Data transcription of focus group Researcher: Thank you for taking part in the study. I m going to ask you a few questions. Feel free to be as vocal

Data transcription of focus group Researcher: Thank you for taking part in the study. I m going to ask you a few questions. Feel free to be as vocal as you can and to be as clear as you can so that I can be able to hear your views when I am transcribing. Researcher: What is your understanding of ulwaluko? Participant 1: Okay, umm my understanding of ulwaluko it s umm it s a process. It s a Xhosa ritual when a boy umm goes through circumcision to become a man, you know. So I think I think it s a list of, of challenges you know, the challenges, the obstacles they give him there and they, they give him all these (.) the idea of a man in the Xhosa society so yah that s what I think ulwaluko is. Researcher: Okay, your view? Participant 2: The same. Researcher: Okay. Do you think there was more pressure on being a homosexual to undergo theritual? Participant1: Umm yes, I believe that there was more pressure with me as a homosexual because um I wasn t so much like a boy you know, like in a real boy you know because I was court in-between a man and a woman. I had ideas of a woman but was I a body of a man (.) a boy you know in the Xhosa sense. So now I think that I was (.) I had double pressure to myself as a boy as a male in society and then transition then to a man you know. So think that there was pressure. = Participant 2: = Well in my case there was no pressure because they treated each and every boy there equally. There was no like, there was no pressure, it s not like since we were homosexual they were harsher on you, they were, they treated us equally. In my case anyway Participant 1: NO, NO, wait, wait, I do not dispute the fact that on the mountain they treated us the same, because honestly for me. I had rights there you know. Participant 3: So to you XHM 1 do you believe that you were not treated the same as others? Participants 1: I was (.) I was not treated differently there. Actually I think I was treated more (.) Better than other people because I am very vocal you know and I think I was a bit older, I was mature you know. I, I think I was 17 so that was really mature but I had a more broader mind so I think the pressure was more on them you know than on me and I am saying is that even before going to initiation school there was a sense (.) they put pressure on you as a homosexual [ Participant 3: [So the teachers there did they know that you were gay or did your family? Participant 1: My, my, my teacher if I would say that (.) he knew that I was gay. He knew because we grew up kind of in the same place= Participant 3: So was he doing you favours or maybe he treated you as the SAME as others which [ Participant 1: [Well he was less tough on me you know [ Participant 3: Ooo [ Participant 1: We knew each other you know. Participant 2: So he treated you differently from others? Participant 1: Silent (smiles) Participant 3: Yes talk Participant 1: No, no, Participant 2: You said he was less tougher? Participant 1: Umm that was not the question. Researcher: He was less tougher. Participant 1: I think the question was whether there was more pressure right? There was pressure on me as a homosexual or as a boy who wasn t really chilled with boys but

more with girls you know, there was pressure to go to initiation school. I m not talking about actually being there at initiation school now because we were already pressured and pressured until we were there as homosexuals but there you are treated (.) for me, my personal experience I was treated a bit differently. I don t know maybe he knew me or maybe he, he, I don t know. (.) But let me tell you this, my, my grandfather made sure that I had hash harsh treatment, he insisted that I had no privileges you know I be more (.) because I was always the little child, the kind of black child type of thing you know so he would be like no, no (shaking his head) definitely he must do this and that again you see. I was sharing the same initiation hut as my cousin. My cousin was always the goody too shoes. He was the one who went out to hunt and to cut wood and make a fire, he was always the boy and I was always the one who was at home reading or going out partying. So my grandfather always preferred him than me [ Participant 3: [So now what were your grandfather s wishes? Participant 1: [I TOLD you already (.) I had more pressure to go. Participant 3: So your grandfather s wishes were for you to be hard, more of a man [ Participant 1:] No in terms of (.) because I always, () so I would sit and lay down inside because I was not really social because there are only boys there and what could I possibly say with boys? Nothing especially straight boys, you know there is no conversation so I would just stay in my hut, so he always used to be like I should go find wood and hunt in the middle of the night and stuff I m thinking he knows that I am not that (.) what you call (.) practical. I m not (.) someone who will come and tell me to go fetch wood to make fire in my hut () what are you talking about, you know. It s not me, so he knows that but he insisted because I was homosexual and a very soft child, then I do that. But again that was not the question. Researcher: So there was pressure to go to the mountain? Participant 2: So that when you re back from the mountain you be a proper man. Participant 1: From the community. Yes there was but not directly. My parents, my parent, we always talked about it with my mother because my mom and always talked. We discussed that I will go for initiation when I was in my metric year. And I agreed with it. I did not see anything in that but externally you know Researcher: From community Participant 1: Yes, but something else, what is this word? Participant2: You can also say it in Xhosa, Participant 3: No, no it s not a matter of saying it in Xhosa because I don t even know it in Xhosa., uhm indirectly there was pressure from my father but he couldn t say I should go because I had already made it known that I was willing to go. But he knew that I should go already so that I could stop being a homosexual (everyone nodes heads in agreement), and he hoped that I would fail because I m sure he thought to himself that I m not man enough, that I am weak that I was a stabane (homosexual) whatever, whatever. And I always used to think you know what fine you know that is even more motivation to do it you know even, even if they would say I go tomorrow I would go just to get it over and done with and show them that you know what I m not a little bitch. Participant 3: Oh so you ve never been afraid? Participant1: No I ve never been Participant 3: Laughs Participant 1: I have always been cool when it comes to that. Because I have always told myself that it will come and pass. Researcher: And what was your experience?

Participant 3: No for me it was very stressful because honestly my family didn t put much pressure on me because they wanted me to be ready and they never uhm; they just wanted me to be ready. And then I told my mom that now I was ready so I can go but then the community on the other hand was always putting pressure on me because they wanted me to be man and stop being homosexual so (.) but I myself was very stressful because I didn t know what I would go and do there (laughs). I never even knew if I would come back there and they were even saying that I wouldn t make it and that made me even doubt myself more because I was not confident because I thought it s just for men and I remember my last week before I went I was very stressful. I think I was not even eating because of the pressure and I was really scared. Participant 1: Yes both pressure and anxiety Participant3: But when I was now there, there was not much pressure and I was treated like any other initiate. Everything was just fine. It was no longer a matter of being gay or whatever, everyone was the same. Researcher: So you were all treated the same? Participant 3: Yes they did regardless of whether you re gay or not, and some of them they never new. Participat2: That was the same experience I got when I was there. I never got pressure because I was gay. I even wanted to go a year before I actually did nut they said I must go a year after. So there was no pressure there was nothing on me. Everything was (.) like I was treated equally like everybody else. Researcher: And there was no isolation? Participant 2: No not at all. Participant 1: The thing is when you are there, they see exactly as anybody else (.) remember everybody is a beginner there so you will all progress around about the same time. It s like you all have one mind, you all have one goal at the end of the day. There is no discrimination because you all in one place. The fact that one is there means you re not a coward you know. But for me I m just saying that I think I got some, I don t know a bit of attention. I don t know maybe there was something there with my care taker because (.)= Participant3: Or a fling Participant 1: Not a fling. So I think that s why I got a bit of privilege but other I didn t have time for them. Not that I was chicky or anything= Participant 3: So when you were there [ Participant 1: Yes, I m old and I was in charge. I had my ideology you know. No one really came and said I must do this and that, I don t know what s the word, I m not a () I don t know what they perception is Researcher: So what do you think is the main aim of ulwaluko? Participant 3: Uhm Researcher: For you the aim may be a bit different because there was hope that you will change. (General agreement through nodding head) Participant 1: From whom? Researcher: From society, parents, family friends and community Participant 2: Well it s expected that you reach a certain stage as a boy you need to go for circumcision. They want to change you so that you re a male. That is their aim. For you to change and become a man so that you can gain independence and all that. I don t think there was anything else. I think in our case they wanted to change us from being yourself as a boy you were gay you re gona sleep around and all that; they wanted to change us so that we could be different now. They wanted us to be straight men.

Participant 1: My mother () she wanted me to get it over and done with. She did not want me to become a 25 year old boy. People will start labelling 25 year old boys. So she wanted me just to get it over and done with and finish it as anything that has to be finished in life. But in terms of my father I think it was more (.) it was bad I must say. He had doubts on whether I would do it or not. He wondered whether I had it in me or not. He thought maybe I would get disciplined there and then become a man and stop what I am doing. I got pressurised at school. People would ask me when I am going to the mountain. Some of them new because I told them when I will go but I just ignored the rest. () it was a big issue for me. Researcher: So was it more of your choice to go there? Did you make the decision for yourself that you wanted to go for circumcision? Participant 3: I had no choice its juts something that was expected so they didn t even give me a choice. So I just knew that I had to go so I did not have a say. Participant 2: My choice was to go a year earlier which did not happen. Participant 3: If I had a choice I wouldn t have gone but. = Participant 1: Can I ask why you wanted to go a year earlier? Participant 2: The guy I had a crush on was in. Researcher: The guy you had a crush on was in Participant2: The year I wanted to go in the guy I had a crush on was there. Researcher: Oh so you wanted to go with him? Participant 2: Yes I wanted to go in with him. Participant 3: Because for me the reason why I say if I had a choice I would not have gone is because I don t even see the aim of going there for me because I know I m gay and I know that nothing is going to change that if I am circumcised I am going to be a man. The real man I m not going to be that so I ll always be gay so I did not see a point for doing it because my behaviour will not change. And I m still a gay I don t know. Participant 1: For me it was more of uhm, I don t know a variety of factors. Firstly health issues I went to go for health issues Researcher: What do you mean for health issues? Participant 1: Like being clean and stuff, so that was a yes you know. I know what that will solve. But I dint like with being with boys. I didn t have anything I could discuss with them. There were no girls to hat with or people who could understand me because a lot of boys are stupid, you know. Researcher: Straight boys? Participant 1: Yes straight boys. All of them, they only think about sex alcohol. Researcher: and what do you think about? Participant 1: I think about heath the future and morals in our society and all that. I want something to stimulate me not someone who will be telling me that I m going to have sex with this one today, or how many people did you have sex with you know what I mean? And would be like am I really gona stay with these types of boys? Participant 3: I too strongly agree with you in that point Participant1: So I really felt like no but then again I have to be neutral because I know that that s what society expects of me, that s my culture. And apart from the fact that I am a homosexual I am a very cultural person. I respect culture you know so I thought you know what let me tick it out. Researcher: What do you think are some of the contradictions between your sexuality and your culture? Participant 1: My sexuality? Researcher: Yes

Participant1: Okay (.) no listen my sexuality the only thing that contradicts is like my partner or myself otherwise my company does not really (.) much worry about my sexuality because you can find gay people who still chill with boys. Who still play rugby, you know who still do men s things it s just that you want to sleep with other men so that s the only thing that differs in terms of sexuality. Ok I will not get married to a woman, but again my culture doesn t really force me to marry, you know it doesn t. Maybe if I was a Muslim or whatever but my culture does not force me to marry Researcher: But there is an expectation though Participant 1: Of a man? Researcher: Of a man marrying a woman. Hence I ask one of the contradictions because you won t get married to a woman= Participant1: Yes I won t but that is not the crux of my culture to marry a woman as long as I do my responsibilities. Researcher: But also are there not different types of homosexuals? There are those who do all the manly things and those who are more feminine. Where would you categorise yourselves? Participant 1: If I were to rank between 1 and 7 with 1 being feminine and 7 being masculine I d place myself at 4. Participant 3: At 4? Participant1: At 4 of famine. I don t enjoy the company of girls, it s like I m a guy but I can be a girl at the same time. I m diverse. Participant 3: Me too I would say I am more feminine. Researcher: Were you more feminine even when you were there in the mountain? Participant 2: I was, I was very Participant 1: I was not Participant 3: I think I was a bit because you know when you are there, there are certain things that you have to learn and those things it took me a very, very hard time learn those things and I did not know how to learn them and my brain found it difficult to grasp them. I think I was at a place where I did not belong. I was so (.) it was so difficult Participant 2: For me I did know, I did learn. I was the queen of my house. Participant 1: You were? Participant 2: I was Participant 1: For me I never had (.) learning the language was difficult Transcription of individual interviews XHM 1 Researcher: Thank you for participating in the study. If you feel that some of the questions are too personal you can voice that. XHM 1: Yes, okay. Researcher: So when did you start realizing your sexuality? XHM 1: Well I d say I grew up knowing that I was different from other boys. I was more attracted to guys not girls. But I grew up knowing I was different, that I was gay, Researcher: Okay, and people around you, did they also notice? XHM 1: (.)Yes, yes, because they were the ones who were like, calling me names and all that, yah Researcher: And what messages did you get from your environment, that is the people around you? XHM 1: Messages in what way.

Researcher: Like what kind of hum [ XHM 1: I d say that people were not really (different) from me. (Distraction of door opening outside) They accepted the way I was that s why I felt free to be who I am, to express myself yah. Researcher: Okay, so you felt accepted XHM 1: But not all of them (laughter) Researcher: Not all of them? So you got mixed messages? XHM 1: Yes Researcher: And how did you experience that? XHM 1: Well I didn t care what people thought about me (.) yah, I just took (.) I just respected myself and went there and be myself (slight laugh) I just (.) live my life that s all Researcher: Ok (2) uhm Ok seems like you took a decision and obviously you decided that you are going to live your own life the way you wanted to live it, isn t it? XHM 1: Yes Researcher: Alright, and so when you as a person thinks what would you say (.) like how did it affect you (.) although you decided you re gona live your life. XHM 1: Like I had a low, a very low self-esteem, yah it did affect me, I was not confident in a way I would have loved to be like when I was growing up but I think things have changed now. Researcher: So things have changed? XHM 1: Yah things have changed, thanks to a friend. Researcher: Thanks to a friend. XHM 1: Yes thanks to him. Researcher: So he has been a good influence? XHM 1: Influence yah (laughs) good yes Researcher: And how has this affected your view of your community as in the people you live with your view of your culture? XHM 1: Uhm (3) can you repeat the question? Researcher: You said that you got mixed messages right? XHM 1: But also fortunately for you there were people who were positive and so obviously you made conclusions about people who were around you, your community so I m asking how has it affected your understanding of them, how do you see, how do you view your community now in respect to how they treated you. XHM 1: Okay, mostly the community (.) half of the community did not accept the homosexuals, the other half does. All I did was to surround myself with people who like respected me and well not judgmental of what I am. Researcher: Okay, uhm and what is your understanding of manhood? XHM 1: Well manhood is going to the what (2) okay, can you repeat the question please. Researcher: What is your understanding of manhood? XHM 1: Well manhood is the man s thingy (laughter), manhood is the penis, and it s what like okay I d say when I grew up, right, manhood is when a boy goes to the mountain or the bush and comes back as a man. So manhood is like the circumcision of the boy, from boy to a man, yah. Researcher: Ok so when a boy goes for circumcision, that s manhood for you? XHM 1: Yah since I grew up in a community believing in that. Researcher: So after he comes back from circumcision school he is seen as a man by the community, so that how you also see manhood? XHM 1: Yah. Researcher: Ok um (2) and what made you decide to go to [

XHM 1: It s not that I had to decide, like it s expected that when you reach a certain age as a boy you have to go, so it s not that () but I did want to go a year before but my parents wanted me to go a year after Researcher: So you did want to go? XHM 1: Yes Researcher: Even though you were homosexual XHM 1: Yes Researcher: And what made you decide that [ XHM 1: [LISTERN my sexuality has nothing to do with my culture. I, I believe that WHO I choose to love and who I choose to be with has no like effect on my culture. I had to do this because I was a boy, I had to become a man forget who I sleep with or whatever Researcher: Okay, that s interesting so would you say you view yourself as (.) How do you view yourself? XHM 1: Look I m a man, a homosexual man, that s all. Researcher: Okay (1) alright uhm and how did you experience (.) like after the incision you have to call yourself a man. How did you feel when you had to say ndiyindoda? XHM 1: Well, I d say that there was pain after the circumcision, right? Researcher: Mmmh XHM 1: So I had to say that oh, how do I feel (3) it was scary at first, quite scary at first but after a while everything was fine (3) Researcher: So it was scary but afterwards everything was fine. Okay uhm and what did that mean for you, to say that? XHM 1: It just meant that I m no longer a boy now I m a man Researcher: And umh (.) and what would a woman be to you? How do you view a woman? XHM 1: Well its friend, a sister (.) yah a friend and a sister. Researcher: A friend and a sister (.) even if they are not female? So to you a woman doesn t necessarily have to be female. When I say female or male I m referring to sex obviously you know= XHM 1: =Yes= Researcher: So it doesn t have to be female even if someone is male in terms of their sex biologically you d see them as a woman? XHM 1: Yes. Researcher: Okay. How would you say the experience of ulwaluko has impacted on you? XHM 1: Well I d say I ve changed more or less in many ways. I m more, I m more matured I could say (.) I m more matured yah Researcher: How did your community regard you after you had come back from circumcision school? XHM 1: Well, like they saw me like any other man regardless of my sexuality yah. Researcher: So you were not treated differently? XHM 1: Well half of the community did treat me like differently yah. Mostly the elders Researcher: Mostly the elders, so the elders treated you differently, XHM 1: (nodes his head) Researcher: Okay, so because of that experience of being treated differently then how do you view the whole, do you think that it s relevant, the whole circumcision culture? XHM 1: Well I still think culture is culture it has nothing to do with your sexuality so it s still relevant, as a boy you still have to this to become a man. So forget what others treat you or see you as what, just do your culture Researcher: Thank you (laughter) thank you for the honesty.

XHM 2 Researcher: Thank you for taking part in the study. XHM 2: It s my pleasure. Researcher: I m gona ask you a few questions which I don t regard as too personal but uhm if you feel like you don t wana answer you are not forced. XHM 2: Okay Researcher: When did you start realizing that you were homosexual? XHM 2: Uhm I, well I never knew that I was a homosexual pe se because I didn t know the term but I knew that I was attracted to males from a very young age you know ever since I can remember, I was never ever attracted to females before so () Researcher: And what messages did you get from your environment, from your people around you regarding your sexuality? XHM 2: Homosexuality was viewed as a negative thing, uhm it was kind of taboo in society you know. Uhm a lot of name calling from the males especially. Uhm and girls are more accepting the homosexuality thing, so I used to associate myself a lot with girls but uhm it was very negative, it was very negative feelings you know and they were the ones who used to point it out that you re homosexual, you re homosexual! Researcher: The guys or the girls? XHM 2: The guys, the guys, the girls never touched it, but from the male species it was quite negative. Researcher: And what sense did you make out of these like messages. How did you view them? So obviously you got a certain reaction from girls and a certain reaction from males so= XHM 2: =At the end I hated that I was a homosexual, you know. Although I knew that there was nothing I can do about it I hated it but at the same time I loved it because that was me you know and I, I try to () but in terms of the community I used to hate being labelled you know. Hate being associated with something negative although I knew. () so it was quite daunting at times. Researcher: Okay, how has this affected you now, well let s start with how did it affect you then and how has it affected you now? XHM 2: That is a personal question. Uhm I associated myself from the early days, like you associate yourself with girls, right, and you segregate yourself from guys you know, so I, I knew that you know you re gonna get the name calling in every corner you walk in at the street corner so I had to toughen myself up because I was a very sensitive person when I was growing up so I had to toughen myself up. So instead of saying that I was weak and very sensitive to the comments made towards me and uhm the labels they gave me I the stood up you know I, I had to get this brick wall, I had to be so confident and told myself like act and fight you know. Almost like I became this bold person, bold this load. This very opinionated, I can get through anything person. Although I knew that you know it was only a front. So I grew up with that, I grew up with that. People seeing that I was uhh, uhh a bitchy person, a bitchy assertive uhm over dramatic person you know. And uhm yah, I wouldn t mind (.) I kind of utilized it you know I kind of saw that you know what its good sometimes to be load and to, to give that impression that you re this over confident and this uhm self, self, yah selfassertive person but again show them your sensitive side, show them that you are human and a lot of people tend to take advantage of that you know. You have to choose the person you like to confide with you know who you like [can t hear the last two sentences] Researcher: And you had to toughen up=

XHM 2: =I had to toughen up because it s a taught world so I had to, to show the society that they can t peep through, that they can t penetrate. Researcher: Them being the man? XHM 2: Them being the society, yes, people who didn t approve of sexuality, of homosexuality and generally men especially the guys at school they never used to understand you know. Although all the girls, some of them not understanding they would chill, they, they liked me you know, I have a good personality and good vibe but the guys always used to feel intimidated by this guy you know so they never used to accept me they wanted to just () me like that so yah. Researcher: How has this affected your view of the community, of your community? XHM 2: Of my community. Well I feel like my community uhm (.) dissociate themselves from something that they don t understand, something they don t know you know uhm its, its, it s that voice that says this is wrong. They don t see otherwise, they don t, they know straight that this is wrong even if they try you know. It s like, it s like it s a spreading thing, if one person thinks you know, this is wrong, they re going to follow basically. You hardly, you seldom find that somebody will have their own opinion over something and say you know what I don t understand it, yes but () they see me from a very young age. I used to, I never used to understand that, they know me from grade I don t know, not even grade, like ¾ you know they could see that I was a homosexual yet (.) so where do they think that I picked that up you know. It must have, it must have been imbedded in me, it must have been me, but they still don t wanna accept that its part of me. They just want to label me and label me, and I used to, I never used to understand that they tried to diminish my self esteem and I am so innocent never did anything to anyone. I m just basically being myself but they will get off by doing that, by telling me that you, you doing this is wrong and you, you filthy names and they would (die) me basically. They know how to, to (.) irrespective names. I (.) they don t know me. () so you end up hating (.) people like that you know, you end up resenting them for, for, for doing that to you. But lucky enough that I was a hard core person that I could see past that, that you know what they just fronting, they re acting up, you know because they re a bunch of boys standing there so they have to cause a scene. But if one of them would come, like if you call one of them you know, get him, him in a car you know I think its peer pressure to say something, to, to say that you are a better man than he is you know kind of thing. So I, I definitely (.) I just take away myself from the whole thing but now I think it s more of uhm you choose your people that you surround yourself with you know. I hope I answered you. Researcher: You have uhmm and what is your understanding of manhood? XHM: manhood to me is excepting responsibility, you know. Being responsible person uhm owning, having your own basically you know, owning your own space in terms of the things you do you know credibility and uhm accounting account for you know does matter to me, you can t (.) if, if you do something you can t rely basically everything on somebody else you know, you have to have your own. You have to do what you have to, to survive you know what I mean, but you re your own person, yah that s what I think manhood is. That s what it is to be a man. When you own your own ideas and you own your own. Researcher: Okay and your understanding of ulwaluko specifically now in terms of cultures aim? XHM 2: Uh the aim, ulwaluko its, it s a tradition yah. I honestly don t understand it. I understand that they re toughening you out there you know to be a man because a man should be needs to b resilient you know so they groom us, they toughen you up

you know they make you a man you know so from the stages that you eat (.) you don t drink water, I had to eat like dry samp for so many days and then there is no water but you have to get your water, but you have to get your food in uhh () I tried to live in uh uhm grass hut you know and I would sleep on the floor in a rug, you know what I mean. That is toughening you up. That says you know what if I can bear this I can bear anything basically you know so why we should seldom hear a man complaining. A man, a true man because you ve been there, I m speaking now in terms of Xhosa culture, because you ve been there. So if you have nothing to eat you know that I can use whatever I have here and make do with what I have because I m a man, I have to cook I have to do this you know. So in terms of the association sometimes ok, let me end there, that what I think a man is in terms of the culture. Researcher: And what made you decide to go into the traditional route of being a man? XHM 2: It was made for me (.) by society. They insisted basically that I had to go at a certain age and I felt a lot of pressure from the guys at school they used to ask when are you going, when are you going you know? And there was a lot of pressure so I had to step up because people knew me as homosexual is viewed to not being a man basically you know. Viewed to some other gender closer to women but far from a man you know so its, its I had to prove myself to my society, to my family, to the guys at school you know, that you know what I can take it, I can be just like you, you know just that my social preferences are different you know () it s not that I really wanted to but yah. Researcher: So would you say that they use the culture to sort of put more pressure in order to change you to be what they want you to be? XHM 2: Would I say that, uhm 50/50. Because again the whole point of initiation school is to train you to be a man basically, their view of a man, so I would say yes in other times they try to show you know their view of man. They teach you staff there you know, staff that I honestly would not abide by, you know the rules I would not normally (.) they, they teach you as a man you are victorious you know, as a man you own the world. It s like you re this person that is a league above the rest just because you did this and to me that is too (.) I don t understand why tradition should change your perspective to something that you re not. That s why newly circumcised guys can be a bit arrogant you know and they get to think that they can get away with murder because uhm they are more like their fathers you know. They are man you know what I mean. I used to really separate myself from their teaching s because I felt that they, they weren t focusing on the challenges in life. They get this view of men and yah the teachings there were not really what I was about to call myself. Researcher: Okay and how did you experience calling yourself a man after the incision? XHM 2: It was forced. It was forced and I was quite indifferent to it () it was like okay you know, but again I give you a definition of my manhood you know. I d be a man by actions and your thought process, you know. You re a man. You re not a man by being there, No, so the only way I am truly a man is when I know that you know what there s no food at home so I need to do something about that or wow my mother needs something to wear so I would get her something to wear, this and this and this, and taking accountability do this and this. That s when I am a man other than that it was really forced because they kind of forced you to say it. So I did it indifferent to it. Researcher: How do you define yourself? XHM 2: (.) I am a homosexual man Researcher: Do you emphasize that man at the end? Or is it a homosexual person? Do you understand my question?

XHM 2: No I, I, got that. I am a homosexual. I am a man. I am a homosexual man you know; I agree to live both of them in me. they are both imbedded in me because the only reason I m homosexual, well not the only reason because I was born this way but I m a man because I grew into a man. That s why I went to circumcision school you know because I grew into a man so now that why I say I am a homosexual man. Researcher: So how has the experience of ulwaluko impacted on you? I think you have answered that? XHM 2: I have but let me answer again. Uhm the experience. It taught me about men. Because you know as boys we used to see that they ve got this (.) a secrete. They ve got this old culture, a trick of their own and you want to know what s in it. But now that I know what the culture is or what they re thinking it gives me insight you know and yah. What was the question again? Researcher: It gave you insight, how has the experience impacted on you. XHM 2: I taught me that. First of all I m not different to any other guy, that I m a man you know. In terms of I can with hold, I can with stand you know the same length they did you know what I mean, hash has factors. Not that I needed to learn that but that reinforcement that I too can maintain like they did. Other than that it really hasn t changed much, yah that I can withstand pain and hunger. Otherwise in terms of teachings I really haven t gained anything just that I can go and take my part in the male world other than that nothing has changed except my physical body. Researcher: It has not really effected on your sexual identity. Because you had that even before the experience hey? XHM: I had it before the experience yes, they used to in terms of being more comfortable about it yes, yes because afterwards I actually I got more respected you know by the community as a guy, as a man, they said you know what even though you re a girl when you com e back from the in initiation school, when you come back you will be a man. You know. But they said that I am a man because I did everything a man does, so they got to accept me. You k now guys, guys that k now me, my community had accepted me as a homosexual man you know that I am equal to them just that my sexual preferences were different. You k now so it s been more positive I that sense. Because you know they look at me now as an equal and they try to understand me where I m coming from, yah. Researcher: So it s actually been a positive experience for you? XHM: well yah, in not so ma n y words. In, in reference to me in terms of my () they re there but in terms of the impact around me it s been positive because they view me as an equal. Even my parents are like no this is how you are, you know. There s really nothing we can t do about it. Researcher: Were you treated differently when you were there at the bush and afterwards? XHM 2: Treated differently by whom? Researcher: Still by your community. You said yourself that people k new from when you were you that you were gay right so it was n ever a secrete = XHM 2: =It was not a secrete but it was never something that was stated. I was not; I was never, Researcher there were scandals about seeing me with guys or whatever. It was never something like I m gay so deal with it. It was more like I m a girl kind but you couldn t see how practical kin d of thing. So yah. There I was not treated differently; even so I had a boyfriend there. My boyfriend used to me and visit uhm quite often actually, probably three times a week so he d come and I could see that they saw that no, something is happening here. But again they respected me you k now and also I was 18 when I finished in school but I was you than most of them were. So I used to keep to myself a bit. I was me, I was doing me. So they respected that because I was

doing everything they were doing and that I have a boyfriend. And after that I did not take parting the new circumcised boys, guys because I used to hang around with my boyfriend a lot to avoid being asked to do the whole men talk. So I stayed with my boyfriend the whole time until I went out and became normal again. Researcher: Would you like to add anything? XHM 2: Uhm generally I think the, the, I think honestly the circumcision culture has lost its original, you know because again in initiation school was supposed to be teaching you and breading you for manhood you know. And they don t do that unfortunately they don t do that you know. They give you a subordinate view of the world you know and I wish they would get people who knew how to mentor people, you know mentor young boys to becoming men. But they just get these () people who don t have much thing good really you know and yah they talk, really it s not something that you can hold on to because even after you go to initiation school that period only lasts six months tops and then you re back to your old self again. What did you learn? Nothing you know what I mean you might have changed your way of thinking yes, but again you re that same guy with brand new clothes and maybe another look. But again you re the same guy. So I wish they would get people who have been trained to mentor young boys becoming you men you know. And even though they might not be ready but at least you had () so that you d respect it when they say do this and do this, this is a man s job and I feel well to do that and I don t even understand the fact that the clothes that you wear straight after you come from the initiation school are a white men s. you know a suite, the tie and the cap was given to the, the guys when they went to look for work I think in the very early years in the 60, 50 or 40s whatever so it was kind of an urbanization of black men you now here before you go look for work to a white men. So it s more urbanized and more western. I would appreciate if I were to go out and wear my traditional clothes I public to be seen that I come from initiation school. Don t give me a suit to wear. You know what I mean, it s (.) I think people have slammed it up. They have made it more western ad they ve left the, the significance of the culture, of the ritual. Researcher: Thank you very much XHM 2: Pleasure. XHM 3 Researcher: Thank you for taking part in the study. Can we start? XHM 3: Yes Researcher: What is your age? XHM 3: 19 Researcher: What are your views on ulwaluko? XHM 3: My perception of ulwaluko is that it is when a Xhosa boy goes to the bush to become a man. There are some processes that happen there so they are gona be taught of the hardship of becoming a man and yah that s the view of ulwaluko. Researcher: And what do you think is the main aim of ulwaluko? XHMs: I think the main aim of ulwaluko is to change a boy to behave like a man. To change his behaviour and for him to think like a man and so on but sometimes that doesn t happen. Some people just become even more naughty and they start drinking and they think men should do all those crazy things like going to the club and drinking a lot. They miss the aim because of peer pressure. Researcher: Do you feel you had a choice? XHM 3: Most definitely not. I didn t have a choice. It was something that I had to do no matter what. My thoughts or inputs were just useless. It s something that I must do no

matter what they didn t care about what I said. It was so very hard for me because I didn t have so much choices they just wanted me to go there and there was nothing I can do and if I refused to go there my community wouldn t have treated me the same as other men. I would have been treated unfairly and criticized. And even if there was a ritual I wouldn t have an input I would have been taken as a useless boy. I m gay so I see no point of doing it because I know I m not going to change who I am because of circumcision. They thought that being circumcised would change me. Researcher: Was there a sense of pressure from family? XHM 3: On my family no. They just wanted me to know that someday I will go there as this is something that has been going on for generations and you just have to bear it in mind that one day you will go there no matter what. From the community, they sometimes did put pressure on me because they did know that I was gay and to them the whole point of going to circumcision to the bush was for me to change my perspective and to act like a man and stop acting like a woman but unfortunately that did not happen because I was born gay. Researcher: So they thought= XHM 3: = They thought I was going to change but to me being gay is not something that I wanted to do because if I did have a choice I wouldn t have been gay, but it s something that I cannot change no matter how I try to hide. If I try to change, then I will just explode like a bomb eventually. Researcher: What sexual role would you say you play in your intimate relationship? XHM 3: It s as clear as day light (laughter) a woman- a female because I ve been always playing with girls since I was a child and I dreamed of having a transgender to become a woman so I thought that is when I will be happiest the world I didn t feel I belonged in it and the whole point of (.) I don t like being gay because I just wanted to be a woman. I don t like being called it (gay). I would sometimes cry when I was teased and deny it at all cost with hopes that I will change the way I am and be a boy that my family and community want me to be. Researcher: Do you see any contradiction between your sexuality and your culture in terms of ulwaluko? XHM 3: Oh yes a lot because it s really against their belief traditionally. They just don t want to accept it. Sometimes they do try their effort to understand you but it s just against their beliefs and my family is more religious and whenever there is conversation about my being gay they just quote the bible and say God created Adam and Eve and they say this thing was not there in their growing up time. My sexuality clashes with my religion and culture. It just doesn t fit according to them. Researcher: How does your family and community react to your sexuality? XHM 3: I m gona start with my family. My mom doesn t support that I am gay but she can see that I am. There is no need to ask. It s just useless to ask, it s just clear but in her but in her heart she just hopes and prays that my son will just stop this stupid thing of being gay and whenever in her mind the gay word comes she just thinks of you having sex with another man and to her it s so disgusting. And to her it s all about having sex with another man. To her it s just a terrible thing, she not bear it, it s very disgusting and I dint think she will ever understand it but she doesn t have a choice because no matter what I remain her child. Unfortunately I do not have a relationship with my father and my father s family side were not invited to my circumcision because my mom insisted that it be done in a Christian way because she is saved and is against all the African customs. And even there I did not have a choice to choose a traditional umgidi (initiation homecoming) or a Christian umgidi. Not that I cared. Researcher: What effect (if any) do these reactions have on you?

XHM 3: It affected my confidence because I did not have much confidence. I tried not to be gay and I wouldn t wear outfits that were feminine and at home I would quickly change it and I didn t want my mom to know my friends because at school I got along with girls. I must say that it made me to live two different lives At once. Researcher: How would you define a man? XHM 3: A man is someone who takes responsibility for his actions who doesn t complain and who is just independent. Researcher: How does your culture define a man? XHM 3: Someone who takes care of the family. An obligation of doing good responsibilities. Researcher: In the ulwaluko tradition at the moment of incision, the initiate has to announce ndiyindoda. What was this experience like for you? XHM 3: Okay (.) that moment. That moment was terrible. And saying that I m a man, I just said it. It did not come from the bottom of my heart. I had say it and I just wished the whole process could be as quick as possible because I knew what was coming after saying it. I just said it for their sake. I did not feel like I was a complete man. Researcher: How did you experience being an initiate? XHM 3: Very hard because you have to learn to be your own. To be independent. You have to learn all the hardships of being a man and realizing that in life there are gonna be certain circumstances that you will have to conquer on your own without involving parents because now you are no longer a child. You re entering a new world. My interaction with the other bakhwetha was good but sometimes I felt desperately lonely and there was no one to understand how I feel but I was trying to be the best that I can be there. But I was pretending which was so very hard. And the lessons that were taught there were so hard to understand and I could not concentrate well and absorb all the information given to me. It was so confusing I didn t know why I had to know all these things. Because this is not me, because even if I was out there I would just live my life the way I want to. So to me being there was not useful. To me being circumcised at hospital was not different than staying there. And even if I had a choice would have preferred to go to hospital. On the other hand being circumcised at hospital a () look you ll be criticised and not be taken as a man. You ll be given such terrible nasty, nasty names, so I was praying that I will succeed eventually there and come back alive because I was so afraid of dying because I was not so strong to cope with the situation there. I did isolate myself because hanging around with other initiates was like I m in a strange world because I didn t know what to say or what not to say. The worst part is that I didn t even fit in their conversations and what I did the most was to pretend and say something just to have a say. Just to fit in there. The other initiates treated me differently and teased me a lot of the time except for the teachers or elders there. Researcher: If you were given a choice, would you go for initiation school again? XHM 3: Absolutely not, I wouldn t do it. It s just a terrible experience for me. I was full of stress before going. Sometimes I wouldn t eat. I didn t know that ill make it. I was too thin. The thought of not eating properly, I m not even 50 kgs. I did not think that I would cope. And before I went there I lost a few more kilos and losing more kilos was such a night mare because I m already thin and my family realized this and tried to reason with me that everything was fine. And I couldn t even focus on exams because I had to go right after I finished. I think I finished writing on Wednesday and Thursday I had to go so you can imagine! Researcher: Would you like to add anything else? XHM 3: No. (.) I didn t go and socialize with the amakrwala and those months (of ubukrwala) seemed like forever. I hated the blazer and everything. It just was not for

me. and I just locked myself at home hoping that the time would be faster so that I can be myself again to such an extent that I was so bored, uncomfortable of being an ikrwala and I was expecting the community to say nasty things like oh this mofie is now an ikrwala and I lasted a month with the clothes and my family planned that I should be an ikrwala for 6 months so that I can gain the respect and dignity as a man. But to me I couldn t bear the part of pretending anymore. The terrible journey for me was ending now. I just wanted to be free. I just wish that parents should respect their child s view on ulwaluko and give them an option if they want to be circumcised in traditional or hospital way and I wish if the stigma could end when you have chosen hospital way and not be criticised. XHM 4 Researcher: Thank you for taking part in the study. My name is Anathi. I m doing a masters degree in psychology and I m doing research on perceptions of circumcised Xhosa homosexual men after being circumcised. It s just your views, uhm I m not gona ask you the specific things that happen there because obviously I m Xhosa speaking person as well so I know the rules around it XHM 4: around it= Researcher: Yes around it, so what s your view on (.) we can do it in English, Xhosa or both XHM 4: Let s mix it, yah Researcher: Okay so what s your view on ulwaluko? XHM 4: for me personally (.) it was uhm, it was a point where (.) it was something that needed to be done because it s within the tradition. If I had a choice to do it or not I think I would still go for it because everybody else does, but not (.) not because there is something in ulwaluko that I actually saw. It s just a transition that everybody (.) every Xhosa person has to go through but were I not brought up in a different (.) in a Xhosa culture I wouldn t understand the practice. Researcher: Okay, so you only did it for traditional purposes? XHM 4: Yes Researcher: Okay, uhm and what do you think is the main aim of the whole tradition? XHM 4: It s a transition between (.) from, from boyhood to manhood and that s where the general misconception is because going there doesn t mean that you then suddenly a man so that s where the (.) why do you do it if you re not a man after you do it. Because it s not being circumcised that makes you a man. It s the things you do after circumcision that actually make you a man. Researcher: When were you circumcised? XHM 4: I was circumcised in 2005. Researcher: In 2005, and what is your age? XHM 4: I am 24; I was 18 at the time (of circumcision) Researcher: Uhm (.) so do you feel that you had a choice uhm I think you answered that because you did it because it was something that was done. XHM 4: Everybody else does it, it s expected. Researcher: And in your relationships what sexual role do you play? XHM 4: (laughs) in my relationships, ok uhm (.) I, I am the man or I am the top in the relationship yah. Researcher: Do you see a contradiction between your culture and your sexuality? XHM 4: Not really, uhm if you actually go to someone who is older than me they would see a contradiction but the way I ve been brought up is that you remain true to (form) and this is who I am, I don t think my culture should clash with that and up to now it hasn t clashed with that.