Courtney Evans Oral History Interview RFK#5, 1/8/1971 Administrative Information Creator: Courtney Evans Interviewer: James A. Oesterle Date of Interview: January 8, 1971 Place of Interview: Washington, D.C. Length: 13 pages, 3 page addendum Biographical Note Evans, Assistant Director, Special Investigative Division, Federal Bureau of Investigation; Liaison to Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy [RFK], discusses FBI wiretapping procedure, RFK and Hoover during the December 66 controversy, and MLK wiretapping, among other issues. Access Open. Usage Restrictions According to the deed of gift signed August 2, 1973, copyright of these materials has been assigned to the United States Government. Users of these materials are advised to determine the copyright status of any document from which they wish to publish. Copyright The copyright law of the United States (Title 17, United States Code) governs the making of photocopies or other reproductions of copyrighted material. Under certain conditions specified in the law, libraries and archives are authorized to furnish a photocopy or other reproduction. One of these specified conditions is that the photocopy or reproduction is not to be used for any purpose other than private study, scholarship, or research. If a user makes a request for, or later uses, a photocopy or reproduction for purposes in excesses of fair use, that user may be liable for copyright infringement. This institution reserves the right to refuse to accept a copying order if, in its judgment, fulfillment of the order would involve violation of copyright law. The copyright law extends its protection to unpublished works from the moment of creation in a tangible form. Direct your questions concerning copyright to the reference staff. Transcript of Oral History Interview These electronic documents were created from transcripts available in the research room of the John F. Kennedy Library. The transcripts were scanned using optical character recognition and the resulting text files were proofread against the original transcripts. Some formatting changes were made. Page numbers are noted where they would have occurred at the bottoms of the pages of the original transcripts. If researchers have any concerns about accuracy, they are encouraged to visit the Library and consult the transcripts and the interview recordings.
Suggested Citation Courtney Evans, recorded interview by James A. Oesterle, January 8, 1971, (page number), Robert F. Kennedy Oral History Program of the John F. Kennedy Library.
Courtney Evans RFK #5 Table of Contents Page Topic 79 Hoover s reaction to Martin Luther King, Jr. [MLK] wiretapping 80 FBI wiretapping procedure 81 MLK telephone tap memo 82 Robert F. Kennedy [RFK] and J. Edgar Hoover during the December 1966 controversy 85 Surveillance records and policy 87 Wiretapping in organized crime investigations and other areas 88 Victor S. Navasky article 90 Hoover s possible successor
Fifth Oral History Interview with COURTNEY EVANS January 8, 1971 Washington, D.C. By James A. Oesterle For the Robert F. Kennedy Oral History Program of the John F. Kennedy Library Mr. Evans, in the last interview you referred to the Martin Luther King tap and said that sometime in October 1963 Robert Kennedy had a request before him. Paraphrasing you a bit, you said that he said that he was still uncertain about the advisability of utilizing this telephone tap but that he would approve it if I could assure him that the results would be evaluated and the advisability of continuing this tap was considered in another thirty days. And of course, within the thirtyday period President Kennedy [John F. Kennedy] was assassinated and this matter was not brought up again prior to the controversy that later developed between the director [J. Edgar Hoover] of the bureau [Federal Bureau of Investigation] and the attorney general. Do you recall both in this case and in the case of the former bureau agent that you mentioned the bureau wanted to put a tap or electronic surveillance on the agent the reaction of the director in regard to the comments of the attorney general either restricting the tap or suggesting that it was advisable? In the ordinary course of business, I handled matters with the director in writing, unless there was some emergency that required that he be contacted telephonically. It s my best recollection now that in both of the instances you mentioned the information that I received as a result of talking to the attorney general was transmitted through bureau channels to the director in memorandum form. I don t recall that there was any reaction to these memoranda from the director other
than the fact that, with reference to the former bureau agent, the technical surveillance was not conducted. I don t recall that there was any reaction at all, either in writing [-79-] or orally from the director, with regard to the other situation. In the case of an approval, what would the normal routine be or the procedure for the bureau to follow? The procedure ordinarily in connection with telephone taps, was that the interested division within the FBI and this was normally the Domestic Intelligence Division that was concerned with security problems would submit a recommendation up through channels to the director that a memorandum be forwarded to the attorney general requesting authorization for a particular telephone tap. When this action was approved in the director s office, one of the employees immediately assigned to the office would personally hand-carry this request over to the office of the attorney general. It was only in those very unusual situations where the interested division felt there was something that should be brought to the attorney general s attention that shouldn t go in writing for one reason or another that I would be requested to hand-carry this request over to the attorney general myself. As a consequence, with a large percentage practically all of the requests for telephone taps that went to the office of the attorney general, I wouldn t even know about the request being made unless I was informed by the attorney general who wanted to raise a question. Or if he had no question and approved it and I happened to be there, he would give me the approved request to return. Sometimes even his secretary would catch me walking out of the attorney general s office and say she had some approved requests, would I take them back over. That s how I found out about most of them. What would the process be once the FBI had received the approval? How would they then initiate whatever it was that they wanted to do? The approved request would go from the director down to the interested division. Knowing that they had the approval of the attorney general, the interested division would issue the necessary instructions to the particular field office involved as to how to proceed. So could things proceed quite rapidly, or would special budget appropriations have to be made that might involve further delay? Oh, no. Ordinarily, there d be no delay. As a matter of fact, these requests ordinarily would arise in the particular field office where the investigation was being conducted. That [-80-]
field office, feeling that a telephone tap would be productive in furthering the investigation, would actually initiate the recommendation. So that once it was approved, the field office would be in a position to move immediately. There was no financial considerations that I know of that would have delayed this in any way. This is just a part of the normal operating expense of the bureau. In the case of, for instance, the New York City telephone company proceeding, would they later bill the bureau for a service that they performed for the bureau, or would the bureau actually have an account with the telephone company? I don t have any exact knowledge of bookkeeping details. The only service that the telephone company would perform, of course, is the making available of a leased line, a dedicated telephone line, from point A to point B in New York City. And this is just a common, commercial occurrence. Dedicated telephone lines are leased by, I assume, thousands and thousands of concerns in New York City. So that it s hardly an unusual transaction. The other memo that you spoke of in regard to the Martin Luther King tap inferred that Robert Kennedy was anxious to have a telephone tap put on Martin Luther King. And you said, I don t think that this was true. If, indeed, I wrote that, I would like to consider that in light of the rest of the memoranda that had been written at that time. First of all, are you unsure about the authorship of the memoranda? Are you not sure that you did write it? I don t have any specific recollection now what was in the memorandum. As I think I ve pointed out before, I wrote hundreds of memoranda and, absent the record to refresh my recollection, I just can t say what was said. The point I was trying to make was that if in one instance or two or three instances I may have written something that stated explicitly or inferred that Robert Kennedy was anxious to do this, that statement alone is not true and that the statement has to be read in light of everything that was written at about that period of time with regard to the Martin Luther King investigation. I just don t think that you can take one sentence out of context or that you can take one memorandum out of context and say that this represents the whole picture. I probably should also point out that many, many of these memoranda that I wrote were written under very tight time pressures and that as a consequence the language was not frequently considered in a thoughtful and detailed manner, and there was never time for editing of material that was prepared. So the document has to be considered in that light too. It wasn t a studied effort to record perhaps the entire story. [-81-] It was never a thoroughly edited manuscript where every word was weighed as to its possible meaning.
It s my understanding that Robert Kennedy had signed a blind memo that later became the problem and that this was the August 17, 1961, memorandum which was used by the director to defend his position. Do you possibly recall that this was the case, or was this the case many times that there were blind memos? In other words, he would sign his name to a memo and later the text would be typed in? Oh, no. No. Those memos that he signed, the blind memos he signed a separate one with regard to every telephone tap that he approved. These were prepared ahead of time. Generally, they followed a very stereotyped form. The same language, in essence, had been used for years, as I recall it, to get approval. The August 17 memo on the leased lines from the telephone company in New York followed the same general pattern in that it was a blind memorandum and sought approval and it was signed. And there s no question that the language here, I think, is the same as he signed. I don t believe there s been any change in language or the memo s been altered in any way. Maybe I don t understand the significance of the blind memo. Would a blind memo be a blank sheet of paper with his signature at the bottom and then attached to it a draft of what would later be added? No, nothing would be added afterwards. A blind memorandum was just not addressed to anybody. My best recollection is that it was on stationary, FBI stationary, but rather than being addressed to the attorney general or anybody else, it was simply a request for authorization to institute, to install a telephone tap. There was a place at the bottom and it was already typed in Approved and a blank line for the attorney general to approve it. It was just a form of communication that had grown up over the years. The memos that I m talking about where they may not be a considered use of language and where they were prepared under great time pressures are intra-bureau memoranda that were informative in nature. In general, how much back and forth had there been between the attorney general and the director before the whole controversy hit the papers in December 66? You mean contacts and communications back and forth with regard to the wiretap controversy? I really don t have any [-82-] personal knowledge as to how much contact there may have been. The controversy surfaced in December 1966. I had left the bureau at the end of December of 1964. I d had very limited contact with Robert Kennedy when he was a senator. I do know that there was some indication, Robert Kennedy had some indication that this controversy
was brewing, because it was in that period of time that he asked me for this letter to which we ve referred. How do you think he got this impression that this was about to happen? Oh, I think that there was a great deal of talk on the Hill [Capitol Hill] about it, both by members of Congress and by staff people and by newspaper reporters working there. I know that Kennedy was under the definite impression that this issue was going to surface. He didn t know when, but it was going to have to come out into the open. I just assume that these were his sources. But when Look at the way it did surface ultimately, on the basis of requests from a member of Congress formally directed to the director of the FBI for information about it. Now, this is not an isolated situation that just arose. That kind of thing takes a good deal of development. The way these stories are broken, a congressman has to have detailed information before he asks the question. I would speculate that perhaps there are other members of Congress who were approached about asking the kind of questions that were ultimately asked by this particular congressman. I think there was some talking on the Hill about this on the part of FBI representatives. At least, that s been reported to me. I was personally asked by a ranking FBI official I think it was early in 1966 about whether or not Kennedy, in fact, did have a letter from me. And I, as I remember, told him at the time that this was really my business and Robert Kennedy s business, he shouldn t make any assumptions one way or the other; he shouldn t put words into my mouth as to what the facts were with regard to a letter or anything else because I was well aware of a tendency that existed in the FBI at times to submit memoranda that contained information which people thought the director wanted to receive. Its relationship to the whole story in many instances was sometimes quite distorted. For these reasons, I m just convinced in my own mind that there was a lot of activity. I had also heard the stories of the FBI trying to interest certain members of Congress in material reportedly obtained about [-83-] Martin Luther King. I never saw the documents. Nobody who would be in a position to know or to have seen the documents ever talked to me about it. But the story was around the Hill, and there was some speculation in the press from time to time that such documents might exist. But I don t know that the documents themselves have ever been disclosed. Who has them, where they are, I don t have the faintest idea. Yet, it s highly extraordinary to think of some of these selected memoranda being released to the press and published. And I wonder in my own mind if the attorney general really felt at that time that the
director of the bureau would go that far. One would think that this is the kind of thing that even if it went so far as to be turned over to a congressional committee, that it would still not be released to the press. I suppose that maybe Robert Kennedy felt that it would be confined and not become public, although once things are supplied to Congress, unless they re very, very sensitive, there s a tendency that it becomes a matter of public knowledge. David Kraslow wrote in an article that appeared in the Los Angeles Times on December 11, 1966, that both the director and the attorney general and their associates had been arguing their conflicting points of view for months in private discussions with reporters and others. I wonder, did this really go on for months? I would assume that it did. I mean prior to. December 66? Uh-huh. Well, I would assume it went on for a period of months, yes. I don t know. I had no part of it, but I just assume that this is true. He also says that it was understood that the question of whether Robert Kennedy had approved bugging of Black [Fred B. Black, Jr.], Baker [Robert G. Baker] and others came up in a meeting that LBJ [Lyndon B. Johnson] had at the White House with the director and Katzenbach [Nicholas deb. Katzenbach] in 65. Did you hear anything at all about that? [-84-] No, I didn t know anything about that other than I did read the Kraslow article at the time. Oh, you do recall the article? He says in that article he mentions your name too saying that, It was evident from Courtney Evans letter that Robert Kennedy had been anticipating a broadside from Hoover for a long time. This is what you referred to before, but it wasn t necessarily what one might call a long time. It was a period of a month or two from the time that he asked you to write the memoranda?
Well, it was a period of a few months. [Interruption] With regard to how long this negotiation, the period of negotiation to use that term very loosely between the FBI and the Kennedy factions went on, I d only point out as a matter of evidence that my letter to Kennedy was dated February of 1966 and that this ultimate disclosure in the Hoover letter to Congressman Gross [H.R. Gross] was in December of 66. So there s a period of at least ten months and probably a little more that. At least during this period of time perhaps as much as a year Robert Kennedy was concerned that there was going to be a surfacing of allegations in this regard. Were his records perhaps not as complete as they might have been in terms of checking back over the various memorandum that had been written so that he could retrace the events? You re talking about Robert Kennedy s records. Uh-huh. At this time he was a senator. I assume that he still had access to his personal papers prepared during the period of the time that he was attorney general. They must have been very voluminous. He no longer had the kind of staff assistance that he had when he was attorney general to dig things out, so he may not have had ready access to everything. In addition, the material that he would have had in his files were the formal memoranda requesting authorization for telephone taps. Much of the data, however, that came over from the FBI that might even have been relevant to issues here undoubtedly remained in the files of the Department of Justice proper rather than in the files, the personal papers, of the attorney general. Later on, perhaps in 66, 67, it s my impression that a great deal was done within the office of the attorney general with regard to wiretaps and microphone surveillances, and that there was an intensive review of all the material that was in the files of the Department of Justice proper to develop facts concerning how policy [-85-] in this regard moved along in this period of time and what various attorneys general over the years had done. I think this was all done as background for the development of current policy and probably in connection with the department s position on the omnibus crime bill in 1968. This was done under Katzenbach? Yes, this would be Katzenbach and I assume even by Mr. Clark [Ramsey Clark].
been? Could this also have been, on the part of Katzenbach, in part to assist Robert Kennedy, at least Robert Kennedy s view, in regard to the confusion of approval and when this had started and what the form had Well, it could have been, but I think it was primarily to enable the then attorney general to carry out his responsibilities. Remember that the Black case and some other cases were then going to the Supreme Court. And the attorney general was called upon to make a very definite statement to the Supreme Court with regard to these matters. I think it was primarily for the purpose of enabling the attorney general to respond to the demand of the Supreme Court and to prepare a policy base for the omnibus crime bill that this research was done. I imagine that Jack Miller [Herbert J. Miller, Jr.] was quite involved in the whole question of electronic surveillance in regard to some of the cases that were mentioned, the Baker case and others. Well, remember that these issues came up in the Baker case and in other cases not because any technical surveillance or telephone taps had been used in the investigation of those particular cases, but rather because during the course of some maintenance of technical surveillance in other cases, be they organized crime or be they internal security, by chance there was an interception of a communication involving Baker or one of the other people. So I m not at all sure that I can agree with you that Miller was very well informed in this area. He was concerned with By the way, I meant that as a question and not as a statement. I don t think that he was too well informed. One of the letters that was released by the FBI in December 1966 to show knowledge on the part of Robert Kennedy that the bureau [-86-] was using microphone surveillances was Miller s letter to I think it was Senator Ervin [Sam J. Ervin, Jr.], advising him as to the number of telephone taps and microphone surveillances that were being used at the time of the letter. Miller got that information from the FBI, I m sure. He wouldn t have had any way of getting it himself. Beyond that, I m not certain that Miller knew very much at all about what was going on. He certainly had no part in approving telephone taps. This was strictly a prerogative of the attorney general. Of course, he could have requested that a tap be instigated and asked the attorney general to give approval so that the FBI could conduct such an operation.
In my whole history in the FBI I have never heard of that being done by any assistant attorney general in charge of the Criminal Division. And I just doubt seriously that there would have been any from the assistant attorney general in charge of the Internal Security Division. I just don t think that was the normal practice. These things were initiated by the FBI. By the way, did some of the techniques that were used in internal security matters become a matter of course in organized crime work? You mentioned something about this, that the attorney general thought that maybe some of these various techniques and all would be useful. Yes, I think there was some adoption of techniques used in the investigation of espionage cases in the organized crime area. The two types of situations are very comparable in that you have well financed groups interested in infiltrating another organization, be it government or business. In espionage, it s primarily the federal government. Foreign nations would be interested in infiltrating governments so they could know about major policy decisions that were of a secret nature, of military preparations, et cetera. In organized crime, the infiltration is for the purpose of insuring protection to the illegal activities of organized crime, and these primarily center in local units of government. But the techniques of the infiltration are somewhat similar, and as a consequence, the techniques used to counter that infiltration could be similar. When I was involved in the supervision of organized crime matters, I encouraged the use of espionage investigation type techniques. The thing that is similar and, I think, important is the development of intelligence type information as contrasted to evidence for a prosecution in a given case. The intelligence type information that is developed will enable a government to take administrative action to thwart the activities of the intended infiltrators. It s common [-87-] practice in the security field, and I thought that it should also be a common practice in organized crime. At least, this is what we were trying to do. And it was in this regard, of course, that you try to utilize every possible source of information to develop intelligence that could be used in this way. You re not concerned as to whether or not the evidence is the type that can be introduced in court. You re not concerned with the repercussions of crossexamination that would perhaps disclose techniques and other informants that you didn t want disclosed because they were continuing to produce information for you, and if the infiltrators knew you had a counteragent within their ranks, they would immediately take steps to close off the productivity of this counteragent. Actually, it was through this intelligence type investigation that the first really specific details as to the operation of organized crime groups within the United States were amplified to a point that the picture began to be very clear as to how they operated and what they were doing.
Were any of these techniques ever used to uncover lobbying on the part of foreign governments or businesses? Oh, I think here we re getting into a pretty highly classified area. It would be well to look at some of the leads that resulted from the Baker case. I think there s a good lead there into this area which might be illustrative of what was going on. Very well. [Interruption] To the best of your knowledge, does the Navasky [Victor S. Navasky] article that appeared in Atlantic magazine entitled The Government and Martin Luther King do justice to the various aspects of the entire controversy that developed? Well, let me say first of all that I never talked to Mr. Navasky in my life and that I am not the veteran FBI agent that is said in the article to have furnished him information. Who this veteran agent is, I don t know. On the whole, I m inclined to think that Mr. Navasky has pretty well gotten the essential facts about the situation. The article is obviously a little bit more pro-kennedy than it is pro-j. Edgar Hoover. It would seem to me that much of the article concerns matters about which I have little, if any, personal knowledge, insofar as the article relates to matters within the civil rights area. It would seem to me that much of the information in this regard that is contained in the article could best be evaluated by some individual who was a highly ranking official in the Civil Rights Division of the department during this early 1960 period, that is during the time that Robert Kennedy was attorney general. I just have the feeling that Mr. Navasky didn t get this information from FBI sources, and it would seem to me that either [-88-] directly or indirectly he has developed some information that must have originated within the Civil Rights Division itself. Despite the fact that Mr. Navasky says that the article will serve a purpose only if it tends to smoke me out along with a couple of other people, I don t think there s anything more that I could add other than the information that I ve given during the course of these interviews for the Kennedy Library. I just feel that this is the proper avenue for me to furnish what information I can and hope that this can be evaluated in light of much more extensive written material which history may subsequently develop. On page 46 of the Navasky article, at the bottom of the page, on the right hand side, he refers to the Evans memorandum not released at this writing. Now, I guess I have not seen this memorandum. Do you recall this one in particular at all? Does he identify the memorandum? [The article] It s here.
This is the June 1963 memorandum in which I reported a conversation I had had with the attorney general with regard to his concern about reports that Doctor King was a student of Marxism and was allegedly associating with a New York attorney with known Communist connections, and if it was technically feasible to use electronic devices to prove or disprove these allegations. The text of this memorandum, to the best of my knowledge, has never been released publicly, which raises in my mind some questions as to what else there is in the memorandum. As I ve said before, I don t have access to this material. I don t recall what was in the memoranda. But this and similar instances are the basis for my statement that you have to judge what is in one memorandum by putting it in context with a series of memoranda. In this particular instance, perhaps the unreleased portion of the memorandum is also very significant. But I just don t recall what was in the memorandum, and I ve thought a good deal about it since December 1966. From the point of view of conjecture, would you go along with Navasky s understanding that the Kennedy version conflicts with the Hoover version in two essentials: one, that Kennedyites say that the tap was Hoover s idea and installed at his urging and, two, they deny that Kennedy ever entertained doubts about Doctor King s loyalty? It s my opinion that the first conclusion here is probably, is undoubtedly accurate, considering everything that happened [-89-] in the entire situation. With regard to whether or not Kennedy ever had any doubts as to Doctor Martin Luther King s loyalty, I don t know that I really have enough knowledge to even speculate here. But going beyond speculating and just guessing, it s my guess that Mr. Kennedy never did have any doubts about his loyalty. This is a typical situation wherein subversive elements infiltrate legitimate organizations or try to. And I wouldn t say that Robert Kennedy felt that everybody that was in Doctor King s organization or everybody that was associated with him was completely loyal, but I think it s probably a fair statement and my guess that Mr. Kennedy never did have any doubts about Doctor King s loyalty personally. [Interruption] I don t recall the name of the author, but the title of the book was The Crime War, and in the book the author says that DeLoach [Cartha Dekle DeLoach] considered himself to be the heir apparent to J. Edgar Hoover. In contrast to this book, in the de Toledano [Ralph de Toledano] book on page 362, the author says that Courtney Evans would have succeeded Hoover as director had RFK won out. And this was mentioned in reference to the controversy over approval by the attorney general of wiretaps. This is very speculative, of course, but what is your reaction to this?
Oh, I think you ve hit the nail on the head with the word speculative. I think they re both very highly speculative conjectures. Recognize that there s a time differential here. And I think the speculation with regard to my possible appointment was much earlier than DeLoach s. He came to greater prominence in the FBI after I left, and I think that the speculations as to his being an apparent heir were after I left. I think I could say in all frankness, and should say, so that whatever I ve indicated during the course of these interviews can be properly evaluated, that I have felt that if the circumstances worked out and the directorship of the FBI became vacant that I could count on support from Robert Kennedy to be appointed to the position. I recognized all along, however, that the circumstances had to be exactly right for this to happen and that if there was a compelling situation that required the naming of somebody who had a broader national reputation than I did, perhaps somebody with a different background, somebody such as a fairly prominent federal judge, that if those circumstances came along, then Robert Kennedy s first loyalty and rightfully so was to his brother and to the administration. And I wouldn t have been at all lacking in understanding if he had recommended the president appoint someone else. But I do have a very had a very close relationship with him. I felt we were good official friends, as we ve talked about. My record was such that I felt in my own mind the promotion was not inconceivable. Incidentally, throughout Robert Kennedy s lifetime, he never mentioned this to me once. He [-90-] may have talked to other people about it, I don t know, but he certainly never talked with me about it. The fact is, he never said anything to me about a change in the leadership in the FBI. But in the period of 1963, there was a good deal of gossip around Washington that following the 64 elections, assuming President Kennedy were reelected and with Mr. Hoover reaching the mandatory retirement age on January 1, 1965 and this provision of law can be waived only by the president that with all of these things happening, J. Edgar Hoover would be allowed to retire and that a new director to the FBI would be named. These rumors, of course, were known to the director, and I got the very distinct impression that he was very resentful that any consideration at all would be given to replacing him. Now, if as time develops and more information concerning anything that I ve said becomes public or greater details are available even if entirely new matters arise that we haven t been able to recall during these interviews then, by all means I would think it most proper that we get together again and try to explore these new avenues and develop the old ones further if this is indicated. It would be most appropriate, and we ought to do it. Very worthwhile. I appreciate your time very much. My pleasure. [-91-]
Courtney Evans Oral History Transcript RFK #5 Name List B Baker, Robert G. 84,88 Black, Fred B., Jr. 84,86 C Clark, Ramsey 86 D de Toledano, Ralph 90 DeLoach, Cartha Dekle 90 E Ervin, Sam J., Jr. 87 G Gross, Harold Royce 85 H Hoover, J. Edgar 79,85,88-91 J Johnson, Lyndon B. 84 K Katzenbach, Nicholas deb. 84,86 Kennedy, John F. 79,89,91 Kennedy, Robert F. 79,81-86,88-90 King, Martin Luther, Jr. 79,81,84,88-90 Kraslow, David 84,85 M Miller, Herbert J., Jr. 86,87 N Navasky, Victor S. 88,89