COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA : IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF : DAUPHIN COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA V. : OF V. :

0 COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA : IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF : DAUPHIN COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA V. : TIMOTHY MARK CURLEY : No. CP--MD--0 COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA : IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF : DAUPHIN COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA V. : GARY CHARLES SCHULTZ : No. CP--MD--0 APPEARANCES: BEFORE: TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS PRELIMINARY HEARING MAGISTERIAL DISTRICT JUDGE WILLIAM C. WENNER DATE: FRIDAY, DECEMBER, 0 PLACE: COURTROOM NO. DAUPHIN COUNTY COURTHOUSE HARRISBURG, PENNSYLVANIA BRUCE R. BEEMER, ESQUIRE OFFICE OF ATTORNEY GENERAL For - Commonwealth CAROLINE ROBERTO, ESQUIRE For - Defendant Curley THOMAS FARRELL, ESQUIRE For - Defendant Schultz

0 INDEX TO WITNESSES FOR THE COMMONWEALTH DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS Michael McQuery By Mr. Beemer: By Ms. Roberto: By Mr. Farrell: Thomas Harmon By Mr. Beemer: By Mr. Farrell: By Ms. Roberto: John McQueary By Mr. Beemer: By Ms. Roberto: By Mr. Farrell: Shannon Manderbach By Mr. Beemer: Anthony Sassano By Mr. Beemer: By Ms. Roberto: By Mr. Farrell:

0 INDEX TO EXHIBITS FOR THE COMMONWEALTH IDENTIFIED ADMITTED Exhibit No. (Transcript of Paterno Grand Jury Testimony.) Exhibit No. (Transcript of Curley Grand Jury Testimony.) Exhibit No. (Transcript of Schultz Grand Jury Testimony.)

0 (On Friday, December, 0, the following proceedings occurred, beginning at : a.m.:) THE COURT: Good morning, counsel. MS. ROBERTO: Good morning, Your Honor. MR. FARRELL: Good morning, Your Honor. THE COURT: For defense counsel, is there a motion for formal reading of the Complaint? MS. ROBERTO: Your Honor, for Mr. Curley, may it please the Court, Caroline Roberto representing Mr. Curley, we will waive reading of the Complaint. THE COURT: Thank you. MR. FARRELL: Your Honor, Thomas Farrell for Gary Schultz, and we, too, waive the reading of the Complaint. THE COURT: Thank you, sir. MR. FARRELL: You're welcome. THE COURT: Is the Commonwealth ready to proceed? MR. BEEMER: We are, Your Honor. THE COURT: Call your first witness. MR. BEEMER: Commonwealth calls Mike McQueary.

0 MICHAEL McQUEARY, called as a witness, being duly sworn, testified as follows: THE COURT: Good morning. THE WITNESS: Good morning. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BEEMER: Q Good morning, sir. A Good morning. Q Would you please state your full name, spell your last name. A Michael J. McQueary, M-C-Q-U-E-A-R-Y. Q How old are you, Mr. McQueary? A Thirty-seven. Q Where did you attend college? A Penn State University. Q Did you play on any of the athletic teams at Penn State University? A Yes. Q And what team was that? A The football team. Q And who was the head coach at the time? A Joe Paterno.

0 Q And could you tell the Court what years you played football at Penn State? A I was a freshman in ' and I graduated in December of '. Q Did you continue or return to employment at Penn State University after your college career ended? A Yes. Q And when did that occur? A Full-time employment occurred in 00. Q What were you doing prior to 00? A I was an offensive graduate assistant coach between 000 and 00; and between ' and 000, I was just a wage payroll office assistant. Q When you say you were a graduate assistant coach, was that at Penn State University? A Yes. Q You worked under Joe Paterno? A Yes. Q Back in 00, who was the athletic director at Penn State University? A Mr. Curley. Q And what's his first name? A Tim.

0 Q If you could just generally describe for the Court, are you familiar with a building on Penn State University's campus known as the Lasch Building? A Yes. Q Could you describe for the Court what the Lasch Building is? A It houses our football program, offices for coaches, team locker rooms, strength training, academic support. It's where -- it encompasses our whole football program. Q The description you just provided, was that true in 00? A Yes. Q I would like to direct your attention back to March of 00, particularly on a Friday night. Do you recall something unusual happening to you on a Friday night in that time frame? A Yes. Q Can you describe for the Court approximately what you were doing on that Friday evening? A I was at home and watching a football movie, already had gone to bed. And upon watching the movie, I became motivated and just

0 wanted to get some football things done and decided to go to the Lasch Building to look at the recruit tapes, pick up some recruit tapes. And I had also bought some tennis shoes earlier that day. Upon going into the building, I wanted to put them into my locker. Q Well, you indicated that you came from somewhere. Were you at your house where you were watching this movie? A Yes, I was at my house, yes, my townhouse. Q Approximately how far away is that from the Lasch Building? A I would say six miles, and at that time an eight-minute drive. Q You did drive to the Lasch Building? A Yes, I did. Q Describe for the Court what you did upon your arrival on Penn State's campus. A I went to the Lasch Building, parked my car, entered the Lasch Building and went to the support staff locker room. Q Is there more than one locker room in the building? A Yes.

0 Q Other than the support staff locker room, what other locker rooms are there? A There's a locker room for full-time coaches, the head coach and the two strength coaches, and there's obviously the players' locker room. Q Do the locker rooms include shower facilities? A Yes. Q Was that true of each of those locker rooms you've just described or just some of them? A Each one, yes. Q Did you have those -- that pair of sneakers that you previously described, did you have those with you when you entered the building? A Yes. Q Where did you go initially upon entering? A To the support staff locker room. Q And what did you do? A That locker room has two doors to it. I opened the first door and began entry into the locker room. Q Can you describe what happened there? A Yes. When I opened that first door, I

0 heard rhythmic slapping sounds, two or three slaps that you would hear skin on skin. Began to go into the second door, and I was already alarmed and alerted, to be frank, somewhat embarrassed, because it sounded to me like someone was in the showers. I could hear the showers running. And I thought some activity was happening in the showers, but I really didn't want to seem to -- didn't want to be a part of. I turned -- my locker, upon opening that second door, is immediately to the right of that door. It's the very first locker in that row at that time. I turned to my locker, and as I turned and faced my locker, I looked over my right shoulder into the mirrors. At a -degree angle from that mirror, you can see into the shower. Q Let me stop you right there. A Okay. Q Approximately what time in the evening was this? A I would guesstimate or :0, p.m. or :0 p.m. Q And on that Friday evening in March of

0 00, were you familiar with an individual by the name of Jerry Sandusky? A Yes. Q Describe for the Court how you knew Mr. Sandusky. A Mostly through him being a defensive coordinator and assistant coach at Penn State University while I played on the team. I also knew him, I played football with two of his sons at State College High before I got to Penn State, and by his reputation as the assistant coach when I was growing up in State College. Q Was he one of the -- was he on the coaching staff when you played from to at Penn State? A When I played, yes. Q Was he on the coaching staff in 00 on that Friday evening? A No, he was not. Q Did you see him at Penn State during that interim period of time prior to this incident? A Occasionally. Q Did you ever see him in the Lasch Building? A Yes.

0 Q Now, if I could take you back to you indicated that you were -- you heard these rhythmic slapping sounds. Then you looked into -- looked into a mirror? A Yes. Q Could you describe exactly what transpired at that point? A Looked in the mirror and shockingly and surprisingly saw Jerry with a boy in the shower. And it appeared that Jerry was directly behind the boy and the boy was up against the wall with his hands up against the wall. Again, that glance or that look may have been a second or two. I turned back to my locker and, in a very hurriedly and hastened state and shocked, opened my locker, swung the door open, put the shoes in, and then stepped to the right of my locker, to be frank with you, to make sure I saw what I think I saw with my own eyes without the reflection in the mirror. So I stepped a little bit to my right to look directly into the shower room. Q You earlier in describing this referred to Jerry. Who is Jerry?

0 A Jerry is Coach Sandusky. Q And you indicated upon this first glance, you indicated that there was another individual in the shower with Jerry Sandusky? A Yes. Q And you described a particular position that you observed him in. Could you describe that again, please? A Yes. The boy was up against the wall, facing the wall, his hands maybe shoulder height on the wall. And Jerry was directly behind him in a very, very, very close position with Jerry's hands wrapped around his waist or midsection. I couldn't see his actual hands, but his arms were wrapped around. And it appeared upon looking the second time, I said to myself, they're in a very sexual oriented -- a very sexual position. Q What did you believe they were doing? A I believed Jerry was sexually molesting him and having some type of intercourse with him. Q And that was based on what you observed in terms of the positioning? A Yes, based on the positioning. I did not see insertion nor was there any verbiage or

0 protest, screaming or yelling, so I can't sit here and say that I know 0 percent sure that there was intercourse, but that's what I said to myself and that's truly what I believed was happening. Q That's what you believed was occurring? A Yes. Q You've referred to the second individual who was in the shower with his hands up against the wall as a boy? A Yes. Q Can you describe for this Court why you're describing that individual as a boy? A When I looked at the boy, he -- and, again, they're quick looks. I'm not standing there obviously staring. He looked prepubescent, or years old. Certainly -- and, again, we look at teenagers in our field all the time and, frankly, judge them and look at them physically. And he did not appear to be an older teenager. He definitely appeared to be a - or -year-old boy, roughly. Q Was there any question in your mind that the individual that was in the shower with Jerry

0 Sandusky was a child? A No, no question at all. Q You indicated that there was a second time that you looked into the shower? A Yes. Q Is that correct? A Yes. Q Describe -- after looking in the second time, did the position of the individuals change at all? A No. Q So what you observed at first -- your first look, when you looked a second time, that was continuing? A Yes. Q Was there -- did there appear to be any movement of either Mr. Sandusky, body movement on either Mr. Sandusky or the boy? A Very little, but I would say slow movement, certainly not hard or fast movement but a little movement. Q The rhythmic slapping sounds that you described hearing initially when you walked in before looking into the shower, did you continue to hear those upon your visual observation of

0 what was occurring in the shower? A No. All that I heard was the showers running. Q You indicated that you didn't hear -- I believe the term you used was you didn't hear any verbiage? A No. Q Did you at any point during this incident hear Jerry Sandusky say anything? A No, absolutely not. Q At any point did you hear this young boy say anything? A No. Q Did you hear the young boy make any kind of noise at all? A No, none. Q Did you hear Jerry Sandusky make any kind of noise at all? A No. Q At the conclusion of seeing this the second time, could you explain to the Court what did you believe you were witnessing? A Jerry molesting the boy. Q In what fashion when you say molesting the boy?

0 A Having some type of intercourse with him. That's what I believe I saw. Q What -- how long -- I know this is a difficult thing to approximate. How long a period of time do you think you were -- you actually were looking at what was going on? A Each -- the first two glances were, what I call glances, maybe one or two seconds. Q And what happened after -- describe how what you observed on this second look, how did that come to an end, what did you do? A I stepped back, didn't want to see it anymore, to be frank with you, wanted to close my locker up, which I did. I slammed the locker door shut and at that time took a more brisk forward movement towards the shower and looked in again. Q And what happened at that point? A At that time when I looked in, they had separated. Q When you say looked in, how close are you to the area where you would actually be stepping into the shower? A On the third look, on the third time I see?

0 Q Correct. A I would say from the showers I am to yards, maybe feet. Q And how far -- would that have been closer on this third time than you were on the other two instances when you were -- that would have been closer to your locker? A Yes. Q About how much -- how many steps would you say you're taking in order to get closer? A Two to three steps. Q When you indicate that they had separated, describe what you mean. A They had both turned so their bodies were totally facing me and looking at me. And they were or feet apart. Q This is the third time -- A Yes, sir. Q -- that you actually moved closer towards the shower? A Yes. Q Did you go into the shower at all? A No, I did not. Q Did you say anything to either one of them?

0 A No, I did not. Q Do you believe based on what you observed that either one or both of these individuals saw you or recognized that you were there? A I know they saw me. Q And how do you know that? A They looked directly in my eye, both of them. Q Did either one of them say anything to you? A No. Q What did you do at that point? A Seeing that they were separated, I thought it was best to leave the locker room, and I left the locker room. Q Can you characterize for the Court what was your -- how were you feeling at that point? A Not very good. To be frank with you, I can't describe what I was feeling or thinking. Shocked, horrified and, to be frank with you, probably not thinking straight, you know. I was distraught. Q Where did you go? A I went directly upstairs to my office. Q Now, when you say upstairs, that's on a

0 0 different floor? A Yes, it's on the second floor. Q The showers in the locker room that you just described where this incident took place, is that, I assume, on the first floor? A Yes. Q Is that the ground floor that when you walk into the building you would be right there? A Yes. Q What did you do once you got up to your office? A I called my father. Q Where did you -- at the time in 00, I'm not asking for the address, where in general terms did he live? A In State College. Q So he lived close by? A Yes. Q And how old were you in 00? A Twenty-eight. Q And you call -- A Actually at this time, let me correct myself, I would have been. Sorry. Q And you call your father. What was the purpose of calling him?

0 A I really didn't know what to do, so someone I respected in my life and wanted to get and seek advice from I called. Q Let me rephrase that. Was the purpose of placing the call directly related to the incident that you had just witnessed? A Yes, without a doubt, yes. Q What did you tell him? A I said I just saw Coach Sandusky in the showers with a boy and what I saw was wrong and sexual and I needed some advice quickly. Q And at that point what did you do? A He told me to come home. He asked me if I was okay. I said, yeah. He said, come over here right away and talk to me. Q At any point did you go back to the shower area or the locker room after you went upstairs to your office? A No, I did not. Q Did you see on your way out of the building either Jerry Sandusky or this young boy that had been in the shower? A No, I did not. Q About how long after you've initially left the locker room would you say you actually

0 exited the building? A Six or seven minutes. Q Where is -- can you just describe for the Court where is the shower relative to the exit? A It's on the same level. It's on the ground level, the shower is, and it's down a long -- from the front hallway where the front door is, it's down a long corridor. And that corridor, that shower room may be 0 or 0 feet. I'm guessing. Q When you got in your car, where did you go? A Directly to my father's house. Q At your father's house, was there any sort of decision made as to what you should do? A Over time, yes. Q Okay. And when you say over time, you mean that evening? A Yes, absolutely, yes. Q And what was the decision? A After long discussion and input and things, it was to call Joe Paterno who was the head coach and as soon as I possibly could and tell him what I saw. Q This was -- at the point that that

0 decision was made, was it later in the evening on Friday? A Yes. I would say :0 and probably close to p.m. Q And can you describe what you did after the decision was made that you were going to talk to Coach Paterno? A I went home to my townhouse and slept the night and got up the next morning early and called his house and told him I needed to see him. Q When you say early, about what time are you talking about? A I would say :0 a.m., :00. Q Had you -- prior to this, how many times had you called Joe Paterno at, :0 in the morning on a weekend? A Never. Q What did you tell him? A I said, Coach, I need to come to your house and talk to you about something. Q Did he respond? A Yes. He said, I don't have a job for you. And if that's what it's about, don't bother coming over. I said, Coach, it's about something

0 much more serious, I need to come over and see you. And he said, okay. Well, you better come over then. Q Did you, in fact, do that? A Yes, I did, right away. Q Was his house or residence in State College? A Yes, it is. Q Fairly close to where you were? A Fairly close. Q Describe what you did. A I went over to his house, sat at his kitchen table and told him that I had saw Jerry with a young boy in the shower and that it was way over the lines. It was extremely sexual in nature and I thought I needed to tell him about it. Q Did you describe for him the positioning of Jerry and the boy? A The rough positioning I would have described but not in very much detail. Q Did you make it clear that it was Jerry Sandusky? A Yes, I did. Q Did you make it clear that there was a

0 young boy? A Yes, I did. Q Did you make it clear where this occurred? A Yes, I did. Q Did you make it clear that this was -- the acts that you observed were sexual? A Without a doubt. Q Would you have ever used the term sodomy with Coach Paterno? A No, never. Q Would you have ever used the term anal intercourse with Coach Paterno? A Never. Q Why? A Out of respect and just not getting into detail with someone like Coach Paterno, I would not have done it. Q What was your intention in talking with him? A My intention in talking to him is, one, he's the head coach and he needs to know if things happen inside that program and inside that building; and, two, I saw something that was, in my opinion, outrageous and terrible, and I

0 thought he needed to know about it right away. He deserved to know about it. Q You indicated that there was no question in your mind that you observed a sexual act? A No question. Q Between Jerry Sandusky and a young boy? A That's right. Q And at any time during the act that you witnessed, did you see either one of them with any clothing on in the shower? A No, never. Q Did Coach Paterno give you any sort of responses to the information that you were telling him? A Yes. Q What did he tell you? A First, when you say responses, he was shocked and saddened, kind of slumped back in his chair. He said, well, I'm sorry you had to see that. It's terrible. And he said, I need to think and tell some people about what you saw and I'll let you know what -- what we'll do next. Q Did he have any sort of comment as to whether or not he felt you should have told him? A Absolutely.

0 Q What did he say about that? A He said, you've done the right thing. He said, I know it's probably tough for you to come here and tell me this, but you've done the absolute right thing. Q When you spoke to Joe Paterno that morning, did you believe that you would then be talking to other people? A I thought at some point in time, yes. I went to Coach Paterno because I knew he would handle it the right way or what I thought was the right way, and I was sure that he would pass it along to someone else. Q Did that, in fact, occur? A Yes, it did. Q Did it take some time? A A little time. Q Who's the next person in any position of authority that you spoke to about this? A Mr. Curley called me on the phone and said, I've spoken to Coach Paterno. Q Okay. Let me stop you right there. You've referred previously in your testimony to Mr. Curley as being in 00 the -- employed as the athletic director at Penn State University,

0 correct? A Yes. Q Did you know him personally at that time in 00? A I knew him but not extremely well at that time. Q And the individual that you are referring to as Mr. Curley -- A Yes. Q -- is that person seated anywhere in the courtroom? A Yes. MS. ROBERTO: We'll stipulate to Mr. Curley's identity. Thank you. THE COURT: Thank you. BY MR. BEEMER: Q Can you describe what occurred during that phone conversation? A He said Coach Paterno had talked to me and that he was aware of what I saw and that he felt like he needed to see me and talk to me about it along with Mr. Schultz. Q Who is Mr. Schultz? A At that time he was one of the vice presidents of the university.

0 Q And do you know what his role was within the university when you say one of the vice presidents back in 00? A He had, I'm sure, several roles. At that time I knew that he was one of the vice presidents and that he was in charge of the athletic department, or the athletic department reported to him and -- or at least I thought that. And I knew that the police department reported to him as well. Q Let me -- let me ask you a question about that. The Penn State University, does it have a university police department? A Yes, it does. Q In other words, a department that's solely within the confines of Penn State University? A Yes, it does. Q You indicated in 00 you were aware of the fact that Gary Schultz was -- you used the word in charge of the police department? MR. FARRELL: Objection. He didn't use that word. THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. BEEMER:

0 0 Q What was your understanding? A That the police department reported to Mr. Schultz and that he oversaw the police department. Q And the individual that you knew as Gary Schultz, do you see that individual in the courtroom? A Yes, he's here. MR. FARRELL: We'll stipulate to Mr. Schultz's identity. THE COURT: Thank you, sir. BY MR. BEEMER: Q The phone call that you received from Mr. Curley, about how long after the Friday night incident in the Lasch Building or the Saturday morning discussion you had with Joe Paterno did that occur? A I think it was nine or ten days. Q Did you do anything in those nine or ten days to figure out what was going on in terms of whether anybody else was going to speak to you about this incident? A No. Q Once that happened, once you had the phone call with Mr. Curley, what transpired then?

0 A We had set up a time where I would come over and sit down with the two gentlemen and tell them or talk through what I had seen, and that was -- it was either that afternoon or the next day. Q Had your -- the intention that you described when you went over to speak with Coach Paterno, what it was that you wanted him to take away from the meeting, had your desire to relay that information changed in any way? A No, not at all. Q Do you recall approximately what time the meeting would have been during the day? A No, I do not. Q You said it occurred where? A In the Bryce Jordan Center. Q Is that in some sort of an office? A Yes, it was in a small conference room with a table. Q And who was present? A Myself and Mr. Curley and Mr. Schultz. Q Describe for the Court what happened or what transpired. A They had said that Coach Paterno had contacted --

0 MS. ROBERTO: Objection. I'm going to object to him saying they had said. If he can be more specific, one person or the other. BY MR. BEEMER: Q If you understand, if you're referring to someone in particular speaking, identify that particular individual instead of using the pronoun they. A Okay. I can't remember who spoke first in that meeting. I think it was Mr. Curley had said that he received a phone call from Coach, that he said that I saw something in the showers with Jerry and that it was sexual, and that they needed to know the details of it and wanted me to talk through it with them. Q Did you do that? A Yes. Q What did you tell them? A I told them that I saw Jerry in the showers with a young boy and that what I had seen was extremely sexual and over the lines and it was wrong. Q Did you describe for them the -- MS. ROBERTO: I'm going to object to leading.

0 MR. BEEMER: I haven't even finished the question, but I'll rephrase. THE COURT: Thank you. BY MR. BEEMER: Q Did you describe for them what you saw in the shower? A Yes. Q Did you describe for them the body positioning that you -- MS. ROBERTO: I'm going to object as leading. Ask him the question what he told Mr. Curley and let him describe what he told Mr. Curley. MR. BEEMER: It's not a leading question, Judge. THE COURT: I don't think it's a leading question. You can continue. BY MR. BEEMER: Q Did you describe for Mr. Curley and Mr. Schultz the body positioning of the individuals in the shower? A Yes, I would have given them a rough idea, yes. Q When you say a rough idea? A I would have said that Jerry was in there

0 in very close proximity behind a young boy with his arms wrapped around him. Q Did you describe for them any sounds that you heard? A Yes, I would have said I heard slapping sounds. I did say that. Q Did you describe for Mr. Curley and Mr. Schultz whether or not either Mr. Sandusky or this young boy had any clothes on? A Yes. I would have made it clear that it was in the shower and they were naked. Q Would you have described for them what you believed the act was that you saw occurring in that shower? A Yes. Again, I would not have used some of the words that you previously mentioned, but I would have described that it was extremely sexual and that I thought that some kind of intercourse was going on. Q Prior to your witnessing the incident in 00 in the shower, did you have any knowledge of any investigations that involved Jerry Sandusky with a young -- any young boys previous? A No, I didn't have any knowledge. Q So you had no idea about anything that

0 may have occurred in the years prior involving the police department? A I had no idea. Q Were you informed at that meeting by either Mr. Curley or Mr. Schultz that Mr. Sandusky had been investigated previously by the university police department for being in the Lasch Building with a boy in the shower? A No, I was not. Q What was the response to all of the things that you've just described that you told Mr. Curley and Mr. Schultz? And I would ask you to please be specific to an individual, if you can. A I really cannot be specific to an individual in terms of who said what back to me. I can't remember that. The response -- Q Let me ask you this. What did you take away from that meeting as to what was the next step? A They did say that the input they gave me was they thought it was serious, what I was saying, and that they would investigate it or look into it closely, and they said they would follow-up with me.

0 Q This is in your mind, you've testified no doubt, what you believe to be a sexual act between Jerry Sandusky and a minor? A No doubt at all. Q In your mind back in 00, is that the kind of thing you would expect to talk to the police about? A I thought I was talking to the head of the police, to be frank with you. Q Okay. When you were in that meeting, you believed you were speaking to the head of the police? A Yes. In my mind it was like speaking to a DA. It was someone who the police reported to and would know what to do with it. Q Did any -- subsequent to that meeting, did any member of the university police department or any other member of law enforcement come to speak with you about what you had observed? A No. Q And I'm talking about in the weeks, months and few years after this incident? A No, not until October or November of last year, no.

0 Q Did either Mr. Curley or Mr. Schultz ever get back in contact with you to follow-up on any aspect of what you had told them? A Yes. Q And when was that? A I would say four or five days later, Mr. Curley called me on the phone and said they have followed up and they have looked into it and gave me an explanation of things or some things that they thought they should do and they had done. Q Who specifically called you? You said it was a phone call? A Mr. Curley called me, yes. Q Okay. And what did he tell you about what they were doing? A He said they had contacted the Second Mile and had reported the incident to them. He said that they had told Jerry not to have any more of the kids around the program or the facilities, and I can't remember -- I think he told me they took his keys away, but I am not totally sure on that. I can't remember that. Q Any -- did you ask about anything else that was being done or did you just accept what

0 you had been told? A No, I accepted what he had told me and said okay. Q Did you ever speak with Mr. Schultz again about this incident other than the conversation you had at the Bryce Jordan Center? A No, not about this incident. Q After that phone call that you received four or five days later, did Mr. Curley ever speak to you again about what you had seen? A I don't believe so, no. Q Now, did either one of them ever tell you not to talk to anybody about it? A No, no, they never said don't talk to anybody. Q The information that Mr. Curley had provided you about Jerry Sandusky not having -- they were going to do something about him having kids up on the campus -- A Right. Q -- was there ever a period of time when subsequent to that conversation or that where you saw something that made you believe that that wasn't happening? A No, there was never a period of time

0 after that incident where I saw any kids with Jerry at all around our facilities or program, never. Q Did you continue to see Jerry at the facility? A Yes, absolutely. Q Did you find that -- what did you think about the fact that he was continuing to be at the facility? A Personally knowing what I saw and knowing what I knew, I personally found it troubling and not right but -- Q Did you ever talk with either Mr. Curley, Mr. Schultz or Mr. Paterno? A Not those three, no. But I would frequently informally raise my own questions about it, but not with those three men, no. Q So, in other words, you never spoke with them again about this -- about Jerry Sandusky and what you had seen? A No. Let me correct that. When you say them, Coach Paterno did ask me in recent months after that, two or three months, a couple of times if I was okay. Q Asking about your general well-being?

0 0 A Yes, in relation to what I had saw and if I was handling it okay. Q Did you -- strike that. Was there any question that you conveyed accurately what you saw in that shower to Tim Curley and Gary Schultz when you met with them at the Bryce Jordan Center? A There's no question in my mind that I conveyed to them that I saw Jerry with a boy in the showers and that it was severe sexual acts going on and that it was wrong and over the line. MR. BEEMER: May I have one moment? THE COURT: Yes. (Pause.) BY MR. BEEMER: Q Can you describe for the Court when you indicated you had the phone conversation with Mr. Curley and he told you that they were going to notify the Second Mile? A Yes. Q What did that mean to you? A I thought he was calling the Second Mile and reporting to them that they had had a complaint. Q Let me ask you -- let me ask it this way.

0 Did you know who founded the Second Mile based on living in State College? A Yes. Q Who was that? A Jerry Sandusky. Q Did you know whether or not at that time Jerry Sandusky was a part of the Second Mile? A Yes. At that time he was, yes. Q And what kind of part of the Second Mile? A He -- frankly, he was the Second Mile. I don't know what his exact title within the Second Mile, but to me he was the Second Mile. I mean, Jerry, that's his -- at that time that was his pride and joy. Q Did you know what it was? What was it supposed to be? A It was a foundation to help underprivileged youth. That's what I believe it was. MR. BEEMER: That's all I have, Your Honor. THE COURT: Ms. Roberto, ladies first. MS. ROBERTO: Thank you, Your Honor.

0 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MS. ROBERTO: Q Mr. McQueary, my name is Caroline Roberto and I represent Timothy Curley. I'm going to ask you some questions this morning. If you don't understand my question, let me know and I'll try to rephrase it. Do you understand? A Yes, ma'am. Q Okay. Now, in 00, you said you were years old, correct? A Yes, ma'am. Q And at that time in 00, you resided on the Penn State campus? A No, I did not reside on the campus. I did reside in State College. Q Okay. Now, we were talking earlier at least when you were answering Mr. Beemer's questions, specifically the night of this incident, how do you know or do you know whether it was 00? A I'm relatively sure it was 00. I remember it being a Friday night before spring break. Q And how long was the graduate program that you were attending, how many years?

0 A The NCAA has a two-year limit on your graduate assistantship. If you've made progress towards your degree, completed credits, they will allow you to go a third year, that you can have a third season on the field. And at that time I had made that kind of progress and I was granted a third year. Q So were you in your third year in 00? A The 00 fall would be my third season as a graduate assistant. Q So this was, you're saying, around spring break in 00, so it was your second year, ending your second year? A Ending my second year, going into my third, yes, ma'am. Q And how many other grad assistants were there in that program, at least in the football program? A I don't have the complete answer, only because there's grad assistants in the academic area, in the strength training area and also upstairs in the coaching area, so I would not at that time be able to tell you how many were there. Q I think you mentioned that you had an

0 office in what you described as the Lasch Building, which was the football building; is that right? A Yes, ma'am. Q And how long had you had that office prior to the evening of this incident? A We moved into that office, into that facility -- it's a relatively new facility. We moved into that facility in August of ' right before we opened up camp. That's the first office I had. And I had it all the way until I became a full-time employee in 00. Q And did you have an office mate? In other words, did you share that office? A No, I did not. Q Were there other offices around your office? A Yes, ma'am. Q So describe that office area. How many offices were on the floor that you were on? I think you said you were on the second floor; is that correct? A Yes. How many offices? Q Yes. A I'm guessing there's offices up there.

0 Q Okay. And who had the adjoining offices to you, if you recall, in 00? A Directly across the hall would have been the Director of Football Operations, Tom Venturino. Q Okay. A And to my left, I believe the other GA for the defensive side of the ball at that time was Chris Acuff. And those are the only immediate offices in that little sector of that hallway. Q Now, I think you said that you believe that this occurred right around spring break. There aren't any organized NCAA football tournaments or anything going on at that time. Football season is over, is it not? A Yes, ma'am. Q When you arrived at or :0 on this evening, were there any other coaches at the office -- at their offices? A No, not that I saw. Q Did you see anybody else in that building, equipment people or janitors? A No, I did not see anyone that night. Q When you arrived at the office, it was

0 obviously after normal hours? A Yes, ma'am. Q Did you have a key to get in? A Yes, ma'am. Q Do you have to sign in in any kind of security booklet or anything like that? A No. Q Were there any security cameras that you recall outside the Lasch Building? A I believe the security system, the cameras were put in place after that incident. And in my mind in some ways I always thought that the cameras were put in place maybe because of that incident. Q Okay. Do you have any knowledge that cameras were placed outside the Lasch Building because of this incident? A I don't have knowledge of that, no. Q So your impression is that the cameras were placed outside the building after 00 spring break? A I think so, yes, ma'am. Q Were there any security cameras inside the building, in the hallways? A Again, no, not at that time.

0 Q Okay. Now, obviously, let's say, spring break 00 is several months after the //00 incident that occurred in New York City. Do you have any information or belief that security was beefed up at the Lasch Building post /? A I don't have any of that information, no. Q Now, you mentioned that you obviously were the football coach -- I mean, you were the football quarterback and your coach, your head coach, was Joe Paterno. In 00, where was Mr. Paterno's office? A He has an office in the football building, in the Lasch football building on the second floor. To describe it, it's at the very front of that second floor as you come in, upstairs and you go in. It's an office suite directly beyond those front doors as you come upstairs. I'm not sure I'm describing that as well as I should. It's kind of tough to describe it. Q Is it your recollection that that's where he maintained an office in 00? A Yes. Q Did he have another office in another building as far as you know, an administrative

0 office? MR. BEEMER: Your Honor, I'm going to object to relevance. MS. ROBERTO: I'll withdraw that question. THE COURT: Thank you. BY MS. ROBERTO: Q It's fair to say that you would see even in an off season time, you would see Coach Paterno on a weekly basis? A Yes, absolutely. Q And would you see him on a daily basis? A Most days we would see him, yes. Q All right. And I think you mentioned that -- well, tell me this. Was he a mentor to you? A Without a doubt. Q And a role model for you? A Without a doubt. Q And even in 00, did you feel close to Coach Paterno? A Yes. Q Now, you stated that in 00, you didn't really know Timothy Curley very well? A Not overly well, not nearly as well as I

0 would know him today, no. Q But you know that he is and you knew then that he was athletic director? A Yes, absolutely. Q And being athletic director is not just athletic director over the football program, it's all intercollegiate athletics, correct? A Without a doubt, yes. Q All right. So his office, Mr. Curley's office, was not in the Lasch Building? A No. Q Was it in the Bryce Jordan building? A Yes. Q So when you went to meet with Mr. Curley, it was in or near his office; is that fair to say? A It was not in his office. It was -- I don't know the layout of the Bryce Jordan Center that well. His office suite is to the left as you come in the athletic offices. We met in a conference room that was in an office suite to the right, I believe, and down the hall a little bit. It was a small conference room, but it was not in his office suite to the left, no, ma'am.

0 0 Q Okay. So because Mr. Curley's office was in a different building, you wouldn't have the occasion to see him on a daily or weekly basis, would you? A No. Q How often would you see Mr. Curley back in 00? A In 00, four or five times a year and on the bowl trip maybe a couple times. Q So Mr. Curley would travel on bowl trips when Penn State University was in a bowl game? A Oh, yes. Q And you said that this was around spring break. Do you know whether the basketball team has bowl games around that same time? A Bowl games? Q Not bowl games, tournaments, tournaments. A Tournaments around spring break? I think -- I don't think the Big Ten was having a conference championship back then, a conference tournament. Q If you don't know, that's fine. I'm just wondering if you did know. A I think I do know. I think later in March the NCAA tournament does start, but at that

0 time I don't think they were in a tournament. Q Okay. Now, you say on this -- the night of this incident, you were at home at your residence earlier in the evening? A Yes, ma'am. Q Did you do anything else earlier in the evening? Did you have dinner? Did you go out? A I'm sure I did, but I don't have a mental note of it, but I'm sure I ate at some point. Q Okay. You were single at the time, correct? A Yes, ma'am. Q Did you spend the early evening, either dinner or drinks, with anybody that you can recall? A Not that I can recall, no. Q Would you have eaten out or eaten in? MR. BEEMER: Your Honor, I'm going to object. MS. ROBERTO: I'm trying to test his recollection, Judge. THE COURT: Well, I'll allow you a few more, but we have to move on. BY MS. ROBERTO: Q It's a Friday night. Did you have

0 anything to drink? A No. Q So you went to the building at about or :0? A Yes, ma'am. Q Did you go alone? A Yes, ma'am. Q And you parked your car in the parking lot there adjacent to the Lasch Building? A Right in front of the Lasch Building. Q Did you go directly to the showers or did you go to your office first? A No, directly to the showers. Q And when you walked into the showers, I think you described that there were two doors? A Yes, ma'am. Q The first door, could you describe the type of door that is? A It's a wooden door that swings open. Q Was there a lock on that door? A No, there's no lock on that door. Q Does that door slam closed automatically or do you have to pull it closed? A No, it has a -- I don't know the proper term but it closes slowly automatically.

0 Q On a spring? A Yes, or some kind of hydraulic, yes. Q When you walked into that first door, what is in your immediate vicinity? A It's a very small hallway with a telephone on the wall. Q And when you walked into that first door, did you hear the showers running? A Showers running and the slapping, yes, ma'am. Q Okay. So in that hallway is when you heard that noise? A Yes, ma'am. Q All right. And how -- did you stop in that hallway and listen? A Very briefly. Q I'm sorry? A Very briefly. Q About how long? A A second maybe. I hesitated. It was more of a hesitation than stopping. Q All right. Then you went through a second door? A Yes. Q And what is in your immediate vicinity --

0 well, first of all, describe that second door. Is it similar to the first door? A Same type of door, yes. Q All right. And when the door closes behind you, does it make a sound or a noise? A No. Again, it's on those hydraulic so they close very slowly, ma'am. Q Okay. So when you walked through that door, what was in your immediate vicinity? A Directly in front of you as you walk in that door is two sinks and a countertop with a mirror. To the right as you walk in that door is a row of lockers with lockers on both sides. To the left in front of you is the urinals and the rest rooms, toilets. Back behind there to the left is the shower room. Q Now, when you walked in there, did you still hear the same sounds that you heard when you were in the hallway? A The showers, I heard the showers running. I can't recollect hearing the slapping at that time. Q Okay. Now, how many -- you've been inside that shower, correct? A Yes.

0 Q And how many showerheads are in that shower? A It's been since 00 since I was in that shower. I would recollect there being three or four, maybe five showerheads. It's a smaller shower room than our current -- the current locker room I'm in, which is the full-time assistant coaches' locker room, so it's been a while since I've been in there, but I would recollect five, four or five showerheads. Q Now, I don't know if you're going to be able to answer this question, but let me ask. Could you tell from the sound of the showers if there were two showers on, three showers, five showers? A More than one shower. Q More than one shower? A Yes, ma'am. Q Okay. So the sound of the shower was loud? A I wouldn't say loud, but I could definitely hear the sounds of the showers, yes. Q When you were in that proximity, you didn't hear any voices? A No voices at all.

0 Q Now, did you go at that point to your locker? A Yes. As soon as I entered into that second doorway, I went directly to my locker. Q Which would have been, as you're entering the doorway, on the left? A On the right. Q On the right. Okay. And when you were at that locker, what did you hear? A I heard the showers running. Q All right. And after hearing the showers running, did you at that point look and see a reflection in the mirror? A I had already made a mental note of the slapping. I heard the showers running. And, again, to be frank with you, I was -- you know, visualizations come to your head of what that may be in the showers. So I was already embarrassed and slightly like, should I be here, I want to get out of here. Q Did you, when you had those thoughts -- A Uh-huh. Q -- and the embarrassment, do anything, say anything to let the people in the shower, if you thought there were people in there, know that

0 you were there? A No. I looked in the mirror to see what was going on. Q Okay. And you were curious to what was going on, is that fair to say? A Sure, absolutely. That's fair. Q Okay. All right. And so you looked in the mirror and that -- what exactly did you see when you looked in the mirror? A Jerry behind a boy with the boy positioned against the wall and at very, very, very close proximity with Jerry's arms around him. Q Could you see the boy's face? A At that time, no. Q Did you ever see the boy's face? A Absolutely. Q Okay. And was that after the -- I think you said the third time that you looked into the shower area? A Yes, ma'am. Q Is that when you saw the boy's face? A That's correct. Q Okay. Now, when you saw the boy in the shower the first time through the reflection in

0 the mirror, could you describe any expression or did you not even see the side of his face? A No. Q Could you see the side of Jerry -- I'm sorry, no, you couldn't see the side of his face? A The boy? Q Um-hmm. A No, not at that time. Q Could you see Jerry's face in any way, profile or any way? A Probably maybe the very -- I don't know what the word is, quarter profile. Q When you saw that reflection in the mirror, did you do anything to get the attention of those two people in the shower? A No. Q And you were shocked when you saw that, were you not? A I didn't know what to think. On that first -- on that first look through the mirror, I'm not sure what my -- I didn't know what to think. I wasn't even sure I was seeing what I was seeing. Q Well, did you think of saying, hey, yo, I'm here in the shower; hey, it's Mike McQueary,

0 I'm here? A No. Again, I wasn't sure what to think or do. Q But you can say for certain you did nothing to alert those in the shower that you were there? A That's right. I did nothing. Q And then you did what after you went to your -- your locker? A Turned back to my locker. Q Um-hmm. A Put the shoes in and took another -- I wanted to look again with my own eyes without the reflection in the mirror to make sure the angles or the reflection wasn't lying to me. I wanted to be sure what I saw. Q And you looked again? A Yes. Q You peered just your -- you didn't walk into the shower? A No. Q Okay. And you saw the same thing? A Yes. Q Okay. At that point, Mr. McQueary, did you alert those two individuals in the shower to

0 0 your presence? A I did not alert them with my voice but I -- as I said before, I slammed that locker door shut and that made a noise. Q And did -- well, when you slammed the locker door shut, were you looking at them at the same time? A No. Q Okay. No. So you don't know whether they heard that locker door shut? A I don't know that for sure, no. Q Right. But you did know the second time that you saw these two figures in the shower that something, according to you, was shocking going on? A Yes. Q Okay. But you didn't stop it, right? A At that time, no. Q Okay. Then how many minutes or how many seconds elapsed from the time you peered the second time into the -- the second time you looked into the shower to looking in the shower the third time? A How many seconds elapsed? Q Yes.

0 A Between those two looks? Q Yes. A Four or five seconds. Q How many seconds or how long were you in the shower locker room area from the time you walked in through the first door to the time you left? A No longer than a minute. I would say seconds. Q Okay, seconds. So you look in the shower the third time, and you said you saw that the two figures had stopped what they had been doing before, they were in a different position? A Yes, ma'am. Q Okay. Did you at that point say anything to Mr. Sandusky? A No, nothing. Q You didn't confront him at all about his behavior and what you saw? A No, ma'am. Q And you looked at them and they looked at you, you said there was eye contact, right? A They looked directly at me, yes, and I looked at them. Q And was Mr. Sandusky shocked when he saw

0 you? MR. BEEMER: Objection, calls for -- BY MS. ROBERTO: Q What was the expression on Mr. Sandusky's face when he saw you? A Somewhat blank, just kind of a blank expression. Q You have gone through with Mr. Beemer all of the people that you confronted and told about this incident. Did you ever that night or subsequent to that night confront Mr. Sandusky with what you saw? A No, never. Q Never did that? A Never once. Q Okay. Even though you have had lots of experiences on and off campus with Mr. Sandusky, you said earlier that you were familiar with the Second Mile? A Yes. Lots of experiences, I guess we would have to get more into what that means. Q Well, you've gone to some fundraisers with Mr. Sandusky for the Second Mile, right? MR. BEEMER: Objection to the relevance. THE WITNESS: No, I --