The Axe Files - Ep. 9: Jorge Ramos

The Axe Files - Ep. 9: Jorge Ramos Released Nov. 2, 2015 [00:00:09] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And now, from the University of Chicago-Institute of Politics, "The Axe Files" with your host David Axelrod. DAVID AXELROD, "THE AXE FILES" HOST: Jorge Ramos is a unique figure in American media today. He came here as an immigrant from Mexico in the early '80s, by the mid-'80s he was anchorman for Univision. And over the next decades became a singular force. Now at the age of 57, he splits his time between Univision and Fusion, a new network that's aimed at millennials. And it's clear that he's become quite a force among millennials, because he came to the Institute of Politics the other night and sold out an auditorium in a matter of minutes and electrified the audience. We also had a great conversation right here. Jorge Ramos, the Walter Cronkite of Hispanics. How -- are you sick of hearing that? That seems like almost a cliche by now. In fact, I heard they are starting to call Walter Cronkite or Jorge Ramos of Anglo media. JORGE RAMOS, JOURNALIST: Well, I'm 57. So, I'm feeling the age. And, you know, next year is going be my 30th year as an anchorman for Univision in news in Spanish. I started when I was 28. And I never expected that I was going to be that long doing exactly the same thing. I -- at one point remember the salary men in Japan. That they used to work in the same company for all their lives. I'm feeling exactly the same weight since I started working the United States since been with Univision. Now, I'm working also with Fusion which is an ABC and Univision partnership. But at the end I -- what I'm happy is that people still believe what I say. They still trust you. And if you're a journalist and people don't believe what you say. It really doesn't matter. And what's also funny is that every four years they remember us. In other words, they remember that Latino community exists, simply because they need the Hispanic vote. I call it the Christopher Columbus Syndrome. Every four years they rediscover us. And then, they forget about us. So, it is one of those years. So, I'm happy just to be here. AXELROD: Your career began back in Mexico City where you were raised. I want to talk a little bit about that, because I want to talk about how Jorge Ramos becomes Jorge Ramos. So, talk a little bit about your upbringing. And then, I want talk about how you wound up here and the break you had with your first television station, because that's such an interesting story. RAMOS: I grew up in Mexico City. I have three brothers and a sister. And the timing which I was growing up in Mexico was kind of difficult. My father was very authoritarian. And you either would agree with him or you would have to leave the house. I remember that when I decided to study journalism and communication, he told me that that was not a legitimate profession. He wanted me to be a doctor, an attorney, an engineer or an architect like him. Those were the only professions that were legitimate for him. And then, when I told him, "No. I want to study communications, I want to study journalism". I remember clearly that he said, "What are you going to do with that?" In fact, the expression stayed with me for a long time. I told that, "You know, I don't know exactly what I'm going to do with that". But that's precisely what I want to do. AXELROD: Why did you want to do it? RAMOS: I realized that journalism was my way of being a witness to what was happening in the world. I Ep. 9 Jorge Ramos 1

wanted to travel. And that was the only way to get to know the people that was changing the world. And at some point in my life, I also want to get involved in politics. So, I thought that journalism was the best way to do that. And -- AXELROD: You know, we have this in common. That was my route into politics was, I was a journalist. I was a political writer for the Chicago Tribune. And I got into journalism because I was interested in politics. I mean that was the root into journalism. RAMOS: So, you went from journalism to politics? AXELROD: Yes. RAMOS: I thought I was going to go from politics to journalism. At one point, remember this is 1980s in Mexico. But then, the same political party had been in power for more than five decades. I thought that I was going to die with the PRI, that's the name of the party -- AXELROD: Yes. RAMOS: -- in power. And I, I was rebelling against that. [00:04:58] So, I thought if I get in politics it would be impossible for me to do anything in Mexico, because you would have to be part of the party. And I didn't want to be part of the PRI. It was a corrupt party. They were responsible for a massacre in 1968 in which hundreds of students had been killed by the Army. So, I just didn't want to be part of that. So, I thought that journalism was an alternative. But then, of course, there was direct censorship from the presidency, from Los Pinos which is the equivalent of the White House, directly to the mass media. And my third report on the year as a television reporter. I was very young. I was completely -- AXELROD: 24 years old? RAMOS: Exactly. I was completely censored. And they told me -- I still remember my boss telling me. You know what, you -- AXELROD: Well, how did that manifest? What was the story and why do they stopped you from doing? RAMOS: It was something very simple. I tried to do a story on how the president in term (ph) would choose the one who's going to be the next president, because democracy didn't exist by that time. The president will decide who was going to be the next president. And that was about it. And I wanted to talk about it. So, I chose to interview two great writers back then. And my boss told me, "They are not from the house". Which -- and he -- what he meant is that, "You couldn't interview people that were not preapproved by the government". So, anyway I did my story. It was completely censored. I was very young. AXELROD: So, you talk to people you wanted to talk? RAMOS: I did. I did the story exactly the way I wanted to do it. But when I came back to the station they told me, "No. You simply cannot do it". They rewrote the story. They wanted me to tract the audio. I said, "No". And then, I wrote my letter of resignation, because I knew that I have no future. AXELROD: So, let me ask you this. Your 24 years old. It's tough to get a job in journalism at 24. What Ep. 9 Jorge Ramos 2

is it about you that caused you to be so defined? You mentioned your dad was an authoritarian figure. RAMOS: Yes. AXELROD: Was it a general resistance to authoritarianism or? RAMOS: I think so. I was resisting against the authoritarian ways of my father. I was resisting and rebelling against the authoritarian ways of the church. When I was growing up in elementary school and high school, the priests that were in charge of the school, they would hit us with shoe soles. And there would be almost physical punishment against the students. So, I was rebelling against my father, against the church and against the government. So, obviously, at that point I decided I can't stay in Mexico. I can't stay. I got to go. I sold my car. I got $2,000 for my car. UCLA Extension accepted me for a one year course in journalism and television. And I left everything. January 2nd, 1983. And I remember that feeling of freedom for the first time in my life, everything that I own, everything, a back, a guitar, some papers. Everything I could carry with my both hands. I never felt more freedom than in those days when I arrived in Los Angeles. AXELROD: And how are you received in Los Angeles as an immigrant? RAMOS: I couldn't even understand myself in English. Even now I have a very strong accent. But even -- just imagine back then, I had studied English for a few years when I was growing up and it was very difficult. But UCLA Extension helped me a lot. I studied English my first few months. And then, I ended up studying journalism and television in the United States. It was difficult, because, Alexis de Toqueville says that, "The rich and the powerful don't go into exile". And he's absolutely right, because I didn't want to be an immigrant. I was forced to be an immigrant, because the country where I was born couldn't give me the opportunities that the United States gave me. So, that's why came. And then, just imagine after one year at UCLA I got my job at the Univision station in Los Angeles. And then, I realized in those first few weeks that I could say everything. It was an incredible sense of freedom and happiness, because all my life I have been used to censorship. And the imposing views of the party in power. And then, suddenly here I'm in the United States enjoying the First Amendment. Saying whatever I wanted. And nobody ever said anything to me about what I could say and what I couldn't say. AXELROD: Yes. I think that's underappreciated. RAMOS: It is. AXELROD: If you spend your life in this country, and you don't have experience that you had. You take those things for granted. [00:09:58] RAMOS: And then for instance, I've had the opportunity to talk to every single U.S. president since George Bush Sr. And in some cases, I've had confrontations with the U.S. presidents. AXELROD: Yes. RAMOS: With George W. Bush, with President Barack Obama. And it is incredible to be able to criticize the president of United States. And after that nothing happens. Your fine, you go home, nothing happens. And I'm thinking that in Mexico. AXELROD: But bad for your ratings. Ep. 9 Jorge Ramos 3

RAMOS: Well, who knows? But just imagine had I done the same thing in Mexico. Let me give you a number. In the last 10 years, 80 journalists have been killed in Mexico for many different reasons. So, this is a big difference. Had I stayed in Mexico for sure I would've been a sensor journalist. And who knows if I would've been alive. And then, here in the United States. I can report on whatever I want. I can be critical with the system and with the president and nothing happens. And that's the beauty of this country. It is fantastic. AXELROD: One of the things that I think make great journalists is great journalists who are iconoclast, great journalists who are willing to challenge authority. That was one of the things that attracted me to being a reporter. And I grew up in a newsroom where you are encouraged to challenge authority. Do you think that that is still the governing dynamic in journalism today? Do you think people are encouraged to challenge authority? RAMOS: The best examples of journalism that we have either are moral (ph), confronting Joe McCarthy or Walter Cronkite, criticizing the Vietnam War, the reports of the Washington Post, forcing the resignation of Richard Nixon, or even Anderson Cooper after Hurricane Katrina, criticizing the response of the Bush administration, the terrible, the horrible response after Hurricane Katrina. Those are examples of journalist challenging power. My concern is that many times in this country we see examples of journalist who are not challenging power. When the president is your friend, when the senator is your friend, when the major is friend or the candidate is your friend, it is very difficult for you to challenge power. But I think our place as journalist is not within the circle of power, but right on the edge of power. In other words we have to be in between the White House and the street. We have to be in between the candidates and the voters. And our place as journalists is not only outside the power. But I think our role is to be the untied power. Our power becomes that possibility of challenging those who are in power. And I'm not seeing that as much as I would like. AXELROD: Let me ask you about that, because, you know, there is a well, now, well-developed image of sort of the anchorman or anchorwoman in American television. And yes, there is an element of challenge involved. But it's often about reading the news and presenting the news in a way that people feel comfortable with you. And so, the question is. How much is it appropriate to challenge, how much do you -- how much should -- you've created quite a stir. For example, you created one recently with Donald Trump. And you went and you challenged him at a press conference. There a lot of folks there who felt that you went there to create a confrontation. I mean is that, is that a fair surmise? AXELROD: Exactly. Yes. Because, I felt that there was the need. I had a need as a journalist to confront somebody who was lying and who was wrong about immigrants in this country. I think that the most important social responsibility that we have as journalist is to confront those who are in power. Our role, our real role socially, is to prevent the abuse of those who are in power. And then, here comes the question. When is it correct or appropriate to challenge power? Well, I think when it is racism, discrimination, corruption, public lies, dictatorships and human rights. In those instances our role is not only appropriate to challenge power but we are forced. It is our obligation to challenge power when that happens. So, when Donald Trump says, that some Mexican immigrants are criminals, drug traffickers and rapist. We know that it's not true, all the stories that I've seen. The American Immigration Consul, the Immigration Policy Center, all of them say that immigrants are less likely to be criminals. Those are the facts. Ep. 9 Jorge Ramos 4

[00:15:01] And here comes one candidate who with his speeches is promoting bigotry, and division, and intolerance. That's precisely our role to challenge them. So, I did what every -- AXELROD: So, those who would argue that, "No. Your role is to deliver the news and tell people what happened that day". RAMOS: That's just part of my role. I think I have to rewrite if, if five people died. I have to say five. If it's red, I have to say red. I have to be accurate. And I have to be precise. But that's just part of our role as journalists. The other part of our role and that's very important. And sometimes we forget that we have that responsibility. Is to challenge those who are in power and to take a stand. I know this is debatable. But I think we have to take a stand when it comes again, to racism, discrimination, corruption, public lies, dictatorship and human rights. If we don't take a stand, we are not doing our job. And that's precisely what I did with Donald Trump. I started that in a nice way. So, I -- after he said that, I said, "I needed to talk to Donald Trump". So, I sent him a letter. Instead of responding to my letter and saying yes or no I want to give you the interview. He's published on the internet my cell phone. And of course I had to change my cell phone number. AXELROD: So, you should've tweeted. That's how he likes to communicate. RAMOS: Well, but he didn't even do that. So, he put it, he put my cell phone number on the internet. So, the first lesson with Donald Trump is that you should never ever, ever give him your cell phone number. After that, that was in June. We were thinking of ways of challenging him, of finding the right moment to confront him. And we found in last August the possibility of doing that in Iowa. So, we went to Iowa to talk to him. And after I started asking my question, he immediately realized who I was. And then, he did exactly what he's been doing for the past few months, which is try to silence me and call another report. But we had seen that in the press conferences before. We had studied what he had done. So, we -- I made two choices. First, that I was going to ask my question standing up. Visually it is very important for T.V. to be standing up. Had I stayed sitting down. It would've been a visually an imbalance. And second, that he all the time tries to interrupt you saying excuse me, excuse me, excuse me. And I was going to continue asking my question regardless of whatever he was going to be saying. And that's what, that's what I did. And he couldn't handle that. And then, he did the impossible, which is, which I thought that was impossible. That I would ever see something like that in the United States which is a direct attack on freedom of the press. He called his bodyguard to throw me out of a press conference. In my 30 years as journalist, I have never been ejected from a press conference. I've been to Cuba and to Venezuela but I have never been ejected by a bodyguard from a press conference. The only bodyguard who had stopped me from asking questions in the past was Fidel Castro's bodyguard in 1990, in Mexico, in Guadalajara, Mexico. That was the only example that I have in which I have faced something like that. And then, here comes Donald Trump doing exactly the same in the United States. RAMOS: But that was pretty good television, right? RAMOS: It was good television. Part of the television, it has two elements. One has to do with content. And another part has to do with performance. So, in that sense is not that I did good television. Television doesn't happen like that. You have to produce television. But it was Donald Trump who made a huge mistake. I think by asking a bodyguard to throw me out of a press conference. He made a huge mistake. You know, he doesn't like to apologize but he made a mistake. Ep. 9 Jorge Ramos 5

And then while I was outside of the press conference, two reporters, two great reporters, one from MSNBC and Tom Liamas from ABC, Kasie Hunt from MSNBC. They forced Donald Trump to change his decision. And they told him that if President Barack Obama had been able to withstand my questions, why wasn't he able to do exactly the same? And Kasie Hunt did a beautiful thing. She said, "You know, it's turn but let Ramos ask the question for me". And Donald Trump was forced to change his decision. And the same bodyguard that had thrown me out of the press conference was for to open the door for me. And I came back and asked my questions. AXELROD: Why do you think Trump has found such an audience for his message? You talk about how inaccurate it is, how unfair it is, how distasteful it is. [00:20:05] And yet, he's found an audience with it. What is it that is resonating out there about that message and how much is that concern you? RAMOS: Whenever there's a problem in the United States and in many other countries, instinctively, many people blame immigrants for that. It doesn't matter it has to do with the economy or with crime. Whenever there are problems in this country, they tend to blame immigrants. I'm used, so used to that. That when Donald Trump criticized Mexican immigrants, I thought that there was going to be no response but something has change. What has changed is that the Hispanic community has grown enormously. We are 55 million right now. In 35 years, that's going to be more than 100 million Latinos in this country. So, for the first time in our life, we have gone from big numbers to power. In other words, for the first time, we are responding with power. And therefore Univision, and NBC, and other companies decided to break their partnerships with Donald Trump. So, why is it resonating? Unfortunately, the simple that the reason is very simple which is there are millions of people who think just like Donald Trump. That's the truth. And that the best about the United States, it's -- is its opportunities but the worst is still is discrimination and racism. AXELROD: And where do you think this Republican debate is going, do -- are you fearful that Trump will be the nominee on the basis of those positions? RAMOS: I take Donald Trump very seriously. I think we make a mistake if we don't take him seriously. Even though, he's having problems in Iowa and nationwide, Ben Carson now is number one. I take Donald Trump very seriously because it is very dangerous when a candidate promotes bigotry and discrimination through his speeches and using his position to promote bigotry. I think it is incredibly dangerous. So, I take him very seriously. Of course, he could be the nominee. AXELROD: How do you square that, Jorge, though with the fact that the other candidates who are most frequently mentioned in the company at least right now because this is a very dynamic process. I know this from my own experience but Ben Carson, an African-American, Marco Rubio, a Cuban-American, Ted Cruz, a Cuban-American, they're the names that you hear most often when people are talking these days. So, it's -- it seems like a strange paradox that you have this nativism coming from Trump. And you have -- now, these other candidates in some ways or mirroring his message on some of the stuff but how you account for that? RAMOS: First, again, I think the reason is very simple. Millions of Americans agree with Donald Trump. And unfortunately, what I'm seeing in the Republican Party is that even though that for the first time in history we have two Latinos running for the White House, Mario Rubio and Ted Cruz. Those Latinos, Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz, had decided not to defend undocumented immigrants. Ep. 9 Jorge Ramos 6

In these breaks a long tradition of important Latino figures that have taken in their own hands the responsibility of defending undocumented immigrants. But then, Marco Rubio -- AXELROD: He was part of a group that was -- he was involved for allowing a group that was trying to solve the immigration. RAMOS: He changes his position. I still can't believe how come Marco Rubio who is the son of immigrants, both his parents were born in Cuba, or Ted Cruz whose father Rafael Cruz was born in Cuba. How come they are not defending other immigrants like their parents? I really can't understand that. I think it is very important to have two Latinos running for the White House. And I think the Democratic Party has a problem because -- AXELROD: Yeah. I want to ask about that. My own party I, you know, I've spoken about this. We're the supposed to be part of diversity but at the top of our party where are the Hispanic candidates? RAMOS: Where are they, exactly. AXELROD: And, you know, we have an African-American president but if you look at the senate and you look at the governorships, Republican Party is actually done better than the Democratic Party. Why do you think that this? RAMOS: Well, it is very clear that the Republican Party has been preparing candidates. And I haven't seen that in the Democratic Party. AXELROD: I agree with you. That's exactly is. RAMOS: Exactly. And they -- for many years, they been preparing not only Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz but many other candidates in different positions. I haven't seen that in the Democratic Party. [00:25:01] When I ask Democrats what's the problem with diversity within the Democratic Party? They say, "Well, look at the White House. We have President Barack Obama." And I'm saying, you know, that so 2008. You know, it's all right. He changed history. He is changing history but it is not enough. And there's a problem. As you know, Ron, at this being said many, many times, Ronald Reagan just to say that Latinos are really Republicans. They just don't know it. When it comes to certain values, when it comes to abortion, when come to religion, when it comes to the importance of family, maybe Latinos might feel more comfortable with Republican values done with Democratic values. But, Republicans haven't been able to exploit that. In the last two elections, you know what happened. John McCain got the 31 percent of the Hispanic vote that was not enough. Mitt Romney got 27 percent, it was not enough. And the last poll that I've seen with A.P., Donald Trump has 11 percent of the Hispanic vote. That's clearly not in -- AXELROD: What if Rubio, Cruz or a Jeb Bush, I mean, they're different. They're all different. But what if what -- let's take Rubio and Bush who are Spanish speaking and would they change the dynamic if they were the nominees in -- RAMOS: It was quite possible because I know that people have been using a 40 or 45 percent of the Hispanic vote needed for the Republicans to win but I wouldn't go that far. I just wanna -- just by starting what had had happened in the last two elections. If they can reach 33 percent, about 33 percent, it's not a sad number but about 33 percent that Republican candidate could win. Ep. 9 Jorge Ramos 7

AXELROD: Yeah. I think it may be more but George W. Bush got 44 percent of the Hispanic vote in 2004 and that was the last Republican to win. RAMOS: Exactly. That was 44 percent. But, every Republican candidate who gets above 33 percent has won an election. So, even though it might be a higher number, clearly, 31 percent John McCain or 27 percent Mitt Romney or 11 percent Donald Trump is not enough. So, when Donald Trump says I'm going to win the Hispanic vote, she's absolutely wrong. It is impossible. AXELROD: Are there other people in addition to Bush and Rubio who you think could reach into the Hispanic community in a series were Republican side? RAMOS: The only way for Latinos to take a serious look at Republicans is, if they can put away the immigration issue. And they are not willing to do that. It is because immigration is personal to us. You know and I know that the most important issues for Latinos -- AXELROD: On that? RAMOS: Yeah. It's -- AXELROD: Not immigration. RAMOS: Exactly. It's the economy, education, healthcare, jobs those are more important than immigration. But immigration is in emotionally so important to us. It is personal because half of all Latinos above 18 years of age are just like me immigrants. We're foreigners. So, when you're attacking other immigrants you're attacking me. AXELROD: One of the interesting things that happened in the last election was that Mitt Romney also only got 25 percent of the Asian vote because Asians felt attacked by this anti-immigrant sentiment and it drove Asians who were more fluid group into the Democratic column. So, this is widely felt. Let me asked you though, you know, people serve lump these folks together Bush, Rubio. There's something that interest me, when I was doing television advertising here in the City of Chicago and elsewhere where there was a diverse -- there were diverse Hispanic. We talked about the Hispanic community. But there are many Hispanic communities. Here there's a very strong Mexican American community. There is strong Puerto Rican community. And traditionally, they've not been very close. And so, when I did ads, I would hire a Colombian voiceover because I don't want to offend either the Mexican- Americans or Puerto Ricans. And I know that you -- I read, I don't know if this is so that your accent when you're broadcasting is not a Mexican accent. RAMOS: You're right. AXELROD: And I presume you're making that same judgment that you have to appeal to a broader audience is that -- RAMOS: That's absolutely right. My accent is completely neutral. I -- my first news director here in the United States show me how to have a neutral accent in Spanish and that is simply by not extending the bowels. So, instead of saying presidente, you just say presidente. In other words, and if you do that in Spanish and then, you have a neutral accent and many people didn't have an idea if I was from Mexico, or from Columbia, or from Cuba which is great especially in a community which is so diverse. Ep. 9 Jorge Ramos 8

[00:30:07] AXELROD: The reason I ask you that is, there's this presumption that Rubio would do very, very well among Hispanic vote writ large. When we were doing research on potential vice presidential nominees who Mitt Romney might choose, there was an interesting thing that we found which was that that Mexican-Americans were not terribly receptive to Rubio as a Cuban-American that in feel a kinship with him. Do you think that would be a barrier for him if he ran if you were the nominee? RAMOS: Yes. Absolutely, because as you know Cuban-American tend to vote more for the Republican Party than for the Democratic Party but I don't think that neither Rubio nor Bush nor Cruz could win the majority of the Hispanic vote. That would be impossible because the tradition is very strong. I think Democrats will win the Hispanic vote, no question about it. But, it doesn't matter because the only thing that needs to go above 33 percent. And that something that Rubio and Bush can do. And that's a big threat for the Democratic Party because both Rubio, and George Bush, and Ted Cruz if he does better. They can get above 33 percent. Just imagine Jeb Bush speaking Spanish directly to Latinos. Just imagine my Marco Rubio -- AXELROD: Now, he does speak with a Mexican -- RAMOS: -- with a Mexican accent but he -- you can clearly understand Jeb Bush. And obviously in the case of Marco Rubio, just imagine those two candidates speaking directly to the Latinos. We have an example and you know that. George W. Bush's -- AXELROD: Yes. RAMOS: -- was the first US president who thought that he spoke Spanish. And he was wrong. However, he made a huge effort to try to communicate in Spanish and he was just saying a few a words in Spanish. (Foreign Language) Welcome. And that word, David, because, you know he got 44 percent of the Hispanic vote at the end. Of course, he also suggested that he was going to legalize the majority of undocumented immigrants. And he was already talking with Presidente Vicente Fox to have an immigration agreement between both countries. And obviously, after 9/11 nothing happen. AXELROD: You know I want -- I was in the White House for couple of years went -- in the first couple of years of the Obama administration. You were very tough on the president and in his reelection because we didn't enact Comprehensive Immigration Reform. I was in a room in the summer of 2009 when the president met with everyone Democrat Republican which supported immigration reform under George W. Bush. And we couldn't get any of the Republicans to join with us in a joint effort to pass it. Why did you feel that there onus was on the president? You are student of American democracy. We've learned in great painful detail that Congress has the ability to block a lot of things. So, why were you, you know and I'm not here to prosecute a grievance. I'm just eager to know what -- how why you made that distinction? RAMOS: And my glad you're bringing this up because that solves I'm so curious about what happened. I've asked everyone about what happened in those days. AXELROD: Well, let's sorts out that run down. RAMOS: Rahm Emanuel, I even spoke with the Ben Bernanke a few days ago and asked him what happened. First, is that candidate -- Ep. 9 Jorge Ramos 9

AXELROD: We never should put Bernanke in charge of this reform. That was our first mistake, right there. RAMOS: The first problem, if you want to put it that way, is that a candidate Barack Obama promised in Denver, Colorado that he was going to introduce immigration reform during his first year office. Let's put in context. Back then, candidate Hillary Clinton had promised to do to introduce immigration reform during the first 100 days. So, candidate Obama thought that in order to win the Hispanic vote he needed to promise something similar. And he told me not in the first 100 days but in the first year. So, that was a promise. And among Latinos that was known as "La promesa Obama", Obama's promise. Then President Obama makes history. He gets to the White House and then, nothing happens. I know that we were in the middle of an economic crisis. But, if he knew that even before he was president. So, why did he promise something like that? And then, when both chambers of Congress were in Democratic hands, why he didn't use those moments those few months before Kennedy passed away. [00:35:11] Why he didn't use those moments to pass immigration reform? AXELROD: Is it your assumption that all those Democrats were in favor of Comprehensive Immigration Reform? RAMOS: I wouldn't say all of them but -- AXELROD: But we only had either pick 60 Democrats which is the minimum you needed to override a filibuster. RAMOS: Yes, but that was even before a health reform. So, my question is when you had the White House and both chambers of Congress, why didn't you use those moment those -- that time to try to introduce immigration reform? Why not in the first 100 days? AXELROD: The answer is we couldn't pass it. We didn't have the votes to pass it. If we had had the votes to pass it, we would have move forward on it. And in some ways, you're at the mercy of the legislative leadership as well. Their message was, "Hey, we've got all those economics stuff that you just moved that was hard. You're trying to pass comprehensive immigration -- comprehensive health reform, which as you know, had disproportion it impact on the Hispanic community, as well. And there's a limit to what the load can carry so, this is going to have to wait. And so there's no doubt it was a political decision on what could be accomplished we tried to pass at the end of the first two years of the DREAM Act, and we had 55 votes in the Senate for the DREAM Act, so which was short of what we wanted in terms of comprehensive reform. RAMOS: That's what I'm saying. It was a political decision at some -- AXELROD: But a political decision in the sense that it couldn't be -- we couldn't accomplish it in that timeframe, so you have to make choices. RAMOS: Exactly. And then somebody decided in the White House. And that's why I'm curious how it happens. Somebody decided that let's sacrifice the Hispanic community. This is the promise -- AXELROD: But, Jorge, is it a sacrifice would with the Hispanic community had been advantaged by trying and losing? I mean -- Ep. 9 Jorge Ramos 10

RAMOS: Of course not, of course not. AXELROD: Yes. Okay. RAMOS: No, no. AXELROD: So, that's, I mean, that was the choice. The choice was do we want to go for this, force people to take where in some of their constituents to be a hard vote and not be able to pass it because that was the choice. RAMOS: Because my impression and this is new for me, because my impression was that there were devotes. AXELROD: Oh no. RAMOS: That in both houses that the votes were there to pass immigration reform. AXELROD: No. That's not right. I guarantee you if the votes were there that the president would've moved it. RAMOS: That's because that's precisely where we have a where we'd had a conflict with the president because we've always been under the impression that when he was controlling both the chambers, that he was going -- that he could have move on immigration, and he decided not to. And that's -- AXELROD: Well, there's no doubt he decided not to, but the votes were not there. If the votes where there he would have move it. RAMOS: She didn't explain correctly because we only know that he decided not to move on immigration. And then, after that, he started deporting hundreds of thousands of immigrants. He has deported more immigrants than any other president in the history of the United States. So here we have a president who had promised something. He for us, he didn't keep his word. He didn't explain correctly why he could have more on immigration, and then he'd has deported and destroyed millions -- thousands of families. So, and move too late on the DREMERS and obviously with the parlance of the DREAMERS, too late. So -- AXELROD: And how do you assess him now? He's obviously taking actions over the years. Do you think that he's been a positive force or not? RAMOS: I certainly appreciate the fact that he still fight for immigration reform. That he's always trying to do something about it. However, I think that within the Hispanic community, three major failings are always reported. First, his promise, second, that he didn't move on immigration, third that he has deported a lot of people. And then, finally, that he moved too late, way too late. Why in the six-year he moved on? When he realized that nothing was going to be done with immigration reform, why didn't he move before? He changed his position as you know, well, I don't know if you know. But he said that he didn't have the authority to enact the DREAM Act or DACA. And he did have the authority. AXELROD: Yes. Although I think his concern and I'm not here to debate you on his behalf, he can do that on his own. [00:40:01] But his concern and it remains his concern that actions that are taken solely on executive authority or actions that can easily be reversed by future presidents, and that the long-term solution is a Ep. 9 Jorge Ramos 11

legislative solution. So, let me ask you this. What is your -- what are your -- assessment of the chances in the next few years of actually enacting Comprehensive Immigration Reform? RAMOS: You know, I think we were very close in 2013 very, very close after the Senate pass immigration reform. And now I'm sensing that it's becoming more and more difficult. AXELROD: Paul Ryan just got like the speaker the house or the -- RAMOS: Nominated. AXELROD: -- nominate but he'll be named to put one presumes to be a speaker of the house, there was some dissent in the -- part of the reason it was dissent in the Republican Caucus was because he's been an outspoken supporter of the immigration reform. He's done events with Luis Gutierrez and others. RAMOS: And he made a commitment not to bring immigration reform to a vote until President Obama's leaves office. AXELROD: And do you think ultimately will be an ally on this? RAMOS: I hope so. I certainly hope so. I hope that he doesn't flip-flop on immigration, because he's really our last chance. And we got to see who wins the White House. If it's Democrats, probably the Senate would support that but we would need Paul Ryan. No question about it. And then, if nothing happens, you know, I've been taken by surprise by the strength of Donald Trump's ideas on immigration, and how many Americans are supporting that point of view. And if that continues that means that we won't have immigration reform, and that we will have a generation that we'll have to sacrifice themselves for those who are coming now. AXELROD: I think it's important to point out that in most of the polling that I've seen even a majority of Republicans are in favor of some of positive resolution to this that would legalize the status of the undocumented worker. So it isn't as if Trumps representing a majority of Americans or anything closer or even a majority of Republicans, but it's a very strident group within the Republican Party that seems to jam up the works RAMOS: But the problem for the Republicans is if they don't understand that immigration reform or some kind of immigration law is a prerequisite for Latinos to take a serious look at them. They're going to continue loosen the White House over and over and over again. AXELROD: I think there are lots of Republicans who know that, and agree with you. They just -- they're frustrated in having -- and they haven't really unified behind that -- RAMOS: They're going to lose the White House -- AXELROD: -- a horse in the race. RAMOS: There going to lose the White House again. Next year, there going to be 16 million Latinos eligible to vote. Obviously not all of them are going to the polls but let's say that 15 million or 10 million will go to the polls, more than enough to decide a close election. President Obama, in the last election, he won by less than 5 million votes. So, 16 million Latinos could decide the next election. And Republicans, if they don't understand that, they're going lose. AXELROD: One more point, there states like Colorado, Florida and others that can be tipped by Latino votes. Ep. 9 Jorge Ramos 12

RAMOS: Exactly. And every month, thousands of Latinos are turning 18. And this is what I called the Latino wave. And this Latino wave will continue. The fact is that the normal in politics for us, is that no one obviously can make it to the White House without the Hispanic vote. But this will continue, will be more than a million Latinos in less than 35 years. And what Donald Trump doesn't understand, he doesn't understand the new American. Because then the -- in 2055, and you'll be 100, I'll be 97. AXELROD: Yes. RAMOS: And hopefully we'll be hear us. AXELRDO: Yes. Yes. We'll still be having a conversation, I hope. RAMOS: We'll have a conversation. In 2055, the white population in this country will become a minority. So, this, the trend, the big trend in this country, other than technology, the big trend is that this country is becoming more multicultural, multiethnic, and multiracial, that's the trend. Donald Trump doesn't believe that. Keep things that he can win the White House only with a white vote. He's completely wrong. So if you will see this trend in which everyone is going to be a minority. Then, you don't understand the United States and Republicans many Republicans cannot see that, and cannot understand that. That's precisely what's happening right now. [00:45:00] AXELROD: I got to cover three things with you before I let you go. One is Mexico and its own leadership crisis. You had a new President-elected Peña Nieto three years ago. RAMOS: Yes. AXELROD: And there was great hope, and he started off with a way of reforms. He seems to be bogged down now with a ton of problems. What happened to him? And have you lost hope for him? RAMOS: Yes, absolutely. I have no hope in Peña Nieto. He's repeating the same practices of the PRI, the same PRI that I knew when I was growing up in Mexico. Two major problems, one has to do with corruption. Can you imagine if in the United States the first lady would buy a house from a government contractor and she would make a contract for $7 million? The president would have to leave office. Well, that's precisely what happened in Mexico. The Mexican First Lady Angélica Rivera, she bought a house for $7 million from a government contractor who's getting millions of dollars from Peña Nieto's government, and nothing happened. Absolutely nothing happened. So, that's in term of corruption. So, if the president of Mexico cannot control what's going on within his own home, just imagine with the rest of the country. Then human there are a lot of human rights violations. Last year, you know, in a little town in Southern Mexico, Iguala, Ayotzinapa, 43 students disappeared. Most likely they were killed. And even now the president doesn't know where they are, most likely that the federal police and the Mexican army had a role in the disappearance of those. AXELROD: Because they were dissidents. RAMOS: Exactly. They were protesting the government. And -- AXELROD: It goes to your point earlier. Ep. 9 Jorge Ramos 13

RAMOS: Exactly. So, just imagine that human rights are being violated constantly in Mexico, and finally, there seems to be no rule of law. El Chapo, the most important truck trafficker in the world suddenly escaped. AXELROD: The biggest drug supplier to the city of Chicago, by the way, we have a big interest in that story. RAMOS: Well, and just imagine, how is it possible that the most important drug trafficker in the world suddenly escapes from a Mexican maximum-security prison? AXELROD: It seems odd, I got a confusion. RAMOS: In a tunnel. AXELROD: Yeah. RAMOS: So, if you put together corruption, crime he's a very weak president. Peña Nieto is an incredibly weak president, who in the most important moments disappears. Instead of talking, you know, that he hasn't given a single press conference since he became president. Can you imagine President Obama doing something like that? It is unthinkable. AXELROD: It is one thing to challenge political, you've also challenged the church on many occasions. Obviously, you grow up in a Catholic environment. What do you think of this new pope? Have you had a chance to meet him? RAMOS: No. It would've been great, but I had a problem with the cardinal once, with a Mexican cardinal who made sure that I couldn't have access to Pope Francis. But I love this pope. I think Pope Francis is fantastic. And I love what he did here in the United States, talking about climate change, and talking about politics, and talking about immigration. I'm very disillusioned with what he did in Cuba because he didn't want to confront the dictators, Raúl Castro and Fidel Castro. But I am concerned with that the changes that we're seeing with Pope Francis are more in style than in substance. Mainly when it comes to the cases of sexual abuse, he has a zero-tolerance policy. However, he has done absolutely nothing with the bishops and the cardinals who knew about what was happening, and they're still in their posts. So, in that sense and in the -- AXELROD: Do you think the changes he will bring to the church will be lasting changes? RAMOS: I think it's only in style. He had -- he doesn't have the interest or the will to bring in women to the church to become priest. AXELROD: But in fairness how much can he, I mean, he seems to be challenging. He seems to be challenge a lot of all of the orthodoxy of the church in terms of attitudes about a number of these issues, and reorienting the church to fight again to fighting for the poor, the disadvantaged. And there's a lot of change that he's promoting at a very fast clip. How much -- but you don't think antisubstance? Not even on those things. [00:50:01] RAMOS: Not in substance. AXELROD: And the climate stuff. RAMOS: Exactly, because just imagine even though he has a very positive attitude towards gays. I mean who am I to judge he said in a plain once. Gays are still banned from getting married in the Ep. 9 Jorge Ramos 14

church. And sometimes they cannot even go to church in a certain countries. And women are not allowed to be at the same level as men. And the cases of sexual abuse within the church are being analyzed and started within the church, but priests and bishops and cardinals who knew about what was happening are still in the position, so it's only style not substance. AXELROD: Talk to me for just a minute about your new project Fusion. It's led by a board member of the Institute of Politics. We're proud to claim them as such Isaac Lee, brilliant guy. What are you trying to accomplish there? This is a different -- this is a new project that really speaks to the changing nature of our demographics in this country. RAMOS: Exactly. The idea, by the way today, it's our second anniversary on the air. And the fact that -- AXELROD: We would have cake. RAMOS: Yes. We had in Miami. The facts that we're standing, that we're thriving means that the project was conceived correctly. At the beginning, we thought that we only wanted to aim at young Latinos. And then we did some research, and we realized we were going to make a huge mistake, because young Latinos didn't want to be put in a special box. And they realize that instead of just aiming at young Latinos, we were going to aim at millennia's overall. And it's working. What's really interesting about Fusion for instance, I'm doing a show in which half the audience that I have don't own a TV. So, I'm doing television for people who don't have a television, and that's the new challenge for us as journalists. And if we don't understand that this is changing so fast, we're going to lose our jobs. AXELROD: So, they ran out and got the Walter Cronkite of Hispanic to relate to this millennials, and its working. That says a lot about you. RAMOS: Well, I mean, I think if you are a true journalist, you always have to be a rebel. And I think that's what millennials want to do all the time. They want to be rebels, and they are being rebels because they're revolutionizing whatever we do. And I'm learning a lot from them. AXELROD: Jorge, it's good to have you here. We learn a lot from you all the time and I appreciate your spending time with us. RAMOS: This is wonderful. Thank you. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you for listening to "The Axe Files". For more podcasts like this, subscribe to "The Axe Files" on itunes. And for more programming from the Politics University of Chicago Institute of Politics visit politics.uchicago.edu. Ep. 9 Jorge Ramos 15