John G. Skewes '51 TU '56. Director of Business Affairs, Emeritus

John G. Skewes '51 TU '56 Director of Business Affairs, Emeritus An Interview Conducted by Mary S. Donin May 28, 2003 June 4, 2003 DOH-49 Special Collections Dartmouth College Hanover, New Hampshire

INTERVIEW: INTERVIEW BY: PLACE: Jack Skewes Mary Donin Rauner Library, Dartmouth College, Hanover, New Hampshire DATES: May 28, 2003 MARY JACK Today is Wednesday, May 28, 2003. I am Mary Donin and I am sitting in Rauner Library with Jack Skewes, the former business manager of Dartmouth College. So we're talking about chronology here, Mr. Skewes. I guess I would first like to start out by hearing a little bit about your undergraduate years at Dartmouth. First of all I would like to know how you ended up coming to Dartmouth in the first place. Did you have family? No family. I was born in Claremont, New Hampshire and lived there through my junior year in high school. My dad and mother used to bring me up to Dartmouth football games and track meets when we were competing against Army that had Glenn Davis, "Doc" Blanchard -- great All-Americans -- and basketball games, particularly during World War II when ROTC programs were here and Dartmouth was getting all of these All-Americans from all over the country coming in to train. So I just was sort of a Dartmouth fan from being a kid. Then we moved to Concord, Massachusetts, when I was a senior. My dad took a job down there, and I went to Concord High School my senior year and the principal of the school was a Dartmouth graduate. To be honest with you, Dartmouth was the only school I applied to. I mean, thatʼs what you did in those days I guess. So I got to Dartmouth. I just never considered anything else. I donʼt believe I took college board exams. I donʼt think you did that in 1946. So thatʼs how I ended up at Dartmouth. I played football and other sports in high school and I was semi-recruited by Milt Piepul [Milton J. "Milt" Piepul], who was then the backfield coach under Coach Tuss McLaughry [DeOrmand "Tuss" McLaughry], although I would have come to Dartmouth anyway, because thatʼs what I wanted to do. MARY Were you attracted by the football, especially? Not really because, you know, I played for a small-time high school and I ended up playing here at Dartmouth; but I was 2

third-string and spent most of my time on the bench except my freshman year when you had freshmen sports then. But, no, I mean I just wanted to go to Dartmouth. That was it. So who were your roommates? Do you remember your roommates? Sure. My roommates were Jim Wylie [James R. Wylie III '51], who I saw at my 50 th reunion for the first time in 50 years, and the other roommate was a man named Bill Peavey [William B. Peavey '51] from Ladysmith, Wisconsin, and he died ten or fifteen years ago. Then I never roomed with those two after that time. I had other roommates. What dorm were you in? My freshman year, I was in middle Fayerweather and I stayed there my sophomore year. In my junior year I lived in Beta House. In my senior year, I lived in Russell Sage with a fraternity classmate and a Psi U friend. So I moved around a little bit. [Laughter] Then in middle Fayerweather, we had the custodian -- we called then janitors then. We had two rooms with a bedroom and a living room and we had a private bath. If we didnʼt get up, he would come in and wake us up and say, Itʼs time to go to class. [Laughter] The custodian, the janitor did? Yeah. I remember when we lived in the Beta House, we had Harriet Tanzi. She was our housemother, if you could call her that. She didnʼt live there. Her husband was Harry Tanzi, one of the Tanzi brothers who owned the store downtown. Harriet would make our beds. If we didnʼt clean up, she would tell us to clean up. [Laughter] It was a great place to live, you know. Very different from today. Oh, yeah. It was fun. Lots of pranks still went on, nonetheless, I gather from talking with other people of your era in the dorms. Yeah. We did some hazing of the Well, in the dorms I donʼt remember that much. There were several other guys from 3

Vermont Academy. I didnʼt go to Vermont Academy, but I played against Vermont Academy when I went to Stevens High in Claremont, so I knew two or three fellows. They were all in middle Fayerweather; but I donʼt remember the pranks part of it. Maybe I just forgot that. [Laughter] But, you know it was a different era then. There were a lot of routine things that you did. You got up and you went to Thayer Hall for breakfast. It was the Dartmouth Dining Association then. You would go to class and you would do your activities in the afternoon and you would go to the library at night and study. I think we went to the movies. Now that I think about it, the movies we probably went to two or three times a week because I sort of remember going on Tuesday nights. Monday night was Great Issues. That was a big deal. Then whatever partying I donʼt really think we called it partying then, but it was strictly weekends, maybe a Friday or Saturday night if there was a hockey game or a basketball game. If you were a hockey fan, you went back to the Phi Gam House because thatʼs where the hockey players were. If you were a basketball fan, you went to the Beta House or the Psi U House or the Phi Psi House and there would be a keg of beer. You would sort of sit around and talk about the game, and that was it. Now, in those days of course, the drinking age was probably 18, wasnʼt it? You know, I donʼt even know what the drinking age was? It was never an issue. There was never any hard liquor that I recall. It was all just beer. You know there were road trips, as we called them. If you had a date that you were following at either Colby- Sawyer -- Colby Junior then -- or at Smith or Skidmore Other than that, it was 2400 men; 600 in every class, and virtually no graduate students that were visible anyway. What was your major? History. History. Do you remember any particular teacher who you saw as a mentor or who had an influence on you? 4

Well, I wrote my senior thesis with Professor Hill, Herbert Hill [Herbert W. Hill]. Did you know Josh Hill [Josiah French Hill II '52]? I think he died. He was the college editor for twenty years. It was his father. Professor Hill was very active in Democratic politics in the state of New Hampshire. You know, I took all of the Professor Foley [Allen R. Foley '20], who was, of course, a character; Professor Adams [John C. Adams], who taught Professor Gazley [John G. Gazley]. I mean I remember all of those men. Professor Stilwell [Lewis D. Stilwell]. Professor Foley was Cowboys and Indians. That was the name of one of his courses. [Laughter] He was a great guy. I knew him for years afterwards because he was in the Rotary Club, one of the few faculty people that ever joined Rotary. Professor Stilwell taught a course on the war, civil war, and I canʼt remember what we called it. It was something like guns and bullets or some such name like that. So that was my department, the history department. What about the Great Issues course? What are your memories of that? Well, my memories of that are that I remember who I sat with. Dave Skinner [David L. Skinner '51]. We sat alphabetically and Dave Skinner was on my left and Frank Smallwood [Franklin Frank Smallwood ʻ51] was on my right. You know, they brought important people, labor leaders and political leaders and Professor Jensen [Arthur E. Jensen '46] was on the stage and he introduced them. I mean I remember that, but I canʼt give you anything specific in terms of a message that was given to me. When you say on the stage, was it here? Webster Hall? No. 105 Dartmouth is where it was. I think it was every Monday night or most Monday nights and that was sort of a high point of our senior year because you werenʼt tested. You didnʼt have to take notes. You would just sit and listen to these people who you had heard about famous people. That was sort of the culmination of the senior year. President Dickey [John Sloan Dickey ʻ29]. Do you remember the first time you met him? 5

Well the first time I met him was in Baker Library when we matriculated. He sat down and chatted for two minutes I guess. He shook hands and welcomed you to Dartmouth. Then I remember him as an undergraduate only in terms that I saw him around. As I said, I played football and he would come down to Chase Field occasionally. I donʼt know, once a week maybe, with his dog, which was either a golden lab or a golden retriever. I canʼt remember which one. I think it was a golden lab. He had one and he would talk with the coaches and be there. We also had a very active intramural softball program, which was played on the green, if you can imagine. Home plate was near the senior fence and left field was on Baker lawn, so the field was coming this way. We would get crowds of I guess three or four hundred people who would come to those games and he used to be there sometimes. I remember him walking. I would see him going downtown and so forth. Other than that, certainly as an undergraduate, you didnʼt want to go to Parkhurst Hall like you do now. I mean you never wanted to go to Dean Neidlingerʼs [Lloyd K. Neidlinger '23] office. I mean that was the worst thing in the world. There wasnʼt much touchy-feely sort of soft things like you have nowadays with a lot of deans to help students. What did it mean if you had to go to Dean Neidlingerʼs office? Well it means you are in trouble. I had to go there once, I recall, and was notified that I was on probation at the end of the first term of my freshman year. He explained to me what that meant, that I had to have a -- I donʼt know -- a 2.2 average at the end of my second term or I would be separated. I never sat down. I sort of stood in front of his desk like I did when I was in the Army Corps in the captainʼs office. You know the other offices in Parkhurst were the bursarʼs office downstairs, and I guess I remember going to the bursarʼs office to do something. But Parkhurst was sort of a no-no. You just stayed away. Now, when you graduated, did you intend at that time to come back to Tuck? 6

No. I didnʼt have the grades. I couldnʼt have gotten in. Tuck was a 5-4 at that point. A lot of my friends went there their senior year. No. When I graduated, we enlisted in I enlisted in the Army right away with three other friends because the Korean War was on and so we wanted to enlist and chose what we wanted to do. I was in Korea and then when the armistice was signed, at that point I was an officer. I had gone to officerʼs training school and they said, Who would like to get out early, line up here. So we all lined up. That was in October of ʼ53 and I was married in December of ʼ53 and worked in the iron foundry business with my father. That business then was slow because of the recession sort of and my father-in-law said to me, You ought to go to graduate school. I never had even considered it. Again, I didnʼt think of anything except Dartmouth. I mean it was so parochial it seems to me. So I came up here. The then assistant dean was Karl Hill [Karl Hill ʻ38]. Maybe he was called associate dean. I came up and had an interview. My Dartmouth grades were like C+, B-, not Tuck School caliber, certainly today anyway. I was married, and he sort of said, Well, weʼll take a chance on you. Youʼre motivated and you have got a reason to want to do it. So I came back and went to Tuck in ʼ54 and then spent two years at Tuck. I graduated in ʼ56 and went to work for Stanley Tools in New Britain, Connecticut. We lived in Farmington. We built a house for $16,000. I remember that. Had you met your wife when you were an undergraduate? No. I met my wife when I was home after getting out of officer candidate school in Concord, Massachusetts. A friend of mine who graduated with me See, I had only lived there a year. Then I was gone to Dartmouth, so I didnʼt really, wasnʼt really a part of that community other than being there in the summers working. I came home and said, you know He said, Well, I know where there are some girls type of thing. So we met and then we went to Stanley Tools, and we were in Farmington, Connecticut for four or five years. I was running a small manufacturing plant for them called Russell Jennings, which was in Chester, Connecticut. But we never were really 7

happy. I mean we didnʼt have a lot of money, so we couldnʼt join a country club where the nice swimming pools were and the golf was and tennis. So, if you wanted to play golf, you got up at 5 oʼclock in the morning and lined up at a public course. If you wanted to ski, you had to drive. They didnʼt have the interstates then, so you had to drive about six hours to get up here. If we wanted to go to the ocean, we had to So we just werenʼt happy being there and not in upper New England, because we liked the outdoors and we liked to hike and camp and canoe and ski and do all those sorts of things. So, again, I called my friend. I called up Karl Hill, the dean. We didnʼt have an elaborate placement setup then like you have nowadays. So I said to him, You know I would really like to get back to northern New England. Thatʼs where we were both from. Whatʼs available? Do you know anything? He was on the board of directors of a company in Bristol, New Hampshire, called International Packings. He said, Well, we are looking for a young MBA graduate to come in and back up the owner of the company. Would you be interested? I said, Well, sure. So we came up and I interviewed with the president and the owner named Dave Williams in Bristol, New Hampshire, which is not an unattractive place. Itʼs right on Newfound Lake. Itʼs really nice. So I went back home and I was offered that job. It wasnʼt as much money as I was making at Stanley Tools in New Britain. So we were pondering that and then Dean Hill called me back again and said, Iʼve got another position you might be interested in. The College is expanding its business operations or management because of the impending large building program that it is going to undertake -- the Hopkins Center and Leverone and Bradley/Gerry and Choate Dorms. Those were all on the drawing boards and about to start. The man who is the business manager, Richard Olmsted [Richard W. "Dick" Olmsted '32 TH '33], Class of ʼ32, needs some help because he is going to be spending most of his time with architects and engineers and the trustee building committee and so forth. So I came up here. Well, first he interviewed me outside of Hartford at some restaurant. I canʼt remember which one it was. The only thing that I remember about it He came down in a big white Cadillac with the license plate RWO, Richard W. 8

Olmsted. I was impressed. I said, Wow. This guy has got a big white Caddy. So I came up and then he invited me up here and I came up and met his staff, which wasnʼt that large. In those days, you know, we had a director of student housing and a director of the dining halls and a director of buildings & grounds. That was sort of it. They did everything. There wasnʼt this elaborate underlayment of people. So he offered me the job. So we came in March of 1960. We moved into one of the duplexes on Valley Road and we never left until 1993 when I retired. How did that feel to come back? It sort of felt natural. I mean I lived, as I said, in Claremont for the first seventeen years of my life and then four years here and two years at Tuck School, so I had been away during that interim and I came back. Of course most of the administrators in those days were all alumni, so I knew some people in admissions and I knew people in financial aid. You know I knew a lot of the coaches because they were still here when I was here. Ellie Noyes [Elliot B. Noyes '32] and Red Hoehn [Edward G. "Red" Hoehn, Jr.], those were all Dartmouth people. So it wasnʼt like I was going into a strange venue without people we knew. While we were here at Tuck -- I was married when I came back to Tuck -- Connie, my wife, worked at Campionʼs so we knew Jim Campion and we knew Ron Campion [E. Ronan "Ron" Campion '55] and she knew all the people who worked at Campionʼs. She worked there until we had our first child, which was September of my second year. So we already had some friends because we were married at Tuck and, you know, we had a lot of married friends around town. So it wasnʼt going into something new. I guess thatʼs what was attractive. We knew what we were doing and we missed the friends that we had here the two years. So it was sort of coming home. And of course Mr. Dickey was still president. Mr. Dickey was still the president. What I remember of him as the president was that we had weekly staff meetings and, in the beginning years when I was here, Dick Olmsted went to those staff meetings, but then he started to travel a lot with seeing 9

architects and engineers in New York and Mr. Nervi in Italy and so forth, so I went to those meeting on his behalf. Then, of course, when he moved on, I was there regularly. We had the meetings in Mr. Dickeyʼs office and he sat at the end of his table and the thing that I always remember about that was, apparently he used to smoke; but he had given up smoking at some earlier time in his life. But he always had a cigarette in his mouth. He would take it out and put it in. He never lit it. He just sucked on this wet cigarette. Thatʼs all I could think of. [Laughter] You know he was just a wonderful man. I guess everybody loved him. He was friendly and you would see him every morning. We all sort of came to work at the same time, I guess quarter of eight or something like that. I canʼt remember. He would be there and bring his dog. Good morning, Jack and Good morning to everybody else. It was great. It was uncomplicated for the first six or seven years I was here and then it got real complicated in the late '60s with the Students for a Democratic Society and the Parkhurst sit-ins and that sort of thing. That was a little messy for a while. That was actually my next question. Can you remember I remember the sit-in. That was Yeah, because we were the business end of it. We sort of were in charge of the buildings and so, when the students took over and they were sitting all over the place in Parkhurst Hall, we went to all the offices and said, Okay, youʼve got to leave. Just pack up and leave and take your personal stuff. Donʼt worry about it. That was serious stuff at that point, because we ended up evicting them and the sheriffs came with a big bus and put the students in the bus and took them to the county jail in wherever it was, Plymouth or someplace. But the thing I really remember was We had The dean then was Thad Seymour [Thaddeus Thad Seymour ʻ49A]. We had an office in the basement of Parkhurst that was in the northeast corner. As you face the building, it was on the right and it had windows on two sides. They are still there. You looked down and it was the office of summer programs. That was the first time we had somebody really running that. 10

The college had hired a man by the name of Waldo Chamberlin [Waldo Chamberlin ʻ27]. He was a great guy. He was an older man, sort of Well, he was feisty, with a bow tie. So we were all out of the building and all of a sudden we realized Dean Chamberlin is still in his office and the students are in there telling him to leave. He said, Iʼm not leaving. Iʼve got a lot of work to do. You know this was 3:00 in the afternoon or something. He was not going. It wasnʼt a threat of violence, but it wasnʼt very nice. It was very unpleasant because, you know, students were coming into peoplesʼ offices and bringing food and sitting at the desks and using telephones. I remember Thad Seymour down there on his hands and knees begging with Dean Chamberlin, Waldo, youʼve got to leave. Thaddeus, Iʼm not leaving. You can talk to me as long as you want. Iʼm not leaving until Iʼve got my work done. And he never left until about 6:30 that night. He just got up at his own pace and walked out and left, and the students secured the building. I donʼt remember all of that. There was some negotiation and finally the campus police and I guess the local police The sheriffʼs office I remember they came and dragged them out of there, 50 or 60 of them. They put them in buses and took them to Somehow I thought it was Plymouth, but I think it was Grafton. Yeah. Grafton. Grafton County Jail in Woodsville? Yes. I guess you are right. But that was a not very nice time. How did Mr. Dickey deal with all of that? Well, I think he dealt The students He dealt through Dean Seymour a lot. I think he was sort of the college negotiator and he had a way about him that was light. He could I mean I remember one day when he lived in what was then the deanʼs house down on I think it is called Elm Street, which is where the new Baker Library is. It is the street that was closed. Students went after him one night for protesting on something and they were just out to get Seymour. He came out with his sonʼs, Sam, who was my sonʼs age, cowboy pistols on him. [Laughter] And he climbed up the telephone pole about ten rounds and he was 11

up there and he said, All right, you guys have got to leave or I am going to shoot you up sort of thing. Of course the students at that point sort of broke up. Thatʼs sort of what he could do and I think thatʼs why he kept the thing from being ugly. I donʼt remember Mr. Dickeyʼs role particularly. I mean Iʼm sure he had to be involved, but I donʼt I mean I remember Dean Seymour being the one that was. You know that group was led by six or eight people and not the sixty who were there sitting in. Some of those students I think went on after that to be a part of a commune in Canaan or Enfield called Wooden Shoe. The only reason I know that is my wife wrote as a senior thesis at Goddard College, where she went to school for her degree after our children grew up, and she did that on communes in New Hampshire and Vermont. A lot of the people who were at Wooden Shoe are actually still around here and are very, not prominent, but. Jake Guest, who owns the food stand over on Route 5 in Norwich. Whatʼs the name of it? The food stand? Yeah. Fresh food. Kildeer? Kildeer. Thatʼs Jake Guest. He was one of them and Bruce Pacht [V. Bruce Pacht '67], who is the United Development Services president. So that core, a lot of them never left here. Of course, they went on to do what they did. I mean they were passionate about You must have seen a big change in the student body from when you arrived here in ʻ60 and all this turmoil starting about the war and Of course that was the same nationally. I mean you never saw anybody like hippies, as you would call them, or long hair. I mean when I was here and when I came back, this was a pretty well-dressed community of men you know. Then of course the whole thing started to change. Then of course the women were introduced End Tape 1, Side A 12

Begin Tape 1, Side B Okay. We were talking about how the students had changed over the [Interruption] the change in the student body from when you arrived in the '60s through the end of Mr. Dickeyʼs era anyway. How did that impact the work that you had to do specifically in your job, when you were in charge of buildings and grounds? Yeah. The way we had the office Mr. Olmsted was involved with the new construction programs as I said and he spent a lot of time in New York and Boston and Chicago and Rome, Italy, with the architects and the engineers; so I essentially had the financial business part of it: the student housing, the married student housing, faculty and staff housing, dining halls, buildings and grounds and what we called "outing properties" in those days, ski area and the golf course and Moosilauke Ravine Lodge. You know I think we were impacted to the extent that it was tougher to keep things looking the way we wanted them to look I mean keep the campus clean. You know I am sure there were more mini-food fights in Thayer Hall and the dormitories were harder for the custodians to keep clean because they were just more sloppy, some people. Were they actually doing damage to physical property? I donʼt think, no more than cosmetic damage I think. You know when I first came here, we had -- and we had it when I was at Dartmouth -- in the mud season, we had the duck boards that went across campus. I donʼt know if anybody told you about that. Thatʼs where you walked. Now you sort of walk where you want to walk. Hopefully we have got so many crosswalks now that people walk on crosswalks; but there used to be just sort of this and now you have got walks going all over the place. This is across the green? Yeah. Oh, you had to spread them all the way across the green? 13

Yeah. They went from this corner to College Hall and then from Dartmouth Row across to McNutt. There would be duckboards and you would walk on these duckboards. Of course you never had drained, crowned walks the way they have now. It was just the ground and of course the ground was, you know, muddy during March. But I donʼt think, other than there were more activists then. I donʼt remember virtually anybody being student activists when I was an undergraduate and when we first came back. But certainly after the sit-in, there became groups that were more active and would protest rate increases in dining hall contracts. The whole issue of investments started to pop up and apartheid and, you know, all that stuff. It didnʼt affect the business aspects of it other than you would sort of go through the same thing every year and you would say, Okay. Well, we have got to deal with Somebody is not going to like it. More students want to get out of their contract of dining and they wanted more independence, and more students wanted to live off campus. You know we just had a set of rules and we would listen to them and say, Sorry. Unless you have got a written doctorʼs statement, you are going to eat in our dining hall. You know some of those conversations were unpleasant, but it was nothing that was insurmountable. You had a big bicentennial to plan for as well. How big a role did your office have to play in terms of getting the campus ready? Well, yeah. Thatʼs one of those things thatʼs not big in my mind other than participating in the committee and our people did a lot of the work. We built a bigger stage, you know, that type of thing. We would spend money improving sound systems and so forth; but that doesnʼt. Thatʼs not with me particularly. Thatʼs fine. So getting to the end of Mr. Dickeyʼs time, was there a sense on campus that he was, that this was imminent, that this was going to happen? I think there were rumors because I think he retired at his 25 th year as I recall. Yeah. I think there were rumors. That was obviously a long time; but, you know, it wasnʼt anything that we gossiped about as I recall. I am trying to remember the exact year he retired in. Maybe you can tell me that. 14

He announced it I believe in 1969. I think he actually retired in 1970. ʼ70. Okay. John Kemeny [John G. Kemeny '22A] what are your memories about his election? Were you surprised that they chose a faculty member? I guess everybody was more surprised that they chose a non- Dartmouth person. I think he was the first non-alumni to be president. I think his choice was a surprise just to the extent that I donʼt recall other names being tossed around. I know there was some Dartmouth persons that were Professor Carr [Robert K. Carr '29]. I canʼt remember his first name. He was the president of Oberlin I think. I know that was one name that was talked about, just in terms of it would be somebody from Dartmouth. So I think when he was elected, you know I canʼt remember myself having any reaction either way. I knew John Kemeny and I had some dealings with him prior to that. Not in his role as chairman of the math department, but I was at that point on the school board and chairman of the building committee and we were in the throes of planning to build what is now the Ray School out on Reservoir Road, and he challenged our school enrollment population projections. [Laughter] Of course he had some fancy footwork because he was so brilliant at all this stuff. I remember he met with the school board and he challenged our figures and he had all sorts of trends and other things. We had a woman named Jean Milne who just took him on. She had done her homework. She was just wonderful. Anyway, so I had had sort of a scrape with him; not serious because it was all for the good of the kids. So anyway, when he became president, it was you know I donʼt recall having major reactions other than surprise that it wasnʼt a Dartmouth graduate, like most alumni thought, I guess. But everybody soon got convinced that he was a good person for the job. He had been here a long time. He was brilliant. The faculty was pleased, and all those things that you've got to have. 15

He was different from John Dickey. He had a different dress code. He wore turtlenecks in the winter and so all of us The two or three suits we bought, we didnʼt wear suits anymore. [Laughter] We went into flannel pants and tweed jackets and turtlenecks. Some of us did anyway. He was a different person. I think he was a late-hours person as I recall and I think he came to work late, so I never saw him coming to work and I never saw him leaving work. He smoked all the time. His wife was flamboyant, certainly much different than Chris Dickey [Christina Dickey]. How did he interact with the students? I guess the students he interacted with, he must have done a decent job. He certainly As I recall, he still taught a course. He certainly got involved in the Native American business early on. Then of course introducing women and the Hovey Grill and doing away with the Indian symbol. I mean he did a lot of controversial things. In retrospect, he had a lot of courage I mean. He probably was the perfect person to take that on. I mean he didnʼt enjoy traveling the alumni circuits, speaking. He certainly was not a -- unless you knew him -- he wasnʼt a personable political, glad-hand type of animal. It has been said that he actually was very shy. Yes. Well, I said, I think, until you know him. I mean at that point I went from being in the presidentʼs office once a week -- at staff meeting because at that point I was the business manager -- to, once the reorganization took place The trustees funded Cresap McCormick and Paget, to do a management study, which was all new to us, and they came up here and went round and round for I donʼt know -- six months I guess or four months -- and came up with suggested changes. Essentially what they did was add another layer of senior management to the college. President Kemeny dealt with that senior layer, which essentially were his people, and then kept in place the Dickey people, if you will, who had been there for a long time: Chamberlain [Edward Eddie Chamberlain, Jr. ʻ36], Dick Olmsted, John Meck [John F. Meck Jr. ʻ30], Al Dickerson [Albert Inskip "Al" Dickerson, '30]. You know, those were people who were Dartmouth names. 16

So I went from being in the presidentʼs office once a week to, I think, during his tenure, maybe went in the presidentʼs office twice. I remember just one time being with him alone. He had a question on insurance and, at that point, I was sort of the insurance expert. It wasnʼt as complicated as it is today. Now you have specialists. He had a specific question on insurance that he didnʼt want given him second hand from his new vice president. Other than that, my dealings with him were few and far between during his time there. What happened to Richard Olmsted during this? When I became the business manager, Mr. Olmsted was sort of on the back side of his career, and he had four or five major projects that he was involved in and I canʼt put my finger on exactly which ones they were. I think it was Thompson arena, which was another Nervi design, and some other major buildings that were going on, a couple of medical school buildings. So they made him director of facilities planning and he just had that responsibility and did that for a couple to three years. So then I reported to Rodney Morgan [Rodney Rod Morgan ʻ44 TH '45 TU '45], who was the new vice president of administration, which was one of the newly created positions. President Kemeny dealt through his vice presidents. He had a vice president of student affairs, Don Kreider [Donald Don Kreider]. Morgan was new and then he had several others, director of communications. Just another sort of layer of people that he had with him and he worked through those people a lot and he also worked through Lucretia Lu Sterling [Lucretia Lu Sterling Martin], who was sort of his executive assistant and chief of staff, I guess, type of person. As was Alex Fanelli [A. Alexander Alex Fanelli ʻ42]. Yes. Thatʼs right. And Alex. Yes. I think Alex did a lot of writing, too, for him. Why do you think Kemeny added this extra layer? 17

Well because I think the president of the CMP apparently recommended that and so that took the treasurer not out of play, but it made the treasurerʼs role more defined. Prior to President Kemeny -- and some of this I know and some just is what I was told -- the treasurer at Dartmouth was a very, very powerful person. This was John Meck? That was John Meck. Halsey Edgerton [Halsey C. Edgerton '06] before him was. I donʼt know how many years. A long time. You know, if you wanted five dollars, thatʼs where you had to get five dollars. I mean it was The budget was tightly controlled and he had an investment committee of the trustees. They really dealt with the endowment and the investments. The treasurer I mean we didnʼt have a human resource department. We didnʼt have all of these elaborate things. We had a man, Don Cameron [Donald W. "Don" Cameron '35], who I donʼt remember what we called him, but he was the employment manager per se. He was the one who hired secretaries and created wage scales. One person, but Mr. Meck was the one that approved them all. I mean we didnʼt have budget and priorities committees and all those elaborate things. I donʼt think President Kemeny wanted to work that way. Mr. Meck had been here so long and he was so well respected nationally that I think this new layer, as I call it, was President Kemenyʼs way of dealing with people who were here with John Dickey. Maybe today you would bounce those people with a nice golden parachute, but you didnʼt do it then. [Laughter] You know they were very active within the alumni and very big on fundraising and so forth. So I think thatʼs why they did it. I donʼt think from a management standpoint, it made much sense because it just complicated everything. Then of course when President McLaughlin [David T. Dave McLaughlin ʻ54 TU '55] came, he did away with that layer, sooner rather than later. One of the vice presidents that Kemeny brought in was a woman, Ruth Adams. Ruth Adams. Yes. 18

To be vice president for Womenʼs Affairs. Womenʼs Affairs. That brings us to the whole coeducation thing. Before coeducation actually became official, there were women on campus. Yeah. They brought in I canʼt remember what they called them. Not transfer student, but something like that. It was some name. They had the twelve-college exchange. Yeah. The exchange program. Thatʼs what it was. In terms of your job, that must have created some challenges in terms of housing them. There was because I mean that was the genius of the Dartmouth Plan, which President Kemeny devised with the faculty committee, in that we could add whatever it was, 400 women the first year or 500 or something like that, and not expand the physical plant which probably, in retrospect, was not the thing to do; however, we didnʼt have any money to do it. So that summer before the first class of women, we did a lot of renovations to -- I guess we called them residence halls then, not dormitories -- where women where going to live, in terms of the rest rooms and closets and hooks and cubbyholes and just all sorts of things, and the renovations in the gymnasium to make a womenʼs locker room and so forth. Ruth Adams played in big role in a lot of it and she was wonderful. She was, as you know, a college president at I guess Wellesley, so she knew what she wanted and said what she wanted. It was like I mean, it was sort of my first experience as I recall of dealing with a woman on that level; but it almost wasnʼt like dealing with a woman because she had been a president, you know, so that she was corporate and could speak her mind. She certainly pushed for a lot of things which I mean I can remember we -- and I think the number is like $1 million -- we had to come up with a budget of what changes we 19

had to make to accommodate women and I think we came up with $1 million and it should have been $10 million you know. We just couldnʼt anticipate everything in terms of more lighting and emergency telephones and that stuff we never thought of. For the next ten years, we added lighting every year. We would have a tour in the spring I recall with the college proctor and the dean and three or four women students plus some of the women administrators. We would go around at 10 oʼclock at night and identify dark spots on the campus. Oh, for safety you mean. For safety. We would say, Okay, we've got to add a light here because it is very dark between Wilder Hall and Ripley, Wood and Smith. It went on and on and on and on because we just couldnʼt identify all of the places. But that sort of thing we never took into account, you know, or where are women going to park their cars? Are we going to have an escort service if they come in at 11:00 at night at A Lot down on East Wheelock Street and they donʼt want to walk back? You were keeping them safe from the Dartmouth students or from Hanover people? Well, they just said, This is an unsafe situation for a single woman to be walking. Iʼm not sure we identified who they were. You know there were muggings. I donʼt know about rapes. I donʼt recall that and I certainly wasnʼt statistically involved with that as much as the campus police or the deanʼs office. The trustees voted for coeducation in November. You had less than a year to get ready for the first incoming group of women, other than the exchange women who had already been on campus. So you must have really been scrambling. Well, we were. Of course the summer was not what it is today in terms of So we were able to identify where the women were going to go and what floors they were going to be on. That was before it was sort of fully integrated. Was there resistance from the men who were in these dorms? 20

I donʼt think so. No. Certainly there were some dorms, yeah, that didnʼt want to be made coed, and I canʼt remember what they were; but there were signs hanging out the windows. You know Donʼt integrate Gile Hall." I mean more of the good old boys having a good time than I mean I donʼt think they probably wanted the women in their dorm because it sort of cut their style down. They couldnʼt run around in their skivvies as much and the language maybe had to be cleaned up; but that sort of gradually evolved like all the rest of it did. We had problems with scheduling fields in terms of what time were the men going to practice basketball and what time are the women? They finally came up with, Okay. This week you practice at three and we will practice at six and that sort of stuff, which is now all routine. It just took a while. What about dining services? Did you have to alter the food that was served? We certainly did a lot of menu things and we got smarter there. We always had women in management roles. When I was an undergraduate, the director was a woman. Jeannette Gill. I donʼt know if that name means anything to you. Jeannette Gill was one of the senior women Marine Corps officers in World War II. She was chief of food services for the Marines or something like that. Her assistant was Catherine Carr [Catherine M. Carr]. As a matter of fact, they were all women, because I worked under that for four years. Miss Gill I mean she was a Marine. [Laughter] She really ran the place. She had iron pants. So we always had a dietitian or two dietitians, so the transition to women eating in Thayer Hall wasnʼt that difficult in terms of the food. The problem became, they didnʼt want a 21-meal contract. They didnʼt want to pay for a 21-meal contract. They didnʼt eat three meals a day in the dining hall or, if they did, all they wanted was a yogurt or a salad for lunch. So we then gradually evolved Then the Hopkins Center snack bar evolved into something they liked. Then Collis came along and we built the addition on the back. That was one of the major projects. We built another dining hall, which is called West Side now, I think. Again, I think all of that evolved and then we went to an option of either 14 or 21-meal contract. 21

Now, of course, itʼs a Well, I donʼt know exactly what it is today, but I think itʼs a dollar amount now that you can use and you have some options on that and you can use them wherever you use it. Then we got into the question, Well, what if we didnʼt use it up? Will we refund it? No. We wonʼt refund it. Then we got to the point, All right. We will roll it over. I mean it just sort of evolved in terms of And there were committees and groups. I can remember Mr. Dickey speaking at one of my reunions saying that the only thing that changes worse or slower than the Catholic church is colleges and universities, and that is sort of the way that it is. You know, you probably knew the answer here, but it took you You had to get there and thatʼs of course That was one of President McLaughlinʼs problems. Why are universities so slow to change? Well, because you have to build consensus and everybody sort of has to buy in. If you donʼt buy in, youʼve got people so I mean I can remember saying No to so many things and, two years later, I didnʼt say No to those things anymore. You know you would You were just tired, tired of doing that. Food contracts were a good thing. I can remember sitting with student after student saying, Sorry. This is the way the contract is. Unless you get a letter from Then they would go to the dean. Unless you get a doctorʼs letter. Then they would go to the dean. Well the dean got tired of dealing with all of that you know. What were the students asking for? Well they wanted to get out of their contract. They were living off campus. They didnʼt want And we had everybody. You know, everybody had a 21-meal contract or a 21 and 14. Board, room and tuition and that was it. That was the budget. Well, Iʼm living off campus. I donʼt have the money. Iʼve got three jobs. I have to have a special diet. You could just predict. So we finally mellowed on all those things and changed and built the costs into the budget and grew. So I think thatʼs what happened with the women. It just evolved and, you know, we finally Well, I guess we are not going to build new residence halls for a while. [Laughter] We finally took more and more 22

rooms to build lounges, to build kitchens and that sort of thing, which we never just thought about. How did you This maybe sounds like too simple a question, but what was the effect on campus of having women here, I mean besides the obvious? Not just women. I mean there was increased diversity in other ways as well. You mentioned President Kemenyʼs efforts to increase the enrollments of Native Americans as well. Certainly minorities Blacks and foreign students. Certainly to me in my job, it wasnʼt that evident. I mean we had to deal with the individual groups that evolved out End Tape 1, Side B Begin Tape 2, Side A Okay. So we were talking about the diversity on campus. And, of course, even the women I think the most difficult thing that my office got involved in was the housing issues that came out of this. The women wanting sorority houses; the Native Americans wanting their own building; the Afro-Americans wanting their own building; the Asian students wanting their own building; the women wanting more space in dormitories or residence hall for social events. The pressure on programming to take the burden off fraternities or just depending on fraternities. So we had a lot of -- and I guess still today probably -- a lot of pressure to try to satisfy all of these needs. That was slow progress because we didnʼt have any place to put them. I mean short of doing away with fraternities, you had to just wait for them one at a time to sort of kill off themselves, like my fraternity Beta Theta Pi, which is now a womenʼs sorority. Then houses became available. As they became available, some of them werenʼt adequate because the students wanted to live there. Fire and Skoal. I mean all these new things that popped up These honor societies Yeah. So there was more on that than anything else I think. Then eventually from the business managerʼs end of it, and by that time I was called director of business affairs 23

This was under Kemeny? No. I think that started with McLaughlin because he undid a lot of things. Eventually we split off student housing. Thatʼs when they created residential life and all of the programming and resident tutors and that sort of thing that more appropriately would be under the dean. So thatʼs where I think there was more pressure from my standpoint. But again those changes sort of evolved. They sort of happened. With all of these new opportunities for students to live other than in the dorms, how did you keep it all straight? Keeping the dorms filled, knowing where these kids were going to end up? Well, gradually we were taking some rooms away from the dorms, so we had less dorm rooms that we had to start with. We might have had 2,900 and then all of a sudden we had 2,700 because we were building common areas, kitchens; so we lost rooms. But that problem became exacerbated because, at one point we had like 500 students off campus and we used to inspect where they lived and tell them they could stay there or they had to move or tell the landlords, You have got to do this. You have got to do that. A lot of things become reactive it seemed to me in higher education. If in a dorm fire at Columbia, three are killed, all of a sudden we look at, Do we have sprinklers in every dorm? because they didnʼt have the one down there. We put rope ladders in dormitory rooms at one point before we ever had fire escapes. We didnʼt have every dorm sprinklered. The fraternities werenʼt sprinklered. All of those things so we kept chipping away at all of that, because it all takes money. Letʼs see. Where was I? You are trying to keep the dorms filled. Yeah. So we had like 500 students off campus and that got cut down to 250 once we went into this inspection mode. Under what mandate could you go out into the community and inspect private property? Well I guess if we could tell our students where they would live. It just was a different era and landlords had to register with us. 24

Really? We had forms they had to fill out. So you really were in loco parentis. William Crooker [William I. Crooker] was the director of student housing then and he had been director of student housing at Brown and he came to Dartmouth. Mr. Olmsted hired him prior to He was here when I came here and he would do that inspecting. He would come back and he would fill out the report. He would say, There is no fire escape here or there is heating with kerosene or there are extension cords all over the place. You know, just stuff like that. We would say, Clean up the act. Some landlords would say, Well, to heck with that. That would cost us too much. We will just rent to somebody else. So obviously the housing thing was an issue. I mean there wasnʼt any doubt about it. Of course the issue every year was who was going to live in the Choate dorms and who was going to live in the Wigwam dorms, as we called them then. The priority system and who gets first priority and how you select rooms. You know, that would get tinkered with every year. Finally that problem got handed over to the deanʼs office. I donʼt know exactly how they do it these days. Because you wanted a cross-section of rooms for the freshmen all over campus. You wanted freshmen in every dorm. So that means that, if you do the pecking order, the seniors get the first choice. Well, first you select the rooms for the freshmen and you just say, This is where the freshmen are going to live. Then the seniors get the first choice and then the juniors. Then you get sophomores who had good rooms as freshmen down at the River Cluster or the Choate dorms, they get the bottom of the heap and then they are upset. Then they move up. So that has been a major issue I think ever since we went to a freshman class of 1,100. Thatʼs one of the reasons they want the new dorms, so that they can have more parity in the type of dorms. You must have been glad to get rid of the dormitory piece. 25

Yeah, because my shop wasnʼt really geared to take care of that. I suppose we could have gone out and hired the people; but the deanʼs function is more appropriate for that. Now they have actually moved dining under the dean. When I was there and I used to go to Ivy League meetings, that was the pattern in probably half the places. Half the schools had dining and housing under the dean; half had it under the business. You know, is it a business or is it more appropriately a deanʼs thing? I guess it is more appropriate that deans would Todayʼs things you do with students. All the counseling you do and all of that. I mean we never had counselors when I was an undergraduate as I recall. At least I never knew we had one. We had an infirmary, which we still have Dickʼs House. As I said, you never went near Parkhurst or a dean or you were in real trouble whereas now, of course, deans are your friends and they have class deans and all this sort of stuff. They have the whole student programming, student Do you know Linda Kennedy by any chance? She is the director of student activities. Thatʼs my oldest daughter, so I can keep up with Dartmouth. Ah hah! You keep up with all the Dartmouth news. Yeah. Right. One topic we havenʼt covered was during the ʻ70s, during Kemenyʼs time, the oil crisis. I assume that had to have an impact on your That was a major issue. We did a lot quickly with a lot of support from the board of trustees in terms of money. That was really a joint effort. Mr. Olmsted was highly involved with the heating plant aspect of that. Heʼs an engineer, a Thayer School graduate. We studied on the heating plant of going to wood chips and we did a lot of work on that. At one point, we had a major study going on using electric diesel engines. This got brought to us by Rodman Rockefeller [Rodman C. Rockefeller '54], Nelson Rockefellerʼs son, class of ʼ54. He had a company called Thermal Electron of Waltham, Massachusetts. They came to Dartmouth with a proposition that 26