worship ideas.com WBCL Mid Morning Host Lynne Ford Interviews Don Chapman Lynne Ford: Hello, and welcome to "Mid-Morning." I'm Lynne Ford. Thanks for including "Mid- Morning" in your Wednesday. Don Chapman's passion is for the church, music, and technology. He blends all three into resources websites devoted to contemporary worship, hymncharts.com and worshipflow.com. He's the editor of the weekly worshipideas.com newsletter that's read by over 50,000 worship leaders across the world, a prolific arranger and songwriter. Don has had songs published by Word, Integrity, G3 Worship, and Worship Today and has orchestrated music for Christian artists like Chris Sligh and Jeremy Camp. He's been featured on "The 700 Club" and has been quoted in "USA Today." It was an article written by Don and featured on a Christian magazine website that is acting as the catalyst for our conversation. It's title, "Why Isn't Your Congregation Singing?" At 10: 30, we welcome your questions and insights via email, Facebook, and phone. Now, the crux of Don's article is this, if you're a worship leader who's wondered why the congregation isn't enthusiastically engaged in singing. Or if you're worshiper who's noticed the same thing about others, even yourself, songs may be the culprit. Good morning Don Chapman. Don Chapman: Hi. Lynne: Hi. [laughs] Are you ready for this conversation? Don: I'm ready if you are. Lynne: I am. Why might the songs, well composed and familiar to the congregation through radio, and ipods, and CDs and concerts, be the problem with people being able to sing? Don: Well, one problem is we really have almost a glut of songs, that's probably not a good word, but just a bunch of songs, probably now more so than ever in the history of Christianity. Churches are writing their own songs. They're able to get them out without record labels on the Internet. There's just too many out there. People simply don't know all the songs that churches are singing. I have a friend who just took a worship leader position, at a mega church, and this church was concerned that their former worship leader wasn't leading the congregation in worship.
The congregation just wasn't singing. They weren't involved. When my friend took this job, he looked at the list of songs that the church had been singing for the past six weeks and not a single song had been repeated. That's a performance. When you're doing a new song every week that nobody knows, people just can't engage it. Lynne: So that's one of the reasons why you're saying songs could be the issue. We have so many songs to choose from, that the rotation, they're not in rotation enough that the congregation doesn't become familiar with them and comfortable then in, sometimes the nuances of the song. So that they can sing it without really having to think about what's next. What else is involved in the songs? Don: Sure, the whole issue about why congregations are not singing is not dependent on just one thing. There are a lot of little things that eat away at the problem. I think the first main one is what we just talked about. Too many songs, they're not repeated enough. People don't know them. Another one is, people can't even hear them singing. The music is so loud in churches that it drowns out your own vocals. I have the opportunity, I love visiting churches. I travel all over the country and I visited all the famous mega churches. I love to find out what they're doing. On a recent trip to a mega church, the music was so mind boggling loud, and wherever I visit, I always take earplugs with me just in case. The music was so insanely loud that I was amused. I couldn't even the sound coming out of my own mouth. That's another issue where it's just so loud that people aren't even able to sing. You aren't able to hear people around you singing. I love loud music, don't get me wrong, but sometimes it can almost be damaging. When you're getting up to 110 decibels. There are some churches that are more of a rock concert feel. You probably should stay around 90 to 100 to be safe and not damage ear drums. Lynne: Let's take just a little side trip before we continue with this list. Tell us why you wrote this article. What was your heart behind this article? Don: Well, there doesn't really seem to be somebody out there who is visiting and getting a bird's eye view of the church. Music directors are so busy with their own churches, rarely do you get a chance to visit. I was a music director in a church for years. You're just at that grindstone. Once in a great while, I would be able to visit a church in town just to see what other people were doing but I took a break from working at a church. WBCL Mid Morning Host Lynne Ford Interviews Don Chapman - 2
I had my websites. I arrange and write music. I was concentrating on them. I took that opportunity to visit all these churches. I'm just seeing things that bother me. I just want to talk about them in hopes that it'll help worship leaders to think, and start a conversation on it. Lynne: Let me just piggyback on that Don, because when we have conversation on Mid-Morning, we don't ever have it for the purpose of just simply criticizing something and letting it go. We really want to have conversation that leads to something positive. When I read that article, I thought, "I don't know that anybody's talking about this," and for a couple of reasons I really wanted to continue it, and move it from an article into an on-air conversation. Because it could be that, maybe you're somebody who's noticed this in your own congregation, where there's a worship leader and there's a worshiper, and maybe the worship leader gets why they're not singing, but maybe not. But as a worshiper, you may not be able to put words to, why is it? You may think, "It's because we're not singing hymns." It's bigger than that. Don: Right, yes. Lynne: You may be wondering, "Why does it feel flat?" I know that worship is not about how we're feeling, but why is there a sense of flatness, of dullness, of people just mouthing the words. I'm hearing some sound, but there isn't a heart engagement, there isn't a whole person that is really worshiping in the song that we're singing right now? That was my intent for this discussion, so that people can say, "OK, I get it. I get what the issue is. Now, what do we do about that?" What do we do about that? Because there's always going to be songs that we sing, that not everyone likes. It may be a song that I don't like, but somebody else in the congregation, that's the one that the Lord just really speaks to their heart about, and their soul comes alive when they sing that. The worship service is not about us. It's not about what we like or don't like. Worship comes down to worshipping God. Let's start with that, and then we'll come back on the main road, because it seems like a basic question, Don. But all of us are in different places of faith, different places of maturity. What is worship, and what's its purpose? Don: Well, that is a whole... [laughter] WBCL Mid Morning Host Lynne Ford Interviews Don Chapman - 3
Lynne: That's a different topic, but I think we need to at least talk about that. Don: Sure. Books have been written about this, and you'll get 10 different answers from 10 different theologians. But for the purposes of what we're talking about, let's just talk about one tiny little sliver. I'm not saying this is the answer - this is a part of the answer. But specifically about what we're talking about, I think this is dealing with the unity of the church. When everybody is singing, that unifies us. We're all on the same page, we're singing the same words, and that was a big thing. You hear that a lot in the Bible, a lot of verses. I looked up last night some verses on it. Romans 15:5-6 talks about, "May we live in such harmony with one another, according to Christ Jesus, that together you may, with one voice, glorify the God and Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ." Right there, how more plain can it get? When we're all singing together in a congregation, that says we are all going through the same trials in life. We're doing it together. There is strength in the body. That's just one little tiny element of what worship is all about, but for me that's what we're talking about here, and why it's important that we're all singing. I love everything that you were talking about before, and I do want to mention, I am a superanalytical person. I love finding things that can be improved on. I do talk a lot about the mechanics of it. But there's a whole spiritual element of the congregational singing. When I was a music director, Saturday night, before church on Sunday morning, I would be getting ready, setting up chairs, making sure the music stands were in place, and I would walk around and just pray that God would bless everyone in the congregation. There's a whole spiritual element to this. We can be singing all the right songs, and doing everything right, and it still is flat because we're not praying that God will guide us and help us, and touch people's hearts in the congregation. It's a marriage of the spiritual -- pray as hard as you can and work as hard as you can. Lynne: Our worship is to bless and honor the Lord. That's what we come together, as a body, a group of people that have been forgiven of sins, who are living a life empowered by the spirit to, as a unified body, declare who He is and to bless and honor Him for who He is. I think another reason why this conversation, Don, is so important is for most churches, not for all churches, but for most churches singing is the biggest portion of the worship experience. If the singing portion, which is where we are engaging, each of us as Christians in the pews or seats, with God and with each other and yet, we're not able to do that, then something is lacking there. Again, that's why this conversation is so important. WBCL Mid Morning Host Lynne Ford Interviews Don Chapman - 4
Let's go back to where we were at the beginning. What is it about some of these songs, and songs that we love on the radio, and songs that we can sing really loudly in our cars by ourselves that have great words? Theology, right on the money, praise songs, melodies that are just so well written but when you bring them into a Sunday morning service and you want 50 people, 100 people, or 1,000 people to sing, it doesn't work. We've talked about the familiarity, not knowing the song very well. We talked about the loudness of music but there are other things, too, that are going on. Don: Sure and let me point out too, your listeners love listening to the radio and they know all these songs but there are a lot of people in church who do not listen to Christian radio, who never darken the door of a Christian bookstore. They'll buy Christian CDs and they don't know these songs. Me, as a worship leader, this was five years ago or so, I was so tired of the song "Shout to the Lord." By that time, I had rehearsed it a hundred times and I was just sick of doing it but I have to realize that average person, rarely, ever heard "Shout to the Lord." They still loved "Shout to the Lord." "Shout to the Lord" is still on the top of the charts, so to speak. There's a chart that rates the top praise songs. It's still there at the top. To me, that's a song that's old and tired but people still love it. As a worship leader, I have to realize even though I might be tired of something it's still new to a lot of people. I just wanted to say that but really I just thought of four or five things that are contributing to this eroding away of the congregational singing. One is people don't know the song. They can't hear themselves sing. Another biggie is that they're not in the right key. A famous worship leader is singing a song on the radio, that song is put in the key that fits their voice best. Lynne: Yeah, hits the sweet spot of their voice. Don: Yes. That is probably 90 percent of the time not a good key for the congregation to sing. For instance, Chris Tomlin, love his songs, but he is a high tenor and you should never do a Chris Tomlin song in the same key that Chris Tomlin is singing it because you just can't sing it. It's too high. It's a high tenor song. So then you have the problem, a typical guy in the congregation, they don't know what to sing. Do I sing way up high? I can't even reach those notes. Do I sing really low? It's frustrating. They don't do it if a lady sings in their proper register. They're singing like an opera singer, way high. WBCL Mid Morning Host Lynne Ford Interviews Don Chapman - 5
They feel weird if they're singing too low. So right there, that's another little thing that cause the problem. Lynne: All right, so out of key. Let's talk about just sometimes the intricacies of the song in terms of rhythm. Don: I learned this, you can hear a song and it sounds so awesome but it might be very tricky for a congregation to sing. Songs need to have a simplicity to them. I learned this myself when I was music director. There was a favorite song that I loved. We sang it all the time at church. Then, we had a prayer meeting one Wednesday night. It was just me at the keyboard playing this song. I could actually hear the people in the prayer meeting singing this song and they were stumbling all over it. They couldn't get the rhythms right. See, I could never hear that in church because the band was blaring really loud. You don't really pick up on what the congregation is singing. Then when I got to that intimate setting of the bible study, I could hear, oh my goodness, people just can't even sing this song. It's too syncopated. That's a whole other problem. It might sound great on the radio but it just doesn't work with a crowd of people. Lynne: Anything else on this list, Don, as we're working through it. We have four things and they really are things, and the key things. Don: Sure, one more thing I want to mention is the lack of vocal support from the platform. That can be choirs, that can be praise teams. I can remember I've had the amazing opportunity to have lived through this entire worship thing. When I first started in church work years ago, praise and worship was just starting. Every church had a choir. Nowadays, you don't have choirs, we're even seeing praise teams with multiple people fade away in favor of a single male worship leader, maybe with a single female backup singer. I can remember the first contemporary church I went to, the first thing I noticed was the lack of vocal support coming from the stage. It was weird. When you have a lot of people on stage singing, you're hearing their voices and that is a cue to help you sing to the untrained person, they can feel like they can sing along. It's like when you're singing along with your favorite artist, in your car, listening to the radio. It's the same concept. WBCL Mid Morning Host Lynne Ford Interviews Don Chapman - 6
There's that strong voice and when you sing along with them, you feel like you're a superstar [laughs] singing. Same thing at church, if you hear a good strong voice up front. Strong voice, you're encouraged to sing along with them. We don't have that today in the rock band format. Lynne: That's the latest trend and there are trends in worship, and this is one of them. Will it turn itself around? We've gone from choirs to worship teams to individuals. Will we shift that back to choirs again or to larger worship teams? Don: Yeah, I really think we will because I'm already starting to hear the rumblings where mega churches have gone this route of hiring what I call, "rock star worship leaders," who are up there on stage. It's all about them. They don't have choirs. I know of one church hired a rock star worship leader. He came in and got rid of the choir, got rid of everything, and they're finding it's not working. People are not engaging. I'm hearing stories of choirs springing back up, praise teams getting larger, that kind of thing. Yeah, I think it's going to change because it just isn't working. It's turned worship into a performance. Lynne: Well, it goes back to what we were saying earlier that worship is first and foremost, and really, solely about God. That worship is and then after that, it's the uniting of the body of Christ, so it's not one person singing on stage to us but it's the worship leader's role is to bring the body. Lead the way into worshiping the Lord as individuals but also as this group of people that have made this declaration that they've decided to follow Jesus. Don: That's key. That's something that made me think what you said. In the church's desire to become as culturally relevant as possible, which I am all for, I love lighting. I love loud music. I love rock bands. They are modeling after the world, in that performance aspect. They're not even doing it purposefully. It's accidental almost. Our hearts are good. Churches hearts are good. They want to reach people but you can't apply that whole concert rock band mentality to the church because what you're saying is, it's true, it's all about God. It's about uniting the body. It's not about us sitting there watching a performance. Lynne: Well, something as simple as dimming the lights in the auditorium during the worship service and I know that a lot of churches do that. Our does that, too. WBCL Mid Morning Host Lynne Ford Interviews Don Chapman - 7
When that happens, I get the reasons for doing it. This isn't a criticism, but when the lights are low, it does have that feel of concert. It distances you even though you're sitting next to somebody. All of a sudden, you are disconnected from everyone else. Don: Right and that is a huge debate. People listening to me talk they probably would be surprised but I am in favor of dimming the lights. The why is because we actually had this conversation at the church I'm playing at right now, where for a while, the lights were dimmed and all of a sudden we came in and the music played. It was bright. The lights did not dim, I said to the music director, "What's going on?" And he said, "Well, there's a big debate on staff about this." I said, "I personally felt weird." When the lights got really bright, I felt exposed. Whereas, when it was dimmer, I just somehow felt more comfortable. I felt more like I could engage and connect. I think that what they're trying to do is help more of a younger person who, and I'm by no means young, [laughs] but most younger people are typically in that situation where they're in a concert and they feel comfortable in dimmer rooms. If it's brighter, they might feel more exposed. What you're saying is true that also does give a performance feel to everything. These are just things that have to be debated. Whatever is working for that church. That's something that I can say either way. Whatever works best for your church. Lynne: We'll talk about age in just a moment, Don, but it goes back to the point that that with so many people with different preferences, different backgrounds, different places of maturity. We not all ever going to agree on the elements of the worship service. We need to come back to OK, what its purpose. We've talked about what that is. It's only about God. That means what do I need to do, as a believer, who is submitted to the authority of God when the worship service doesn't have the things that I like or that I prefer. In this case, we're talking about singable songs. So, I don't really want to get off track into other things but it really comes down to being a heart issue. We're going to talk about that in just a moment but it's 10:23, you're listening to Mid-Morning, Don Chapman is our guest. We got this whole thing rolling with an article called, "Why Isn't Your Congregation Singing?" We loved to welcome your comments and questions at 10:30. You can begin to email them now. [music] WBCL Mid Morning Host Lynne Ford Interviews Don Chapman - 8
Lynne: Don Chapman, does age have anything to do with it when we're talking about singability of a song? Don: Sure, I think younger people are much more acclimated to more diverse rhythms but if you think of how much music has changed in the past 10 years even. We're going through enormous changes that we've never seen before in history. It used to be you'd go a hundred years and be singing the same hymns. Nowadays, we have new songs every week. Lynne: Is the 20, 30 crowd at a church dealing with this issue of singability in the same way that a church that has a more diverse demographic age group? Don: Can you elaborate? Lynne: Well, I'm thinking if you've got a church of 20 and 30s. You're congregation is mainly young families, so they're in their 20s and 30s, will they have as much difficulty, this is probably a generality, but will they have as much difficulty with the songs that we're talking about this morning. The song that played just coming into this interview. Kari Jobe's "Forever." She can sing that song but it's a lot of the same notes toward the end and you're sustaining that. That'd be a tough congregational song. Maybe 20s and 30s, would they be able to do that, not better but would they be more engaged in that song, as opposed to 50s, 60s and 70 year olds? Don: Sure, musical styles would dictate that. Plus, with a little church like a church that is filled with younger people, they may not even know something is amiss. They might just be used to going to church and being performed to. Whereas as an older person, may be more like, like me, I can remember growing up in church. You could hardly hear the instruments. People were singing so loud. Where did that go? That's what older people are thinking, "Why aren't we singing together as a body anymore?" A younger person may not have even ever experienced that. Lynne: Interesting. So, Don, why isn't the fix for this issue simply going back to singing hymns and only hymns? Don: Well, scripture's very clear, in many places we are to sing a new song. [laughter] WBCL Mid Morning Host Lynne Ford Interviews Don Chapman - 9
Don: That's just talking about our faith. His mercies are new every morning. We're writing new songs about all of His wonders and attributes and everything. I am certainly a huge proponent of hymns. I have a website where I arrange contemporary versions of hymns to make them more playable by a praise team. They're very important but they're very different. Praise songs are typically more like a prayer. Think of a praise song as a prayer. People complain praise songs are too simple. Well, that's OK. You're just praying a lot of times with a praise song. Most of the time, a hymn is more doctrinally rich. It might be talking about God or about your experience. "Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine." I am talking about my experience. Whereas, "I Love You, Lord," an old time praise and worship song, is speaking directly to the Lord. You see the difference there? You're praying to the Lord with that song whereas "Blessed Assurance," you're talking about your relationship. Lynne: Got it. Are there individuals that are writing songs that are simply meant to be sung by the church in worship as opposed to being recorded to be sung on the radio? Don: Yes, definitely. Think of, what is that popular song, "In Christ Alone," I think the name of it is, written by The Gettys. They are spot on. They're writing really contemporary hymns that have more of a contemporary flavor but they are meant to be sung by a congregation and are more singable and simple. Lynne: Makes sense. Let's talk to both worship leaders right now and to all us that are gathering to worship on Sunday morning. The takeaway for worship leaders, Don, that will help them in their choosing music and leading worship. Don: Well, first of all, just approaching it with a humble heart and pray for God's guidance. These are complex issues. The one we talked about should you dim the lights or not? Pray about it. If you have questions, pray what does God want you to do in your own church? What songs do you want sung to the Lord? When you sit down to pick your songs, I like to think, "Lord, what do you want us to sing to you this week?" When you really bathe the whole process in prayer, that solves a lot of problems. Lynne: What do you do, I'm keeping my eye on the clock, it's 10:30. Let's open the phones here for questions this morning. 260-745-9990. If you've got a questions or if the conversation has sparked a comment or insight for you, we'd love to hear from you. WBCL Mid Morning Host Lynne Ford Interviews Don Chapman - 10
260-745-9990, email, midmorninglive@wbcl.org, and Facebook is another way that you can get in on the conversation. I was thinking as we were talking about worship leaders, part of it is self-control, part of it is recognizing that just because I really love a song, and it would even fit with the theme of the sermon, if it's not singable, then what do you do with that song, Don? Don: Well, use it as an offertory special. Have soloists get up and sing it. Every song doesn't have to be a congregation song and that's a swing that churches have done. They have done away with all "special music," in favor of nothing but congregation. Let's have it all. Let's have several songs where we're all joined together but you know what, I want to sit there and hear somebody who is really gifted sing from their heart a beautiful song. I don't have to participate in that. Let's do it all. Lynne: That's a really great point because there are songs that would really enhance the worship, I hate to say, "worship experience," but they lead you into the presence of God because of the words that they have. They're going to be preparing your heart to receive the sermon or they are going to bring you to a place of confession before communion. To have that song sung by a soloist, even though we're moving away from that, I think sometimes we get so caught up in trends thinking, "OK, this is what's making that church successful. We'll just bring in the pattern that they're using to our church and plug it in." It will work that way. We are the body but we are individual congregations. Lord has something to do in each of our places if we just ask Him. "What is it that you want to do here in our flock? Your flock that's here." Don: Yes. That is a big problem. Churches will go out to the latest worship conference at a mega church and come back and try to do everything that they're doing. They find it just does not work. In fact, a lot of times it will split the church. Lynne: Don, what kind of response have you had to this article? What are people saying? Don: It's very interesting. I had this article on my worshipideas website, an article similar to it and got a couple of negative comments of worship leaders. Then, when several other more mainstream Christian websites started running it on their websites, I was getting a lot of positive comments. I think it shows a disconnect between a worship leader and your typical person in the congregation. I think that's probably why the article has taken off. WBCL Mid Morning Host Lynne Ford Interviews Don Chapman - 11
Lynne: The pushback from the worship leaders, what were their concerns, or what did they disagree with? Don: I can think of one worship leader, a good friend of mine who's a super talented singer. I have gotten into arguments with him over the keys, because he feels that he's got to be able to sing that song in the perfect key for his voice. I feel that his goal should be, "What is the best key for the average person?" If it's a little too low for him, he may not sound his best on that, but he can still lead it. That's where the worship leader... Lynne: I get that. I really hadn't given that much thought, but it's true. Because if you're leading worship, you don't want to be in a place in your voice where it's stretching your voice, where it's not pleasant to listen to, or where the lower range is too soft for you at that point in time. Don: Right. There's got to be a compromise. There's got to be that perfect key that is OK for him to sing, and yet a congregation can hit that note. Lynne: Don, I'm going to give you a minute to answer this last question that's just come in. How much should the worship leader feel responsible for the worship service during church, and what is the responsibility of the worshipper? Don: The worship leader's job is to facilitate and to create that worship atmosphere that's free from distraction. He needs to pray the prayer, and to put it together mechanically so that songs written with keys, he's got the right songs, that all distractions are out of the way. The worshipper's job is to maybe not be so critical all the time. Instead of picking apart what's not perfect in the service, like you said earlier, see what you can find in that song. Whether it's listening to the words, praying during the song, and finding their best way that they can engage. Lynne: I forget who our guest was on the morning that said, "Instead of asking how was the sermon today, ask how was my listening today?" [laughter and crosstalk] Lynne: Another way we could phrase that is not, "How was the worship service today, but indeed, how was my worship today?" Don: Yeah. Lynne: You've given us some good things to think about, Don Chapman. Thank you so much for joining us. We've linked to Don's websites from our schedule page, so head there if you'd like to read more that's been written by Don and find out more about him, and even read this article for yourself. Download an MP3 of this interview at WorshipIdeas.com WBCL Mid Morning Host Lynne Ford Interviews Don Chapman - 12