BEYOND THEOLOGY Science & Spirituality (Program #105) Host: Do you think it s possible to integrate a scientific worldview with religion and spirituality? If you re interested in such things, you might want to stick around. Announcer: Production funding for this program has been provided in part by the Shumaker Family Foundation promoting social and environmental justice, education, spirituality and the arts. Narrator: Since the advent of the scientific method of observing the world and testing theories about how the universe functions, people have been struggling with how to reconcile science and spirituality. One relies primarily upon a rational, logical, and intellectual approach, while the other draws heavily upon feelings, emotions and intuitive insights. It becomes a personal challenge for us to integrate in our own lives these different ways of knowing. But many scientists consider themselves to be spiritual, and many spiritually oriented individuals appreciate the revelations provided by science. Recently, attempts to integrate science and spirituality have focused on the study of consciousness itself and how it may be evolving. (Program title comes in) Narrator: Raised as a Baptist in a traditional Christian family, Alan Wallace developed an interest in science at an early age. After spending a couple of years in college, he left his studies behind and became a Buddhist monk, immersing himself in Tibetan language and culture. Eventually, he moved back to the United States and resumed his studies, focusing on physics and the philosophy of science. He also continued his practice of Buddhism, determined to achieve his own personal integration of science and spirituality. B. Alan Wallace (Santa Barbara Institute for Consciousness Studies): There's been in this age-old confrontation it's not always a conflict, but it's always been a
confrontation between, let's say, more of a spiritual orientation to reality -- for many people theistic, as opposed to the scientific, which is bottom up. I mean, it's human beings investigating nature using human intelligence, human senses; and the other one seems to be coming in from another angle and that is it's divine. It's down flow. It's from Jesus. It's from God. It's from Allah. It's from the Buddha s enlightenment. It seems to be coming down. Where science is saying if I can refute my teacher, I get a Nobel Prize or at least I'll get tenure; whereas Buddhists are not trying to refute Buddha; Christians are not trying to refute Jesus. So on the one hand, these look like very different orientations. In that confrontation between the spiritual and the scientific or the religious and the scientific, it's often been an uneasy relationship. A lot of people have chosen one or the other. Quite a number of others have chosen parallel tracks that don't intersect. And that's basically why I left western civilization. I just knew I didn't want to choose. I couldn't be simply a religious person and abandon science. I had too much appreciation for science. But I couldn't just abandon science just adopt science and abandon religion because it was too meager a diet. It was not something I could flourish in that would give me a life of meaning and I demand that. I'm looking at life and saying ante up. I demand a life of meaning. I'll give everything I can. I'm not just giving not asking for you to give it to me on a silver plate but I'm demanding of my life -- I want a meaningful one. And I'm not willing to confine my worldview to a paradigm that will deny me that. And science on its own is pretty meager pickings. Alan Wallace (leading meditation): and to round off this initial settling of the body, let s take three, slow, deep breaths breathing through the nostrils. [Excerpt from film The Global Brain ] Peter Russell (narration from film): For the early astronauts, the sight of the planet shining in the blackness of space was a profound experience. One of the astronauts who walked on the moon described his view of the Earth as an experience of instant global consciousness. Narrator: A filmmaker, author & futuristic thinker, Peter Russell also studied physics in college. He switched to experimental psychology when he realized that he was primarily interested in exploring the mind and consciousness itself. Peter Russell (Author, Filmmaker & Futurist): Yes, I think the interesting question for me is: how come there were beings in the universe that could do physics -- that the universe had evolved to the point where beings such as ourselves could sit back and look at the universe and not only experience the universe, which is a remarkable thing anyway -- that we can actually see the world, examine it with our senses and think about it, but then actually ponder it and do the mathematics and work out how the universe works. It was like through us the universe had created a species that was able to reflect back upon the universe and experience it and then go deeper and begin to understand how it works. And I loved the understanding, but even more significant was how is it that it could do this? How is it the universe could actually reflect upon itself and look at itself and understand itself? 2
Narrator: Peter Russell is well aware of the historic antagonism that s characterized the relationship between science and spirituality. Peter Russell: What s happened with science and spirituality, science and religion in the last few hundred years is that science has gradually eroded the idea of some god out there causing the thunder, creating fertility, whatever it is. It s gradually pushed back the god that is often there -- the god that explains things. And I think a lot of religions got very upset about this. It feels that science has gone its way and totally got rid of God. And science, conversely, has got very proud of itself. You know, we ve done away with religion; we don t need spirituality. Alan Wallace: In a similar fashion, and frankly I think it's the same mind set -- people who become religious fundamentalists -- they hunker down and they say Look, all the knowledge I really need to know and all the real basic answers are all to be found in this book and you give your own label this book. And if I just hold on to that one and read it as literally as I can, I'm safe. I m taken care of and the world makes sense. Now, this may fly in the face of science and fly in the face of common sense and fly in the face of experience, but nevertheless I've got a handle on reality and that gives me some comfort some place I know where I am in the universe and I know how to navigate. And so people will buy in to places and then hunker down almost as if they re in a bunker and they're hunkering down, putting the concrete slabs above them and hunkering down. I know what's going on and I'm going in a defensive mode. Peter Russell: What they don t see, what neither side, I think, really sees, which is a shame, is that what spirituality is really about is the exploration not of the material world or the origins of the material world, but the exploration of consciousness -- and how forms arise in consciousness, how we get trapped in our stories, our worries, how that leads us to suffering, and how the solution of a lot of our problems lies inside us, whether we talk about us letting go, surrender, forgiveness -- these sorts of things, I think, have a deep, deep value for all of us. And science in rejecting spirituality has pushed that away and is not valuing the spiritual side. And equally, religion getting all upset that its notion of God has been banished by science and trying to fight back is not actually seeing the real value of its traditions, which are about waking people up from this sort of dream we re in -- about liberating human consciousness. Narrator: Waking people from a dream is also an image used by the philosopher Jacob Needleman. In his book called A Sense of the Cosmos published in 1975, he focused on the intersection of science & spirituality, presenting the notion that we were between two dreams. Jacob Needleman (Professor of Philosophy, San Francisco State University): Science was presenting us with data, information, picture of the universe, which scientific philosophy, scientism, couldn't deal with. The scientific categories couldn't contain it. This is science, in other words, was giving us putting it exaggerated a little was giving us a new revelation without being able to appreciate it. They were giving us a new sense of the sacred a new sense of the cosmos. Then at that point, in the 1970s, I was 3
deeply interested in all these things, and there was a danger that they were going to go into another dream -- a religious dream, a new kind of dream, a kind of new-agey type dream, a kind of fantasy that I thought was also although the New Age phenomenon was rooted in extraordinarily interesting things going along with Eastern religious teachings and the rediscovery of the mystical tradition in Christianity and Judaism, and of course the Asian teachings coming in. But that, too, was beginning at that point, it was beginning to get exaggerated. You think everything's the Age of Aquarius, the New Age and I said, no, no, no, that's not let's not wake up from the dream and go into another fantasy. And that's what the between two dreams was. My question was -- can we wake up from our dream and stay in the darkness enough to realize that when you know you don't know, when you're really in the darkness, you're much more sensitive to reality, then the light if you can wait, the real light can appear, whatever that may be. So I was afraid at that time it wouldn't be the same book now. But I was afraid at that time, some people, particularly the younger generation and what they were influencing, was going from one fantasy of scientism to another fantasy -- a new ageism in a way or religionism, mysticism in the negative sense of the term. Narrator: Another concept that became popular at about that point in time was cosmic consciousness. Like the term New Age, cosmic consciousness has been used in ways that have made it the object of sarcasm and ridicule. Peter Russell: Yeah, I don t like the term cosmic consciousness well, it s used in two ways -- either, you know, the consciousness of the cosmos. I don t think there s a consciousness of the cosmos; I think consciousness is embedded throughout the cosmos. It is in everything. And then one talks about cosmic consciousness as a higher state of consciousness. More and more, I don t even like to think of a higher state of consciousness. I prefer to think about it as just in terms of what I call natural mind the natural state of consciousness before it gets caught up in the thinking, the stories, the anxieties, all the stuff we get involved in in life. I think if we take all those away and in fact if you stop the thinking process, and that s what a lot of meditation techniques do is they still the mind, take out the thinking, what you re left with is what s often called the unconditioned mind, the natural mind. And I think a lot of what people talk about as enlightenment is just that experience of the unconditioned mind. Narrator: Enlightenment is a Buddhist concept that has gained more common usage in Western culture as Buddhism itself has spread. The most familiar face of Buddhism in recent years has been the Dalai Lama, who is also quite interested in the convergence of science and spirituality. Since 1987, he has actively participated in the biannual Mind and Life Conference, designed to foster dialogue between Tibetan Buddhists and Western scientists. Tenzin Gyatso (The 14 th Dalai Lama, delivering opening remarks at a Mind & Life Conference): Many troubles come out of ignorance. The only antidote to ignorance is knowledge. Knowledge means clear understanding about reality. So that must come through investigation and experiment. My participation here I have nothing to offer just to listen; to learn myself from these great, experienced scientists. So I m always 4
eager to see although the language problem is there and also my memory problem is also there. Sometimes, at the session it seems I learned but after the session, there s nothing left there. So that s a problem. But anyway (translator interprets next line) anyway, it may leave some imprints in my brain. So that s all. Thank you. Narrator: Alan Wallace serves as one of the interpreters for the Dalai Lama and participates in these events. Alan Wallace: I think where we can come together across cultures and across disciplines is coming back to experience. And it's not only the third-person experience of a scientist, but it's also the first-person experience, frankly, without which we wouldn't even know that there is such a thing as mind or spirit or consciousness. You don't pick it up from the third-person methodologies. You have to rely on first person. So there we go. So coming back to experience first-person third-person experience -- there's common ground. And secondly, the whole issue of clear thinking or reason. Having been trained in Buddhist logic and studied physics and mathematics and studied western philosophy, I'd say clear, rational thought crops up in Buddhism; it crops up in Aristotelian logic; in modern logic. Clear thinking is clear thinking. It's a universal language. And so if we come back to those two points -- let's talk about experience and let's talk about it rationally -- you're cutting through all the barriers and divisions. And that's a point where science and spirituality, East and West, ancient and modern can really come together. Narrator: As scientists continue to unveil new views of the universe through ongoing explorations made possible by new technology, prevailing views of religion and spirituality may be called into question. Sister Joan Chittister is among those who recognize the challenge of adapting to new scientific discoveries Joan Chittister (Benedictine Sisters of Erie): I don t pretend to know any answers in quantum physics, but I know quantum physics is a huge question and it will affect even our notion of God. We used to think, for instance, that matter and spirit were two different things. Then the physicists came along and they said, Oh. Sorry about that. You see, the atoms that make up this air are the very same atoms that make up this board. The only difference is that these atoms are gathered in a denser way. Well, now what I do with the theological problem of the separation of matter and spirit if they re really the same thing? You can t move out of one realm into the other in a separate way anymore. These are the questions. We have to be open to the answers. That s the holiness required of our time. Peter Russell: What is coming, I think, is a synthesis of science with the core idea that underlies all spiritual traditions, not just the Judeo-Christian tradition or Islam, but Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Shamanism. There s a deep underlying core truth, and I see that can be integrated with science without any conflict whatsoever. And it s like expanding the umbrella of science from just an understanding of the material world to an understanding of the psyche and how the psyche works, and then we ll have a larger 5
umbrella, which includes both. And I think that s where we re going where we have to go eventually. Alan Wallace: And so what we may be experiencing is an unprecedented union of wisdom coming from a deeper dimension. You can call it a higher dimension, a more basic dimension, but coming from beyond the scope of science and a meeting of worlds, an integration of worlds ancient and modern -- we're seeing East and West are coming together like they never have before science and spirituality. And without either dominating the other or biasing the other, the possibility seems to be taking place right now, and perhaps it's catalyzed too by the urgency of the problems we're facing on a global level. And anybody who sees the urgency -- the depth of the problems, I think it arouses us to be open be open. Now is not the time to think that any of us have all the right answers. And with that openness and stemming from compassion -- we need to alleviate the suffering of the world. Who can help? Can you Buddhists help? Can you Christians help? Can you Muslims help? Can you scientists help? We need help here and we need to work together. I think that may be one of the elements of this unprecedented era of human history coming together, for which there's great danger and great promise. Peter Russell: But I see that s what we re moving towards and I think. It s been building for centuries, but it s coming to a head right now at this time in history. I think for several reasons. One, we re beginning to realize we cannot go on the way we ve been going. We re destroying the world. And if we keep on like this, we will have destroyed it or made it pretty uninhabitable for human beings in another 20, 30, 50 years time. So it s incredible pressure on us to change. Jacob Needleman: I don t know. I mean, the world has always been a mess. That's for sure. But I think it's more critical now than ever. People have always felt that, too. If you go back to ancient Egypt, they re talking about the terrible things that children don't listen to their parents, all these kinds of things it's always been. St. Augustine, everything Rome god, Rome was a mess and Rome fell and all that. But this -- with the planetary destruction of the environment and the weaponry and the manipulation of the organism of the scientific technologies, I think we are -- there's got to be some introduction of real moral men and women into the society. Got to be. Alan Wallace: If we come back as William James proposed and I think frankly nowadays the Dalai Lama s proposing and here's my little voice to pitch in with the great ones, and that is -- if we come back to experience -- spiritually, religiously, hold your beliefs, cherish your beliefs but when you're speaking across disciplines and throughout cultures, let's not hammer each other with our beliefs, but let's come back to experience and see where is there shared experience. And as I'm finding this at my age and, of course, I've been discovering this over the last 35 years, I just rejoice in the fact that there are more and more extremely bright and very well-educated young people that are recognizing, number one, they don't have to choose either you're this or you're that, but they also don't have to go for door number two -- I'll do these, but I won't let them intersect, because if I told my scientist peers that I was meditating they might think 6
less of me or if I told my spiritual peers that I'm a scientist, they might think less of me, we don't have to go there. We can say I'm an empiricist and I'm rational and I'm going to bring my two visions, my two eyes -- the spiritual and the scientific -- I'm going to bring them together and not only will this not contaminate my religion or my science but, in fact, it's going to give a depth of vision to both that neither has without the other. Now that's a revolution. Narrator: Some believe that we are indeed in the midst of a revolution a revolution of consciousness. Peter Russell describes it as a transformation that can be compared to the Copernican Revolution of the 16 th century. Peter Russell: Well, the original Copernican Revolution was when the universe got turned inside out. Before Copernicus, they thought The Earth was the center of the universe, everything spinning round it. Copernicus came along and said uh uh, it makes a lot more sense, works a lot better if the earth s actually spinning around the sun. I think the shift is a similar shift that we require today, and that is to realize that consciousness isn t created by the brain. The brain certainly affects what happens in consciousness, and that s very clear. And probably everything that happens in consciousness has some sort of effect in the brain or some cause in the brain, but the brain doesn t create consciousness itself. And like the Copernican Revolution, when Copernicus came out with the idea, everybody rejected it, particularly the establishment, which was the Church. Today, the establishment is materialistic science, and so when you suggest something like this, all the materialistic scientists say, Oh, rubbish, stupid, you know, don t be silly, you know, what s the evidence for that? But yet there is absolutely no evidence that the brain creates consciousness itself -- lots of evidence that it modifies consciousness. So that to me is what we re talking about the new Copernican revolution -- this complete shift of thinking about consciousness -- seeing that consciousness is there all along. And what that does, it opens up to a whole new understanding of spirituality. And what I find fascinating is in the West the most recent science is psychology, which is the study of the psyche -- the human mind -- and it is approaching, I think, the same sort of understanding which has been there in the eastern traditions for thousands of years. And I think that synthesis of psychology and the mystical traditions is what holds the greatest hope for humanity. And that I think is what s gonna take us into our next evolutionary phase. Alan Wallace: In the meantime, out of this great array of ways we can be of service -- try to alleviate suffering and conflict to bring about greater human flourishing, each of us has something we can offer, whether it's raising your own child at home or in so many professions that are really contributing and then doing that and doing as well as we can and then we come to a kind of a cliché -- Act locally; Think globally. Well, that's a good cliche because it has a lot of meaning to it. But I think by acting locally and having this broader vision, then we very consciously enter into this whole network of interrelationships and feeling I'm not just working alone here. It's not me versus the world. I'm actually working with a whole network of people all over the world trying in a myriad of ways most of whom I'm unconscious of but so be it. In principle, I know you're there and we're all working together to heal this world. And I think we can 7
imagine Jesus and Buddha and all of the great spiritual beings of the past. Maybe they're actually using us. Maybe we are maybe we are the fingers on their hands -- not that we're being manipulated, but maybe these blessings are coming through. In fact, I do believe that. I think it's not just these little, tiny organisms wandering around on the planet trying to do it all bottom up. I think there's another dimension going on here. And I think there s blessing. That s part of my worldview. Host: Science and technology have made a huge impact on our lives and will most likely continue to do so. Religion and spirituality have also played a major role in shaping our world and the way we view it. Moving forward into the 21 st century and beyond, we might begin to witness the integration of science and spirituality in ways that we can hardly imagine. In fact, it s our imagination that s often led the way for science as well as for spirituality. Imagine what the evolution of consciousness might mean as we continue our journey onward. I m Charles Atkins, Jr. Thanks for joining us. [comments during credit roll] Narrator: The Bible has been called an American book, but not all Americans agree about how to interpret it. Strong feelings emerge when differences arise over such things as the teaching of evolution in public schools. Robert Wuthnow (Princeton University): It s really complicated for a lot of people because when they think about evolution, they do think about it as a substitution for an understanding of creation. Dr. James Forbes, Jr. (Riverside Church, NYC): Creationism about whatever God did however you want to understand it need not be threatened by the notion that there s a continuing action of God. Narrator: Tune in for reflections on evolution and The Bible on the next edition of Beyond Theology. Announcer: Production funding for this program has been provided in part by the Shumaker Family Foundation promoting social and environmental justice, education, spirituality and the arts. Topeka Copyright 2007 8