The Axe Files - Ep. 1: Bernie Sanders

The Axe Files - Ep. 1: Bernie Sanders Released September 28, 2015 [00:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And now, from the University of Chicago Institute of Politics, "The Axe Files" with your host, David Axelrod. DAVID AXELROD, "THE AXE FILES" HOST: I'm going to say something that I know won't poll well, I love politics and I love politicians. I've been hanging with them all my life, engaged in a running conversation that I often wish I could share with others. That's what "The Axe Files" is all about. I want to have real conversations, honest conversations, with my fellow practitioners in politics, in journalism, to go beyond the usual political speak and give you a richer sense of who they are, what they do and what drives them. This is my first podcast and who better to kick off with than the least likely rock star in American politics, Senator Bernie Sanders. Bernie and I had a chance to talk about everything from his passion for the Brooklyn Dodgers to his surprising position on gun rights to the state of American politics and the American worker. Bernie's been given some fiery speeches, but in this conversation, which we recorded in the backseat of a van from O'Hare to the University of Chicago, I got to know Bernie a little better and I hope you do, too. Let me set the stage here, we're in a van, hurdling toward the University of Chicago for an event at the Rockefeller Chapel and Adephis (ph) that was built as a monument to the greatest monopolist, one of the icons of the Gilded Age, the last gilded age, John D. Rockefeller. And we're going there with Senator Bernie Sanders, the bane of the billionaires, the hot poker of the wazus of the politicrats (ph). Senator, I hope this doesn't make me you uncomfortable appearing in Rockefeller Chapel. SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: Not at all, that's -- I went to the University of Chicago and I'm just thinking that is exactly the building in which I graduated and that's where they hold -- AXELROD: Yes. SANDERS: -- graduation ceremonies. AXELROD: Yes. SANDERS: I know the building well. AXELROD: Although this time, I -- they have fears of the phantom of the opera type of thing where the organ starts playing and we hear the ghost of Rockefeller. If we do, we'll get you out of the building quickly. Talk to me about the University of Chicago. You know, in doing research for this chaff, I found a photo of a tall, lanky, dark haired fellow waiting a seat in, I don't want to overdo the research part, it's actually on your Wikipedia page. But, what -- tell me about that. Tell me about what you were doing. SANDERS: Well, that was about as the early '60s when I was at the University of Chicago. It turned out that the University owns segregated housing. And I was a part of a group called the Congress of Racial Equality, CORE, which, at that point, was one of the most significant civil rights groups in the country. And what we did is we sent couples in, we'd send a blank couple in and we'd send a few hours later a white couple in the university on housing. And what would happen is, the black couple was told that, sorry, that we're just -- no departments available. And then two hours later, suddenly those very single departments became available for the white couple. And, all of that ended up with a seat-in demonstration at the administration office. AXELROD: First seat in until ever at the University of Chicago. Ep. 1 Sen. Bernie Sanders 1

SANDERS: That is my understanding. And, so that was significant and I think paved the way for the significant improvement of University of Chicago's housing policies. Later on, I and a number of other people also became involved in the issue of segregated schools in Chicago. And we were involved in some demonstrations on that. But -- AXELROD: Yes, let me ask you about that, so talk about Chicago at that time. What was Chicago like, and it was in the peak of the daily machine. SANDERS: Right. AXELROD: What is -- so you got thoroughly engaged in the community? SANDERS: I wouldn't say thoroughly engaged, but, you know, I did become engage and I think what I'll mention to the students today is that for me, at least, I learned as much, if not, more off campus than I did on campus. AXELROD: I was a student there, I would say the same. SANDERS: Your experience as well, yes. So, off campus, so I became involved in the civil rights movement, in the peace movement, learned a lot about democratic socialism. AXELROD: So, it sounds like you spend more time outside the classroom than inside the classroom. SANDERS: Well, and let's be honest and acknowledge that I was not one of the best students that the University of Chicago ever had. AXELROD: We've led parallel lives. Yes, I'm in that same category. [00:05:00] In fact, we have that parallel lives because my father was an immigrant from Eastern Europe. He fled the pilgrimage (ph) your father, the Holocaust, I grew up in New York City, went through the New York City public schools. I grew up in that very kind of left activism, you know, period in New York City. Tell me about how your experiences back because you didn't just arrive out of the womb as a democratic socialist. You -- maybe you did. SANDERS: Well, I'll tell you, my family -- you know, the neighborhood that we grew up in (inaudible) because I'm Democrat, I don't know that people voted republican. But, my family was not political. My brother introduced me to life (ph). He was -- got involved in the young democrats support, went college and would drag me up -- when he have to baby sit me, would drag me out to meetings. So I learned a lot from him. He brought books into our house which did not have a lot of books. AXELROD: What did your dad do? SANDERS: My father was a paint salesman, would left Poland at the age of 17, dropped out of high school. My mom graduated high school and raised the two kids. So we grew up in a three and a half room rented troll pop in (ph) in Brooklyn in a pretty solidly low and middle-class label. AXELROD: I grew up in status town (ph) so -- in Manhattan -- (CROSSTALK) AXELROD: -- sort of the same deal. So, when you got to the University of Chicago, were you already like deeply interested in social justice issues, politics (inaudible)? Ep. 1 Sen. Bernie Sanders 2

SANDERS: I wouldn't say deeply interested, I would say instinctually interested, you know. AXELROD: Why? SANDERS: That is a damn good question, David, and I definitely figured out the answer to that, you know, not just for me but for anybody. AXELROD: Yes. SANDERS: But, you know, as a kid, I never like to see the big guys pick on the little kids, you know how that happens in the schoolyard and all that stuff. So I kind of had an instinct for whatever reason against, you know, powerful people pushing around less powerful people. But, certainly that was not honed in any intellectual way at all. I really did not know a whole lot. And at the University of Chicago, I think it's fair to say a lot of my ideas developed in class, off campus, talking and learning from a lot of people. AXELROD: Just as aside, you've been a bit of an athlete back -- AXELROD: -- and a baseball fan, too? AXELROD: Dodgers stand. Of course, the Dodgers, what kind of question. Relatively in (ph) Brooklyn, no. AXELROD: My dad, when he first got here as an immigrant, the first thing he did was learn how to play baseball and play with Hank Greenberg and -- SANDERS: Oh, wow. (CROSSTALK) AXELROD: And, so we were always at the ballpark. But, he -- SANDERS: With what, polygrams (ph) or? AXELROD: Well, we started there but then Shay (ph), when the -- because I was a little bit younger. But, we would -- but -- and we (inaudible) staying, but my father registered you. I tell you this because you'll appreciate it. It would refer to the antithesis, the portrait of corporate privilege. SANDERS: Well, it's funny. I mean, when the discussion began about the Brooklyn Dodgers were an enormously important institution to Brooklyn going far beyond frolics (ph) and baseball, like we're part of the fabric of our society. And it was -- what people talked about the Brooklyn Dodgers possibly moving, people didn't understand. Kids didn't understand. What does that mean? What -- all the Brooklyn Dodgers, they are owned by the people of Brooklyn. How can it possibly be that somebody can move them? We really did not understand that concept. And, you know, in Brooklyn at that time, they would talk about some of the most hated figures of the period, and there were people -- they would talk about Hitler, Stalin and Walter O'Malley, but not necessarily in that order. AXELROD: Walter O'Malley has been the owner of the Dodgers who shipped them off to L.A. Ep. 1 Sen. Bernie Sanders 3

SANDERS: Right. AXELROD: Yes. Is that what turned you against big corporations, the -- SANDERS: Well -- AXELROD: -- Dodgers moving? SANDERS: Yes, I wouldn't say that was the only thing, but, no, that was a boot lock (ph), which impacted Brooklyn in a very synthetic way. AXELROD: Now again, back to Chicago in the '60s, you were involved in SNIC (ph), you're involved in a lot of -- SANDERS: Not SNIC, we were involved in CORE, and what we did is we worked -- you know, we mostly focused on local issues but we provided modest financial support to our brothers and sisters in the south, people like John Lewis (ph) (inaudible). AXELROD: And, in fact, you went to the march on Washington's Day, right? SANDERS: Yes, I did. AXELROD: So you heard Dr. King's speech. SANDERS: Yes, I was (inaudible). AXELROD: What was your -- do you remember that at all? SANDERS: Of course, I do. That was an extraordinary moment, seeing so many people. And obviously, King was a towering figure. And the whole day, you know, that was the day that I will never forget, it's extraordinary. AXELROD: Now, the -- as the '60s evolved, the war became the big issue. [00:10:04] Were you -- did your activism move into the anti-war space? SANDERS: Yes, yes. Not a whole lot, that wasn't the most active anti-war activist but I certainly was very, very opposed to the war in Vietnam and went through more than one demonstration and opposition for war. AXELROD: And you applied for conscientious objector status back then, is that right? SANDERS: Yes, that's right. AXELROD: Did that -- did you get it? SANDERS: No, what ended up happening at that point at least the process was rather prolong, and what ended up happening is by the time it was finished, I was over the age of which you could be drifting. AXELROD: Do you -- did you consider yourself a conscientious objector then, because the status, you know, is about war generally and you can't say, "I oppose this war", you'd have to say, "I oppose all war." Ep. 1 Sen. Bernie Sanders 4

SANDERS: Well, but my view was at that point is that needless to say, I fought at war, should be the last resort. I was very, very much opposed to the war in Vietnam, absolutely. AXELROD: Let me ask you a question about this, because you're suddenly now a very high candidate for president of the United States. If you were elected president of the United States, you would be the commander in chief. How does -- how is that square with your views that were formulated back then and your views that you have now? SANDERS: Well, it squares in the sense, I voted against the war in Iraq. After listening to what Bush and Jaime (ph) and Roosevelt (ph) and others have to say -- AXELROD: Go fors, right, you voted against the go for as well? SANDERS: Yes, I voted against the first go for, that's right. But in the war in Iraq, after listening to what these guys have to say, I concluded they were not telling the truth. And if you go to my website, or just go to YouTube and find the concerns that I had back in 2002, 2003, sadly enough, much of the -- many of the concerns that I have turned out to be true. Having said that, I voted for the war in Afghanistan because I thought that bin Laden have to be brought to justice and obviously the government of Afghanistan, the Taliban, were not cooperating. I voted when President Clinton did his best to try to stop the ethnic cleansing that was going on in Hazaras. So, my view is that a great nation like ours should be prepared to use force but it should be the last resort. I strongly support what the President is today trying to do in Iran, stop Iran from getting a nuclear weapon but do it without going to war. So, we have a military, that military may well have to be used on certain occasions. But I am the former chairman of the Senate Veterans Committee and I learned about the cause of war in a way that many people do not fully appreciate, the kind of suffering that those wars have brought about. So, yes, we have got to be prepared to use military force but it should be the last resort. I got to tell you something, David, I get really amazed and said at -- and many of my Republican colleagues read obligedly (ph), you know, talk about -- or all against disagreement with Iran and we always have the military option. It's not going to be their kid is getting killed in those wars. And I think, again, war, military action is always an option, it should be the last option. AXELROD: Should it be that -- in a way, the reasons that we all seemed sort of isolated is you sort of hinted this from the cause of these decisions is that 1 percent of the -- SANDERS: That's right. AXELROD: -- population -- SANDERS: That is right. AXELROD: -- ends up fighting the war. SANDERS: That's right. AXELROD: Should there be a draft, should there be some sort of national service that requires the burden to be shared (ph)? SANDERS: No, I don't -- no, I'm not in favor of the draft. But, just in terms of the post war, many people are aware that we lost 6,700 brave Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan but many came home without legs and arms and eyesight. But many people do not know, is that some 500,000 came home with posttraumatic stress disorder and traumatic brain injury and these are life-altering diseases. Not easily cured, which means that tens and tens of thousands of families have suffered as a result of that war, divorce Ep. 1 Sen. Bernie Sanders 5

rate, very, very high. Children impacting suicide rate of the chart. That is the cause of the war. And before people talked about, "Oh, well, war is, you know, war." Understand what that means. AXELROD: Yes, I sat with the President as he made some of these decisions just in troops into battle and also when he got -- when he went and greeted the coffins -- SANDERS: Right. AXELROD: -- when they returned at Dover. And I don't think there's -- by far, those were the most sobering moments. Are you prepared to make those kinds of -- AXELROD: -- decisions and deal with that? Do you think about that? [00:15:00] SANDERS: Sure. Look, it's -- this is a very dangerous and crazy world. I mean, we look at ISIS, we look at Al-Qaeda, we look at the harass (ph) every single day. And, you know, we have a military for our purpose. We are in coalition with other countries. And by the way, I believe we have got to strengthen those coalitions. I'm not a great fan of American unilateral action. I think we should be working as closely as possible with our allies and in countries in the gulf region. But as I said, we have a military for a reason. We have the most powerful military in the world and if it is necessary to use our military, I certainly would be prepared, absolutely, to do that. AXELROD: Let me just return to the narrative of your life a little bit. In the '70s, you are kind of a polemicist in Vermont and you ran for office four times under the banner of the Liberty Union Party. What was the Liberty Union Party? SANDERS: Liberty Union Party was a third party in the state, outside of the Democrats and the Republicans. And in fact, it was a party that came around, very small party, that focus primarily on economic issues and on the war in Vietnam. And those were the two main motivating factors. And, you know, it's a party that had no money. I suspect ways that most of the few thousand dollars, maybe not even that, did not do any advertising or anything, but it -- I enjoyed my participation in it. AXELROD: You must have. You did it a lot. SANDERS: I did it. I ran for the Senate and then I got 2 percent. Then I ran for governor, I got 1 percent. And then I ran for the Senate again against Pat Leahy and I got 4 percent. And I ran for governor again, I got 6 percent. AXELROD: Do you figure if you ran enough (ph), you could add up all those numbers and get to a majority? Somebody told me that's the way it works, but I heard that not to be accurate. But then what happen is I kind of, you know, gave up on that and back in -- then in 1981, some, you know, people often said people come up to you. This was true actually. People did. They say, you know, "You got a shot to become mayor of the city of Burlington, because you did pretty well in certain of the awards (ph) in Burlington." And I ran as an independent, not as a third party. AXELROD: You never ran as a Democrat before, have you? This is like a new thing for you. SANDERS: That's right. I have won the Democratic primary in the state, that's true, but I have never run as a Democrat. And, so I won as an independent by 10 votes and won three more elections and I'm very Ep. 1 Sen. Bernie Sanders 6

proud of the role that we play to bringing people together in the city of Burlington. And I think most people would acknowledge that we help transformed that city and making it the one of the more livable, beautiful. AXELROD: 10 votes, so did you learn this from the daily tradition here in Chicago of running for mayor that -- SANDERS: No, (inaudible) -- AXELROD: -- that what you needed. SANDERS: We weren't the ones who were counting those ballots, it's the other side. AXELROD: So, what did you learn from that? What -- SANDERS: I learned a lot. AXELROD: -- that experience of being mayor. SANDERS: Well, I learned a whole lot. And it's going to shape my more practical political experience. And what I learned is -- and the way we won that is by coalition politics. That's a very old fashion cuts, obviously. Well, politics today is about raising a whole lot of money, hiring consultants, putting ads on television. That's not the way -- AXELROD: Hey, hey, I used to make those ads. SANDERS: All right, I know. Great people, but nonetheless. What we did is brought people in the community we got (ph). We brought the unions, we brought women who really did not have much of a role in city government, brought young people. We brought neighborhood organizations, we brought lowincome organizations and we really did coalition politics. And we took on the city's machine -- AXELROD: There was a machine in Burlington? SANDERS: Yes, there was a machine, absolutely, there was a machine, and nobody, but nobody. They would do -- if you had been a rich person, if you had a bet on me winning that election, and nobody but nobody thought that it was possible, and we did. And I'll tell you something else that I learned, not only about coalition politics, about working with groups like environmental groups, what their concerns and the Burlington Patrolman's Association, the policeman's union. We brought them all together and say, "OK, look, we disagree on this, that, other thing, but basically on the major issues facing us saying (ph) we are on the same side." And that was the same principal in bringing for this campaign. But I'll tell you something else. Between the election, we have, at that point, elections every two years. AXELROD: OK. SANDERS: And I won in 1981. When I ran for reelection in 1983, we almost doubled the voter turnout. Almost doubled the voter turnout, why was that? Because we ran a city which -- AXELROD: You're giving away things, weren't you? SANDERS: Well, something like that but, you know, mostly because we paid attention to working-class wards and low-income people. [00:20:00] And those people said, "You know what, actually, Bernie and the government are doing something for me. We're going to participate." We almost doubled voter Ep. 1 Sen. Bernie Sanders 7

turnout. And when we talk about the problems facing this country today and the decimal, decimal, decimal turnout we had in the midterm elections last November, I think people are giving up on government. They don't believe government represents their interest. They're saying, "Why do I want to participate in the charade?" AXELROD: All right. SANDERS: Not relevant to me. And what we have got to do is make government relevant to people. We've got to deliver for working people, for lower income people, for young people. And when we do that and we create this relationship of working together, voter turnout goes up. And when voter turnout goes up, Democrats win. Republicans win when voter turnout goes down. So, I did learn a lot being mayor of the city. AXELROD: And then you went on to Congress and you've been there for 25 years. AXELROD: In these experiences, what have you learned about the gap between, you know, Mario Cuomo said you campaigned in poetry and governance pros, what have you learned about the gap between campaigning and governing, and what governing demands? SANDERS: Well, what I have learned is -- and especially true in the last several months since I've been running around the country, I just come back for my office (ph), is the reality as perceived by ordinary people in -- throughout America is a very, very, very different reality that has perceived Inside the Beltway. The Inside the Beltway is way, way, way out of touch with where the American people are. So, for example, on the issues that I campaign on, which would be seen as very, very radical, undoable, incomprehensible within the United States Senate and among the American people, "Oh, of course, we should raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour. Oh, yes, there's something wrong with the United States as the only major country in that that doesn't guarantee health care to people. Oh, yes, no question, we should have paid family and medical leave. Yes, our trade policies have been a disaster and we need to reform them." Of course, public colleges and universities should be tuition free. Of course, not a debate, the rich and large corporations should start paying their fair share of taxes. Out in the real world, people say, "Yes, of course." Inside the Beltway, "Oh, my god, these are radical, radical ideas." And the reason for that, obviously, is that what goes on Inside the Beltway is heavily influenced by big money interests, and corporations and large campaign donors. AXELROD: My friend, Gary Hart, told me something years ago that I found the most useful advice I ever got an admonition, which is just remember Washington's always the last to get the news (ph). SANDERS: That's right. That's right. That is exactly right. And what this campaign is about is just picks up on Hart's point. And that is change will take place in America, not when, you know, John Boehner or Mitch McConnell wants to do something. Change will take place in America when tens of millions of people basically say, "Enough is enough, the system is corrupt, the political system is corrupt that is owned by the wealthy and the powerful. The economic system is corrupt, virtually all the new income and wealth is going to the top 1 percent." And we're going to change it and we're seeing that day. We're seeing that in terms of the fight for the $15 an hour minimum wage. That didn't come from the United States Congress, trust me. That came from young people who work with fast food restaurants and saying, "This is nonsense. We can't make it on 700 quarter an hour." They're going out on the streets. And I've been proud to go out on the streets with them. And the outstanding complement (ph), suddenly, other people say, "Well, these guys are right." And then you have Seattle voting to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour, and L.A. voting to raise the minimum wage to $15, and they're spreading all over the country. So, change comes at the grassroots level and that's what I believe. That's what this campaign is about. Ep. 1 Sen. Bernie Sanders 8

AXELROD: Do you poll? I mean, do you take polls -- SANDERS: We have not done any polls up to now. AXELROD: Have you taken polls in your -- in the past? When I ran in 2006, we ran against a very, very, wealthy guy, one of the wealthiest guys in the state of Vermont and we did poll and we may have polled previous to that, but. AXELROD: And what do you do? Do you see these polls? Do you agree? What do you do with these polls? SANDERS: Well, mostly, the poll in 2006, David, was not used to shape what I say, because basically, we have same thing for 30 years. I don't need to poll to tell me what to say. What the polls did help us on was we were being attacked with some very ugly 30-second negative ad. I've never won a negative ad in my life. How's that? AXELROD: Yes. That's pretty remarkable. And this day -- AXELROD: Do you feel you'll get through this whole campaign that -- SANDERS: Well, I surely hope so. I surely hope so. AXELROD: That's not a yes or no, though. SANDERS: Well, it is my hope that I will never run a negative ad. I never have after all of these years, but, you know, we'll see. [00:25:00] But let me just say, what we did use the polling for is that to try to figure out how to respond, not with a negative ad, but, you know, when you're being attacked, every single day has been one of the worst human beings in the history of the world. AXELROD: Well, that's a pretty heavy charge. SANDERS: That was the least (inaudible) charge. They really, really, really got really negative. But, you know, so you got to figure out which of those kinds of ugly comments actually resonate, which do not and where you go from there. AXELROD: You know, but here's the thing, because I've been through, you know, I was part of a magical campaign in 2008. SANDERS: Yes, you are. AXELROD: And it was very much -- it stirred some of the same kinds of hopes and expectations that your campaign -- because I remember looking out the window in arriving at events that were as large, or maybe larger than the ones that you've experienced. And I remember Barack Obama turning to me and saying, "You know, it's going to be really hard to meet people's expectations because the reality of governing is harder than the -- SANDERS: Sure. Ep. 1 Sen. Bernie Sanders 9

AXELROD: -- expected -- than the articulation of people's aspirations." So -- and you must -- after 25 years -- let me give you an example. I agree with you on single payer. I've had -- I have a child with a chronic illness. I have a very strong feeling about this. But if you did poll, what you would find is there's actually a great deal of ambivalence out in the country about this and that's why you were there -- you and I were both there when we were fighting for the Affordable Care Act. AXELROD: And, we couldn't get your -- all of your Democratic colleagues, even to support a public option -- AXELROD: -- within the Affordable Care Act. SANDERS: Right. AXELROD: So, how do you -- I am just -- we came in with great momentum. It was like -- it would seem like a landmark election and we ran into all those barriers. SANDERS: Well, let me -- AXELROD: So how is under the Sanders administration? How is that going to (inaudible)? SANDER: Well, as you know, I am personally very fun to talk about it. AXELROD: That sounds like a Trump thing. I like him a lot, but no. SANDERS: Obama came to Vermont in 2006 with huge turnout. The campaign for me, I did my best in 2008 and 2012 to get him elected and reelected. But here is an area where he and I have a political disagreement. I mean, we disagree in a number of issues, but this is a political disagreement, a tactical disagreement. You were part of one of the great campaigns in American history. It was a brilliant campaign. What I think is -- and you can arguably -- argue with me about this, is that a mistake that Barack Obama made, A, because he's a very decent guy. He thought he could walk in to Capitol Hill in the Oval Office and sit down with John Boehner and Mitch McConnell, and the Republicans and say, "Look, I can't get it all. You can't get it all. Let's work out something that's reasonable," because he's a reasonable guy. He's pretty rational guy. Well, as you know, I'd expect you to know. These guys never had any intention of the doing seriously negotiating and comprising. Their job from day one was to obstruct, OK. That's issue number one. And I think it took the President too long to fully appreciate that. But he is a better president today than he was four years ago, as a matter of fact, because he now understands that. But here's the second point. Well, I have a difference in tactics with the President. I have no illusion, none, that fighting for a Medicare for all single-payer program, fighting for tuition free public colleges and universities, fighting for paid family and medical leave, raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour, rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure progressive taxation, I don't have any illusion that I'm going to walk in and I certainly hope it's not the case. But if there is a Republican House and a Republican Senate, then I'm going to work in there and say, "Hey, guys, listen, I'd like you to work with me in raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour and ask your campaign donors to start paying their fair share taxes. And by the way, tell the Koch brothers that we're going to transition our economy away from fossil fuel, and I know you would agree with me on that, because you're really smart guys." Ain't going to happen, I've no illusion about that. The only way that I believe that change takes place is when -- and I say this not rhetorically, but this is what I believe in my heart of hearts, is that tens of millions of people are going to have to stand up and be involved in the political process the day after the election, not just Ep. 1 Sen. Bernie Sanders 10

the day before the election. What Obama did was, you know, with your help and other people's help, run a brilliant campaign, a grassroots campaign. But I think that campaign has got to be maintained in an unprecedented way the day after the election and in terms a part of the governing process. [00:30:05] I cannot do it alone. Barack Obama cannot do it alone. And I think that was a mistake that he made, which I hope not to repeat. AXELROD: Well, a lot of the folks in the left were unhappy about the Affordable Care Act because it didn't include a public option. SANDERS: Right. AXELROD: They thought it was a betrayal. Did you feel that way? You voted for it. SANDERS: I ended up voting for it, with some hesitation. It's much too complicated for me and for the American people, by the way. I ended up voting for it after Harry Reid worked with me to put $12 billion into community health centers all over this country, which now means that 4 million people have access. In my state, 25 percent of the people in Vermont get their primary health care and their dental care, mental health counseling, and low-cost prescription drugs, the community health center, which by the way has been one of the real success stories of the Affordable Care Act -- AXELROD: Yes, yes. SANDERS: -- while it doesn't get a lot of attention. And the President, by the way, was very, very supportive of that. AXELROD: But, my point is this, there are 15 million or more people at health care -- SANDERS: Right. AXELROD: -- today who didn't have it, I run into them, all the -- AXELROD: -- people who would say, "Gee, this saved my life." AXELROD: Would it have been the right thing to say no to helping those people, because it wasn't fulsome enough. It wasn't -- SANDERS: Well, I voted for it, so my answer to that question is -- AXELROD: Yes. But, I mean, my point is doesn't governing require those kinds of decisions? SANDERS: Of course it does every single day. When you get elected to office, you know, the first thing you know is you're not going to get everything you want and that you have to compromise. When I was in the House, in fact, there were some years like more amendments past on the floor than anybody else in the House working with Republicans on issues where there was a commonality of interest. So, of course, it does. But, what I'm trying to say here, David, is if you look at the world and you say, "OK, I got a rightwing Congress and I'm the progressive president. All right, what would we do?" That's one way to look at it, and you got to look at that. But there's another reality is what happens if the views that I hold are Ep. 1 Sen. Bernie Sanders 11

supported by the vast majority of the American people and my Republican opponents views are only supported by a small minority?that has got to be brought into the discussion as well. AXELROD: It does. It does, but what if your views aren't helped by a vast majority, like the single-payer issue. I think it makes total sense. The majority of American people don't think that, then what do you do? SANDERS: Well, that's a good question. I mean, you do what you do. I mean, you got to educate the American people and you do the best that you can do. But there are issues where in terms of raising the minimum wage, majority of Republican support that. There are issues where family and medical leave off the charts. There are issues where we have to ask the rich to stop paying their fair share of taxes, widely supported. So, yes, I'm not saying that every decision that I advocate has significant majorities. What -- most of them do and where they don't, you got to continue to fight by educating people, bringing people reward (ph). AXELROD: Now, I don't mean to be provocative in making this analogy but, you know, you hear a lot from the other side that sort -- you know, the Ted Cruz world, that the problem with the Republicans is they've been too willing to compromise that they have to stand on conservative principles, rally their base, put pressure on and it sounds a little like the same argument, which is, it's better to be pure than to be -- SANDERS: That is exactly -- no. You don't hear me say that. It's not what I said. What I said is that if you are good at politics and you have 70 percent, 80 percent of the people behind you in issues like raising the minimum wage or rebuilding our infrastructure or family and medical leave, you should win those fights. And it's not good enough to sit down with Boehner and say, "No, I can't support. Oh, OK, I guess we're not going to do it." Then your job is to figure out how you mobilize that 70 percent, 80 percent. AXELROD: But aren't the incentives misaligned in our political system, because for those members in the House who have, you know, strong Republican districts and only few primaries, the incentives are not in place to reward them for doing the, what you would say is the right thing. I mean, isn't that -- isn't there a structural problem? SANDERS: Well, the structural problem is that while gerrymandering has gone on forever in American politics, you are right in suggesting, I think, that the Republicans have taken it to a whole new level in a very undemocratic way and that's an issue we have to deal with as well. But, let me repeat my point whether you agree with me or -- AXELROD: OK. SANDERS: -- you may not, bur here's my point. AXELROD: OK. SANDERS: My point is that the views that I am talking about represent, I believe, the views of the vast majority of the American people. [00:35:03] The views of the Republican Party, which you can boil down to, let's cut Social Security or maybe privatize it. Very few people believe that. Let's give huge tax breaks to billionaires. I don't know anybody in the real world that believes that. Let's cut Medicare and Medicaid and federal aid to education, most people don't believe that. So, the political dynamic of the moment is the views that progressives hold, I'm not saying everyone, but most of the views are supported by the vast majority of the American people. The Republicans hold views that are supported by the large campaign donors. The dynamic is what Democrats have got to figure out is how we bring our people together to make the Republicans an offer they can't refuse. Ep. 1 Sen. Bernie Sanders 12

AXELROD: Do you ever take -- have you ever taken positions that -- in which you felt you had to compromise to reflect your constituents? You know, Barney Frank famously said, the only politician I ever agreed with was, "Myself the first time I ran." And you get his point. And I think of the issue of guns, where you reflect your constituency. You haven't been down the line. Certainly on the NRA, you voted for selling weapons ban, you voted for -- SANDERS: Well, down the line on the NRA, I've been opposed vigorously by the people in the state of Vermont. So let's not talk about being down the line. AXELROD: But you've also -- you opposed the Brady -- SANDERS: Yes, because they don't have at the point an instant background check. I come from a state, which by the way had had Democratic governors and Democratic senators whose views on these issues are the same as mine. AXELROD: Yes. SANDERS: We come from a state -- AXELROD: I don't raise it in an accusatory way. I'm just trying to get to understand. SANDERS: And, in fact, the votes that I took coming from the state that I come from were fairly courageous votes. I voted to ban certain types of assault weapons. That was not necessarily a popular vote in the state of Vermont. I thought it was the right vote. I voted for instant background checks and I voted to end the gun show loophole. And I kind of think, actually, that where we are with the gun debate in America is you got two sides shouting at each other, and not listening to each other, you know. And I think coming from a state, which has virtually no gun control, but which is sensitive and understands that guns are something different here in Chicago than they are in Vermont. I think I can play a very effective role. AXELROD: Would you have had the same position if you're representing Brooklyn? SANDERS: That's a good question and I suspect, perhaps, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. AXELROD: Back in the '90s, you served under Bill Clinton. AXELROD: And there are a lot of initiatives of his that you didn't support that he would call as signature initiatives. SANDERS: Right. AXELROD: Welfare reforms. SANDERS: Right. AXELROD: The Balanced Budget Act of '97, you know, the repeal of Glass Steagall -- SANDERS: Right. Trade issues as well. Ep. 1 Sen. Bernie Sanders 13

AXELROD: Right. SANDERS: NAFTA. No, I think on many look, I have a lot of respect for Bill Clinton. I think he did a lot of very good things, but I made some very, very important issues he was there on the deregulation of Wall Street. He worked with right-wing, really right-wing Republicans like Alan Greenspan. You remember that famous picture of Bob Rubin and Alan Greenspan and Larry Rubin called "Masters of the Universe." I don't know if it was "Time Magazine," "Newsweek Magazine" or something like that. They deregulated Wall Street, which in my view, in my view, I know people disagree, help lead to the crash of 2008 and bringing us the worst economic downturn since the great depression. That was dead wrong. The trade agreements, frankly, if George Bush had been reelected, we would not have had NAFTA because Democrats would have not had to cave in to a Democratic president. In my view, the trade agreement staff, the cast of BMDR with China have been a disaster for this country, have lost these millions of these in paying jobs, that was wrong in those issues. So, yes, I did oppose on some major initiatives. AXELROD: Now, you've been very insidious in this race about not criticizing Hillary Clinton. You've been invited to do so on many occasions. I've seen you in many, many interviews. But, on substantive matters, primary campaigns are about who best represents the values and traditions and -- of a party. Do you have substantive differences with her that would suggest you would be a better attribute? SANDERS: Of course. I mean, I would not be running if that were -- not my belief. But what I have said is that I think one of the reasons so many people get turned off the politics that is this cheap ugly personal attacks, these -- AXELROD: Right. SANDERS: -- horrendous negative ads. And so I don't do that stuff, OK. AXELROD: Right. SANDERS: But, I will not be running, obviously, if I didn't have differences with Hillary Clinton and with the other candidates. So, I think the first and broadest issue of difference is people have got to make a judgment that in a moment in American history where we have a massive level of income and wealth inequality, where we have Corporate America and Wall Street exercising extraordinary power over our economy and the political process, which candidate has the history and the ideas today to stand up to the big money interests. That is a very important question. [00:40:10] AXELROD: What do you think you'd do and she doesn't? SANDERS: I think that I -- well, let the voters decide about -- AXELROD: Well, based on what you're saying. SANDERS: Yes, based on what I'm saying, of course. AXELROD: And you said you don't have -- you don't take -- you don't have a PAC. SANDERS: I do not have to slip (ph) with that, right. AXELROD: Super PAC, I should say. SANDERS: Right. Ep. 1 Sen. Bernie Sanders 14

AXELROD: And you're not taking in money from large corporations. SANDERS: That's correct, I never have. AXELROD: She does that. SANDERS: She does that. But -- AXELROD: Do you think that's a compromising thing, you seek -- SANDERS: Yes, I do. Look, you know, I know every politicians, oh, yes, you know. Yes, the billionaires are giving me huge sums, like they don't want anything. It just -- they love democracy but, you know, they're just giving me all those money for fund. Well, I'll let the voters decide how true that is. But, my history, in taking one Wall Street, in calling for the breaking up of the major financial institutions, in repealing class legal, in voting against the war in Iraq, in being very clear that if you're serious about climate change and transforming of energy system, no, we cannot support the Keystone Pipeline. I know that Secretary Clinton recently adapted that position, I was there from the very beginning, trade agreements. Now, the TPP is a bad idea in the continuation of bad ideas, the USAP trailer (ph), I voted against the war in Iraq, a huge vote. I listened to the evidence from Bush and his administration, I voted no. Secretary Clinton voted yes. AXELROD: The -- there's a lot of discussion now about Vice President Biden and whether he'll get in the race, he's a friend of mine, was a friend of yours. AXELROD: You have surged into, you know, a pretty strong second place here in these national polls here ahead in some polls in Iowa, ahead in all the polls in New Hampshire. Do you ever find yourself with all this Biden talk saying, "What about Bernie, what's wrong with me?" SANDERS: Look, the last thing that I worry about is what the Inside the Beltway folks and departments think. In many ways, my campaign and I personally function outside their framework of reference. And I know they find it hard to believe that we are doing what we're doing, just like talk to each other. You know that and you live in that world. AXELROD: Yes. SANDERS: Where these guys, each one repeats what the other guy has to say. AXELROD: It's in the culture, yes. SANDERS: It's in that culture. Well, I get out in the real world, that's what I've done. I've done more town meetings in the state of Vermont than any elected official in the history of the state. I do those all over the country. I talk to real people. I think I have the sense of what's going on. So I was success while it is faster than I thought would have happened. While I would have told you four or five months ago, when we're thinking about running, is I think these ideas will resonate with the American people. I think the American people are sick and tired, are they corrupt campaign finance system owned by billionaires, they are tired of an economic system or almost all of the income and wealth being generated that is going to the top 1 percent. It is happening faster than I thought, that I will concede. But what, you know, the Wall Street Journal has to say, the New York Times has to say, I don't say nice (inaudible). Ep. 1 Sen. Bernie Sanders 15

AXELROD: The -- you said that it's happened faster than you -- I mean, it's kind of astonishing. I mean -- and I'm not making the ages point here, but you're a 74-year-old guy and we're headed to a university where there are 2,000 kids waiting to hear from you and there were many, many more who couldn't get in the room. What the heck is happening? How is it that you're the piper for these kids? SANDERS: Well, it's not just the young -- it is young people, and I'm very gratified by that. I think there are young people are generally speaking idealistic, they are rejecting, I think, a lot of the materialism and does every person for himself or herself way of life that many of the parents have accepted. Or they want to see a better world, they are concerned about ending discrimination in all forms. They are very concerned about the issue of climate change. They are very concerned by, you know, definition about making higher education affordable because many of the young people got to leave school deeply in that. So I think the -- AXELROD: But, O'Malley says these -- all these things as well, why are they following you? SANDERS: Well, I don't know. You have to ask them, I don't know. But -- AXELROD: Are you at all surprised by the reaction? SANDERS: Well, I've been surprised in general, you know, when we're going to be in (inaudible). AXELROD: And how many selfies were you in before this whole thing started? SANDERS: Oh my god, please don't talk to me about selfies. Like don't ask me for a selfie, David. AXELROD: I'm not going to do that. My agent is taking photos, you can't even see them right now. Let me ask you one last thing. AXELROD: You kicked around a lot in the '70s before you got elected, you were writing, you were speaking. [00:45:00] But, the -- you know, you're basically -- your history of employment is largely as a public official. SANDERS: Well, not -- yes and no, no. Before I became mayor of the City of Burlington, I ran a very small, very small nonprofit called the American People's Historical Society. And what we did is produced filmstrips. Remember what filmstrips were? AXELROD: I do. SANDERS: Before video for the young people. AXELROD: Yes. SANDERS: What they were, these photographs, and you had a beep and went to the next photograph. And we did some histories of the State of Vermont. And we did some on New Hampshire. We did some on Massachusetts. I mean, you know, made a living. It was a lot of fun. I enjoyed doing that. I did one on the Life of Eugene Debs. And I suspect if I had not won the race in mayor, that's kind of doing historical video is probably what I would be doing now. Ep. 1 Sen. Bernie Sanders 16

AXELROD: Like your life experience has been different than that of -- and that, you know, you haven't spent a lot of time in the private sector. You haven't spent a lot of -- it has been very varied in that regard. Is that a liability? And what is it about you that would give people a sense that your experiences have been so broad that you can -- SANDERS: Well, they have been broad. When you are the mayor of the city, I mean, I've been a mayor. I've been a congressman. I've been a United States senator. And when you're a mayor, for example, you get involved in everything. You learn how to -- what the most cost-effective way is to repave streets and sidewalks. You learn about housing and how to construct housing. You learn about child care. You learn about the needs of senior citizens. You learn about the health care. You learn about prescription drugs. You learn about a whole wide variety of issues. And I think my life experience has been, A, being involved with the people, being a candidate who kind of comes from the ranks of the people, not from Wall Street, not from the Ivory Tower, not from Corporate America. And I think that is a good attribute to have. AXELROD: Would you be -- what do you hope to do here? Let's stipulate that you could be president of the United States and you may not be president of the United States. If you're not president of the United States, will this have been worthwhile? That's been an extraordinary experience, an extraordinary experience. I mean, getting to meet great people in states all over America, meeting all kinds of people. You know, by the time this is over, there's not going to be a group in America that I have not met. And to hear people's concerns, how people view the world is -- that's been just a wonderful experience. AXELROD: And what impact do you think you can have, even if you're not the nominee, do you think you're impacting the debate? SANDERS: I think we are. I mean, I think the issues that we are talking about, income and wealth and equality, the disappearance of the American middle class, the need for us to join the rest of the world in terms of family and medical leave, in terms of the national health care program, in terms of public, making public colleges and universities tuition free, in terms of racial justice, you know, in terms of immigration, yes. I think when you are running for president, as you well know, you have a platform. You have a bully pulpit that can help force discussion on very important issues that often people would not like to talk about. AXELROD: Well, Senator, thank you. You're the first guest on this podcast, "The Axe Files". And I can't think of a better person to kick off this series. So, your public awaits. But, thank you so much for being with us today. SANDERS: OK. Thank you. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you for listening to "The Axe Files." For more podcast like this, subscribe to "The Axe Files" on itunes. And for more programming from the University of Chicago Institute of Politics, visit politics.uchicago.edu. Ep. 1 Sen. Bernie Sanders 17