LOYOLA MARYMOUNT UNIVERSITY

Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Brown Dillon, 1970 October 24, 2010 Ubiqus/Nation-Wide Reporting & Convention Coverage 2222 Martin Street, Suite 212 Irvine, CA 92612 Phone: 949-477-4972 Fax: 949-553-1302

Irma Brown Dillon Interview [START IRMA_1.MP3] MS. KAYLA BEGG: Okay. First I just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to do this and I am sorry it is taking so long to coordinate this but I am glad finally [crosstalk] the interview. MS. IRMA DILLON: I am too. Is your home San Diego? MS. BEGG: Yeah. MS. DILLON: I figured as much. You are from San Diego. You try to go home on the weekends. MS. BEGG: Yeah. Yeah, sometimes definitely. Okay, I just wanted to start by asking you why you decided to attend Marymount College? MS. DILLON: Well, it was 1966 when I finished high school. I went to Jordan High School in Watts. It was the year after the Watts riots in 1965 that were well known all across the nation. MS. DILLON: Across the United States and probably maybe even around the world. And at that time Jordan was, despite being located in the heart of Watts, it was a very high achieving academic school in the LA Unified School District. MS. DILLON: And we were fortunate enough to have a good group of core teachers and counselors that really cared about the students and wanted to see them excel. It was through my counselor who was also my homeroom teacher that I, and someone else in the counseling office, that I even became aware of Marymount College. MS. DILLON: And she thought it would be a good match for me. I was not sure that I was ready to leave home. Meaning leave the greater Los Angeles area. It was far enough away to be not at home but close enough to still be around my family. Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 1

She suggested that I submit the application and the paperwork and I did. And I got accepted and I went. MS. BEGG: Why did you think that it would be a good match for you? MS. DILLON: Looking back I cannot honestly say that I totally remember. My focus at that time is that it was important to go to college. My parents were very firm and believed in that. But neither of them had had the benefit of a college education at that time. They were not really extremely helpful in the process. And again, we are talking 40 plus years ago. The world was quite different. There was no internet. There were no computers and word of mouth in that community where many of the young people of my age were first generation college students. You did not have a lot of foundational background at home. But they were aware of, obviously, my academic abilities and knew that I came from a religious home. My father was a Baptist minister. And just thought it would be a good match. And they said apply and I applied. MS. BEGG: Was the fact that it was a Catholic institution influence your decision at all? Did it give you any cause for concern? MS. DILLON: Probably more cost well, yes, it did influence my decision and it was cause for concern because Catholicism was a big mystery at that point. As I said, my father was Baptist. Most of the my friends were [background Noise]. We are back. MS. BEGG: Yeah. MS. DILLON: Okay. Catholicism was something kind of mystical and strange and was a very strict doctrine within the church and heaven and hell were kind of full of thy glory. And you did not it was just confusing. It was a I did not have a real understanding of what Catholicism was. It was just sort of intriguing. It was probably more intimidating than anything. Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 2

MS. DILLON: The fact that it was a Catholic college. MS. BEGG: Can you tell me about your first years at Marymount before the move to Loyola? MS. DILLON: Oh. They were fun, interesting, very different from, I guess, college is different from high school anywhere you go but there were very few minorities on campus. I think there were five identifiable African American females in my class of 85. And I think of the five, maybe only three of us were openly identified and chose to be identified. It was a culture shock in many aspects. There was a level and degree of wealth that none of us had ever known. We were with upper middle class and very wealthy young ladies who had come from very different backgrounds than ours. It was just sort of a mixture of learning about people, different cultures, different value. [END IRMA_1.MP3] [START IRMA_2.MP3] MS. DILLON: Systems. The nuns still wore habits in those days. The flying nun stories and everything covered up and the long black with the flowing belts. The ropes tied around their waist and - - and thing and they exercised. It was a very small campus. You could stand on one end of the campus and look to the other end and we were very isolated. It was interesting living in a dormitory for the first time, being away from home. Very strict rules and regulations. What you experience now as a freshman in college is absolutely nothing like what that experience where there were very strict rules and regulations in terms of the dormitories. We had curfews. We had dress codes. We had bed inspections. We had room inspections. You could not leave. The dormitory I want to say was three floors. Maybe it was four floors. And each floor had what they call a smoker on it. And then on the bottom floor was the formal living room. Well, you could not go into the formal living room unless you were appropriately attired, which meant that you had on a dress or a skirt. You had on nylons, pantyhose or you had on socks. You did not go barefooted. You did not go Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 3

barelegged. Flip flops were just totally not what a Marymount woman did. I mean, even if you had to go down to the administration building which was next to the dormitory. There were basically four buildings on campus. We had one dorm. We had the administration building. We had the classroom building. We had the library, the chapel and I think the cafeteria was attached to the chapel. It was a very small environment. But very rigid and very fixed. MS. DILLON: If you wanted to go mail a letter, the mailbox was downstairs. You had to go out of the building and into the front of the administration building. You had to get dressed. You did not just run out of your room in your cutoffs or your jeans or anything like that. MS. DILLON: If there was the slightest opportunity that you might be seen in public you were going to be appropriately attired. We. MS. BEGG: Wow. [laughter] MS. DILLON: Yeah. We kind of after a while, we realized that if you had an early morning class that you could get up and put on a pair of tennis shoes and socks and put on your trench coat and roll your pajamas up above your knees. That they would not show. MS. BEGG: Yeah. MS. DILLON: And remember not to cross your legs so that your trench coat would not come open and reveal the fact that you were not dressed. And the same thing in the dining room. You could not go in the dining room in pants or anything like that. You could miss a meal if you woke up late and forgot, and did not dress. And they would literally send you out of class or turn you around at the cafeteria door if you were not Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 4

attired. And if you wore a skirt it had to be the appropriate length and no miniskirts or any of that stuff. MS. DILLON: Short shorts or anything like that. We had room inspections. The nuns would come through and check your room to make sure that you were cleaning your room appropriately. That your bed was made and we had the rooms were what we called suites. There were two bedrooms and then a common bathroom and an outside area that had closets in it. MS. DILLON: Everything had to be in its proper place. And if it was not you got points. There was a point system. I want to say it was five points but maybe it was six. I do not know. Maybe it was ten. But whatever it was, you got points and if you reached that maximum number of points that you were allowed for the week, then on the weekend you were not allowed to leave the campus. MS. BEGG: Oh. MS. DILLON: They called, this was, like, you were campused [phonetic], which meant that you had to stay on campus from Friday until Sunday. You could not leave. MS. BEGG: Wow. MS. DILLON: And most of the girls did not have cars anyway. But we were on the top of a hill surrounded by the Pacific Ocean. MS. DILLON: And marine land. You could watch the dolphins out your bedroom window if you lived on that side of the dorm or you could watch the ocean on the back side. There was a Safeway Market down the hill. MS. DILLON: That would maybe be the equivalent of from where campus is to the Whole Foods. But it was down a hill on an unpaved, the road was paved but there were no sidewalks. It was an undeveloped area. Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 5

MS. DILLON: You could go down there and there was a Safeway and I think a bank, a drugstore, maybe a couple of other little retail estab-- [END IRMA_2.MP3] [START IRMA_3.MP3] MS. DILLON: but not much. They had a car. The nuns had a car that I think after you were a junior, maybe a senior, junior or senior, you could check out the car. Maybe there were two cars. MS. BEGG: Oh. MS. DILLON: You could check out the car and go down to Peninsula Center, which was the big shopping center in Palos Verdes at the time. MS. DILLON: You could do that and shop or go to dinner, go to the movies or something like that. But during the week, you had to be in at, I want to say 7. We had sign in, sign out cards at the front desk. And there was always somebody, we had a house mother. There was always somebody at the desk to monitor the sign in and sign out cards. MS. DILLON: And if you dared get back late you had to ring the doorbell. If you could not arouse a friend to get you up. MS. BEGG: Yeah. MS. DILLON: To get you in but it was hard to do that because the desk was positioned such that the door was in view. And the other doors had alarms on them. There were a lot of alarms that went off at night. After 7 during the week and I want to say 10 on the weekends. MS. BEGG: Hmm. MS. DILLON: Maybe, yeah, it was 10 on the weekends. It was midnight, I think, back when we moved over to Westchester. But that is how it was. That was life at Marymount College. MS. BEGG: Wow. Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 6

MS. DILLON: At that point. MS. BEGG: How was the academic setting? MS. DILLON: Rigorous. MS. BEGG: Very rigorous? MS. DILLON: Rigorous. The classes were small. You really had an opportunity to interact with the professors. There was always there was still clubs related to school activities or the subject matter. If you were taking French there was a French club. There was a Spanish club. There was a math club. That kind of thing. MS. DILLON: But it was a very rich academic environment and it was small enough that if it was very difficult not to do well. It was very difficult not to do well. Being that it was an all female college did that influence your decision to attend? Did you like it? Did you dislike it? How did you feel about it? MS. DILLON: I do not think it influenced my decision to attend. I thought it would be different and a good adventure. I had gone to public high school so they were co-ed. I did not have any misgivings or inhibitions about going because it was all female. MS. DILLON: It was, I guess, considered even though it was a college it was sort of more like a boarding school. And that was something that as an African American from a more depressed background and the thought of going to a boarding school was a special honor. That everybody did not get an opportunity to do that. And then we, even when we were in Palos Verdes we still had interaction with Loyola. If there were dances we were always invited. If there was an event that required escorts, the guys were always coming up on campus. I think if you were at Marymount you could still be - - at Loyola. Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 7

MS. DILLON: They came from all the women s colleges in the area. I do not know if they still, I guess they all come from Loyola with and Loyola now. I never thought about that until I just said it. But then, they came from Immaculate Heart or Mount Saint Mary s College. You could participate in those kinds of service organizations as well. MS. BEGG: Can you tell me about the transition to Westchester and you were there when [crosstalk], right? MS. DILLON: Right. I was there during the transition. I completed my sophomore year at Palos Verdes. MS. DILLON: And then we moved to the Westchester campus. It must have been in 68. MS. DILLON: And we were just an independent college on that campus. We were not Loyola Marymount University at that time. We were Marymount College at Loyola University. And they called it the affiliation. We were affiliated in that we shared the same campus area but McKay was the dorm that was built for the women. And between McKay and Bonderay [phonetic] Library there was nothing. There was all that space was empty. It was kind of like a border that the girls stayed on this side and the boys stayed on this side after sunset so to speak. We started to go to classes. We started to share classes but because we were so small, we were obviously always the minority in any classes that we took that were offered by Loyola. The initial thought or feeling was that we would just be subsumed into Loyola and that we would just [END OF IRMA_3.MP3] [START OF IRMA_4.MP3] MS. DILLON: Be all Loyola University. There was a very rich heritage and culture associated with the Religious of the Sacred Heart of Mary and Marymount. We were very adamant, just as adamant as the guys were that we were not going to just merge and to be Loyola University. That was a bit of a Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 8

challenge to recognize that the name was going to reflect both schools. We had two presidents initially. We had Sister Raymond McKay who was president of Marymount and - - who was the president at Loyola. Students played a big part in determining what things were important that we wanted to preserve as far as our culture was concerned. I think the building is now, what s the building right next to McKay? Is it a faculty center now? MS. BEGG: Currently, oh are you talking about the Alumni Center where everyone, I do not know the name of the building. MS. DILLON: Yeah, okay. MS. BEGG: But I know [crosstalk]. MS. DILLON: Yeah, that used to be the convent. MS. BEGG: Oh. MS. DILLON: Yeah. That s where the nuns lived, which was right next to where we lived and closer to the guys than we were. That was another buffer. MS. BEGG: Uh huh. MS. DILLON: To keep us separated. But all in all after a lot of negotiation and planning and time and conferencing and compromising it eventually became Loyola Marymount. But still respecting the traditions and the heritage of both schools. Dr. Bovey [phonetic] was the student body president at that time. She was the first female student body president at the Westchester campus when we were still, again, separate. And I was the second and we were still, again, separate. It was not until after I graduated that we actually merged the two universities for those first, I want to say, I know it was two years. Because I was there two more years. but I want to say for about the first five years or so we were still just an affiliation. MS. DILLON: And then the merger took place later on. Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 9

MS. BEGG: How would you describe the day to day dynamic after you moved from Palos Verdes to Westchester? Was it difficult to kind of mesh the two student body s together or was it a pretty fluid transition? What were some of the problems? MS. DILLON: There were some boys gone wild, some girls gone wild. Recognizing the boundaries, appreciating the boundaries. And as I said, the more integrated plan took place after I left but we still had separate residences since the guys did not live in McKay. MS. DILLON: They were not allowed beyond the first floor of McKay. We still had a curfew. We still had sign in and sign out. There were some changes, a more liberalization of the policies related to the young women. But still, cloistered, so to speak and respecting that Catholic tradition. The boys used to come up to PV from time to time and they used to - - call panty raids and they would fly panties on the flag pole. They would take the flag down and fly somebody s underwear up the flag pole kind of thing. And get caught and was very serious violation. Some guys might have even gotten kicked out of school for that but certainly were consequences associated with it. I can remember when we were still at Palos Verdes, at least one maybe a couple of students who were immediately terminated because they were found with marijuana. I do not know what the school policy is now. I would imagine that it is we still know it is against the law but I do not think that the reaction to that kind of violation is as serious now. MS. BEGG: Yeah. MS. DILLON: As it was then. MS. BEGG: They are more likely to get referred to Judicial Affairs now. MS. DILLON: Something like, right. MS. BEGG: It has to be automatically. MS. DILLON: - -. Sort of automatically gone. In the classroom environment it was competitive. Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 10

MS. DILLON: You had to kind of first you had to get the recognition of the professor that you were there and that you got called on and not called on to be called out. But called on as a real participant in whatever the learning environment was at that time or whatever was going on in the classroom. Then you had to prove yourself to the guys [END OF IRMA_4.MP3] [START OF IRMA_5.MP3] MS. DILLON: That you were just as intelligent and able to participate in the discussion as they were. They tended, at some point, not all of them. I mean, obviously this is kind of general, wanted to minimize your contribution, challenge your input. Whether it was right or whether it was wrong. It was just because you were a girl. MS. DILLON: Uh hmm. And we did start, that s interesting, they did start letting us wear pants to class once we got to Westchester. I think there was a little method to that, that madness. LMU is based on three principles, social justice, academic excellence, education of the whole person. How did these principles influence your education while you were a part of Marymount College? Did they influence your education? Did you feel like the school managed to meet those principles? MS. DILLON: I think so. I was saying to a group of the TLC students last Saturday. They had an event. MS. DILLON: Is that it is kind of like almost like darkness or light that you do not see it coming but it is. You are looking on the horizon and you can see that the sun is about to come up. But then all of a sudden it is just bright. You do not see the exact minute when it happens. And that is sort of how I feel about those principles. I think they become incorporated into who you are and what you do if you really take them seriously. And again, our environment was so much smaller than it is now. But, we were very big on social justice. And because Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 11

our environment was so small nobody, there was no under the radar. MS. DILLON: Everybody knew who everybody was and sort of made sure everybody was on point so to speak. Yeah, very much so. And I think that it probably very much has a significant baring on what I do today and just and always giving back and realizing that individuals make up the world. And that we all have a part to play and each has a responsibility to give back to others. And to be the best person that you can be. And if there is an opportunity for excellence, you owe it to yourself and everybody else to strive for it. MS. DILLON: I was an undergrad sociology major and I thought about teaching at one point. And after a brief experience in the education department, going out into the field and actually being on the high school campus in the classroom, decided that really was not what I wanted to do. MS. DILLON: I went to law school. But I have found that in my career as a lawyer I do the things, I have done the things that touch people s lives in a very personal way. I have always, now I do juvenile delinquency. I am a social worker. I am a parent. I am a judge. I am a mentor. MS. DILLON: All of those things. And I think it is very much a part of that social justice concept. And I have been asked many times, well why don t you, even as recent as today. The Governor, Gubernatorial candidate, Jerry Brown, was at our church with Gavin Newsome. And - - no, we want you to go up. We want you to do this. Like, well, that s not really what I want to do. I want to stay in a I do not want to read. Honestly, I do not mean I do not want to read but I want to do things that I can interact with people. I want to touch somebody s life. And I want to see how that person responds to that input. Whether it is physical or challenging them to do better at school. To be a better Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 12

person at home to yourself, to your parents, to your peers, to your siblings. When they get to me, most of the time, they have violated the law. And if they were adults, many of the things that they have done would be an end of the road kind of situation for them. But you being young and growing up, it is kind of part about making mistakes. And so you learn from those mistakes and kind of learn how to become a better person. And that there are consequences for behavior. There is also and the consequence could be positive. It could be, I guess you do not call it consequences when it is positive. But [END IRMA_5.MP3] [START IRMA_6.MP3] MS. DILLON: When it is negative, there is consequences but there can also be affirmations and accolades for doing well. MS. DILLON: Yeah, I think those principles are very much a part of what the university stands for and I think it did a good job then of bringing you out, that whole person. And I would imagine that it still does. MS. DILLON: But like everything else, I would also imagine that the challenge becomes greater as the population in our religious orders declines as evidenced by our first non- Jesuit president, Dave Burcham [phonetic]. That the not just the classroom environment but the overall environment is different. But I think that that underlying principle is still there and I think that is going to be one of our challenges going into the future is how we maintain that philosophy of those principles in educating the whole person, social justice. MS. BEGG: Would you say that when you attended Marymount College the general student population was Catholic? Was it a very? MS. DILLON: Primarily, yeah. MS. BEGG: Primarily. All right. Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 13

MS. DILLON: I will say it was probably close to maybe 80 percent or more Catholic. MS. BEGG: Okay. MS. DILLON: Obviously, it was not mandatory that you be Catholic and you did not have to attend Mass. MS. DILLON: There were what they called the, I guess they were called convocations or academic assemblies or something like that. Periodically we would have an assembly that we wore graduation gowns and white gloves and black patent leather shoes and sat in the chapel. And had a religious service or an academic awards ceremony of some kind. MS. DILLON: Yeah, I do not think they do that anymore do they? There is nothing in between starting, you do not wear a gown until you graduate, right? MS. BEGG: No. MS. DILLON: Okay. MS. BEGG: You do not wear one until you graduate. MS. DILLON: No. MS. BEGG: They do have convocation when you first get there and you are just supposed to dress semi-formal. MS. DILLON: Right. MS. BEGG: But other than that. MS. DILLON: We wore white gloves and black gowns and it was a very formal thing. MS. BEGG: Why would you have these assemblies? Were they just an at the end of the year awards ceremonies? MS. DILLON: Awards ceremony, just periodically I guess. Speaker, would be on campus. MS. DILLON: Those kinds of things. Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 14

MS. BEGG: Right. MS. DILLON: Yeah. And so those were mandatory. MS. BEGG: Obviously you attended LMU and lived in LA during a very interesting historical time. MS. DILLON: Uh hmm. MS. BEGG: Can you tell me a little bit about that? You said that you graduated right after the Watts riots and then obviously the late 1960s, early 1970s are huge in terms of activism and different movements. MS. DILLON: Uh hmm. MS. BEGG: Can you just start telling me about that? MS. DILLON: Well, I think you and my son were talking about a little bit. Do you know we had our--as good and Catholic and holy as we were we had our challenges and our issues and our demonstrations on campus for more recognition for minority students and money. MS. DILLON: For scholarships, programs. And that occurred during my, I want to say probably during my junior year. MS. DILLON: And that happened. And I think the school was very conscious. Father Maryfield [phonetic] was the president at that time and he was great. He did not take the typical reaction. And again, I think it is part of that social justice thing. That he really took the time to come in and meet with the students. Ordered food for everybody. And kept an in-house kind of thing. That this was an opportunity for self expression and for growth. And this is what was being reflected on campus because all college campuses all across the United States, there were all kinds of demonstrations. And rather than allow ours to take that next level and become violent and really jeopardize people s future, we were able to keep it internal. And really grow from it and recognize that there were needs that needed to be met. and that it was Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 15

the university s responsibility and obligation to address those. And I think they did a decent job. You do not make everybody happy with everything. We had some good athletes at the time. I have heard stories where some of them fought or felt that they did not get the support on the other end. MS. DILLON: From coaches and what have you. [END IRMA_6.MP3] START IRMA_7.MP3] MS. DILLON: When they were on their way out. MS. DILLON: That their counterparts got. And so that was an issue. But I find that that still exists today and it is not unique to LMU. It is not unique to a Catholic school. It is just kind of the way it is in athletics. MS. DILLON: The coaches have those that you cannot overlook. Then they have their favorites and they are human like everybody else and they promote how they want to. And everybody is not valued the same. MS. DILLON: I am not a big athlete, I am not a big sports person. I mean, athletics are. In many instances I think too much emphasis and focus is placed on them. But I know that that is one of the things that makes the university great. That is what attracts a lot - - that stuff. MS. DILLON: I live with it. But it is more important to me that young people in school can read and write and can speak and can think. If they have athletic ability on top of that, that is fine. But I have seen so many cases where young people get passed through the system because they are good athletes. Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 16

MS. DILLON: And then if they become injured or no longer able to perform as athletes, they have also not been under girded to have the ability to function in where they are in that environment and that support system falls out. And so you get, it becomes not just a statistic but it messes up their minds, their spirits, their heart. It sort of further victimizes. It victimizes it takes them from a hero to a victim, so to speak. And I think I have seen it too many times impact young people s lives and in my job in juvenile delinquency. If I see an average of 200 kids a week. If 150 of them are guys, 140 of them think they are going to the NBA or the NFL. MS. DILLON: And I just think that that is too much of a priority on sports and athletics. And they cannot put a sense together. Their critical thinking skills or are bypassed. MS. DILLON: And that is just a personal thing with me. But it is a very personal thing. MS. BEGG: Are these concerns with the athletic relationships at LMU a part of the reasons why the take over of Maryfield s office? [crosstalk] MS. DILLON: I think that was part of it as well. [My memory is that the primary focus of the student demonstration/sit-in of the administration building was to secure additional funds for scholarships of African American students and funding of off-campus housing for students and that many of the key players were athletes.] I am sure that there are [crosstalk]. Well that is what I was going to say. I was either student body president or vice president at the time. I really did not participate. I was not one of the ones who sat in. MS. DILLON: I sort of, I did participate from the extent of representing the student body when it came down to the resolution of it. But because I was not directly involved in Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 17

that I do not have as, probably as good a memory of it as some others might. MS. DILLON: What the other issues and concerns were. MS. BEGG: How did the Civil Rights Movement affect the campus? Did it affect the campus at all? Was it kind of isolated and insular? What was it [crosstalk]? MS. DILLON: No, I think it did. And I think that I am probably an example of that because even though I was in the minority I was very integrated into the community MS. DILLON: The campus and achieved a lot of leadership roles that I obviously could not have done without the support of non-african Americans. I think that that was part of that social justice creating the whole person. MS. DILLON: That the kids who were there believed in those principles. [END OF IRMA_7.MP3] [START OF IRMA_8.MP3] MS. DILLON: And recognized that they were not the only ones who had those kinds of abilities. I mean, they were supportive. We got a lot of support. I got a lot of support. MS. DILLON: And made friends that have been long lasting and I maintain a very close relationship with the university for the last 40 years. And when I think about it, this year, the grand reunion, this was my 40 th. Like, wow. I cannot believe it was that long. Where did the time go? What has happened? But it is kind of like I said, the sun is coming. You cannot tell when but all of a sudden it is daylight. MS. DILLON: And that is how I look at that. It is, like, oh God, all of a sudden it is 40 years later. And I cannot remember Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 18

a time when LMU has not had a very prominent role in my life. And I was very happy when my son decided to go to school there. MS. DILLON: And I think it was a good mix for him. He had other opportunities. He got accepted at SCN at Pepperdine and Morehouse and where else? There is another school in Georgia. I cannot think of it. But he had other options. He had other options. MS. DILLON: But he chose to go to LMU and he enjoyed his college experience. And so yeah, there were - -. We had demonstrations and sit ins and when things would happen on other campuses across the country there was may have been a candlelight vigil or whatever to support and acknowledge what was going on in other places. We had rallies and speakers who were very active participants in the Civil Rights Movement. I think I remember one year, one assembly, and this is before we left Palos Verdes. We had Dr., at that time he was Ron Coranga [phonetic]. I think he is Mahlahana [phonetic] Coranga or something like that. But he was the founder of Kwanzaa [phonetic]. MS. BEGG: Hmm. MS. DILLON: Which is the African American holiday celebration that comes right after Christmas. He was actually a speaker on our campus. MS. BEGG: Wow. MS. DILLON: At that time. Yeah, we were able to bring in divergent views. They were very open to allowing us to be exposed and appreciated that it was important that, not only, that we have that kind of exposure for our own edification and self esteem and growth. But that the non-african American students or non-minority students were able to be exposed to another perspective. Going off of that topic, how diverse was the campus when you attended? Obviously, you said that when you were at Palos Verdes you were one of five African American women. Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 19

MS. DILLON: Not very. MS. BEGG: It was not very diverse even as time went on while you were there? MS. DILLON: Well I was only there for two more years. MS. BEGG: That s true. MS. DILLON: Yeah. I mean, it grew. MS. DILLON: It grew. But I guess we had enough students to have a Black Student Union and made there were 30 men and women combined over the class years. Because there would have been four classes. Three classes that came after me by the time I graduated. Each one would have had similar numbers and then young men. And I think we probably had more, maybe more women than men or maybe it was equally balanced. I do not know. Kind of gets vague at this point. MS. BEGG: Was there ever any did anybody ever clash over the issue? Were there any problems regarding race or ethnicity or was it a pretty accepting environment? What was it like in terms of that perspective. MS. DILLON: Well I am sure there were. I am sure there were individual issues. MS. DILLON: People are people. You are going to have aggressive, non-intolerant folks, stupid, ignorant folks wherever. I am sure there were personal issues. I can remember the graduation in 1970. I was a graduation speaker. And the local newspaper likened me to Angela Davis because I had a natural. And she was head of the Black Panther Party then. And how could the university stoop to that level to have this African American woman speaking at the graduation? On stage with priests and these good Catholic girls and stuff. And I needed to go back to - - and do the [END IRMA_8.MP3] Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 20

[START IRMA_9.MP3] MS. DILLON: And all that kind of stuff. Yeah, it kind of reminds me of how they feel about the master plan. Growing the university. MS. DILLON: Yeah, there were clashes and there were classroom things. When I mentioned that TLC event that I went to last weekend, last Saturday. MS. DILLON: And one of the young ladies there who was very much behind me said on her door she started it, the Westchester campus. At least, I want to say ten years after I did, eight to ten years after I did. That she had the nigger on her door signs. But that happened two years ago, three years ago. I remember being called back on campus because there were things being placed up in the dorms on doors. MS. DILLON: And effigies being hung on campus and stuff. I mean, I think racism is just a part of our society and, excuse me, LMU is not exempt from that. I noted that you served in the student government. Can you tell me why you decided to get involved with student government? MS. DILLON: Oh well, I mean, I had been involved in high school and my thought was, now here I was the little black girl on campus from Watts. And here are all these wealthy, well bred, protected females with this high Catholic virtues and values. But had no experience, very little in terms of real life. Really living. They went from their parents home to the nuns. And everything was regulated. Everything was controlled. There was no, how are you going to develop your mind if everybody tells you everything you have to do. What you eat. What time you go to bed. What you can wear. And how does that create any creativity or independent thinking or self, growth? Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 21

MS. DILLON: I think my ideas were probably considered as radical but interesting and exciting. And to me they were conscious every day little things that it was as foreign to me that they did not have those privileges as it was to them that oh, we can do this. That we can challenge the nuns on some things. And we can ask for less restrictions or whatever it was. You started at Marymount in Palos Verdes. MS. DILLON: I started as freshman class president. I think my sophomore year I was student body treasurer. My junior year, I do not know, there was some office. I cannot remember what it was right now. Maybe it was secretary or whatever and then my senior year, maybe it was it - - vice president. Then my senior year I was student body president. Yes, I was always very actively involved. Because I was I knew the faculty well. I knew the administration well. MS. DILLON: And yes, it sort of could be up close and personal in terms of really understanding the values and what the university stood for. And now LMU is a major, I would say, university on the campus scene. It has grown tremendously. And not just size wise, the development of the campus but we have a much broader base of students coming from all over. Now we did have foreign students then as well. But there were just a few. MS. BEGG: - -. MS. DILLON: It is kind of like seeing a child grow. MS. DILLON: You see something start very small and then grow and blossom into what LMU is today. And it just feels good to be a part of that. To still be associated with it. To see it now and to appreciate from where it came. And to, I am on campus quite a bit. To interact with the students. Some know who I am, some do not. MS. BEGG: Hmm. Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 22

MS. DILLON: I do not wear a name tag most times unless it is necessary for the event. But there is just something for me that is very kind of peaceful and tranquil when you come on the campus. I mean, everybody knows it is a beautiful campus. Just sort of [END IRMA_9.MP3] [START IRMA_10.MP3] MS. DILLON: Coming here puts you in a different space. MS. BEGG: Yeah. MS. DILLON: Yeah. Even if there are problems you come believing that there is a solution in a way to work them out. And that we are academically competitive and our rankings are good. We are the best in this and the best in that. But that we are still turning out good people. When you were involved in student government, what were the major issues that you dealt with? And did you feel that the administration responded to them or was it difficult to get a response out of the administration? MS. DILLON: No, they responded. I mean, we have the newspaper. Same kind of things you face now. What could the newspaper publish and what could it not. We had KXLU. We had the radio station. What was appropriate for broadcasting for the women. What I said earlier, we worked on just some very basic fundamental kinds of things that you set standards. But you have to teach or generate an appreciation for adherence without all these checks and balances. And 1968, 69, that you did not need to have a nun to come in and tell you whether you made your bed right or not. And what was the purpose of being campused. Is there a better way to deal with non-compliant issues? What is it that you are really trying to teach? Why is it important to have, well to have standards, to have. Still developing time for young women and that there is going to come a time when you are going to have make decisions for yourself. And college should be where that starts, where you learn and open up the possibility. MS. BEGG: Just to clarify. Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 23

MS. DILLON: Uh hmm. MS. BEGG: When you moved to the Westchester campus, was it still two separate student governments? MS. DILLON: Yes. MS. BEGG: You were only in charge of Marymount s student government. MS. DILLON: Uh hmm. MS. BEGG: Okay. MS. DILLON: Uh hmm. MS. BEGG: Because I know that at one point they did decide to merge. MS. DILLON: They did merge. That happened, yeah, that happened much later. No, we had two student body, we had two everything. MS. BEGG: Okay. MS. DILLON: We had two college presidents, two student body presidents, two student governments. But the two student governments sat as one. MS. DILLON: Representing each school. But we each had their own officers but we all kind of worked together on some issues but we were still independent to our school. MS. BEGG: Okay. I have a note here that you were involved in Griffin Circle. MS. DILLON: Uh hmm. MS. BEGG: Can you tell me about that and what it was like to be a part of that service organization during this time? MS. DILLON: Oh, because I cannot remember. [laughter] I still have my pin. I do not remember what we did. I really do not. What is Griffin Circle? I know it is a service organization. But what did it? MS. BEGG: Currently it is an all female service organization. MS. DILLON: Uh hmm. Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 24

MS. BEGG: They are considered among the student population to be the more spiritual female service org. MS. DILLON: Okay. MS. BEGG: I am not a Griffin. I am not a part. I cannot. MS. DILLON: It was like the counterpart to the Crimson Circle. MS. DILLON: Yeah. They had Crimson Circle. We had Griffins. Yeah. And I do not know what we did. MS. BEGG: That is okay if you do not remember. MS. DILLON: I do not remember. I mean, it might come back at some point. I do not know. It seems to me that it might, at some point, had something to do with academics and the service. MS. DILLON: That you had to have a certain GPA and then I do not know, you were, like, unofficial ambassadors for the school. And you would serve at public events or if there were guests on campus you were hostesses or whatever it was. We might have had projects that we did within the community. We might have picked a school and in a culturally deprived area and gone out and done a student project or tutored for the kids or something like that. MS. DILLON: Yeah. MS. BEGG: You mentioned that you went to law school. MS. DILLON: Uh hmm. MS. BEGG: After you graduated. [END IRMA_10.MP3] [START IRMA_11.MP3] MS. BEGG: Did you go to Loyola? MS. DILLON: I did go to Loyola, yes. Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 25

MS. BEGG: How did that compare to your experience as an undergraduate at Marymount College? MS. DILLON: Well, law school is very, very different from college. MS. DILLON: Well, I do not know, it is not obvious. You certainly, at that point, independent from your parents even if you are still living at home. You can do the social, be active kind of thing. But you have still got to brief those cases, make those classes. MS. DILLON: Do all of those things that it takes to get through law school. And it was a challenge. Yeah, it was a challenge. I was active there as well with the black law students or association and represented the law school and the African American students at the national level. MS. DILLON: Still small. Same kind of growth. Exponentially as with LMU, we had one building. I guess we have a whole campus there now. We had one building and we had priests who were teaching at the law school but not nearly in the number that you had in the undergraduate school. And I cannot say that the subject matter that we studied in law school really took a bent toward, did not matter if you were Catholic or Atheist or Baptist or whatever it was. You either briefed the cases and understood the law or you were in trouble. MS. BEGG: Uh huh. MS. DILLON: Uh hmm. MS. BEGG: Why did you attend Loyola Law School? Why did you pick that law school? MS. DILLON: It was close. I was obviously hooked on the whole Loyola thing at that point. I, as I said, decided I did not want to do teaching. Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 26

MS. DILLON: I guess just kind of wanted to do the law thing. And I felt a certain level of comfort in staying in an environment that I already knew. MS. DILLON: Uh hmm, that there was still a lot of uncertainty and going, proving yourself, paving your way somewhere else. MS. DILLON: When you have already kind of established it. And my home is in Los Angeles. My family was in Los Angeles. I wanted to stay. MS. DILLON: In Los Angeles and so Loyola was a good match for that. MS. BEGG: How did your sociology degree translate into your law degree? How did that lead into [crosstalk]? MS. DILLON: Well, as I said, since I have been out of law school most of where I have spent my practice time has been with youth. I would say probably 75 percent or more of the time that I have been in law I have been in assignments where I dealt with children. MS. DILLON: And so that is where I think the sociology comes into play. And paralleling, developing the whole child is that when you are in the juvenile justice system or the dependency or delinquency system, that you are developing a whole family. MS. DILLON: It is not just a child who has gone astray and violated the law. Picked up a petty theft or start using drugs or those kinds of things. That you have got to really work with that entire family. MS. DILLON: For that kid to be successful. And so understanding that the mindset of the family and that interaction. I think the sociology background was just sort of a natural to be Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 27

able to do those things and still allows me to do that whole person thing. MS. DILLON: But also have the law behind it. MS. BEGG: Just out of curiosity, what was the sociology department at Marymount College at Loyola University like? Was it rigorous? Did you like it? MS. DILLON: I did. I liked it. I remember some of the professors that I had then. And the class was response it was very interactive. MS. DILLON: It was not just classroom. We did projects. We did, when I say projects we worked with kids. We worked with families. We worked in community agencies. That you could take what you the subject matter [END IRMA_11.MP3] [START IRMA_12.MP3] MS. DILLON: The philosophy of the principle that you got out of the textbook and apply it in the community. And actually working with people as we go on field trips and excursions and those kinds of things. And really just sound it out. It was not just a classroom environment. It was a hands on, active, interactive kind of thing. Going back to Loyola Law School, how would you describe the students that went there? Were a lot of them undergraduates from Loyola or Marymount? Was it primarily men or primarily women? MS. DILLON: Primarily men, not necessarily previously associated with the undergrad school. Very diverse background but still primarily Anglo Saxon. Primarily male. Females were still fighting for equality. MS. DILLON: Even as far as dress in the courtroom. When I started practicing law we could not wear pants to court. Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 28

MS. BEGG: Wow. MS. DILLON: Judges would turn you around and send you out if you wore pants into their courtroom. Not being recognized at the table. Because like I said, in student government or during the transition, merger, but I sort of find that to be true. It is maybe the last ten years I have seen with the women s movement a change in that. But it is kind of always been fighting to not once you get at the table to be heard. MS. DILLON: To be heard. That you are at the table and that you got there because you have the same credentials, same foundation that everybody else around the table has. You might look different but the under girding is all the same. And so getting that recognition was a challenge and with the professors. There were not that many. I want to say maybe three, five African American women in the class. There was certainly a number of non-african American women. Gloria Allred was in my class at the law school. MS. BEGG: Hmm. MS. DILLON: Professors could be I can remember being told I was not law school material. And I was not going to make it. Yeah. I am sorry, go ahead. MS. DILLON: And so we had to do the same kind of bonding. Maybe even more so there than on the undergrad level. Because there was not a community. Nobody lived there as opposed to when you lived on a college campus. You were in campus and then everybody on campus, in class and everybody spread and went their own way. You kind of had to bond with them, your group, your study group or whatever it was to fight the challenges. And sometimes we were not invited to be in study groups. MS. DILLON: And you had to beat the odds. Yeah, okay, I am going to make it and I am staying. How do you feel a law degree from a Catholic institution differs from a law degree say at a more secular Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 29

institution? Do you feel it differs at all? Does it influence your degree? MS. DILLON: I am one of those that if your objective is to have a degree you get a degree from the place where you can best get and fit in. MS. DILLON: Someone said the other day, you get in where you fit in. And what you do with a degree is what matters. I am not caught up and I know that Harvard, Yale, Stanford, da, da. That there is a ranking and hierarchy. I do not think that that applies as much in my environment, in my community. Because so few of us meet that criteria. And if you do, you are subsumed into the greater part of it. You are into the greater society. You are not recognizable. I think that it is really an individual thing. That you can do with what you want, what you have, what you want to do. MS. DILLON: After I graduated from law school, I taught in a law school for [END IRMA_12.MP3] [START IRMA_13.MP3] MS. DILLON: A while. It was unaccredited law school but the mayor was one of our students. He is now the Mayor of Los Angeles. He went to an unaccredited law school. He has been the Speaker of the State Assembly. It depends on what you want to do. MS. DILLON: And I think certainly from the Catholic I do not think it makes you. You got to pass the Bar for whatever state. You get no points up or points off because of the school you went to. MS. DILLON: I think if you have the ability to pass the Bar exam, you can do what you want to do. If you went to one of those prestigious schools it might help open some doors if you want to go on that track, up the corporate partnership track. Centennial History Project Interview: Irma Dillon 30