else. We should not become like missionary Buddhists. It should be natural, people should come for it first and then we should provide it for them. We shouldn t go and knock on their doors and preach to them. It should be natural. Everybody has Buddha essence anyway so we are not desperate. ZCG: We have a prison dharma program here, and also many Buddhists in the west are now involved with working with prisoners. Can you please give us some advice for working with prisoners? Rinpoche: I have never been to a prison to teach dharma so I really don t have any experience. I think it would be very beneficial though, because in prison people have lots of time and if they learn how to meditate, chant, practice and recite, prison could become a retreat for them. It is a wonderful, wonderful way to help people. Of course the number one thing should be that they are interested in learning the dharma. You can t just say, Okay, there is a prison so I am going to go and teach dharma in it. They have to be interested in learning the dharma and then after they have learnt something then you can go and teach them, provide for them. You could also, as a dharma person, go there and be sympathetic and give your support and help even to prisoners that are not really interested in learning about the dharma. You can do that, but that doesn t mean you try to make them Buddhist. There are these two ways of helping. You could just go there as a human being, as a Buddhist, to help people who are in trouble. Alternatively, go there and teach dharma. It is two different ways. Go there and teach dharma if they ask but go there and help them even when they don t ask because you are sure that they need help. Living in prison, ending up in prison is not fun they need help so you go and help if you can. You can help in two different ways. Also dharma books should be available in prison libraries, actually not just prison libraries, but general public libraries. People go to libraries with an open mind and they should have all the choices they can. If we keep our books in our centres, not that many people come to the centres so most people will not have the chance to even know such books exist. If they are in the library however, then they are available to the general public. It doesn t mean we are trying to persuade them to become Buddhist, but these books should be available for them. ZCG: These days, especially in the west many young people have no self-respect and value for themselves. This often leads to depression and even suicide. Can you please give some advice on this? Rinpoche: I don t know exactly why this happens, but it does seem to be the case and not only in the west but also in the east. I think it probably has something to do with the school system, the media and the entertainment business. It might have something to do with all of these. Because of this children have not had a chance to be children. Children are like adults already and there is no balance for them. This has something to do with the whole social system. When you are a child you should be a child, when you are a teenager you should be a teenager, when you are an adult then you should be an adult, and when you are an old person then you should be an old person. There is some kind of confusion though, some kind of fault in the system, which does not allow this natural process to function as it should. I know there are eight or nine year old kids who speak as though they are fifty years old. Irresponsibly we can say, Wow, it s amazing, wonderful. If you really think carefully, however, then something is wrong. These children do not have the opportunity to grow up, to become teenagers, then adults and then old people. They are already old people when they are eight/ nine years old. Then what? Something is very strange. I have seen this quite a few times, not only in the west but also in the east. I cannot put my finger on it exactly. I think it has something to do with exposure but I really don t know. Physically they grow very big but that is different, that is because of the food and mentally they become adults when they are still children. It is a little bit unnatural. I think it will take care of itself but a few generations will have to go through whatever harm it causes. I am sure there is a positive side to it as well. I 46 Thar Lam AUGUST 2005
saw one teenager on the television, a boy, and he had a full time job. He was a computer wizard. In India he was called Babu. Babu means like sir or like CEO. He was a CEO but he was a teenager. A professional, CEO teenager! So, from one side it is wonderful but then there is this other side, it is exactly the way you described it in your question. ZCG: Euthanasia is a very controversial issue these days. Can you please give the Buddhist view on this? Rinpoche: Well I think it depends on the real situation. You may be in a war and the enemy may be extremely vicious. In this situation, if your friend was wounded and not going to survive, which meant the enemy was going to chop him into pieces, and instead of this you took his life as he asked you to do, I can t say it s good karma but it is a naturally loyal and kind way to behave. Instead of letting the enemy catch him, abuse, humiliate, and skin him alive you would have instead ended his life quickly. This is one situation. Another situation could be that someone is very sick. I think when someone is very sick you should do your best to control their pain as much as possible. You should make them as comfortable as possible and let them die naturally. I think this is the best way. The dying patient will die anyway but instead of dying painfully or killing them you give them painkillers. You don t kill them but you kill their pain. Then you give them the opportunity to have some positive thoughts. You give them some peace because they have no pain. If you give them lots of painkillers then you let them die peacefully and as naturally as possible. I think that s the best way. ZCG: What is the difference then between someone who is quite old and on whom painkillers don t work anymore and the situation you described in the war where someone is going to suffer and get cut up? If someone is very old and their painkillers do not work they may feel because of their situation that they are quite dependent and quite humiliated by their life continuing on like this. Rinpoche: That is very different. There is a very big difference. If there is an old person who is respected by all their relatives including their grandchildren everybody is taking care of them and they have painkillers, that is a very different situation. Painkillers work for everybody, some people may need three or four doses and others may need just half a dose but they work. Then there is the mental pain to consider. Everybody the relatives, friends, loved ones, religious people, whomever this person believes in should really spend their time with this person and try to make him or her feel loved and cared for. In this way it will become a healthy situation. You cannot say, Oh, he s going to die anyway. I said goodbye to him so now I m not going to see him anymore. Don t do it like this. This is the time when Thar Lam AUGUST 2005 47
THE EIGHTH TAI SITU CHOKYI JUNGNE. PHOTO COURTESY OF CHUANG DER BUDDHIST ANTIQUES LTD your loved ones need you the most, so you should leave everything aside and be with them. I think it has a lot to do not only with the dying person but also the living people. The living people should make the dying person feel loved and as though they want to live even a few minutes more if possible. The situation in a war that I described earlier is totally different. If the enemy is civilised being a POW is very good (laughter). Otherwise the kind of savage treatment you can get in a lawless situation if you are caught and wounded can be very, very bad. Can you imagine every finger, every joint of your finger, removed one by one? It would be very painful. I have heard so many stories of this kind from people who survived wars and I think it is very, very bad. In this situation you should do your best to carry your friend, but then that also could be very difficult. Then you could help him so that he does not have to endure such a thing. I think this is an extreme situation and I cannot say it is good karma it is still bad karma. As a human being though, you care for your friend so therefore even though you know you will have the bad karma of ending somebody s life, you may take it on because of your loyalty to your friend. He might say, Please, please don t leave me here like this, and he will mean it because he does not want to be skinned alive. This would not happen in a civilised war. In a civilised war you could leave your wounded friend so he would be taken to hospital and they would maybe question him but that would be about it. He would be a POW, protected by the Geneva Convention, and not mistreated. There would not be a problem. ZCG: You have been involved a lot in the promotion of world peace. How do you think Buddhism can contribute to this and to harmony in the environment? Rinpoche: I think that is what Buddhism is all about. Everything in Buddhism is done for peace and harmony within oneself and peace and harmony with everybody else. Just by practicing dharma, I think we are contributing to world peace. Imagine if 10% of the world population was to, not necessarily become Buddhist but, meditate. Imagine if they were to do Shamatha every 48 Thar Lam AUGUST 2005
TAI SITU RINPOCHE PERFORMING THE RED HAT CEREMONY day for half an hour. How much difference would it make to human society? If 10% of the people on Earth did Shamatha meditation, not necessarily became Buddhist, but just calmed down and relaxed for half an hour everyday, what kind of difference would it make? They would see things more clearly and could somehow harmonize the other 90% quite a lot. They could influence the other 90% of the people to become more harmonious. This perspective is very important. For example, imagine that every world leader, as soon as they become President or Prime Minister, was taken in a space shuttle up into space and looked at the Earth for twentyfour hours. What kind of leader would they become? What kind of change would occur in their mind about what they are dealing with? They would have a greater perspective. Shamatha is like that. When you have good Shamatha you will have a greater perspective. You will see the whole situation in a healthier and clearer manner. Not just in a hodge podge, mixed up manner. It would make a big difference. ZCG: Can you please say something about Palpung Monastery? Rinpoche: Palpung Monastery is unique because it was established by the eighth Tai Situ. Before the eighth Tai Situ, the previous seven Tai Situs seat had been Karma Gon, which is one of the three main Dharma Seats of the Karma Kagyu lineage. Before the first Tai Situ, the Tai Situ incarnations did not have the name Tai Situ. The title Tai Situ began in 1407 AD. That means the title Tai Situ is almost 600 years old. Before this title came about the incarnations were also Karma Kagyu though, from the time of the first Karmapa, Dusum Khyenpa. The first Karmapa, Dusum Khyenpa s main disciple was Drogon Rachen. Drogon Rachen was the incarnation of the incarnation of the incarnation of Marpa Lotsawa. He became the main disciple of the first Karmapa, and the following Tai Situ lineage became Karma Kagyu Masters. Drogon Rachen was not the guru of the second Karmapa but Drogon Rachen s disciple, Gyaltsab Pom Trakpa became the second Karmapa s guru. Therefore the lineage went: the first Karmapa, Drogon Raychen, Gyaltsab Pom Trakpa and then the second Karmapa, like that. From that time onwards, many times, the Tai Situpas Thar Lam AUGUST 2005 49
CEREMONY AT PALPUNG SHERAB LING, PHOTO COURTESY OF CLAIRE PULLINGER have been both the disciples and gurus of the Karmapas and many times they have been the disciples but not the gurus of the Karmapa. Even before Drogon Raychen the Tai Situpas were the followers of the Marpa Kagyu the origin of the Karma Kagyu and all the other Kagyu branches. The first Tibetan incarnation of the Tai Situpa lineage was Marpa Lotsawa, who went to India to receive instructions. In India he received transmissions from Naropa and the lineage he brought back to Tibet is called the Marpa Kagyu. The Marpa Kagyu continued through Milarepa to Gampopa. Gampopa had four major disciples from which comes the four main Kagyu lineages including the Karma Kagyu and one of his disciples, Phagmodrupa, had eight disciples, which is where the eight branches of the Kagyu lineage come from. These are called the four major and eight minor lineages. It does not mean the major are greater and the minor are lesser though. It refers to whether their founders were Gampopa s direct disciple or the disciples of Gampopa s disciple. 50 Thar Lam AUGUST 2005
The Karma Kagyu itself has several branches also, such as the Surmang Kagyu and the Nenga Kagyu etc. The Karma Kagyu originally had three main seats but two of these seats ceased to be that active. This meant that after the eighth Tai Situpa built Palpung Monastery, Tsurphu the seat of His Holiness the Karmapa became the Supreme Seat of the Karma Kagyu lineage and Palpung became the second seat of the Karma Kagyu lineage. All the branches, Monasteries and congregations that were under Palpung s administration added up to 180 Monastic branches and thirteen Monastic Estates. There are also many other Monasteries that are not even Karma Kagyu some of them are Nyingma, there is a few Gelug and quite a few Bonpo as well as other Kagyu branches that are somewhat looked after by the Palpung Seat. We call them, not exactly branches but, associated branches. They have had trouble and have come to us, so we have to take care of them. I am talking about the situation pre 1959. After 1959 everything was in chaos. The Shangpa Kagyu was also revived and practiced at Palpung. During the time of Marpa, there was a great Tibetan master, called Khedrup Khyungpo Naljor. He went to India and received teaching transmissions from Niguma and Sukasiddhi, two enlightened female mahasiddhas, and his lineage is called the Shangpa Kagyu. The Marpa and Shangpa Kagyu are the two forms of the Kagyu lineage. The Shangpa Kagyu almost disappeared. Then the ninth Tai Situ Pema Nyinche Wangpo discovered Jamgon Kongtrul Lodro Thaye as a young person and he raised him. He named him Jamgon Kongtrul Lodro Thaye. Later he became a great master and one of the heads of a renaissance that took place in Tibet. Between the Chen-kyong Choksum (the three supreme, great protectors) Jamgon Kongtrul Lodro Thaye, Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo and Chokgyur Dechen Lingpa these three great masters, a nonsectarian renaissance took place. During this time, Jamgon Kongtrul Lodro Thaye revived the Shangpa Kagyu lineage at Palpung Monastery. Thereafter Palpung Monastery also became, somehow, the seat of the Shangpa Kagyu as well. Later on, however, the original seat of the Shangpa Kagyu, which is in Central Tibet, was also revived. This was during the time of Kalu Rinpoche. Kalu Rinpoche had been the retreat master of two out of the three retreat centres at Palpung Monastery. One of the retreat centres was a Shangpa retreat centre, and the other was the Six Yogas of Naropa retreat centre. After this, he went to Central Tibet where the original Shangpa Seat was and did a lot to restore it. In this way the Shangpa Seat was restored. If this had not happened we couldn t be sure the Shangpa Kagyu lineage would exist today. In this way Palpung is the seat of the Shangpa Kagyu as well as Marpa Kagyu, but it is also the second seat of the Karma Kagyu. It was organic, a natural thing. It was one of the most efficient and significant monastery congregations of Tibet. This does not mean it was the only one, but quite an important one. At the beginning of the interview you asked me about my responsibility and why I built Sherab Ling. As the twelfth Tai Situ it is my duty to uphold and cherish the great contributions of my predecessors. So for the past twenty-seven years I have done my best to build Sherab Ling. It can now be called a Seat, because it has threeyear retreat centres for monks and nuns, a Shedra (Institute of Buddhist Studies), a main monastery were there are ongoing rituals and practices performed and tradition is preserved there. It also has a school and quite a few branches not many but a few already so in this way it is a seat. The administration there is doing their best, but there is not too much to administer yet. For example, in your case, for Zhyisil Chokyi Ghatsal, we don t have to administer you. You administer yourself, you are independent and we do not have to do your administration. So right now, at this stage Sherab Ling is doing fine. However, it should become more efficient, more established and there is a lot to do. The past twentyseven years have been a lot of work and maybe after another twenty-seven years it will be a good, efficient seat of dharma. Thar Lam AUGUST 2005 51