Mahabharata, Vana Parva The Origin of the Jiva -

The Origin of the Jiva - Drutakarma dasa 2003 by Drutakarma däsa All Rights Reserved No part of this book may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted in any form, by any means, including mechanical, electronic, photocopying, recording, or otherwise, without the prior written permission of the publisher. 1. Introduction 2. Teachings of Srila Prabhupada 3. Evidence from Srimad-Bhagavatam 4. Statements of the Previous Acaryas 5. General Conclusion by Drutakarma Dasa namo om visnu padaya krsna-presthaya bhutale srimate bhaktivedanta svaminn iti namine namas te sarasvate deve gaura-vani-pracarine nirvisesa-sunyavadi-pascatya-desa-tarine Dry arguments are inconclusive. A great personality whose opinion does not differ from others is not considered a great sage. Simply by studying the Vedas, which are variegated, one cannot come to the right path by which religious principles are understood. The solid truth of religious principles is hidden in the heart of an unadulterated self-realized person. Consequently, as the sastras confirm, one should accept whatever progressive path the mahajanas advocate. Mahabharata, Vana Parva 313.117 The insignificant author of this book prays that if I am wrong in my presentations of this matter, may the merciful Lord Krsna, who is very dear to the residents of Gokula, please forgive me. Jiva Goswami, Sri Krsna-sandarbha 181.2 1

9701 Venice Blvd. #5, Los Angeles, CA 90034 Phone: 310-837-5283, Fax 310-837-1056 drutakarma.acbsp@pamho.net June 20, 2000 QUICK PATH For those pressed for time, I would suggest reading: 1. Introduction, 2. Teachings of Srila Prabhupada, up to and including section 2.4.2, the introductory paragraphs of section 4.5, section 4.5.5.1, and the general conclusion at the very end. In between one will find many selections from the teachings of Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, Srila Jiva Goswami, and Srimad-Bhagavatam. The headlines give an indication of the subject matter. One can simply skim these, picking out those of interest. Chapter 1. OJD 1: Introduction Introduction OJ 1.1 The Questions 1.1 THE QUESTIONS 1. Were the conditioned souls now in this material world originally engaged in a direct and developed relationship of devotional service with Krsna in a spiritual planet in the spiritual world, and if so how could they fall from such a perfect relationship? 2. If the conditioned souls now in this material world were not originally engaged in a direct and developed relationship of devotional service with Krsna in a spiritual planet in the spiritual world, then where did they come from? OJ 1.2 The Answers 2

1.2 THE ANSWERS Here are the main answers that have been proposed to the jiva question: 1. Yes, the conditioned souls now in this material world were originally engaged in a direct and developed relationship of devotional service to Krsna in a spiritual planet in the spiritual world. They fell from that position by misuse of free will, and by properly using free will they can regain their original position. 2. The conditioned souls now in this material world were originally situated in the brahmajyoti, and they have eternally turned away from Krsna. Falling from the brahmajyoti to this material world, they get a chance to develop their relationship with Krsna, which exists in them in seed form. 3. The conditioned souls in this material world were always here, always conditioned. 4. The conditioned souls in this material world originally emerged from the Viraja River, at which time some chose Krsna and others chose Maya. 5. The conditioned souls in this material world were originally with Krsna in a spiritual planet, but not in a fully developed relationship of service. At times, Srila Prabhupada said the question of the origin of the jiva is not as important as trying to go back to Godhead. Nevertheless, he always answered the question. However, it is not the origin of the jiva itself that is so important here but the larger issues of how Srila Prabhupada s teachings are to be understood and applied and how the teachings of the previous acaryas (and current acaryas outside ISKCON) are to be approached. These larger issues have an importance that goes far beyond the jiva question. They also have relevance to many other important philosophical and practical questions facing ISKCON, such as the establishment of varnasrama, the practice of raganuga-sadhana, etc. If we accept the views of some advocates, or allow them to spread unchecked, this will set a precedent in ISKCON for interpreting thousands of Srila Prabhupada s statements in a way that was not directly done by Srila Prabhupada himself. OJ 1.3 How Should We Arrive at an Answer? 1.3 HOW SHOULD WE ARRIVE AT AN ANSWER? Any philosophically inclined devotee with good writing ability, logical skills, and a broad 3

acquaintance with the books, letters, and conversations of Srila Prabhupada, as well as the works of the previous acaryas, can put together a convincing (to some) case for any of the 5 answers to the origin of the jiva question. Practically speaking, we have seen this to be true. And it is this situation that has caused some confusion among devotees. The statements of Srila Prabhupada, the Vedic scriptures, and the previous acaryas seem to provide ample materials for the advocates of all the above mentioned views. But perhaps there is a way out. The above state of affairs may be Krsna s way of instructing us about the meaning of this famous text from the Mahabharata: tarkos pratisthah srutayo vibhinna nasav rsir yasya matir na bhinnam dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam mahajano yena gatah sa panthah Dry arguments are inconclusive. A great personality whose opinion does not differ from others is not considered a great sage. Simply by studying the Vedas, which are variegated, one cannot come to the right path by which religious principles are understood. The solid truth of religious principles is hidden in the heart of an unadulterated self-realized person. Consequently, as the sastras confirm, one should accept whatever progressive path the mahajanas advocate. Given that argument and reason can lead to different conclusions, that the sastras and sayings of the previous acaryas contain many apparent contradictions, the safest thing is to follow the statements of an unadulterated self-realized person. I would suggest that for members of ISKCON this person is Srila Prabhupada. The previous acaryas may also have a role to play, but Srila Prabhupada said in a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in Los Angeles on December 8, 1973: You cannot imagine what my spiritual master said. Or even if you read some books, you cannot understand unless you understand it from me. This is called parampara system. You cannot jump over to the superior guru, neglecting the next acarya, immediate next acarya. This would mean that in answering any difficult question, where there are apparent contradictions that cannot be easily resolved, our primary resource should be the words of Srila Prabhupada our immediate next acarya. We should not immediately go to the previous acaryas and various Vedic texts to resolve the contradictions. Sastra undoubtedly has an important role, but our approach to it should be through Srila Prabhupada. If we were capable of independently absorbing sastra, why did Srila Prabhupada write purports to all of his translations? So the first resource should be Srila Prabhupada s words. 4

But what if Srila Prabhupada s words appear to be contradictory? We have seen in practice that different devotees with good writing abilities, some familiarity with logic, and broad acquaintance with Srila Prabhupada s teachings can competently produce statements in support of contradictory conclusions, even if they use only Srila Prabhupada s teachings. Everyone claims to have Prabhupada on their side of the question. So what can be done? I propose that we have to look carefully at the kind of statements from Srila Prabhupada being presented by different advocates. If we can see that some statements made by Srila Prabhupada have greater weight than others, then perhaps it will be possible to say that one advocate has presented a more conclusive statement of Srila Prabhupada s views on a controversial topic than another. The strongest statements by Srila Prabhupada are, I propose, those that directly deal with the specific question under consideration. Since the specific question here is the original situation of the conditioned soul now in the material world, the best statements by Srila Prabhupada are those that directly refer to conditioned souls in the material world and how they got there. Statements about souls in Vaikuntha would have less value in this connection (unless they also directly address the specific issue of the conditioned souls in this material world). One may connect statements about souls in Vaikuntha with the question of the origin of the conditioned souls in this material world, but it takes a step of logic by the advocate to do this. The step of logic may appear obvious. But there are many ways for a logician to make a mistake, especially in matters that lie far beyond the range of our mind and senses. So I propose that more weight has to be given to statements by Srila Prabhupada that directly address the origin of the conditioned souls now in this material world. Such strong statements do not require any steps of fallible logic to connect them with the exact question under consideration. And among such strong statements, answers given to direct questions, especially those that seek the resolution of specific contradictions, must be given more weight. In Vedic knowledge, the question is typically used for clarification of difficult points. The statements may be there, but the answers to the questions about these statements bring out the real meaning in a clearer way. That is why most of the Vedic texts are in the form of questions and answers. For example, in some statements Srila Prabhupada says no one falls from Vaikuntha. But he has also said that the spirit soul in this material world is fallen already from Vaikuntha planet. The statements appear contradictory. But in a lecture, Srila Prabhupada once said: Sometimes it appears to the student contradictory. But actually, the master who is well conversant, he does not say anything contradictory. It is the misunderstanding of the student that sometimes he thinks that it is contradictory. Therefore the question is allowed. You ll find that a student is advised to question to the spiritual master. [Lecture on Bhagavad-gita 3.1-5, Los Angeles, December 20, 1968] 5

Srila Prabhupada, being well conversant, cannot therefore be presenting contradictory information. If there seems to be a contradiction in his statements, it is only in the mind of the student. To clear up the apparent contradiction, the student should inquire. And he should accept the guru s conclusion. So let s suppose a disciple of Srila Prabhupada has presented Srila Prabhupada a question about the apparent contradiction between statements about falling and not falling from Vaikuntha. And let us then suppose that Srila Prabhupada gives an answer that affirms one of these two views and explains the other view in terms of that view. At that point, we would have to admit that the controversy has been resolved. We cannot go back to other statements by Srila Prabhupada and try to raise the same contradiction again. We should accept the resolution given by Srila Prabhupada. In this paper, I will show that Srila Prabhupada s disciples did in fact repeatedly put questions to Srila Prabhupada concerning his apparently contradictory statements about the origin of the jiva. I will also show that Srila Prabhupada repeatedly and consistently resolved the contradictions in favor of the position that the souls in this material world can and did fall from Vaikuntha planets. He also gave clear explanations of how the no fall statements can be understood in that light. For example, he said that we do not really fall from Vaikuntha, but Krsna creates a situation where we think we have fallen. So the general principle is that questions put to Srila Prabhupada about his apparently contradictory statements and the answers that Srila Prabhupada gave to those questions have to be given special weight as we attempt to resolve the same contradictions. Finally, among direct answers to specific questions, those given by Srila Prabhupada in order to resolve controversies that have arisen in the general society of ISKCON devotees must be given the most weight. Among conclusive statements, they are the strongest of the strong. They are a direct guide in resolving the same controversy when it arises again. Now if it happens that Srila Prabhupada gives apparently contradictory answers to the same question, then we may have a problem. But if the question was always answered in the same way, then the problem is solved. We should simply answer the question the way Srila Prabhupada answered it. We don t have to strain our brains trying to come up with a conclusion about the inconceivable. All we have to do is repeat the answer that Srila Prabhupada gave to the question. With the answer given by Srila Prabhupada firmly in mind, one can then enter into the statements of the sastras and previous acaryas with some degree of confidence that one will be able to resolve apparent contradictions in their statements in the proper way. And if some contradictions cannot be resolved in favor of the answer given by Srila Prabhupada, these can be put into the category of differences among the acaryas. We accept Srila Prabhupada s version and conclude that in truth the other bona fide Vaisnava acarya must be saying the same thing, but in a way that we are not yet able to understand. I am proposing this procedure as a general method for approaching the resolution of controversial philosophical questions. If an answer to a controversial question includes several elements, then it is also helpful if an advocate can point to statements by Srila Prabhupada that contain all the elements of the answer. An 6

answer that puts together various statements from Srila Prabhupada in a way that Srila Prabhupada never put them together himself is weaker than an answer that puts together elements in the same way that Srila Prabhupada did. For example, there are many statements by Srila Prabhupada in which he gives the whole story of the soul s original position as a servant of Krsna in the spiritual world, his misuse of free will, his fall into the material world, and his return back to his original position. The following letter to Umapati Dasa, dated March 30, 1970, provides one example: You have written to say that French people are eager to understand Vaisnava philosophy, and the summary of Vaisnava philosophy is as follows: God is a person like us, but He is all-powerful with all opulences in full. The living entities are His eternal servants. There are varieties of living entities that have inherited the opulences of God in different degrees. There are two kinds of nature, the spiritual nature and the material nature. The living entities belong to the spiritual nature and being part and parcel of God they have all the qualities of God in minute proportion. There are innumerable living entities both in the spiritual world and in the material world. The spiritual world is far, far greater than the material world. As such, the number of living entities living in the spiritual world is many more times greater than the number of living entities living within the material world. The living entities, when they try to lord it over the God s property, forgetting their constitutional position to remain as eternal servant of God, they are given the material world to act according to their desires. In such endless varieties of desires the living entities are seen in varieties of bodies beginning from Brahma, down to the most insignificant insect. In this way, when someone is fortunate, he, by the grace of Spiritual Master and Krsna, revives his Krsna Consciousness. And if he makes progress under the direction of the Spiritual Master, then he revives his original Krsna Consciousness in full and thus he regains his position in the eternal Kingdom of God. So you know very well all these facts, and while preaching you have to explain all these things nicely. Then you become a good preacher. Now you try your best in this line of preaching work and be successful as you have taken birth as a human being. Our Vaisnava philosophy is in summary the Teachings of Lord Caitanya. You read them very carefully, word to word, and immediately begin translation into French language so they may be published in French BTG as well as in future they may be published in a book. Here we find all the elements of this account put together in one complete summary statement by Srila Prabhupada himself. On the other hand, presentations of the brahmajyot idea involve advocates putting together various unrelated statements by Srila Prabhupada. Nowhere, to my knowledge, does Srila Prabhupada put these pieces together himself in a clear, explicit statement of the jiva s origin in the brahmajyoti, fall, and liberation. In fact, he directly rejects this idea. Also, Srila Prabhupada made a big point of using the common, dictionary meanings of words. One of his main preaching points was to argue against the impersonalists giving up the direct dictionary definitions of the words of the Vedic scriptures. An answer that takes Srila Prabhupada s words 7

according to their direct, commonly understood meaning would be stronger than one that relies on indirect or hidden meanings. To summarize. In attempting to answer a controversial philosophical question, we should first consider the words of Srila Prabhupada. Among these the best are, in order of most importance: (1) Srila Prabhupada s direct answers to the same question, given for the specific purpose of resolving it for the Society. (2) Srila Prabhupada s direct answers to specific questions raised by his individual disciples in order to clarify apparent contradictions they saw in connection with these questions. (3) Statements by Srila Prabhupada (other than answers to questions) that directly and specifically deal with the exact topic under consideration. Only if questions cannot be resolved on the basis of these three kinds of evidence should we proceed with utmost caution to arrive at a conclusion not specifically given by Srila Prabhupada, but derived from careful study of his teachings in light of the Vedic literatures and writings of the previous acaryas. OJD 2: Teachings of Srila Prabhupada Chapter 2. Teachings of Srila Prabhupada OJ 2.1 Has Srila Prabhupada Already Answered the Question of the Origin of the Jiva? 2.1 HAS SRILA PRABHUPADA ALREADY ANSWERED THE QUESTION OF THE ORIGIN OF THE JIVA? Srila Prabhupada has already answered the questions about the origin of the jiva. These answers can be found in all three of the above mentioned strong categories of evidence. The answer found therein is that the conditioned souls in this material world were originally in a direct and developed relationship of devotional service to Krsna in a spiritual planet in the spiritual world. By misuse of independence, manifesting as a desire to imitate Krsna or take His position as supreme enjoyer, the soul gave up its natural state and was placed in the material world. By proper use of free will one can take up the process of Krsna consciousness and regain one s original position. Srila Prabhupada also directly rejects the ideas that we were originally situated in the brahmajyoti or that we were always existing as conditioned souls in this material world. Srila Prabhupada has never said we were originally from the Viraja River. Nor does he say that our original condition was fundamentally different from our final condition on going back to Godhead. Below I will give examples supporting these statements from the above-mentioned three strong categories of 8

evidence. But first I will outline a proposed resolution to this controversy. OJ 2.2 A Proposed Solution to the Controversy 2.2 A PROPOSED SOLUTION TO THE CONTROVERSY My solution is based on the following conclusions and proposals: 1. The origin of the souls now in this material world is undoubtedly a question beyond the range of our direct perception. We can therefore answer this question only by repeating the answer that Srila Prabhupada repeatedly gave when asked the same question. We were once in a direct and developed relationship of service to Krsna in a spiritual planet in the spiritual world. By misuse of independence we desired to imitate Krsna or take His position. Therefore we have been placed in the material world. But by becoming Krsna conscious we can regain our original position. No other view shall be presented as conclusive in any ISKCON media (print, video, electronic), classes, seminars, etc. 2. Srila Prabhupada directly rejected the idea that we are from the brahmajyoti. 3. In resolving philosophical controversies, the teachings, instructions, and personal example of Srila Prabhupada are the first and primary resource. If a conclusion, recognized by the GBC, can be drawn from careful study of this resource, it shall guide further research into the Vedic literature, the writings of previous acaryas, and the teachings of current bona fide Vaisnava acaryas outside ISKCON. Everything that can be harmonized to the conclusion arrived at from Srila Prabhupada s teachings shall be accepted. Any contradictions that cannot be resolved shall be placed in the category of differences among the acaryas. But ISKCON members shall follow the conclusion of Srila Prabhupada when there is such a difference. Regarding the jiva question, the practical application would be as follows. If a devotee sincerely and submissively inquires about the origin of the jiva, he should be given a brief answer as outlined above and be told that it is better to busy oneself in going back to Godhead than to worry extensively about such questions. If someone is persistent, they can be directed to publications prepared by devotees who have accepted the conclusions mentioned above (such as this one). Those who cannot accept these conclusions would be free to petition the GBC to change them. 9

Reasonable research and private discussion that do not constitute a disturbance would not be forbidden. But until the GBC resolutions accepting the above conclusions change, no contradictory conclusion could be presented in official ISKCON publications, courses, seminars, etc. It would be up to the GBC to decide whether or not any research and private discussion are reasonable. OJ 2.3 The Strongest Evidence: Srila Prabhupada's Direct Resolution of a Controversy in ISKCON 2.3 THE STRONGEST EVIDENCE: SRILA PRABHUPADA S DIRECT RESOLUTION OF A CONTROVERSY IN ISKCON 10 OJ 2.3.1 Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila 2.3.1 Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila In 1972, a devotee in Australia began saying that the living entities in this material world were originally situated in the brahmajyoti. According to Madhudvisa Prabhu and Caru Prabhu, who were both in Australia at the time, this caused some fairly widespread disturbance. Srila Prabhupada therefore dictated a response, a typed copy of which was retained by Madhudvisa Prabhu. This is the famous crow and tal fruit message. Madhudvisa has said that it was distributed to the Australian temple presidents. In this statement, given in direct response to inquiries from his students on the question of the origin of the jiva, Srila Prabhupada gives many definitive answers to the questions facing us. He intended these not just as answers to a particular devotee but as his official answer to a philosophical controversy that had arisen in the Society: We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the seen disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position. Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there. The jiva is originally with Krsna. But even with Krsna there is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Srila Prabhupada sets up a very strong

identity between the original state and the final state of liberation. He says we are just like a man dreaming. The man forgets himself. He creates a dream identity. And when he wakes from that dream identity, he is once more in his original position. There are two states. The free state and the covered state. The free state is with Krsna. There is no suggestion that the original state is fallen. There is also no suggestion of an original free state that is different from the final free state. We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila, or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed. The idea that we were always conditioned is directly rejected. Srila Prabhupada says, Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila, or sport. So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, merging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position. So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming. Here Srila Prabhupada directly compares the history of the souls in this material world with the history of Jaya and Vijaya. He speaks of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord. 11

Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased; better to spend time curing the disease. Here Srila Prabhupada directly rejects the idea that the conditioned soul was originally in the brahmajyoti. Srila Prabhupada then recommends that we not waste time with the question of our origin. But note that he first gave clear answers to the question. We should follow the same policy. Answer the question as above, and then suggest we not waste further time with it. On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down. Some panditas, big big learned scholars, saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin. Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya s clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna s lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative. What about the statement Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. Is Srila Prabhupada taking away everything he has said up to this point, and leaving the matter once more in confusion? Does he mean that we really could originally be from the brahmajyoti? No. This statement has to be considered in light of what has come before, in such a way that all the statements remain true. Srila Prabhupada has made two points absolutely clear. First, the original position of the soul is with Krsna in His lila, or sport. Second, the souls are not originally 12

from the brahmajyoti, but impersonalists in this material world, themselves fallen from their original position in Krsna s pastimes, may enter and fall down from the brahmajyoti many times during the course of successive creations of the universe. Therefore, for any particular soul it may be said that we do not know if it is coming, during this particular creation, from Krsna s eternal lila or from the brahmajyoti. Taken in this way, all the statements remain true in a consistent way. Of course, we know from other statements by Srila Prabhupada, quoted elsewhere in this paper, that the jiva is not from the brahmajyoti and was originally with Krsna in His spiritual abode. At the very end, Srila Prabhupada puts things in clear perspective when he says that we are always part and parcel of Krsna, just as a finger is always part of the body although it may be diseased. So in the same way we are always in touch with Krsna, either in his eternal lila or his lila of manifesting this material creation. Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna s lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly; therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don t waste your time with this Kaka taliya nyaya, crows and tal-fruit logic. What about this statement: When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna s lila? I have heard some say that when Srila Prabhupada earlier said that we were originally with Krsna in His lila, or sport, this might just mean that we were in contact with one of Krsna s energies maya or the brahmajyoti. In other words, it doesn t mean we were with Krsna personally. But this interpretation is not supported by the text. Srila Prabhupada compares the history of the conditioned soul directly with the history of Jaya and Vijaya. This clearly indicates a direct personal relationship, and not some other kind of lila. Srila Prabhupada also has directly stated in this text that we were not originally in the brahmajyoti. And in the first part of the text he said: We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila, or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration. So when Srila Prabhupada said we were in Krsna s lila, he meant before we were covered by the material energy, maya. In this context, the only allowable reading of lila is Krsna s pastimes as we commonly understand them from the 13

Tenth Canto of the Bhagavatam. But when we come to the material world, we remain in Krsna s lila in the sense of being in contact with Krsna s energies. So in this famous crow and tal fruit message, which was given by Srila Prabhupada in order to resolve the same controversy that faces us today, Srila Prabhupada makes the following points about the conditioned souls: 1. We were originally with Krsna in His lila, or sport. 2. We are not originally from the brahmajyoti. 3. By comparing the situation of the conditioned souls with that of Jaya and Vijaya, Srila Prabhupada indicates that the original relationship was one of active service in a spiritual planet. 4. There is no mention of an origin in the Viraja River. 5. We are not eternally conditioned, in the sense of being always in the material word and never having been with Krsna in the spiritual world. On the basis of this statement alone, we can confidently answer the questions raised at the beginning of this paper. Yes, we were originally with Krsna. No, we are not from the brahmajyoti. No, we are not eternally conditioned. No, we are not originally from the Viraja River. No, our relationship with Krsna was not undeveloped. The reason that we can answer the questions so confidently in this way is that the crow and tal fruit message was given by Srila Prabhupada in direct answer to the same controversy that faces us today. In this message, Srila Prabhupada also offers adjustments to other statements that appear contradictory. To the impersonalists it appears that they are from the brahmajyoti because in any particular creation they may indeed be coming down from there. But before that they were with Krsna. It is sometimes said we are eternally conditioned, but that is only because we cannot trace out the exact moment when we departed from Krsna s lila. By comparing the state of the conditioned soul to a dreaming man, Srila Prabhupada implicitly gives an adjustment of the no one falls from Vaikuntha statements. The dreaming man simply thinks he has gone somewhere else. The conditioned soul may think he has left Krsna s lila, but actually he is still in touch with Krsna. In the same way, we are never out of Vaikuntha, but we are just dreaming that we are somewhere else. In other statements, Srila Prabhupada expresses this more explicitly. As we shall see, this view is also in harmony with the statements of the previous acaryas as well as the Srimad-Bhagavatam, which Jiva Goswami calls the topmost Vedic authority. OJ 2.4 Srila Prabhupada's Direct Answers to Direct Questions 2.4 SRILA PRABHUPADA S DIRECT ANSWERS TO DIRECT QUESTIONS 14

2.4.1 Introduction OJ 2.4.1 Introduction The conclusions outlined above find additional support in Srila Prabhupada s direct answers to questions about the origin of the jiva. These questions were put to Srila Prabhupada by disciples and followers in classes and letters. Sometimes Srila Prabhupada rhetorically raised them in his own classes. Specific answers given to specific questions, especially those that refer to the classic apparent contradictions in the jiva question, assume great importance for us as we attempt to arrive at an answer to the present controversy. The safest thing to do is to answer the questions the way Srila Prabhupada answered them. OJ 2.4.2 Actually he has not fallen 2.4.2 Actually he has not fallen The Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture (text 2.9.1) given by Srila Prabhupada on April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan, is one of the most important statements given by Srila Prabhupada on the origin of the jiva. I regard the crow and tal fruit message as having more weight, because it was given as a direct resolution to a controversy that had arisen in the Society. But the following excerpts from the Tokyo lecture are also quite striking in that they provide a way to resolve the statements by Srila Prabhupada that no one falls from Vaikuntha. To put it briefly, Srila Prabhupada says that we were originally with Krsna and are now in a situation where we think we have fallen. In this way, we can accept the literal meaning of Srila Prabhupada s very numerous statements that we do fall from the spiritual world and we can adjust the relatively few no fall statements in terms of a solution that Srila Prabhupada himself directly offers. We have not actually fallen, but we think we are fallen. Taking the opposite approach, we can, as some advocates suggest, take the no fall statements as literally true and adjust the fall statements in a way not directly offered by Srila Prabhupada (i.e., they are a preaching strategy ). In other words, we were never in the spiritual world with Krsna, but Srila Prabhupada sometimes said we were as a preaching strategy. The following lecture excerpts demonstrate that it would not be wise for us to follow this latter approach when Srila Prabhupada has taken another approach to the same problem we were in Vaikuntha and we just think we are fallen. Karandhara: Translation: Sri Sukadeva Gosvami said: O King, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is no meaning to the relationship of the pure soul in pure consciousness with the material body. It is just like the dreamer seeing his own body working. Prabhupada: So, purport? Karandhara: Purport. The question of Maharaja Pariksit is perfectly answered as to how a living entity began his material life, although he is apart from the material body and the mind. 15

Prabhupada: It is a very important question. Pariksit Maharaja inquired... Many people inquired that How the living entity was with Krsna, he became fallen in this material world? Is not done? This question is raised? So this question is answered here, that How the living entity who was with Krsna became fallen down in contact with this material qualities? So this is the answer. Read the translation. So here Srila Prabhupada is himself directly raising one of the specific questions that confront us today. It is clear that he accepts the premise of the question, namely that we actually were with Krsna in the spiritual world. The question is not whether or not we were with Krsna. Srila Prabhupada is accepting that. The question is why we left Krsna. Karandhara: Sri Sukadeva Gosvami said: O King, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead... Prabhupada: It is simply the influence of the material energy, nothing. Actually he has not fallen. Another example given is given. Just like the moon is covered with scattered cloud, the passing cloud. You have seen. Everyone has experience. The cloud passes, and it appears that the moon is moving. Have you seen this? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupada: Actually the moon is not moving. It is a maya, illusion. It appears that the moon is moving. But similarly, the living entity, because he is spiritual spark of the Supreme, it has not fallen. It has not fallen. But he is thinking, I am fallen. I am material. That is the reason. Try to understand. Have questions and answer. It is very important thing. Atma-maya rte rajan. Except atma-maya, the illusory energy... It is the maneuver or handling of the illusory energy of Krsna. This illusory energy develops when we forget Krsna. That s all. It is... In other words, this illusory identification of me with the body is simply due to my forgetfulness. We wanted to forget, we wanted to give up Krsna and wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore Krsna is giving us. So here Srila Prabhupada offers a way we can understand the few statements that he makes that no one falls from Vaikuntha. We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation. In our original situation we were with Krsna. Srila Prabhupada says we wanted to give up Krsna. There is no mention of originally being in the brahmajyoti, or the Viraja River, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed relationship with Krsna. Srila Prabhupada repeats these points throughout the lecture, as can be seen from the following excerpts. Prabhupada: Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a 16

man seeing dream: Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me! He is crying. Another man is, Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger? But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: The tiger has attacked me. Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation. Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by dream. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly, we have created this material world and activity. People are running, Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, identifying that Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors. All these things are created exactly like that, svapna drastur ivanjasa, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That s all. So the answer is, when somebody asks you that When one has become in contact with this material nature? He has not become in contact. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy. Just like the same example: A man is dreaming; there is no contact with tiger. Actually he has no contact with that. Similarly, actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krsna, so Krsna has given an opportunity: All right. Imitate. You want to be imitation king in the stage. So feel like this. Play like this. Do like this. People will applaud. Oh, a very nice king, very nice. * * * So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krsna consciousness. As soon as we understand that I have nothing to do with I am simply Krsna s servant, eternal servant, that s all, immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krsna conscious. Oh, Krsna is my eternal master. I am His servant. That s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen. The same example: Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming. We are not fallen. We can simply give up that illusory condition at any moment. At any moment. So if you study all these verses very nicely, you get all this knowledge quickly. * * * But the simple process is, as soon as you surrender, that you are not fallen, It was illusion, I was dreaming, I am Krsna s finished. All gone. I am Krsna s. I am Krsna s eternal servant. These are all nonsense he immediately becomes liberated. Just try to understand. Immediately, within a second. Liberation can be attained within a second, provided we abide by the order of Krsna. 17

Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja. This is the position. We are not fallen. We are thinking fallen. So we have to give up this nonsense thinking. Then we are liberated. There is no... Is there any difficulty to understand? Just see how important this verse. It is already there, but you are not reading. Each verse, read every day carefully. Try to assimilate, understand, and you will get more profit, every day, hundred yards forward, hundred yards forward, yes. They are so important verses. How nicely composed by Vyasadeva. In two lines the whole thing is explained. This is called sastra. In two lines. Then read the purport. Notice that Srila Prabhupada is calling this a very important verse, and he is repeating again and again his explanation and also calling it very important for the devotees to understand. He is raising the questions that confront us and answering them point by point. He is also offering a way to understand the statements that no one falls. Statements like these by Srila Prabhupada are addressed directly to the specific questions that confront us. They address these questions in a sustained way. Such direct, detailed, and comprehensive statements are worthy of more emphasis than isolated brief statements pulled from here and there, with no direct sign from Srila Prabhupada that they relate to the exact questions before us. Karandhara [reads purport]: The external energy is controlled by the Lord, and the living entities are controlled by the external energy by the will of the Lord. Therefore, although the living entity is purely conscious in his pure state, he is subordinate to the will of the Lord, being influenced by the external energy of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gita also the same thing is confirmed, that the Lord is present within the heart of every living entity and all consciousness and forgetfulness of the living entity are influenced by the Lord. Prabhupada: Yes. Because... Now, people may say that, Why Krsna within the heart gives one type of consciousness to one, and another type of consciousness...? Because I wanted. I wanted to forget Krsna, so Krsna is giving consciousness: All right, you can forget Me in this way. That is His kindness. Just like the Mayavadis, the so-called yogis and karmis, they wanted to forget. Krsna is giving him intelligence. All right. You forget Me like this. That s all. Go on. And if you want to again revive your relationship, Krsna will give you intelligence. Buddhi yogam dadami tam yena mam upayanti te: I shall give intelligence. So Krsna is... Ye yatha mam prapadyante. As you want, Krsna gives you facility. Karandhara [continues reading purport]: The living entities are illusioned by the will of the Lord because they wanted to become like Him. Prabhupada: Yes. Karandhara: As a person thinks of becoming a king without possessing the necessary qualifications, similarly, when the living entity desires to become the Lord Himself, he is put in a condition of dreaming that he is a king. Therefore the first sinful will of the living entity is to become the Lord, 18

and the consequent will of the Lord is that the living entity forgets his actual life and thus dreams of the land of utopia where he may become one like the Lord. The child cries to have the moon from the mother, and the mother gives the child a mirror to satisfy the crying and disturbing child with the shadow of the moon. Similarly, the crying child of the Lord is given over to the shadow of the material world to lord it over as a karmi and to give this up in frustration to become one with the Lord. Both these stages are dreaming illusions only. There is no necessity of tracing out the history when the living entity desired this, but the fact is that as soon as he desired such, he was put under the control of atma-maya by the direction of the Lord. Therefore the living entity in his material condition is dreaming falsely that this is mine and this is I. The dream is that the conditioned soul thinks of his material body as I or falsely thinks that he is the lord and that everything in connection with the material body is mine. Thus in dream only the misconception of I and mine persist life after life. This continues life after life as long as the living entity is not purely conscious of his identity as the subordinate part and parcel of the Lord. In his pure consciousness, however, there is no such misconceived dream. And in that pure conscious state the living entity does not forget that he is never the Lord, but he is eternally the servitor of the Lord in transcendental love. * * * Trivikrama: Srila Prabhupada? You were just saying that we are not fallen. Actually this is an illusion thinking that we are fallen. Yet I read... Prabhupada: The same example. In dream I am not attacked by the tiger, but I am thinking, Oh, tiger is there. It is simply dreaming condition. Trivikrama: But so many Vaisnavas are praying... Prabhupada: So as soon as you understand that This is not... I am not in contact with tiger, it is all a dream, then you are delivered. Similarly, as soon as you understand All this material condition of life we are simply dreaming; I am actually servant of Krsna, then you are liberated. That is Krsna conscious. If you keep in Krsna consciousness, that I am eternal servant of Krsna, then you are liberated.... Trivikrama: This feeling that we have, that we are fallen, that we are very fallen... Prabhupada: That is also illusion. That is also illusion. You are fallen means you have got some certain desires except service of Krsna. Therefore the conclusion is that if you keep yourself tightly in Krsna s service, there is no question of falling down or there is no question of maya. You see? In this lecture Srila Prabhupada is very clear. Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krsna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krsna s position, Krsna puts us into a dreaming state. In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and are thus free to act out our desire to become the supreme enjoyer. This state of forgetfulness and dreaming is sometimes 19