Interview number A-0272 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill. Earle Morris Interview Subject: The Honorable Earle Morris Interviewer: Jack Bass February 21, 1974 Location: unknown Topics: South Carolina Lt. Gov. Earle Morris reflects on the recent history of the Democratic Party, the potential of Gov. James F. Byrnes to have smoothed the South's move toward integration, Morris' hopes to win a crowded Democratic gubernatorial campaign, and his views on state government. Transcriber: Larry Grubbs, Modern Political Collections, The South Caroliniana Library, The University of South Carolina, February 1999 This interview is held by The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. A copy of the tape was provided to the Modern Political Collections Division of the University of South Carolina's South Caroliniana Library for transcription.
Jack Bass Interview ofearle Morris, p. 2 [Begin Tape 1, One Side only] Bass: You were state Democratic Chairman at a time of probably the first really serious Republican challenge in this state, on a statewide basis. How did the Democrats in South Carolina develop the strong coalition they have with blacks? Morris: I think this goes back to the history of the Democratic and Republican parties in South Carolina. Up until Judge Waties Waring, by federal order, declared unconstitutional, illegal, the white Democratic primary, the only party in which blacks could participate was the Republican Party. There were a few whites and a few blacks, just a handful. Of course, the Democratic Party, as you know, was white. Then they repealed all the laws on the books. This was during the Olin Johnston administration. They said, "It's a private club, and you've got to sign up to be a member and to vote in the nominating process." They had this club-roll business. Of course, that was abolished. Well, obviously, when the Democratic Party began to mature, and it wasn't done accept with reluctance... And when Strom Thurmond took over the state Republican Party, and it became the all white entity, the blacks really had nowhere to go, and weren't welcomed and encouraged anywhere, except in the Democratic Party. It was just a natural egression for them to make. And, to this day, even though there have been a few voices calling for the state Republican Party to be a more open one, they have been in the minority. So, it's still basically all white. The Democratic Party, and I think this really came about in and around 1966 to the present, has been more and more open to blacks. It's encouraged their participation. They run and have been elected to office. I think that most of them are going to stay in a party in which they feel welcome, and in which they have a meaningful role. Bass: What kind of strategy was discussed in '66 to make blacks welcome Democratic Party? Some of the southern states, they became a third party? Morris: None. We just realized that this is the way it is, and there's no color to a ballot, or no racial distinction, I should say. We needed all the help we could get. I don't know that there was any strategy at all. Bass: When you were party chairman, did you have any meetings, say, with black groups or groups of blacks who were considered leaders? Morris: Not in a manner other than we met with any other group. We never had what you might refer to as a black strategy for the Democratic Party in the state. Of course, the Voting Rights Act of 1965, whose initial reason for being had justification to see that there was not any effort, overt and covert, to prevent blacks from registering to vote. This had taken place. But, the Voting Rights Act did encourage more and more blacks to register, and I think that was meaningful. I think it was helpful, because they registered at the time that our party was becoming more open. We got the label by Harry Dent and company of being the black party. Now, he wishes they had them, the Republicans, but, they're not going to get them. They've got a lot of repenting to do, in my opinion, for the indignities that they visited upon blacks, just as the Democratic Party had to do the same thing. Bass: Back in the '64 campaign, the presidential election, some people in top levels of the Democratic Party were still taking the position in public utterances and in rhetoric that, in effect,
Jack Bass Interview ofearle Morris, p. 3 were virtually trying to out-segregate the Republicans. You recall that period? Morris: I recall that. Bass: That discontinued after '64, essentially. Am I correct? Morris: That's correct. Bass: Okay. Why? Morris: Just the reasons I've said. You know, you make your last stand. They made their last stand. Sometimes, you've got to mature and realize that you can't out-segregate a segregationist. Bass: Was there a realization that the future of the Democratic Party lay with bringing the blacks in as part of a coalition? Morris: Yes. Well, not so much a coalition, but just as a participant. You can't say that a third of the population of this state didn't have a right to be involved. I hope they will be to a greater extent in the future, and I think that they will be. The pattern of registration is not reflective of the population. We have about one-third non-white, two-thirds white. Registration, so far, is about onefourth non-white, and the rest white. So, they now aren't registered to the proportion of their population in the state, so I think it's going to be an even greater participation by them. I hope so. But, see, we had to run in that '66 race, with Lyndon Johnson, highly unpopular, mostly because he had proposed the Civil Rights Act in '64, and the Voting Rights Act of 1965, which came, of course, after the '64 campaign, '66 mid-term election, he was about as despised statewide as any president I can remember since Harry Truman, because of the same issue. So, we still had to run with him. Goldwater, of course, had been the darling of the Southern Republicans, because he voted against the '64 Civil Rights Act, the only one he ever voted against. Why he did it, I don't know. But, Goldwater was the Republican's McGovern in reverse, but, in this state, he is still one of the more popular national Republicans. I know the first confrontation that I had with Harry Dent, the Republican Chairman, I was Democratic Chairman, was down at the State College in Orangeburg. They asked the two of us to come down. We rode down together, in my car. Dave Broder was along, and Bill Mahoney, and who else, someone else who has gone national. That's where we began the '66 campaign. It was as racist a campaign as I ever remember being in. To a lesser degree, this seems to be a paramount issue in the [Albert] Watson-[John] West race [1970 gubernatorial campaign], it was still that. I don't believe it will be this time, because if [retired General William] Westmoreland runs, he, I am told, has been meeting with blacks. He's going to talk about the promotions he gave to blacks when he was in the Army in Vietnam. [Democratic candidate William Jennings] Bryan [Dorn], of course, has come a long way from the proposal he made after Judge Waring invalidated the white primary. He offered a resolution to impeach Judge Waring. So, he's moderated a lot, in the last year or two anyway, leading up to this election. You certainly can't accuse me of never having been an equal opportunity official, twenty years ago, not just lately. I'm going to point that out to a lot of people that maybe don't know comparative records. What Maurice [Bessinger] is going to do, I don't know. But, his posture has been one of the segregationist image. Whether or not he told you he's still going to do that, I don't know. There's still some votes in it, but, not enough to be winning in this state anymore. So, I look for this election to be a less racially overtoned one than we have had in a long time. I
Jack Bass Interview ofearle Morris, p. 4 could be wrong. But, I think we're over the hump in this state, in that issue. Bass: How do you assess the work of the Gressette Committee? This book is going to be published in 76. Morris: Well, you know, Senator [Marion] Gressette is a man of extreme brilliance. He, of course, was reflecting what many people in this state, and many leaders, felt should be done. I was not a leader at that time. I was just on the sidelines. He did what the legislature and the governors asked him to do. He merely carried out the authorization and the direction of the General Assembly of this state, and its governors. But, the net result, perhaps was to buy some time, and that had its positive aspects. Because, in buying time, and in losing one round after another, after another, we had an opportunity to begin to lay the groundwork for what was inevitable, integration. With a few exceptions, it's been done here with order. While in retrospect, I would never say that the work of the Committee was futile, except that they didn't have the law and the Constitution on their side. But, in buying time, perhaps in legal delay, we were spared some more incidents of violence that might have occurred at an earlier time, closer to 1954. Bass: That's an evaluation based on hindsight, am I correct? Morris: Exactly. That's based on hindsight. Bass: At the time all of this was occurring, it was not being conceived of in those terms, that we're doing this to buy time, time in order to prepare ourselves for the inevitable. Morris: That was not ever talked about or discussed publicly. I always had doubts about the wisdom of what was trying to be done. I know I was one of the few members of this legislature who did not agree with Governor [James F.] Byrnes when he proposed amending the Constitution of 1895,1 forget what article, to remove that guarantee of a free public school education for every child between ages six and sixteen. Bass: Did you vote against it? Morris: Yes, I did, when I was in the House. One of the few. That was in 1952,1 believe. Bass: Let me ask you this question about Governor Byrnes, because you were in politics then, and have been ever since. The question had been raised in an interview with someone we talked to, evaluating him, as to whether or not he, because of his prestige in the whole region at that time when he was Governor, if he, in 1954, after the Court had acted, had taken a role of leadership, south-wide, to say, "This is the law of the land, and we must move to meet it and devise a means that can do what we must do with the least amount of disruption and turmoil," that he was in a position to have possibly had success in that, considering the climate of the times, the fact that, immediately after the decision, there was not this great outcry. It was a period of confusion for about six or eight months before opposition really solidified. Morris: I think that he had a unique opportunity as very few southerners did at that time to assume that role. But, he didn't. I remember in his inaugural address, he was talking about the need for funds, that we had to provide our schools equal but separate -they had always been separate, but
Jack Bass Interview ofearle Morris, p. 5 never equal - and he said it's because it's right. It sounded good, but the efforts to perpetuate a dual system in the public schools was doomed in the early '50's. I saw it, but you don't make many friends by telling them what the inevitable result is going to be. I might have said that I would prefer that we maintain the school system as it is, provided you make them equal and separate. But preference, and what the Constitution says, what the law was going to demand, are altogether different. But, he didn't do this. I suppose that here was an area of leadership that was begging for a political statesman to appear and say, "Well, I'll do it." But, no political leaders of consequence did. So, you had a few other people who assumed that role, to their own critical disadvantage, like in the media, the Hodding Carters, people like that. Bass: Thinking back to that time, and considering his background, having served on the Supreme Court, having had a major national role, and not having the more narrow perspective of people who had not been out of the state, this state or other states... This is an opinion question. But, knowing the man at least to the extent that you did, do you think that he understood then the inevitability of what was to happen after the decision was handed down, or do you think he genuinely believed it could somehow be avoided, or only delayed? Morris: Jack, I never talked with him about it. I was really never that close to Governor Byrnes. I voted against the sales tax, as a matter of fact, because I thought while we needed to have a more adequate source of funding for public education, the purpose of it, in effect, was to perpetuate the dual system of public education. I didn't know, but I just saw that with the direction of recognition of rights of people, that this was going to have to go. I didn't vote for the sales tax. I was criticized by many who were teachers, educators, because there was a raise in it for them. But, see, we built all those buildings, many of whom have been abandoned, closed, or weren't utilized. Perhaps we needed the buildings, but the reasoning behind it didn't sell me. I think it's a good thing we've got the sales tax now, because it's a major source of funding for our public education systems. But, back then, the reasoning was wrong, even though the source of financing and funding could be justified. But, I never talked to Governor Byrnes about the decision and about the effect that it might have. You see, he went out in '55, and George Bell [Timmerman] was elected. Now, George Bell, you know, was a confrontation, stand in the doorway, kind of governor. I believe that's what he would have done. We had no confrontation. Then, when Fritz [Hollings] came along, that's when we began to get more moderate in our governmental posture. When Fritz went out, you know, he said, we are running out of courts. It may not be the Supreme Court, it may not be the law of the land, but, it's a court of the land. Donald Russell came in. That's just before the first court ordered admission of a black to any educational program in this state, Harvey Gantt. There were still those then, I guess that had to be what, in '63, there were still those that were saying, "We'll close the schools." I know we had a public meeting of our delegation. We have one every year. This was in Liberty. Clemson is up in that part of the world. And, I was asked, "Will Clemson College close rather than admit blacks?" I think I was the first official to say publicly and openly, even though many knew it, who were working behind the scenes, I said, "Clemson won't close, nor will any other public school close, when court ordered integration is mandated." And, none did close. But, up until '63, there were still those, in leadership positions, that thought somehow the tides going to be turned back, turn back the clock. So, in looking back, I guess I was perhaps a little more liberal than I might have been given credit for. Bass: Getting back to Byrnes, do you think his prestige and influence was such that, at that time,
Jack Bass Interview ofearle Morris, p. 6 he could have influenced the South wide attitude? Morris: Yes, I really do. I think he, unlike any other person, could have done it. I don't believe that there was any other governor of the national stature and public image and respect that he had, that could have done it. But, we had the defiant types, and most of those in deep South states. That was not so true in South Carolina. We haven't had any governor since Thurmond, back in '48, when he went on that States Rights thing [third party candidacy for President], shouting in South Carolina, you know, open defiance of the courts and the Congress. No governor. There were some that might have given some inference, but it was low key. We've been blessed in that regard. But, Byrnes could have done it. I don't know if it ever occurred to him, if he was ever encouraged to take such a role. Perhaps some of his closer intimates, someone like Buddy Prioleau, his nephew, could give you a better answer on that than I could. Many of his intimates are deceased. There are just a few on the scene now that were close to him when he was governor. [Tape stops, then resumes] Bass: Do you think he definitely was in a position to do it? Morris: I don't know if he ever thought about it or if he gave any consideration toward it. Because, he was in his last year, '54 to '55. I don't remember which was the year we took out that free school guarantee. It was either '52 or '4, and you would have to look at the records on that. But, Pickens County did not vote to remove it. Florence County did not. These two I remember as being among either two or the few counties that voted to keep it in. The reason I was concerned, and I said this when I was running for the Senate, my first term in Pickens County back in '54, how are the masses of the people going to get a free public school education if they aren't willing to require it, or guarantee it, in your basic governmental document? I didn't vote for it because it was just another ploy to evade the law, which didn't work. It's still not back in, even though we still have the public school system. But, with the wrong kind of leadership, the public school system could be destroyed. Bass: Didn't it get back in? Morris: No, it's not back in. Bass: Are you sure? [Tape stops, then resumes] Bass:... from '55 to 73. Morris: I believe '54 is when it came out, and ratified in '55. Bass: So, it was really proposed by Byrnes?
Jack Bass Interview ofearle Morris, p. 7 Morris: Yes, that was one of his proposals, and, I believe, the Gressette Committee. I'm a little vague on some of my recollections. I didn't vote to take it out, and I'm as proud of that vote as any I've ever made. There were a few of us brave souls. [Laughter] Bass: A year or so ago, you were making noises about [switching to] the Republican Party. Were you serious at the time? Morris: No. Bass: Then why were you making it? Morris: Well, I had to make something, some noise, to get some attention, and I did. I knew what I was doing. I didn't plan it all, but, when I mentioned the so-called conspiracy, it's very obvious that it existed. They called my hand, and I raised them, and I called them. There was a time when I almost abandoned the idea of running, but, I was not going to let just a few, and after this election I'll tell you who, and I think you know, because I read it in your column. You've named the right names. Bass: Who did I name in my column? I don't remember. Morris: You'll have to read your column. [Laughter] That some wanted to put me aside. And, first I got hurt, then I got mad. Then I said, "Well, I'm going to fight." Which I'm going to. I'm still having to do it. I have no assurance I'm going to win. Right now, I am ahead. But, it's a long time from now until November, and whenever the primary is going to be. But, I have been able to establish a posture and a stance of independence. Anybody else, they might want to say, "Well, you're on his coattails, you're the handpicked candidate, or you're the heir apparent, you're the successor and everything is laid out for you." I didn't want that image, and I sure don't have it. I generated a lot of support from people. They say, "Earle, we don't like what they are trying to do to you. They're giving you a dirty deal. You hang in there." So, that was the reaction I got from a lot of places. And, some of those that might have been conspirators seem to be coming back. We'd be glad to have them. But, I didn't beg them. I'm not going to beg anybody. Bass: What are going to be the major issues in South Carolina in the next four years? Morris: More of the same. I don't see much in the way of change. I believe that open government is going to be more a requirement. When I say open government, our state government is getting too big. It needs to be reduced in size, and needs to be increased in performance and productivity, serving the people that pay the bills, elimination of so much red tape, rules, and regulations, bureaus, offices, and agencies. That may be a monumental task, but it's achievable. Bass: You're talking in terms of consolidation? Morris: Consolidation. Bass: Reorganization? Reduction in terms of numbers of employees, these kinds of things. We're going to
Jack Bass Interview ofearle Morris, p. 8 have to get around to land use policies, or a policy in the state, in the coastal area. This is tough, but we have to bite the bullet and get with it, at least propose it and let the people know what your choice is, preservation of a lot of the good things we've done, or just Northeastern urban blight come South, if that's what you want. I think that the educational effort in this state has got to be increased. We haven't made much progress, in terms of the last fifty years. There is a recent book called, I believe, Dynamism ofeducation. Wil Lou Gray told me about it. Our ranking today isn't much better than it was fifty years ago. So, while we certainly have made a lot of progress, other states are, too. We don't have as adequate a public school system as we need, and until we get a betterment, I'm not talking just about funding, but that has a lot to do with it, we're still are going to have that group out there, we still have too many functional illiterates, too many people that are economic drags on the state. Not of their own fault, it's our fault. They need to be retrieved and retreaded. Everybody is for education, and I am too, but I think that, in my own mind, I'd like for the next four years to be even more successful and productive one in terms of government, at least state government, being an equal opportunity one. I'm not talking in terms of minorities, racially, but also in terms of women. I'm for equal rights, whether or not they ratify that amendment [the Equal Rights Amendment] is beside the point. But, we need to set our own house in order. There is blatant discrimination in terms of women in top jobs. A recent survey indicated 62% of the people in state government, in the five to ten thousand [dollar] level are females. From ten to twenty, the female percentage diminishes. The higher you go in the wage classification scale, for instance, the twenty to thirty thousand figure, these are just approximate, I don't remember the exact ones, I believe there are two in the twenty to thirty thousand bracket. Bass: Two percent, or two women? Morris: Two women out of about two hundred males. There are laws and policies in this state that discriminate against women in regard to credit, availability of credit and insurance, availability of property rights, job rights, and so forth. Whether they ratify that amendment or not, there is a lot we can do here. I think that we have made meaningful progress, with George Hamilton and the Commission on Human Affairs. I don't think that Governor [John] West has pursued a tokenistic policy. And, while he has not achieved the elimination of hunger, poverty, and poor health, and adequate education, I think that he has worked awfully hard in these directions, which I call the area of human ecology, human environment, personal conservation, development. You can spell this out in a lot of ways, and I would like... [Interview Concludes]