This is Lincoln Bergman. And I'm here with Vernon Bellecourt who is national director of the American- Indian Movement, or AIM. He's just come out to Berkeley; recently was in Wounded Knee itself, then I believe went to the United Nations as a representative of the Independent Oglala Sioux Nation. Perhaps you could begin by giving people a general idea of what you think the most important issues that are raised by Wounded Knee. We recognized in Wounded Knee, as was the case at the Bureau of Indian Affairs Occupation during election week November 1st through the 7th. That the primary purpose of the American-Indian Movement has been as catalytic organization that was going to focus not only national attention, but international attention on the -- what has become a national disgrace in this country, the conditions in which people are forced to live. And we did that in Washington D.C., and of course, we're doing it again in Wounded Knee. Now, we recognize that in addition to the confrontation that's taking place between the Sovereign Oglala people at Wounded Knee, the American-Indian Movement, and of course, and other Indian people, other tribes representatives there. It's not only a confrontation against the bureaucratic oppression of the United States Government, the Department of the Interior and the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Most important, we see it as a confrontation with the conscience of America and the conscience of the world. One of the aspects of what's gone on has been the Declaration of Independence. That's something, which a lot of the mass media has treated with either a scorn or just a slight reference, and essentially talking about the details of negotiations or whatever. Perhaps you could expand on the significance of that for people. Well, Indian people, and particularly the young people today who have taken a very active role in the American-Indian Movement have recognized that for close to 482 years, Indian people have tried to demonstrate, we've tried to oppose westward expansion of the European culture in our land, which we recognize could survive and could go on by itself. But what they've tried to do is they've tried to assimilate and brainwash us into -- bring our people into that mainstream. And in doing so, our people have become poor. We recognize that the -- our efforts toward just entering the so-called mainstream, the melting pot concept, which has not only failed our people, but has failed a lot of people in this country. That we have exhausted our diplomatic efforts. We have negotiated, we have pleaded, our people have been going to Washington for years, and nothing changes, the conditions get worse. So, what is happening in Wounded Knee when a Declaration of Sovereignty was made, it's a start. It's a start of a revolution amongst the Indian people today. Not only a revolution that's taking place within our own existing tribal form of government on the reservations. But we recognize that we have to take a position of sovereignty in relationship to the treaties. Sovereign treaty are conventionally ratified treaties was made with Indian nations as sovereign people. And it's really immoral at this time to suggest that, and negotiating those treaties that we should play it by their ground rules within their judicial system, within their courts. We have never gotten a fair shake there in any area. So, we recognize that we have to deal with the treaties on a basis of a sovereign nation. The Oglala people in particular have seen the corruption, the theft against their lands, the leasing policy of that
particular government in Pine Ridge has totally failed their people. While the bureaucracy gets stronger, and they can buy more guns, and buy more police cars and other type of equipment, and build bigger buildings on a bureau of affairs agency at Pine Ridge and throughout the country. And the people -- the reservation people -- the Indian people are still suffering from -- with a 42-year life expectancy, we're still suffering at three times the national average of suicide -- infant mortality rate, and a five times the national average suicide rate. Chronic ill health and diseases, you have to prevail in reservations that have cured in the white world. So, when we can see these kinds of conditions, we recognize that we -- the system has totally failed us, and now we should have the right to total self-determination. Which our interpretation is total selfgovernment. And this is -- it's a whole new attitude being created at Wounded Knee, and will continue to become a reality. When you referred to revolution, could you say a little bit more about what you mean and also, like some of the beginning fundamental goals of that would be. Well, I guess just saying the term revolution, which has become a stereotype in itself, it leads to people to believe that it's a violent revolution or it has to be some type of thing where we're going to assassinate all, you know, groups of people. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about basically, a philosophical revolution, which is really going to free our people. We see today amongst the new generation, we see people who are in fact willing to put meaning into those words of support and the words of sympathy. And so, when we talk about revolution, we're talking about a philosophical revolution brought about by confrontation. By political confrontation, and we - Russell Means termed it confrontation politics. We recognize that unfortunately, we live within a system, we live in a society in our country here exists a society that unfortunately, you know, only respond to some kind of strong confrontation. And we recognize that and we can see the success we've had already in that. The budget and the Bureau of Indian Affairs for fiscal year 1974 has been, I understand, increased by 15 percent. So, we can see that our efforts are already materializing. Now, we are bringing about a new awareness. And the revolution, as I indicated before, is taking place not only in the reservations against -- you know, there are a lot of responsible tribal leaders in this country, and I'm not trying to throw them all into the same category, but we see in some of the reservations, the people are being abused. They're getting poorer, the conditions of poverty are getting worse. And we realize that we have to have some type of revolution to bring about these changes so that we can exist and survive as a society. So, what does that mean in terms of, say, the structure? I know in Wounded Knee, for example, with Oglala Sioux, there's a clear demand to get rid of Dick Wilson. And perhaps you could talk about it in that sense and in the sense of the new structures that are just beginning to be set up in Wounded Knee. And also, maybe explain to people who aren't familiar with him, exactly what you see as what's wrong with Dick Wilson and that kind of leadership. Well, I can only relay the information that I've gotten from the Oglala people, and some of the issues that they've raised. There's been two attempts by responsible Indian people in the Oglala Pine Ridge
Reservation to remove their existing tribal chairman. They have recognized that he's become a puppet of Washington, and in fact, was never really an advocate of Indian people. And they can see the leasing process taking process taking place, yet, where whole sections of land are being leased illegally and transfer of lands are taking place illegally by their leasing department. They have charged him with nepotism, which involves hiring of all his relatives, et cetera. This is another bona fide complaint that the Oglala people have. They just indicated to us very strongly that they no longer want that kind of puppet government. And they're wanting to cast it off. In doing so, the Oglala people and the American-Indian Movement people, our organization met with the traditional chiefs on the Pine Ridge Reservation. It's always been our feeling that the -- being the American-Indian Movement is a traditional organization; going back to our traditional way of life, our traditional ties, values, standards, et cetera, a religion. That the tribal form of government, the form of government existed a -- set up by government -- by Washington some years back. Their whole question of their policy for the past 40 years is being threatened. And of course, this is why they're opposing any type of stand by the people up there. So, we had meetings with the traditional chiefs -- the seven chiefs, and it's the wishes of the Oglala people to restore the government back to the chiefs who were in fact, serving and advocate to their people. And so, this is what's happening as far as the issue on the Pine Ridge Reservation's concern. Could you tell me a little bit about what happened at the United Nations? [Interposing] first, maybe I should say that delegation went there to seek recognition of foreign governments for the independent [Interposing] Right. We have recognized in the past several delegations from the Indian nations have went to Europe. And they have had real strong feeling that these various governments, neutral governments abroad was interested in the plight of the Indian people. And we went to the United Nations because we recognized a grave situation that existed at Wounded Knee then, and still exists. We have the military, the marshals and the FBI agents from the federal government once again assembled on the Oglala Reservation, they're very much the same way they were assembled there 82 years ago at the Wounded Knee Massacre. There once again, therein is a question of their legality of being there. But nonetheless, they are there and it does pose a threat. And to try to avert another massacre here in this land, which could quite possibly happen; we got other countries involved. We got other countries concerned, and of course, our trip to the United Nations, we met with Assistant Secretary General under Kurt Waldheim. Mr. Waldheim would have met with us, but he was in Paris at the Paris Peace Talks, I understand. But this other man indicated very clearly that even though there was a lot of sympathy, that in the security council itself, they would have to have a member nation introduce a resolution. At this time, we have Indian people in New York, our representatives in New York City are in fact working with these various -- some of these countries on its security council to still get a resolution introduced. To draw international attention to this situation. At the same time, right now, it's my understanding that five people from the newly formed Ogallala Sovereign Nation are also on their way to New York. And there will be efforts to seek them as a Sovereign Nation. And once we can start airing our grievances in front of the world, perhaps then change will come about.
There was no response of any government that immediately would say yes, we would [Interposing] -- No. We are still making those contacts at this time. Would you care to say which governments you were most interested in contacting? Well, we have had some interest, you know, by Sweden, Denmark and other countries like that. Some black nations had indicated -- I can't even name them now. But several countries have showed some concern. The book Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, which I am in no way trying to plug, but it did focus international tension on Wounded Knee. And then, when the Wounded Knee incident took place here, the whole world automatically knew what happened at Wounded Knee before, and of course, with the whole world focused on Wounded Knee, I think this is what averted a possible massacre. The struggle in South Dakota has some recent background to it that I don't know if -- it certainly didn't receive as much publicity as this one has received, having to do with the struggle and Custer and so on. Perhaps you could fill people in on that. Now, we have recognized that in several of the non-indian communities that border or are contiguous to reservations, the whole economy depends on the monies that Indian people spend in those communities. It's ironic that those same communities are the ones that are practicing over to racism against the Indian people. The Indian people are assaulted, they're arrested, they're charged with drunkenness when they're not drunk so they can impose fines on them to get their money. Even as a scepter, as parasites living off the economy from the Indian people that they abuse them. We can see up there, as we've seen in the Raymond Yellow Thunder murder of Northwest and Nebraska, a complete double standard of justice that we have in this country affecting the Indian people. We know that the prisons are crammed, you know, as many as a third of the prisons in this country are populated by Indian men and women. And when we see that we only represent 850,000 people, we have to definitely question the judicial system. So, we found a case in Buffalo Gap where a man by the name of Wesley Bad Heart Bull, a young Indian man, Ogallala, was accosted on the street and a fight broke out, and he defended himself. And there was a threat made that we'll get him. And the next day, in fact, they got him and they ran a knife into him and killed him. The murderer, who was non-indian, was immediately arrested. And at the discretion of the county attorney, who turned out to be another racist, imposed our -- at his discretion, charged the man with second-degree manslaughter, where all evidence pointed to at least a first-degree murder charge. He was immediately placed on bail on $5,000. In another county, a man by the name of Harold Withorne Jr., an Indian man, was alleged to have been in the proximity of an area where a woman -- a white woman -- was murdered. And on the testimony of
somebody who was intoxicated at the time, either heard or overheard somebody saying that Harold Withorne Jr. was involved in that. This man was arrested, he was held for 18 to 20 days without bond, you know, completely contrary to the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, prohibiting excessive bonds, and held without a bond, and charged with first-degree murder. So, this is just the kind of prime examples of the double standard of justice. At that time, our national field director, Dennis Banks called a national Indians Rights Day at Custer, South Dakota and asked that all concerned Indian people and chapters of our organization assemble in Custer, South Dakota. Once again, it was the Ogallala people that responded. Almost every one of the men that was arrested, I think there was 47 arrested, 46 were Ogallala(s) dealing with that issue why the murder of their brother. So, they went to Custer, South Dakota to stand firm, confront the establishment in that area and tell them that no more were we going to tolerate these kinds of injustice. Again, we were confronted, we went there unarmed, again, we were assaulted by the police and of course, the whole world seen that fight on TV. We took the clubs away, and we had to defend ourselves. So Custer, South Dakota will no doubt become a memorial, and of this country, an Indian resistance; the new Indian struggle, the sovereign people's revolution actually started once again, ironically enough at Custer, South Dakota. So, we've had the occasion to deal with Custer twice in these last two centuries. Mm-hmm. Before we go onto talk about some more about Wounded Knee and the American-Indian movement in general; maybe people would be interested in knowing something about you? Your life. Well, I'm Ojibwa. The white man calls us Chippewa(s), but we're from the Ojibwa Nation, I'm from White Earth, Minnesota. Lived on the reservation until I was 15, and also, because of the assimilation process, and the education system, you know, that preparing us all to enter into the great mainstream of white America. I also left the reservation and traveled throughout the country for some years. I've been in business, I've done many things, but about 5-6 years ago when the American-Indian movement formed, I again, went back to that organization knowing that I could serve all Indian people through that organization. And of course, in doing so, really contribute something to mankind and bring about a change for everyone. So, that's basically my involvement. Since August of last year, I was made National Director -- if titles mean anything -- I'm solely responsible at this time for rallying political support. I'm on a fundraising tour; I'm speaking at various colleges in an effort to raise money for the Wounded Knee defense fund, which several people in this area are working on at the present time. So, that's really my role. Important work on the outside that has to be done to gain support for our brothers at Wounded Knee. What kind of things are you asking people to do to support? Well, we're hoping that everybody will mobilize and support the Wounded Knee defense fund. United Bank of Denver, 17th and Broadway Street in Denver, Colorado.