The history of Zaire as told and painted by Tshibumba Kanda Matulu in conversation with Johannes Fabian

1 sur 38 05.02.2006 0:28 Archives of Popular Swahili logo to the LPCA home page ISSN: 1570-0178 Volume 2, Issue 2 (11 November 1998) to the APS home page The history of Zaire as told and painted by Tshibumba Kanda Matulu in conversation with Johannes Fabian Introduction First Session, Part 1 First Session, Part 2 Second Session, Part 1 Second Session, Part 2 Third Session,

2 sur 38 05.02.2006 0:28 Part 1 Third Session, Part 2 Fourth Session First Session, Part 1 TSHIBUMBA, HISTOIRE DU ZAIRE First Session of October 6, 1974 1. mm/ kama uko tayari: tunaweza kwanza na: na: T: na adisi/ F: na adisi/ sawa vile unasema:...?...adisi: T: bon: sawa vile niko tayari: bon: F: arisi njo: T: njo adisi [laughs]/ bon/ nazania nita: nitaanza juu ya ku: c'est à dire niko na: nitacommenter c'est à dire eh? T: bon/ nitakuanzia kama si adisi directement: naanza kuelezea vile mambo: ilikuwa zamani/ 2. mutu mweusi: alikuwa tangu Adam na Eva/ T: bila kufwata adisi ya: ya dini: sawa vile katolika: protestant ou bien bakimbangu: ilikuwa vile Zaire yetu: ilikuwa tangu zamani/ na wankambo yetu/ ni sawa vile unabaona pale: bale bankambo yetu [Painting 1: Landscape]/ nao: walijua: kuvwala/ walikuwa na maliba/ sawa vile unaona hapa: pa tableau [Painting 2: Ancestral Couple]/ walijua kutumika/ ni bale beko natumika pa maji kutosha samaki: njo vile kwa Katanga: banaanza kufanya mukuba ile wakati: kutosha mukuba: kufanya nsambo 1 : kwenda kuuzisha: walijua kula: kumanger/ TSHIBUMBA, HISTOIRE DU ZAIRE First Session of October 6, 1974 1. Mm-hmm, if you are ready we begin with... T:...with the story. F: With the story. As you said...?... the story... T:...alright, since I am ready: F: The story is this. T: This is the story [laughs]. Alright, I guess I'll begin [to talk] about -- that is to say I'll comment [on the paintings], right? F: Yes. T: Alright, although I am not going to give you a story right away I'll begin by explaining how things used to be in the past. 2. T: The black man existed since Adam and Eve. T: Mm-hmm. T: Without following the story of a religion, be it Catholic, Protestant, or Kimbanguist, this is how our Zaire existed since the days of old. And [there were] our ancestors as you see them there [Painting 1: Landscape], our ancestors. They knew how to dress. They had raffia clothes, as you see here on the painting [Painting 2: Ancestral couple]. They knew how to work. Those people by the water are working to catch fish, and in Katanga they began to make copper ingots in those times. They produced copper ingots, made copper wire, and went to sell it.

3 sur 38 05.02.2006 0:28 T: aah/ banaanza ku: balikuwa na muhoko: balikuwa napika bukari: ilikuwa chakula yetu/ balijua kujenga/ sawa vile unaona banayenga pale nyumba: T: ilikuwa banajenga kwa majani juu: wala chini bataweza kuyenga majani: wala wataweza kuweka miti: banafunga muzuri: banaweka budongo: allez: banalala ndani kule/ na kujiongoza/ balijua kujigouverner/ T: c'est à dire balikuwa na gouvernement [Painting 3: Traditional Chief]/ par example Banza Kongo: mm? T: balikuwa na gouvernement muzima/ T: aah/ vile banongo Lutete: bote balikuwa magouvernements/ mais habakujiunga pamoya ba kufanya unité: balikuya: balifanya fédération/ mm? 3. bon/ turudie ku adisi: histoire sainte: eh? adisi ya Mungu/ inasema: yakuwa: watu tatu/ les trois mages [Painting 4: The Three Magi]/ mm? balikwendaka kumuabudu: Yesu/ T: mm? katika yao: palikuwa katikati yabo: palikuwa muntu mweusi/ wa mu Afrique/ c'est que muntu mweusi alianza tangu zamani/ nayee vilevile/ histoire sainte inatufundisha tena: yakuwa: baba moja alikuwa na watoto: mbili/ katika watoto wa wale mbili: kulikuwa moja alikosaka/ kwa kusema ingine banasema kule muntu mweusi alitokea/ bale batoto bale balikosaka: et puis: ni baba yake alikunywaka mingi/ T: mais jina mi sijue/ eh? T: ule mutoto pale alikunywa pombe mingi: allez: baba yake pale alikunywa pombe mingi: pardon: T: alikwenda analala mu nyumba: bunji/ bila manguo/ They knew how to eat, to dine. 1 T: Yes. They began to 2, they had manioc and they cooked bukari 3. This was our food. They knew how to build. As you see, there they built houses. T: The way it was, when they built they used leaves on top and on the ground. Or they would take boughs, join them well, put clay on it and there you are, they slept in there. And to lead themselves, they knew how to govern themselves. T: In other words, they had government [Painting 3: Traditional Chief]. For example, Banza Kongo, mm? T: They had a complete government. T: Yes, people like Ngongo Lutete, all of them were governments. Only, they had not joined forces to create unity. They set up a federation, you understand?. 3. Alright, let's go back to the story, the sacred scriptures 4, right? The story of God. It says there were three people, the three wise men, you understand? They went to adore Jesus [Painting 4: The Three Magi]. T: Your understand? Among them, in their midst there was a black man, someone from Africa. That means that the black man, too, had his origin in the days of old. The sacred scriptures also teach us that there was a father who had two children. Of those two children, there was one who had sinned. That is, some say this is where the black man came from. It was the [black] child 5 who had sinned. So, their father used to drink a lot. T: But his name I don't know, right? T: Once, when this child had drunk a lot of beer, sorry, when his

4 sur 38 05.02.2006 0:28 F: aah/ T: bon/ sasa kulikuwa mutoto yake moja: alikuya anafungula mulango/ anaangaria baba yake: oooh baba iko bunji/ anakimbia inje anakwenda kuita nduku yake ungine/ kutoka kuita nduku ungine: anarudia naye/ sema kuya one/ nduku yake anakuya anafungula mulango: anaangaria: baba yake iko bunji/ asema: tiens: pourquoi anafanya vile? T: ule mutoto alikimbia mbio: alikwenda kubeba: nguo/ akuwe kumufunyika baba yake/ hakumufunyika kama alimuangaria: alianza kurudia ku mukongo/ anakwenda namufunyika baba yake/ T: na baba yake alilamuka/ njo vile histoire sainte inasema/ T: baba yake kulamuka: hakukuwa mulevi alifanya kusudi 2 / na aliona kama mutoto yake ule ungine: alikuwa na akili pa kuweza kwenda kumufunyika/ na aliita ule mutoto ungine: wa kwanza: alimuelezea/ weye: kwanzia leo: minazania: siwezi nakukatala kuwa mutoto yangu hapana/ T: mais utakuwa mutoto yangu/ mais/ utazala/ batoto yako bote beushi/ na tena: habatakuya hata moja na akili/ T: batakuwa batoto/tupu/ na batabakia bamaskini: mpaka kufa/ njo vile histoire sainte inasema/ alafu kwa kuona mi kwangu miye: sawa vile minakuambia: niko écrivain: T: minaona kama ni bongo/ ni bongo juu ya nini? sababu minazania wakati ya Bwana Yesu: eh? T: muntu mweusi alikuyako: mbele ya ile adisi: les trois Mages/ T: aah/ nazania balikuwa babalthasar: naaaa: na: Merkio: na ule ungine minazani nasahabu jina eh? T: bon/?unaona mutu mweshi alikuyako/ bon/ eeh/ baba father had drunk a lot of beer. T: He went to sleep in the house, naked, without any clothes. F: I see. T: Alright. Now there was this one child of his who came and opened the door. He looked at his father: "Oh, [he said] father is naked." He ran outside to call his brother. He called his brother and came back with him. He said: "Come and see." His brother came and opened the door. He looked: His father was naked. He said: "I don't understand, why does he act this way?" T: This child ran away quickly and went to bring some clothes to cover his father. The way he did it was not by looking at him, he returned walking backwards. [This is how] he went to cover his father. T: And his father woke up. This is how the sacred scriptures report it. T: His father woke up, he was no longer drunk, he felt dizzy, and he saw that this other child of had had the presence of mind to cover him [without looking]. And he summoned this other child of his, the first-born 6 and explained to him: "You, from this day on, I don't think I can deny that you are my child." T: "No, you are going to remain my child. But all the children you will engender are going to be black. Furthermore, not one of them will be intelligent." T: "They will be children without value. And they will always be poor until they die." This is how the sacred scriptures put it. But the way I myself see it -- as I told you, I am a writer. T: In my view this is a lie. Why is it a lie? Because I think that in the time of the Lord Jesus, right?...

5 sur 38 05.02.2006 0:28 président Mobutu: eh? T: alisema: le quatre octrobre dix-neuf cent septante-trois ku l'onu: ya kama: je cite: eh? le recours à l'authenticité n'est pas un nationalisme étroit/ un retour aveugle au passé/ bon: alisema vile/ kwa mimi nalijiona kama: kuona kwangu: ni kweli kwa sababu adisi ya muntu mweusi mwenyewe minakuelezea eh? T: ilipotea tangu: tangu/ mi minakamata mi tangu: bale ba trois mages/ kwa sababu ule mutu wa: pa bantu mweu: pa: pa bale bantu tatu: alikuwa muntu mweusi/ hakurudiaka/ balimuuaka: alipoteaka/ na leo hakuwezaka hata kurudia/ nazania na adisi ya muntu mweushi paka pale: ilipotea: T: njo pale tulianza kufwata sawa mambo ya kusema: ooh ni ule baba ali: lalaka mu nyumba: ooh: hapana/ ni pa ile wakati adisi ya muntu mweushi ilipotea/ 4. bon/ ilikuwa vile sawa nikuonyesha tableaux ya kwanza kama tulikuwa na bankambo yetu: balijua kuvwala: T: eeh? balijua kuvwala: balijua kusumbulia: balizi: balijua kuzala: balijua kujigouverner/ angaria...?... F: ya tatu/ T: ah oui: voilà/ F: ya tatu: T: ahah/ na hapa unaona iko na mugini muzima/ na bantu yake: mia moya/ F: hii ya tatu? T: alikuwa chefu vilevile/ mais: naonyesha kwa mawazo/ na sikutaya T:...before 7 that story of the three wise men, the black man was already there. T: Ah, I think they were Balthasar 8 and, and Melchior, and another one, I guess I forgot the name, right? T: Alright, so the black man was already there. So. Baba 9 President Mobutu, right? T: He said on October 10, 1973, at the United Nations -- may I quote? -- "Recourse to Authenticity is not a narrow nationalism, a blind return to the past." Alright, this is how he spoke. On reflection -- the way I see it -- this is true. Because it is the story of the black man himself which I am explaining to you, right? T: He was lost long, long ago. I took my departure with those three wise man because this person among those three men was a black man. He did not return. They killed him and he perished. Up to this day, he cannot come back. I believe this is the story of the black man right there, it was lost. T: It was then that we followed things like [the story of] the man who was asleep in his house, and what not. No, it was at that moment that the story of the black man was lost. 4. Alright, things were as I showed you in the first paintings. We had our ancestors who knew how to dress. T: Right? They knew how to dress, they knew how to converse, they knew how to have children, they knew how to govern themselves. Look at...?... F: The third one. 10 T: Yes, there you are. F: The third one. T: Yes, and here you see a whole village and its people, one hundred of them. F: [And who is] this third one?

6 sur 38 05.02.2006 0:28 jina yake kwa sababu: recours à l'authenticité [chuckles] sawa minakueleza mara ingine eh? T: eh/ tuko naru: tuko: tuko eh: c'est un retour aveugle au passé/ c'est que hatukujua ile tena wankambo:?tutaisha kupoteza ile akili/ 5. bon/ nakuwa kufika sasa wakati: adisi ya Congo: inaanza/ mm/ T: alafu ilikuwa Zaire ile wakati nazania [Painting 5: Diogo Cão and the King of Kongo]/ F: tunaona tu/ T: eeh/ ni kusema Zaire yetu ili: ilikuwaka/ na maroyaumes/ c'est que she tulipoteza na kinywa yetu eh? hata kiswahili tuko nasema minazania hakina kinywa ya batu mweusi/ ni kinywa ya baarabu/ F: Swahili? T: Swahili ni kinywa ya waarabu/ inafika hapa: kwa waarabu waliingia: tunaanza: kusumbulia/ sawa Tshiluba: ni kinywa ya bamissionnaires/ T: babeupe/ balileta ile kinywa kule/ T: KiKongo iko kinatoka na ku Portu: nani: ku Portugais eh? ba: ku Portugal: pardon/ T: aah/ minajua akili/ njo balileta ile kinywa: njo tunaanza kusikilizana/ sawa tunakuwa na Français: inakuya nani: kinywa ya: batu bote/ 6. bon/ eh/ ilik: tulikuwa na maroyaumes mingi/ kwa ile: nafahamu: royaume du Congo: par example: royaume batelela: et bakete: royaume de baluba: na maroyaumes ingine mingi/ ku jito Zaire: F: utaweza kuita ingine? T: hapana/ minasinda sawa minafahamu ile eh/ na ingine mingi sawa vile minakuelezea/ ku jito T: He was also a chief. But I show [him] as I have thought [him] up and I don't give his name because recourse to authenticity -- as I already explained to you [chuckles] 11, right? T: We go [back] -- it is a blind return to the past. The thing is, we don't know the ancestors any more, we have lost that knowledge. 5. Right, Now I am getting to the time when the story of the Congo begins. F: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. T: But I believe it was Zaire in those times [Painting 5: Diogo Cão and the King of Kongo]. F: We see: T: Yes, that is to say, our Zaire existed and [it had] kingdoms. Only we lost [the word] in our language, right? Even the Swahili we speak, I believe, is not a language of the black people. It is the language of the Arabs. F: Swahili? T: Swahili is the language of the Arabs. It arrived here through the Arabs who invaded [the country] and we began to talk in it. Like Tshiluba, which is a language of the Missionaries. T: The white ones. They brought this language there. T: Kikongo came from the Portuguese, right? Sorry, from Portugal. T: Yes, I am aware of this. They brought this language and this is how we began to understand each other. Like we have French which became the language shared by all the people. 6. Alright. Now, we had many kingdoms. Among them I know the kingdom of Kongo, for instance, the Tetela kingdom, that of the Kete, the kingdom of the Luba, and many other kingdoms. On the river Zaire... F:... can you name other [kingdoms]? T: No, I can't, as I only know these. There were many others, as

7 sur 38 05.02.2006 0:28 Zaire: ilikuwa Nzadi/ njo jina yake: Nzadi/ kulikuwa sultani moja/ jina yake: Banza Kongo/ T: ni ule unaona pale pa tableau/ alimupokea: siku moja: mm? T: explorateur Portugais/ Diego Cao/ na nkundi yake: na watu wake: weusi walitoka nao ku Angola/ wale watu walikuwa wa Malange/ F: Malange? T: Malange/ sasa wale watu: nazania wanapatikana mu Kananga/ mu Luluabourg/ ya zamani/ na wale watu: hawana wakasai ya: bale bakasai bale/ habana bakasai ya: ya Kananga: hapana/ ni ba: Angolais/ bale balitokaka na: Diego Cao/ banaanza kuita bamalange/ et puis pale balifika mu mukini na kuzala mule: sasa banaanza kubaita sasa na sasa tuko nabaita shee: Malandi/ njo banakamata ile mugini banaleta asema kama Malandi/ wa Nshinga/ F:...?... 3 T: maneno jina: Malandi wa Nshinga/ T: bon/ ile: jina Malandi wa Nshinga: inatoka ku: Malange: bale bantu balitoka mu Angola/ njo balikuwa kukala mu ile inchi: na sasa banazalana: balipoteaka kwabo/ ni bale batu balikuwaka na: Diego Cao/ F: na Malandi: Malandi: njo fasi? njo mugini? T: ma: oui: Malandi wa Nshinga: Kananga/ njo mukini/ F: ah: ni jina ya Kananga? T: ah: Kananga/ njo maana yake: Malandi wa Nshinga: Kananga/ F: aah/ T: bon: bale bantu bengine banapatikana mule banayenga ile mukini: ni ba: ni ba: Angolais/ bale balitokaka nabo kuko: baexplorateurs: sawa vile Diego Cao: kufika nabo humu/ F: nsinga njo nini? T: ni téléphone/ kwa sababu ile mugini moya: iningia: téléphone mbele ya wakati/ F: Kananga/ T: sawa ku Mbuji Mayi: ou bien kipande yote Kabinda kule: ah: ku nani: ku Lodja: na ku fasi ya I explained to you. On the river Zaire -- it used to be Nzadi, that was its name, Nzadi -- there was a chief, his name was Banza Kongo. T: He is the one you see there on the painting. One day, right? He received him one day, right? T: He received the Portuguese explorer Diogo Cao and his party, and the black people with whom they had set off from Angola. These people were from Malange. F: Malange? T: Malange. Now, these people, I believe, are now found in Kananga, in Luluabourg, as it used to be called. And these people don't come from the Kasai, they are not Kasaians like those from Kananga. They are Angolans, they came from there with Diogo Cao. People began to call them Malange. And then when they settled there in a village and had children, people gave them a name and now we call them Malandi. This village was given the name Malandi wa Nshinga. F:...?... 12 T: Because the name is Malandi wa Nshinga. F: Mm. T: Alright, so this name Malandi wa Nshinga come from Malange, the people who came from Angola. They came to settle in this country and they had children among each other and forgot their home country. They are the people who were with Diogo Cao. F: Malandi, Malandi, is that a place? Is it a village? T: Yes, Malandi wa Nshinga, Kananga. It's a village. F: Ah, so it is a name for Kananga? T: Yes, for [a part of] Kananga. That is its meaning, Malandi wa Nshinga, Kananga. F: Ah. T: Right, so some people you find there and who built this village are Angolans. They took off from there with explorers like Diogo Cao. Together with them they arrived here. F: What does nsinga mean? T: It is the telephone. Because in

8 sur 38 05.02.2006 0:28 Lusambo hakukuye téléphone/ téléphone iliingia mara ya kwanza: ku Kananga/ T: sasa: bantu baliita kama: Malandi: wa Nshinga/ sawa vile Malandi wa Nshinga: njo kusema ni bale bamalange bale balikuya mule: banazalana: bana: kubaita sasa: ma: bamalandi/ sawa Malandiens tout court/ F: [chuckles] 7. T: [chuckles] eeh/ bon/ alimupokelea: Diego Cao: F: njo huyu? T: eh: na batu: na batu yake: sawa balikuwaka nabo: akawaelezea jina ya: ya fleuve: yakuwa ni Nzadi/ T: kwa kuita kwake: Diego Cao: kuita kwa Diego Cao: aliita kama: Zaire/ bon: abakusilikizane asema oui: ni: Nzadi/ nayee alisema kama Zaire/ aliandika mu buku yake kama nalivumbula motoni: Zaire/ kiisha aliwa: fatilia abari ya wa: Arabu/ na masultani wengine: wale walipenda kuuzisha ndugu zao/ kiisha alikala: anaanza kubaelezea mufano gani baarabu beko mu: mu: mu Congo Central: c'est à dire katikati ya Congo/ T: beko nateswa: banduku yabo: ba: na kuua bantu ku migini: na kuuzisha bengine/ na bale batu wanasaidiwa tena paka kuko: banduku yetu/ na hakuna mufano ya kusikilizana hapana/ kama alikuwa mufano ya kusikilizana: kama tunaofahamu/ Diego Cao: alirudia: kwao: na nkundi yake: alirudia kwao/ T: bon/ alikuta déjà pale alikuta kulikuwa civilisation: ya bazairois/ c'est à dire civilisation zairoise/ ilianza kuexister kwa Banza Kongo/ nayee ali: aliétonner: alisangaa/ siku kidogo Diego Cao alirudia: na nkundi yake: iliingia katikati ya Zaire/ Diego Cao alirudia kwao/ this particular village the telephone was introduced before [it came to other places]. F: In Kananga. T: Like in Mbuji Mayi, or in the whole Kabinda region there, or in Lodja, and in Lusambo there was not telephone yet. The telephone was first introduced to Kananga. T: So people came up with the name Malandi wa Nshinga. Malandi wa Nshinga refers to those Malange who settled there, had children among each other, and now they call them Malandi. Malandians, for short. F: [chuckles] 7. T: [Chuckles] Well, alright. He received Diogo Cao. F: Is that the one? T: Yes, and the people who were with his party. [Banza Kongo] informed them of the name of the river. [The name] was Nzadi. T: Diogo Cao himself called it Zaire. They did not understand each other and [when Banza Kongo said it is Nzadi] they said, yes, it is Zaire. [Diogo Cao] pronounced it Zaire. He wrote in his book, "I discovered the river Zaire." Then [Banza Kongo] informed them about the Arabs and about those other chiefs who liked to sell their brothers. He took his time about this and began to explain to them how the Arabs behaved in the interior of the Congo. T: They made their brothers suffer, killing people in the villages and selling others. And the people who helped them were our brothers. And there was no way to understand each other. Had there been one, we would know of it. Diogo Cao returned home and so did his party. T: Alright, so already at that time he found that there was a Zairean civilization. That is to say, the Zairean civilization began to exist with Banza Kongo. And he was astonished; he was amazed. Not much later, Diogo Cao

9 sur 38 05.02.2006 0:28 ile nkundi alikuwa naye: ni badhanis: sawa minafahamu ule: na bengine: baliingia ndani ya: Congo/ kusema tuvumbule sasa: inchi yote: tujue mifano ii/ 8. alafu: unasema: Banza: T: Kongo/ F: Kongo: na bengine balikuwa na civilisation/ civilisation njo nini? T: civilisation? T: c'est que ni: tuko; ni authenticité/ ni kula kwake: kuwvaa kwake/ kuikala kwake/ na kujenga kwake tuseme/ T: kujenga kwake/ ni vile civilisation/ na kunywa kwake: tu [?tout] ilikuwa: civilisation/ sawa balianza kunywa mu kale ka: ka: kibuyu ka wankambo/ T: ni kake alianza kunywa/ mm?/ 9. bon/ nazani nafika pale: F: sasa: oui: minaona uliandika: ni mu tableau hapa/ T: [reads] Diego Cao et le roi du Congo: bon/ ni kusema Diego Cao na roi wa Congo/ ali: yeye anauliza/ oui: c'est le fleuve Nzadi/ Zaire/ a dit Banza Kongo/ après quelques jours: fût la rencontre Stanley: et le groupe de Diego Cao: qui était composé de Dhanis: Bodson: et les autres/ ni ile itaendelea juu ya...?... T: nitaelezea/ bon/ ile nazania: inamalizika/ F: inamalizika: tunaona tu: motoni hapa: T: bon: motoni: sawa: naelezea nakuelezea mambo mingi juu ya ile: tableau: F: oui/ T: ile yote tunasumbulia/ F: tutaweza kurudia ku: ku mwisho/ tutarudia ku: ku matableaux: returned and his party penetrated the interior of Zaire. Diogo Cao went back home [to Portugal]. In the party that was with him there was a certain Dhanis, he is one I know of, and others, and they got into the interior of the Congo. "Let us discover the whole country now," they said, "so that we know what it is like." 8. But you said that Banza... T:...Kongo... F:...Kongo and others had civilization. What is civilization? T: Civilization? T: It's that we have -- it is authenticity. [It means that someone] is at home when he eats, dresses, lives, and builds. T: To build one's home, that is what civilization is like. And to drink at home, all that was civilization. Like in the beginning they drank from this small gourd the ancestors used to have. T: That's were they first drank from, right? 9. Alright, I think now I got to the point where... F:...Now, yes, I see that you wrote something on the picture here. T: [reads] 'Diogo Cao et le roi du Congo.' Alright, that is to say, Diogo Cao and the king of the Congo. He [Cao] asked; Banza said, "Yes, this is the river Nzadi, Zaire." [Continues reading] "After a few days there was the meeting between Stanley and Diogo Cao's group, which consisted of Dhanis, Bodson, and the others." It is the [group] that is going to continue about...?... T: I am going to explain. Alright, I believe [what I have to say about this painting] is finished. F: That is all. What we see there is the river. T: Alright, the river. [But this is enough] because I explained

10 sur 38 05.02.2006 0:28 T: aah/ F: na utaweza kunielezea madetails/ T: madetails/ F: sasa tu: tufwate tu/ T: bon/ F: sawa vile unataka/ T: bon/ bon/ F: kama unataka ku: T: non: tuanze tu: F: kusumbulia juu ya: ya madetails: T: aah/ F: unielezee/ kama unataka turudie: enfin: T: detail: par example minazania: bon tutarudia ma: tutarudia mara ingine eh? T: ah bon/ ou bien kama uko na mambo: na mambo ya kuuliza: unaniuliza: minakujibu: yote: F: nikamate ingine? T: bon kamate sasa ingine/ 10. bon/ ngambo ya Katanga: Livingstone alikutanishana: na watu: wa Katanga [Painting 6: Livingstone in Katanga]/ na mizigo: ya mukuba/ kutokea nayo ku Katanga/ kwenda kuuzisha mbali/ naye alisagaa: kwa kuona mara ya kwanza: muntu wa namna: wasiyo namna yake: rangi yake: mais: nayee njo eko anaenda kutafuta: mais anaona: na ile mukuba: na mansambo: na bintu ingine: na charette beko nasukuma: beko banakwenda wapi: ku: kuuzisha ile: mukuba/ aliwauliza/ hawakuweza kusikilizana/ kwa lugha/ habakusikilizanaka kwa kinywa: sababu kabila ya huyu: na kabila ya huyu iliachana/ huyu anasema kyakwabo: anasema kyakwabo: banashinda kusikilizana pale/ T: bon/ alimuonyesha: mukuba: alitaja jina ya chef Katanga/ nayee Livingstone: aliandika ndani ya buku yake/ na Livingstone alienda zake: akipitia kwa njia: ya Lac Moero: na: alifika Nguba: akakuta watu weusi: weko nafanya this painting to you at length. F: Yes. T: We talked about all this. F: We can get back to it at the end, when we take the pictures again [one by one]. T: Ah. F: And then you can explain detail to me. T: Detail. F: Now let's continue. T: Alright. F: It depends on what you want. T: Alright, alright. F: If you want to... T:... no, let's just start... F: talk now about detail. T: Yes. F: Then tell me. If you want us to go back [to the story], well... T: Regarding detail, I believe, we'll get back to this some other time, right? T: Very well, unless you have something to ask, then ask me, I'll answer everything. F: Shall I take up another [painting]? T: Alright, take up another one. 10. Fine, in the region of Katanga, Livingstone got to meet people from Katanga [Painting 6: Livingstone in Katanga]. They had come with a shipment of copper ingots from Katanga and were going to sell it in faraway places. And he was amazed to see for the first time a human being different from himself, with a color other than his. But, after all, he had set out to search [for wealth] and so he saw the copper ingots and the copper wire and other things on the cart they were pushing. "Where are they going [he thought] to sell that copper?" He asked them, but they simply had no language in which to communicate. They belonged to different peoples; one spoke the language of his home country, the other his, and so they failed to understand each other. T: Alright. [Someone] showed [Livingstone] the copper and pronounced the name of chief Katanga. And Livingstone wrote it

11 sur 38 05.02.2006 0:28 chumvi/ nakafika Mulungwishi/ kwenyewe: aliendelea: na kufundisha dini: ya kiprotestant/ basi: alichoka: na akapumuzika/ T: ni tableau ile/ T: ahah/ 11. [Picks up Painting 7: Stanley's Arrival] na kwa wakati ule eh? ungine explo: explorateur/ explorateur: mm? ba jina ya Stanley: aliweza kutoka Belgique/ na kufika Angola/ alizidi kuendelea/ mpaka: Zaire/ Katanga/ akafika pa mugini moja: aliona watu/ nao walikimbia/ wote porini/ hakuweza kufanya kitu hata moja/ alichoka: na alirudia pa Belgique/ sababu sawa vile alitembeaka: alitoka mbali ku Belgique: T: Stanley ni Portugais/ mais sawa vile: F: yee ni Portugais? T: ni Portugais Stanley/ sawa vile baba yake na mama yake walikufwaka: hakukuwa na muntu ya kuenea kumuchunga: alitokaka tu mutoto kidogo sana/ nakwenda tu pote: sawa ku mashua la maji: matelot par example: na bamatelots bale: banakafukuza: paka vile: ku chance yake: alipata kufika ku Belgique/ alikuya balimuweka ku nyumba ya: ba: ya batoto wa maskini/ T: bon/ kule: alikomea: na alikuwa muntu wa akili/ voilà: siku kidogo: alipatana na: le roi Léopold deux: T: ni ule alimusemaka kumbe kama uko na nguvu: T: eeh: kama uko na nguvu: F: eh kale ka? [interruption] T: ah: kama uko na nguvu: T: wende mu: mu Afrique/ ukavumbula na wee ujue: fasi ya bale batu: tunasikia kama batu down in his book. And Livingstone continued his travels; on his way he passed Lake Moero and came to Nguba, where he met black people who were producing salt. The he arrived in Mulungwishi, and that is where he continued to teach the Protestant religion. Finally, he got tired and rested. T: That is [what I have to tell about] this painting. T: Yes. 11. [Picks up Painting 7: Stanley's Arrival] And at that time -- you understand? -- another explorer by name of Stanley managed to leave Belgium and arrive in Angola. From there, he went on to Zaire and Katanga. Whenever he came to a village and saw people, they all fled into the bush. There was nothing he could do. He got tired and went back to Belgium. Because [he was dissatisfied with] the way his trip went; after all he had come far away from Belgium. T: Stanley was Portuguese. However, since... F:... he was Portuguese? F: He was Portuguese, Stanley was. Because his father and his mother had died and he had no one to take care of him, he left [home] at a very early age and traveled all over the place, for instance, as a sailor on ships, but the sailors chased him away. 13 Then he had the good fortune to get to Belgium, where they put him into an orphanage. T: Alright. There he grew up to become an intelligent person. And there you are, soon he met with King Leopold II. T: He was the one who told [Stanley]: "If you have the strength." T: Yes, "If you have the strength... F: [interruption]...it's this little... 14

12 sur 38 05.02.2006 0:28 banavivre/ na ku kwanza kuita bantu balisema kama: bale batu: beko na mikila/ iko sawa macaques? hatujue kama ni batu gani? T: eeh/ shee tunaona: tunasikia kama ni: vile/ kumbe: wende ukaangarie/ sawa beko nasema tu ku kinywa: wende ukaangarie/ nayee alitokaka: Belgique weee: alifika mu Angola: kufika mu Angola: alipatana tena na batu mpaka mu Angola: aliingia nabo mu Zaire: T: alitembea: alifika mugini moja: anaka: [aside] làlàlà/ anafika mugini moja: ali: ali: kuta batu/ batu bale: kwa kumuona tu: ah [claps his hands] bote banakimbia/ mukimbia mwabo balikimbia mu pori: aku: alishinda na muchoko ya kule alitoka mbali: akukwa mufano ya tena kuendelea: nawakuuliza neno asema uku ni wapi: ii ni fasi gani/ 12. ts: bon: alirudia: nakwenda kuleta ma: rapports yake: marapports yake: kwa: Léopold deux/ F: ah: [Painting 8: Stanley Reports to Leopold II] njo rapport yake ya Stanley/ T: eeh/ na kumuambia ya kama: nalienda mule ulinituma/ minafika/ ni kweli nalikutanisha batu bengine: beko naexister/ naliwabeba: tulikwenda nabo: katikati ya Afrique/ na minakutanisha bale batu: mais naliona kwa mbali: na mi sijue kama ni batu ou bien kama ni nyama/ beko nakimbia bote ndani ya pori/ na mi sikuwa namna moya ya kufanya: nali: nalirudia/ sawa vile narudia huku: ni juu ya kuelezea/ nayee Léopold alimuelezea oui: sawa vile unasema: kulikuwa ungine anaisha kutangulia: anaisha ku: kwenda mbele/ tunashikia kama T:... ah, if you have the strength." T: "Then go to Africa. You should discover that place where we've heard people live. When they first named those people it was said that they had tails. Were they like monkeys? We don't know what kind of people they are." T: Right. "We see, or rather, we hear that this is what they are like. So, you go and seek whether they have a language, go and look." So he left Belgium and after a long trip he came to Angola. In Angola he met people and together with them he entered Zaire. T: So he traveled and would come to a village, [aside] oh my, oh my, 15 where he encountered people. But when those people saw him, ah [claps his hands], they all ran away. Whenever they fled, they took off for the bush. [Stanley] was taken over by fatigue, [after all] he had come from far away. There was no way he could go on asking them: Where am I, what kind of place is this? 12. Alright then, he went back to make his reports to Leopold II. F: Ah, [Painting 8: Stanley Reports to Leopold II] this is about Stanley giving his report. T: Yes, and he told him: "I went where you sent me. I got there and, it is true, I found other people. So they exist. I took them along and we traveled together into the interior of Africa. I met those people [who live there] but I only saw them from far away and I don't know whether they are people or animals. They all ran away into the bush. There was nothing I could do about it, so I came back. I returned here to tell you about it." Then Leopold told him: "Yes, as you said, there is a person who had already spent some time there. He went earlier. [The name] we heard was something like 'Livingstone.' He is an Englishman.

13 sur 38 05.02.2006 0:28 Livingstone/ c'est un Anglais/ ni Anglais/ T: anaisha kwenda/ alafu kumbe bafanye nguvu: mutafute: fasi utamupata/ yee atakuelezea muzuri: utajua ile mugini/ njo maana alitokaka: na kwenda kutafuta: Livingstone/ Stanley/ bon/ T: alikwenda namutafuta: namutafuta: namutafuta: namutafuta: anakwenda kumupata: mu: Mulungwishi/ 13. T: ku Mulungwishi kule alimupata [Painting 9: Stanley Meets Livingstone]: Livingstone alikuwa zamani gani na bantu: ba mu Zaire: bale balisema kama balimukimbia Livings: nani: Stanley/ T: balikuwa nabo bien: alibakuta beko nafanya chumvi yabo: ao banafanya mukuba: banasumbulia: anaanza kubafundisha na mambo ya dini: anafundisha dini ile inaingia mara ya kwanza mu Zaire: na baprotestants/ voilà alibafundisha: anabafundisha: anabafundisha: Stanley: siku kidogo: anakuwa kutokea mu mukini ile/ anakuta bantu mingi/ na sultani/ tiens/ na: Livingstone vilevile/ balipokeleana: na furaha mingi kabisa kabisa/ na Living: na Stanley alikala siku kidogo mu ile mugini: alimuelezea asema kumbe mi sasa: ni safari/ ya ile balinituma: nitaendelea tu/ aliitika asema bon ni muzuri: minabakia tu kwa akili 4 niko mugonjwa/ na yeye: ali: ali: alibakia/ yeye: Stanley alikwenda/ 14. T: kisha kwenda kwake: ku mukongo yake: Stanley sawa vile alibakia: nani: Livingsto: Livingstone sawa vile alibakia maladi: alikufa/ F: alikufa/ T: alikufa/ kisha kufa: Livingstone alikufia mikono ya bantu mweushi [Painting 10: Livingstone's Death]/ bale alianza kufundisha: na walimuzika: namna ya kinkambo huku kwetu/ T: He had gone earlier. So [said Leopold] one should make an effort and you should look for the place where you can find him. He is going to inform you thoroughly, and you will get to know this village. That is why Stanley set out to go and look for Livingstone. Alright." T: So he went and looked for him all over the place until he found him in Mulungwishi. 13. T: It was at Mulungwishi that he found Livingstone [Painting 9: Stanley Meets Livingstone]. He had lived there for who knows how long, together with people from Zaire, the same that were said to have run away from Stanley. T: They got along fine. When he had arrived there he found they were producing salt and copper ingots, and they talked. He began to teach them about religion; he taught the religion that was the first to get into Zaire, that of the Protestants. And he continued to teach them for a long time. It took Stanley only a short while to get to this village. There he found many people, a chief, and, to his surprise, Livingstone as well. They greeted each other and were full of joy. Stanley stayed a while in this village, then he told [Livingstone]: "I must be on my way. I shall continue my mission." [Livingstone] accepted this and said: "Fine, but I'll stay here, because I am sick." So he stayed behind; Stanley left. 14. T: After Stanley had left Livingstone continued to be ill and died. F: He died. T: He died. Livingstone died in the arms of black people [Painting 10: Livingstone's Death], those he had begun to teach. They buried him. Following the custom of our ancestors, here they dug a hole among the rocks.

14 sur 38 05.02.2006 0:28 balichumbula ndani ya ndibwe: T: namukamata balimuingisha mule: banafunyika/ Livingstone: alikufa/ 15. na wakati ule: na wakati ile alikufa: T: nazani Living: na Stanley alizidi tu kuendelea weee: paka ngambo ya Stanleyville/ zamani: za: zamani alikuya: Kisangani/ T: alikuta ile jina/ Kisangani/ alitembea sana anafika na kule ngambo: anaexplorer/ na kisha anarudia: anakuwa kumuelezea: T: [aside] anakuwa...?...: anakuwa kumuelezea: Léo: Léopold deux: asema kama minatoka ku Zaire: ku Zaire: minaisha kazi yangu yote: najua na mambo yote: inapita: kule/ bon/ 16. bon: katikati ya Zaire: ile wakati ile: kulikuya: paka: lufu kwa bantu: ya Ngongo Lutete/ Ngongo Lutete naye: aliikala tu: ni juu ya: kuua batu [Painting 11: Chief Ngongo Lutete]/ T: kukata: kuweka mu chungu: kula: nyama yake/ bon/ wale wengine watumwa: ni kufunga kamba: kuuzisha/ ku wa: sawa vile chef de l'etat alisema: kwa commissionnaires: Arabes/ bon/ anabapatia bale batu: balikufunga nkamba: bale nabo anabeba: anakwenda kupeleka: ku Zanzibar/ na kuwauzisha/ kwa wazungu: nao wazungu walianza kwenda nao katikati: katika utumwa/ T: ku bulaya: na ku Amérique/ ni vilevile banaexister banoirs Américains/ banègres/ ni bale batu balitoka uku kwetu: balianza kuuzishwa ile wakati/ nazania: depuis bale batu balikwenda kuko: eh: quatre cent: miaka mia inne eh? T: oui/ kuko siècles inne tuseme/ eeh/ T: They took him, put him inside, and covered [the hole]. So Livingstone was dead. 15. It was the at time when [Livingstone] died. T: I think, Stanley went on and covered a great distance until he got to the area of Stanleyville, which long ago used to be Kisangani. T: He found this name, Kisangani. He traveled a lot and when he got there he explored the region. Then he returned and made his report [to the King]. T: [aside]...?... 16 He made his report to Leopold II: "I come from Zaire, [where] I have completed all my tasks. I know everything that is happening there." Alright. 17 16. Alright. At that time, in the interior of Zaire, the people of Ngongo Lutete were sowing death. Ngongo Lutete sustained himself by killing people [Painting 11: Chief Ngongo Lutete]. T: He had them cut up and put into a cooking pot; then he ate their flesh. Alright. Others were tied up and sold as slaves, as the head of State said, to Arab agents. Alright. He delivered those people to them and they tied them up, took them away, and brought them to Zanzibar. And they sold them to the whites. And the whites went away with them and [sold them] as slaves. T: In Europe and America. So there are now black Americans, Negroes. They are the people who came from our country and were sold at that time. I think this happened four hundred years ago, right? T: Yes, let's say four centuries ago.

15 sur 38 05.02.2006 0:28 17. bon/ siku kidogo Stanley na nkundi ya Dhanis: balikutanishana/ F: [points to painting] hapa? T: banakutanishana: na waarabu/ nakwenda kuvumbula: nyumba: ya: Ngongo Lutete/ na walipikana kabisa kabisa/ waliua waarabes: na kuwafukuza/ kuwakuza kwa lote/ kisha kuwafukuza waarabes: walikimbia [Painting 12: Arab Defeat]/ 18. bon/ nazania: balibamba bachefs bale benyewe bakubwa: ba baarabes [Painting 13: The Execution of the Arab Leaders]/ T: balibamba bachefu bakubwa baarabes: na kuwaua/ nazania kati yabo: balibambaka Rumaliza: Tipo Tipo: Mwinimutara/ kisha kuwaua: basi/ 19. sawa vile Banza Kongo [Painting 14: The Poisoned Banza Kongo]: T: kisha kuwaua: sawa vile Banza Kongo alipenda: watu wote/ weusi kama weupe/ alipenda yee wazungu: wala muntu mweusi/ na kwanza kuwa muntu alipenda busultani yake ilizidi kuendelea sawa vile nilikuambia kulikuwa civilisation de: ya watu weusi ya wa Kongomani/ bon: ali: alikuwa warafiki na Léopold deux/ T: bon/ Léopold deux: aliwaza mawazo ya kusema kama: sawa vile huyu mutu ana: pokelea banduku yangu na kuikala nabo: kumbe vile: mitakamata sasa jina ya Zaire: mitatosha/ nitakamata: ile ilikuwa mawazo yake na mayele yake/ T: atujue politique yake alikuwa naye/ nitakamata kutosha ile jina: na nimupe jina ya: Congo/ irudie mu: Zaire/ ile fleuve Zaire anasema: itatoka/ ni kweli alikamata: nani: jina ya Banza Kongo: aliupa: inchi Congo/ na aliita kama: Congo/ na jina ya Zaire: ilikufa ile wakati/ T: bon/ kisha kufa kwa: kwa: kwa 17. Alright. Not long after that Stanley and the group of Dhanis met. F: [points to painting] Here? T: They also met the Arabs and eventually discovered the residence of Ngongo Lutete. They had a fierce fight; they killed [many] Arabs and chased them away for ever. The Arabs were chased away and fled [Painting 12: Arab Defeat]. 18. Alright, I think they captured the most important leaders of the Arabs and killed them [Painting 13: The Execution of the Arab Leaders]. T: They captured the big Arab leaders and killed them. Among them, I believe, they caught Rumaliza, Tipo Tip, and Mwinimutara. Then they killed them, and that was that. 19. Now take Banza Kongo [Painting 14: The Poisoned Banza Kongo]. T: After they had killed the Arabs -- take Banza Kongo. He liked everyone, white or black. He liked the whites, he liked the black man. Above all he was a person who liked to be the chief, and he made much progress. There was, as I told you, civilization among the black people of Kongo. Alright. [Banza Kongo] was friends with Leopold II. T: Alright. Leopold II thought up this idea: "Because this man received my associates and lived with them, I am now going to remove the name 'Zaire.' I am going to take" -- this was his idea and his plan... F:...mm-hmm... T:... we don't know what kind of politics he had in mind -- "I am going to take this name away and I shall call it 'Congo'-- that will replace 'Zaire;' 'Zaire' as the name of the river will have to go." And, truly, he took Banza Kongo's name and gave it to the country of the Congo. He called it "Congo," and the name "Zaire" died at that time.

16 sur 38 05.02.2006 0:28 nani: kwa jina ya Zaire: kisha kufwa kwa jina ya Zaire: nazania Banza Kongo: eeh: wazungu walisema: balimuambia Banza Kongo/ tunatafuta kufanya karamu/ karamu c'est que ni fête/ njo tunakupatia jina: na wee unabakia sultani wa: inchi yote ya: Congo/ T: ni kweli nayee aliitika/ kwa furaha/ kulikuwa furaha munene: na ya kweli/ na kisha ndani ya furaha mule: Banza Kongo: balimwekeaka sumu/ balimuempoisonner: na alikufa/ nazania kufa kwa Banza Kongo: basi bantu balipoteza bintu byote na akili yote/ ni sawa vile minakuelezea kama: ku tableau sawa minaandika: yakuwa: mu: eh: président Mobutu alisema je cite eh? T: [reads from painting] l'afrique est un continent qui a subi le [sic] plus grande humiliation de l'histoire/ naendelea tena: le noir n'a plus à échapper au razzias car il perd tout simplement ces droits: sa patrie: et sa liberté/ Mobutu/ T: fin de citation/ njo wakati: ile muntu mweusi alipoteza yote: na alikuwa sasa ndani ya utumwa/ na balikamata: muzungu: alimukombola Banza Kongo: na ni muzungu Portugais/ na kisha kukombola: Banza Kongo: hakukuwe tena mufano: tulikuwa ndani ya: utumwa/ na usultani yetu: ilikufa paka pale/ 20. na kisha kufa kwa usultani: eh: Stanley alirudi tena ku: bulaya: na kumulezea Léopold kama sasa mu Zaire hamuna tena: kitu/ kunabakia: mu Congo pardon ile tuliweka jina amuna tena kitu: kunabakiako paka chef moya: jina yake ni: Katanga: T: vilevile na Msiri: na Pande: Kashipo: Nkwande: T: bale bote ni bachefu nakuelezea: banabakia/ alafu mukubwa yabo minazania ni: Katanga [Painting 15: Chief Katanga and Chief Msiri]/ T: Alright. When the name Zaire had died, when the name Zaire had died, I think Banza Kongo, or rather, the whites spoke and told Banza Kongo: "We want to organize a karamu. Karamu means feast. This when we give you the name and you will remain the ruler of the entire country of the Congo." T: Truly, he was pleased to accept, and there was joy, great and sincere. And then, in the midst of this joy, they gave Banza Kongo some poison. They poisoned him and he died. With the death of Banza Kongo, I believe, people lost all their possessions and all their knowledge. It was as I explained it to you and as I wrote on the painting. President Mobutu said -- I quote, right? T: [Reads from painting] "Africa is a continent that suffered the greatest humiliation in history." I go on quoting: "The black man no longer can escape the raids, for he quite simply loses his rights, his homeland, and his freedom. Mobutu." T: End of quotation. That was the time, when the black man lost everything and from then on he lived in slavery. Then they took a white person, a Portuguese, who replaced Banza Kongo. Once they had replaced Banza Kongo there was no way out; we lived in slavery. Our sovereignty died right there. 20. When sovereignty had died, well, Stanley returned to Europe and informed Leopold: "In Zaire, sorry, in the Congo as we called it, there is now nothing [in our way] anymore. Only one ruler remains, his name is Katanga. T: And also Msiri: Pande, Kashipo, Nkwande." T: Let me explain: All those were left but I think their leader was Katanga [Painting 15: Chief Katanga and Chief Msiri]. T: So, actually, when [Stanley]

17 sur 38 05.02.2006 0:28 T: ni kweli pale alikwenda kule: Katanga naye huku: alibakia: maladi/ anapata maladi/ sawa vile balikuwa barafiki na Msiri: njo alikuwa rafiki wa kweli/ alimuita/ kwake/ anamuikalisha/ anamuelezea/ Msiri/ wewe uko rafiki yangu/ na miye: kuzala kwangu nalizala: nakuwa kuona tu mutoto yangu anakuwa kidogo: ni mwanaume/ yee bado kukomea/ nikipima kukamata niite mutu wa mu mukini yangu niupe busultani: mitapoteza: byote/ kumbe vile: weye sawa uko rafiki eh? ubebe inchi yangu hii/ na bintu yangu: na babibi yangu: na mbuzi yangu: na: byote tu na mali yangu/ T: uchunge/ kama mutoto huyu anakomea: bon: uta: utapa: utamurudishia bitu yake: byote/ voilà: ni ile minakuambia kama ni tableau inasema: [reads from painting] grand chef Katanga fait ses adieux à Msiri/ mm? le criminel/ en tout cas notez bien: Msiri est arrière grand père de: ex-godefroid Munongo: ancien ministre de l'interieur: de l'ex-katanga eh? T: bon: voilà/ ni nkambo yake na Munongo eh? ile ni adisi/ 21. bon: voilà alimuelezea vile alimuelezea muzuri: kisha Msiri: anabakia sasa: kisha Katanga anakufa/ kisha kufa kwa Katanga: Msiri anabakia/ na busultani: na byote/ kisha kubakia na busultani na byote: anaangalia sasa: ngambo na ngambo/ mukini na busultani: bunakuwa butamu/ na anasema sawa nitafanya gani? kumbe peupe pa hapa: miye nitakamata paka mutoto wenyewe baliniachia: niue/ ni kweli: alikamata mutu ule: alikwenda naye: [pointing to the painting] munaona ni ku mpembeni ya mukini: na tuburi ya baba yake ya mutoto: njo ile bado...?... kutoka majani/ ya kusema kama ilikawa/ alikamata mutoto: anakata kichwa: anaua [Painting 16: Msiri Kills Katanga's Son]/ na kisha kuua mutoto: alibakia sultani: wa: bantu ya Katanga: na sultani wa Bunkeya/ ni vile minasema le fils left, Katanga remained here, sick. He fell ill and because he and Msiri were friends -- he was really a close friend -- he called him to his house. He made him sit down and told him this: "Msiri, you are my friend. Among my offspring I only have one small child, a boy. He is not grown up yet. If I try to appoint someone from my village to be the chief I will lose everything. Therefore, seeing as you are my friend, take this country of mine. Take my possessions, my wives, my goats, everything, and my also my wealth. T: Guard it. When this child has grown up, give him back all that belongs to him." There you are, this what I am telling you and what it says on the picture: "The great chief Katanga takes his leave from Msiri, the criminal." At any rate, take good note, Msiri is the great-grandfather of Munongo, formerly Godefroid, who used to be minister of the interior of the former Katanga, right? T: So, here we are. He is a forefather of Munongo, right? This is the story. 21. Fine, so he explained all this to him at length. Then Katanga died while Msiri stayed alive [and took over] the office of chief and everything. Having been left with the office of chief and everything, he looked about; he saw the village and found the office of chief to be sweet. He said: "What am I going to do? Here, in this open place, I am just going to grab the child they 18 left in my care and kill him. It's true, he took this person and went with away him [pointing to painting] you see [this place] alongside the village, and there is the burial ground with the grave 19 of this child's father, still not overgrown, which would have meant that it had been there for some time. He took the child and killed it by beheading

18 sur 38 05.02.2006 0:28 du chef Katanga: executé par Msiri: l'ami de son père/ kisha ku: kisha kumuua: anabakia busultani: kuonyesha hakukuwa muntu tena aliweza kusema: kitu/ 22. T: siku moja: bale ba: Bodson/ alianza kutelemuka: sawa balipata marapports kule Stanley alikwenda: juu ya chef Katanga: balimukuta kama anaisha kufa/ T: balimukuta Msiri sasa/ T: balimuelezea: Msiri: tunakuya humu: mu Bunkeya: tunatafuta tupandishe: drapeau yetu: ya: ya babelges/ sawa bo bote balikuwa baportugais mais balikuwa: balikuwa: payés par les Belges/eh? T: par le roi des Belges/ banumutumikia nani: sultani wa: wa babelges/ sawa vile tunatafuta tutumikie: eh: tupandishe drapeau yetu: umu mu Bunkeya/ Msiri alisema: haiwezekane/ kupandisha drapeau humu mu inchi yangu/ na akujua ata maana drapeau/ mais alikatala tu kwa kukatala asema: haiwezekane kuweka ile nguo: ndani ya inchi yangu/ T: bon [chuckles]/ bon/ kisha yake: Bodson: kwa kichwa yake nguvu: alisema mitapandisha tu/ alikamata drapeau: anaanza kupandisha/ Msiri alitoka: na lance/ mush: mukuki/ F: na mukuki/ T: na kumutwanga Bodson: na kumuua [Painting 17: Msiri Kills Bodson]/ ile nkundi ya: ya Msiri: ya Bodson: iliona vile: ilibeba bunduki: na kumupika: Msiri/ kisha kumupika Msiri: Msiri: alikufa/ 23. kisha kufa kwa Msiri: bali: balikamata mwili yake: kukata kichwa: kutosha kichwa [Painting 18: Msiri Is Beheaded]/ [Painting 16: Msiri Kills Katanga's Son]. After he had killed the child, he remained chief of the people of Katanga as well as chief of Bunkeya. It was as I say [on the painting]: "The son of chief Katanga executed by Msiri, his father's friend." After he had killed him, he kept the office of chief and no one dared to expose [his crime] or to say anything about it. 22. One day, Bodson and his group began to descend [on Katanga]. They had reports about chief Katanga from the place where Stanley had gone. [When they arrived] it turned out that he was already dead. T: So now they met Msiri. T: They explained to Msiri: "We have come here to Bunkeya and we want to raise our flag, that of the Belgians." All of them were Portuguese, but they were paid by the Belgians, right? T: By the King of the Belgians. They worked for the ruler of Belgium. So [they said]: "We want to raise our flag here in Bunkeya." Msiri said: "Raising a flag here in my country is not acceptable." He did not even know what "flag," meant but he refused anyway. "This piece of cloth must not be put up inside my country." T: Fine [chuckles], fine. Then Bodson, being a strong-headed person, said, "I am going to raise it nevertheless. He took the flag and began to raise it. Msiri came out with a lance, a spear. F: A spear. T: He struck Bodson and killed him [Painting 17: Msiri Kills Bodson]. When the group of Msiri, or rather of Bodson, saw this, a gun was brought and fired at Msiri whereupon he died. 23. After Msiri had died they took his body and cut off the head, which they kept apart [Painting 18: Msiri Is Beheaded].