IRON RANGE RESEARCH CENTER Oral History Interview NAME: Jim Wmdigo #OF TAPES: 1 INTERVIEWER: Jerre Pete DATE: January 15, 1997 PLACE: Tun Wmdigo residence in Fort Francis, Ontario, Canada ACCESSION #: Tape I/Side 1 Interviewer: Do you want to say your name first, and where you were born? Jim Windigo: Where I was born? I: Yeah. JW: In which '/fay... the name, or... I: What ever you want. JW: Oh. Uh, okay.... I just want to tell you that I was born in urn,... year 1925, June 5th. And I've always lived in this area. And surrounding area. Radius about three, four hundred miles, I guess. ~o, what do you want to know?
2 I: Vb, what do you know about uh, what keeps you busy a long time ago, like uh, trapping and working, maybe, in the mines and working in the lumber camps and like that? JW: Yeah. Well, I grew up to be like... I guess, I know my Grandfilther and my Grandmother came from uh, one of the Reserves on the American side, so called American Side, but in those days there was no such thing as American Indians or Canadian Indians, you know, so... Especially if she came from, also my Grandfilther came from uh, what they used to call Amslral. Call that Leech Lake. And that's what, that's where he's all - his relatives came from. Came to live here on this side and be comfortable. And then when they uh, when they worked here, the railroad went by, I guess, and... everybody start cutting, picked blueberries and trap. Mostly trapping here, because I know when they used to have a depression here in ~ so called now, the biggest, the biggest place, you know, to live and grow you know, because everybody else had a hard time. It was very few jobs, but the Indians here, Anishinabe People I call, they were really, really well offbecause the fur business was really and thenjobs were very small money making type. But everybody worked and everybody worked hard. And also, they went back and forth - many of these conununities, even though that they paddlec:l But they sure did a good job of uh, making roads. Like uh, even myse~ after maybe 4 years old - maybe something like that - I can remember traveling down from Nett Lake. They had regular trail. aoad - just like a road, eh. All these lakes and dates and names. I don't know. I don't remember all of them. But anyway, they used to paddle up that way and then some other people would come around... They really, conununication was good. Because they almost, you might say you might exchange their uh, ways oflife you know. That's why they lived real good. They never looked at each other one is better than the other. The balance was there all the time. So that's what I noticed, you know, because uh, many times that we paddled to Nett Lake, some of the area where they had wild rice. And we used to go make rice over. there, you know. No one said anything, you know.
3 Yeah, they really worked together in many ways, eh. So, urn, that's how much I know how they lived, and all the other places as well - like Leech Lake and all these other places. I can't really name them all, but I know that's how the commlmication was so good. And they worked together on their so called "way of life," eh. 'Cause I remember we paddled over there once. I don't know how they got the message, but they got the message somehow. They had to rush.over to Nett Lake, Minnesota. (Unclear) the name they call it. We bad to rush over there for - I don't exactly know what it was - but gee, when, when they worked together, well they would... They weren't the only ones here, on this side. There were other people in different areas from the... Because they used to travel to, together, you know. All these communities, they all bunch up like, you know, and they used to travel to uh, Wenee ga acee they called it. That's Duluth, Minnesota. Because the reason why they traveled is uh, they use4 to go and visit the Creator they called it Nana boo joo. And uh, that's someone they call now today Spirit Mountain. So, anyways, that's how much I know about... I made a trip, I think probably the last trip that he made. I remember my Grandparents wanting to travel over there so ~ so they bad to get together here - get a bunch of younger guys to paddle, you' know, so they wanted to go there because in those days, Spirit Mountain was called Nana boo jo namuk ta vile. And that was where he was, after he created everything like, you know, then they still believed in it. And that's how they used to visit, and they used to - whole OOnch of stufi: Bunch of good food, and they used to have - oh, they had really fimtastic time. I: What was the river you used to paddle down there frorn...? JW: This one here? I: Yeah. Was it Littlefork? Or...
4 JW: Y ~ well, one of them was the Littlefork, but Littlefork stayed off the other way, eh? When they used to go to say, K.a 10 wa shing. But the other one is Sa no say lsi... I don't know what they call that. I: Vermilion? Or was it... JW : Yeah, well they used to come out in Lake Vermilion, and then you come out - there's another river there..... I don't know what that means. So, anyways, Db, I don't know. There was kind of a fork... One goes to the, you know, where you live now. And then they fork out the other way to come out in uh, east side of Nett Lake. And then there was a portage road there somehow. Something like that. So... I: I think the people from Lac La Croix used to come from same river? JW: Yeah. Yeah. They used to come down see (unclear) around that way. I: And uh, there was another route, too, that went to Ely that way. Towards Basswood? JW: Um hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I: And I guess a lot of the people traveled back and forth from Lac la Croix down that way, too. There was the ridges on Burntside Lake and Basswood Lake. JW: Db, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because in those days, you know, they didn't have any problem traveling back and forth. Just like a regular highway. And that's how they communicate each other. And then those messages (unclear) they called, I don't know if uh, they bad, they bad some here in this area, like, you know - we bad these uh,
5 communities (names 6 or so different names...) and I don't remember what they called Lac 10 Croix. They didn't call it (unclear). Came early (unclear) now. I know but there's another name for it. I don't remember that. I know they, some of the people ftomlac La Croix must have talked about that. Cause they didn't call it, they didn't call Lac La Cro~, I mean, what they call it now. (Unclear) they call it now, but that's not what - the regular name was different then. Some of the old people used to talk about it. (Laughs)... you know, there was trail all over the place in this area? As fur as going back to uh, Red Lake - Red Lake, Minnesota. 0 ba shing. Do you recognize... Oh, there's a lot of places. So that's all I remembered. Db, people here it seemed like all in one big fiunily. Course they were all Anishinabe people. They worked together on so many different things. And that's how they know that, that Mesabi Watchu. I think that's uh, 164 you go to uh, Virginia. There's a hill there that they followeq. I: Laurentian Divide? JW: Db, oh I don't know how fur they go. But there now we: stop on that highway just before you get to the outskirts of Virginia there. We usually put tobacco in there... That's where... So, that's how they communicate in those days. Everybody always just like one big family. Which is - was - good, I guess, you know. Because everybody had... But when they were doing, you know, it seems like they don't even know they didn't have no phones. What was good about it, huh? Certain time I think that I remember myself: and I remember my great-grandfather and my grandparents. They were talking about going to (Unclear). Db, there was a bunch of other people in this area you know, when are we gonna go? So then, everybody had their uh, their good way of lire you know. They all worked together. They didn't uh, they never compete each other. TheYre DOt the guy who remember. 'Cause when we got as many times I remember, I don't know which part of the Nett Lake. As long as.we come around that point, you know, there was just
6 like water was coming down. Everybody was coming to meet those people. You know, there wasn't a single person out there that didn't come down. (Laughs) Boy, it'd take a long time there - shaking, hugging everybody. They're really welcome. So, that's all that... there's quite a few things that I remember what they used to do. How they used to ta1k about a lot of: a lot of their spiritual areas then. Why God was there. I should remember that - I can't think of it right now. There was a river from there. Goes all the way down to, well, it used to come out to - you know where you come from Nett Lake there? (The volume on the tape here gets very soft.) Used to come there, but they didn't have the river... goes from there, bunch of small lakes. Went through there. You know that's how I remember all that stuff.... (Still quiet...) Are we ready? All right. It's uh, it's nice to know all these roads where the people used to travel But I think they're still there, as fur ~ I know. Some of the white people when they came down here, I know this route here from Ingreena Lake (unclear) here all the way down to Thunder Bay. That was another route that the people used to come from the American side (unclear). And travel all the way down there to go and visit uh, you know that Mont Me Kay (unclear). That was another big' celebration area, hvlians, here - they used to take a lot of things there. They did a lot of work together. So that was the other one. And they went down to the - I don't know what they called that river. They went down into, you know where that Reserve is there now? What do they call that reserve there? I: Grand Portage? JW: Hmmm? I: Grand Portage?
7 JW: Yeah. Grand Portage. Yeah. And then, somehow, there was another river outside of the big lakes like them. Yeah. They traveled straight across the country then. So, I don't uh, when I heard them tajking about it all the time, why these places are like that. Like today highway, you know, they talk about highways and then you get there. And 'c that's how they know about their travel And that's why there's so much ub, scattered some of the people who are buried, eh? Like over here they've been ub, trying to find out where some of the burial grounds is. The old ones on the American side here now. I noticed two years ago they bad, they had Buddy Kriley there watching over - they were ub, moving the highway, where's it's located. I don't know how they uh... I know he was there for quite a while - try to direct them you know, which side is that thing supposed to go? We know there was burial grounds in there. 'Cause I know down to the next bridge I went with uh, (unclear). Then when they - somebody came and picked me up here and then said "Where are those graves gone?" So I told them that's just the way they talk about it. So we got those people know how, you know. They come around there. Ob, yeah, there's graves gone. Long, long time ago. So they moved the highway, where they were gonna put it. They were gonna put it right on top of this," so they moved it out then. Which is good, I think. Yeah. I think it's a good uh, at least they do that in Minnesota, you know? Here in Canada we're having one hell of a time. It's a iot of good, this... 'Course we don't work together, really, to take care of the old burial grounds, and that's the whole problem. But all that stuff I know what went on, why some of those places they uh, they worked together on it, you know. Because there was no - I don't know when they become recognized as American Indians and Canadian Side, you know. They were all the same type of people. I: All the same.
8 JW: Yeah. They didn't uh, I guess that's why there's uh, there were so many people here in Canada and they had relation to, somehow, some people live in Minnesota. I know they talk about that in uh, I don't know what they call it - Cass Lake, I guess. They call it (unclear). There used to be an Indian Agent or whatever kind of thing or whatever kind of thing that uh, - I remember going over there one time. And this is what they were finding out you know, they uh, some of the people came from there and come to live in Canada. And what they were doing is uh, selling the land. You know, they owned, become owned through their marriages and so on. But I guess a lot of it has been lost and - but I know that is uh... People used to say "How come? How come I got relatives over there?" They were the same kind of people. (Laughs)... why they were, relations were really, even. through uh, (unclear). No, they uh, they used to talk to us I know, when I was growing up. When we went someplace, you know, that's the first thing they'd tell me. "Now remember where do you belong." So you and me had relatives in there closer than the real ones. No, that was really good, you know - 'cause communication was so beautiful in that way and... You know where your brothers and sisters were, even though you may not know them too well. But they were there. But all that stuff that I can remember, they went back and forth you know. All the ceremonies were done in Nett Lake and the other communities around. People used to come together. That's what amazes me a lot oftime, you know. I think about that a lot. Today we have telephones, and then we ~'t communicate everybody that wanted to come to the ceremonies. But, by God, they did in those days. I know they had a big one going to uh, (unclear) one time. And my GrandfiUher said "There... there are people coming from uh, (unclear) they call it. And (unclear). 'Course I don't remember quickly what they called. This is where the small community... But they were all tied into one big conununity. Sure enough, two days time they would arrive. How they know that, but I could never tell you that. But they did communicate with each other so I think that's why good relations were really done good. And, of course, later on Canadian side and American side becomes, becomes
9 uh, becomes law. But for a long time though, even when I was growing up they didn't affect them too much, eh? You know, because they were allowed to go back and forth freely. Yeah. Because I know lots of times, I know they took quite a few things one time at Nett Lake and never bothered anybody. It was just... And then they toki a guy there who was there they were taking these over there... Now... we know them. So that was the idea. But today you can't do that. And that was uh, that was a time that they touch on uh, this kind of treaty they have now. I can't think of it right now, what they call it. But anyways, that was signed between the American and Canadian side. They wanted. to do was - their way of life and spiritual ways, to continue to go back and forth. But uh, the Government of the United States and Canada they agreed to do that. But then later, you know, that's when they become different. Yeah. So they start stepping in like, you know, bringing things across and so on. But I can remembq' for a long time we used to travel on the American side. There was no problem. Then we had camping grounds on the American side. Everybody was welcome there. That was good. I don't know why they changed it. I: Now they say "Are you taking anything over? Are you bringing anything back?' JW: Yeah. Yeah. I know there's uh, not too long ago they offered me a whole bunch of stufiwhen I w~ there. So I thought "Well, I'll bring it back anyway, so..." They had two pair of mukluks, I think, and I don't know what else. You know, that's all made good stuff. So anyways, I told them, I said "I got some stuff that was offered to me." "Well," he said "we gotta see it." There was all women in there that time. Oh... theyre goma tax it, okay. "You gotta pay them." I said "No, I'm not gonna pay them. You guys want them, just keep them." And then one of the girls said, you know, they had a S pound or 10 pound bag ofwild rice. She says "You can tax this (unclear)." Well, mukblks and all, the kind ofstufilndians made; they're all for the Indians. No, no, no, no. I said "What's
10 the difference?" So I started telling her "Why don't you keep the rice." "No, no, no, no. Can't touch that." So they must know something. Some kind of a law that would pass and there, they couldn't do that. But anyways, uh, I left my good mukluks there and I don't know, there was a lot of good stuff: you know? They tried to - some people, they just take. So that's how I know what they're doing. But anyways, as fur as relations here. and there, it was all this back and forth. Back and forth. 'Cause I know people from Manito Rapids (unclear) and not just... any of the reserves, you know. They used to go, they even used to go there in the spring of the year, you know, cause they bad nice, uh, making maple sugar and so on and people used to go there. Well. Open arms. Come on, you know. They didn't tell you "Oh you're Canadian Indian." They didn't tell us that. I: Not like now, huh? JW: No, not like now. (Laughs) Which is a really good operation - I think, anyway. That's why I continue to go there whenever I'm needed to go and do something. Especially Nett Lake and I know some people there from a lo~ - following a kind of relation - but they had my grandfather. My great grandfirther's parents, you know. I may be a little bit different, but still, you know... I always feel that, comfortable with that. I wanted to bring it out a lot of things, and that's why I continue to uh, work with them as much as I can. ~ it's kind of difficult sometimes because of the way of a white man's way. Law and everything and it just makes it, makes it hard. Like the medicine. You should always be working together like, because now it's starting to revive - Anishi1lQbe medicine, you know. From all over. As I understand it, talking to a lot of people about it. We're getting away from all this "western medicine" they call it. It just doesn't work very good any more. So we're getting to learn our own ways. I guess that's why it's so important. Other than that, I don't know what else I can tell you.
11 I: Yeah. What about uh, uh, years ago they used to have a boarding school out on Lake Vermilion. Do you remember about that? JW: Not really, no. All I know about it is I could hardly see, you know they bad that school there. But they did have a school I: Yeah. JW: 'Cause we were different kids. I don't know if it's much different. WeD, the school we had was run by the Catholic priests and nuns and stufflike that. And I guess that was the worst thing that has ever happened to us. But that part I don't know, rd be lying if I say. And I don't want to do that. (Laughs) But they, do have, uh, they bad a school where they started out. I think, you know, that's why we learn from each other - from the way they were treated, you know, when kids were going to school Catho1ic. It's all Catholic run, this (unclear). I don't know. I don't... I never recall any place else supposed to be different than, different people running it. Even now no~ the east side go there quite a bit now, you know. Talk about it's all Catholic run. I: Well there was quite a few kids there from our "Res" that went to Catholic school out in South Dakota and kids that went to... JW: Ohyeah. I:... and none of the stories were any good. You know, it's... JW: But you know something though that au occurs to me that, when there's talk. about the school What's happening... I don't know what's happening over there. Here in
12 Canada, we know - you know, these people know. They're startini to walk away from that there. And then they know what's gonna happen when they, when they let the Anishinabe people become where they were a long time ago. Now they're coming back second time. I know they did it over here. The priest that was asking the same mass, he had a nobon shirt, he had everything I know. Then he bad eagle tim (unclear) and he bada pipe! Well, even some of those people there, you know, they got saying "Hey, herethis is not right!" So one day I was over there talking to some people. Some of the other people there, younger guys. "I want to ask you something. We got this steal (unclear) priest that just come in here. So the next one he has, he says he put some out you know, when he sees that he's got a pipe. Got eagle fan. Got eagle feathers and he's got nobon shirt and all. You think thats... you think that stuff belongs in a church? Tbat's all I want to know." I said. "No way. No way." Okay. Next,time that he's gonna be there, I want you to invite me to come down. We very, very feel strongly that should not be there. So I went that time. (unclear) about that stuff. So after he got done I went up there and talked to him. And so I mentioned that that stuff should not be here. Well, "Well," he said "Why?' "Well," I said "They uh, they don't belong here." ;He said "Why is that?" "Well" I said, "you know, you don't seem to know what's happening here. You see" I said "the way you say these things, " I said "it wasn't done on this island. The very beginning of time. What you put here that was set (unclear) here. That was given to the Anishinabe people. But not. like this" I said. "You can't mix them up. Either you want to believe on this side, you believe on this side." (tape gets real quiet) I mainly went myself. I don't want to see that happen. I think a lot of these guys... see these guys came to me and talked to me about, and what's sure enough I said, I don't. They don't belong to you. I think what you're doing is, you know these people are starting to walk away ftom it. Starting to go their way. They're starting to revive their own medicine, they're starting to revive their way of life. And. it become strong. Just-like, you know, we might even be there where we were at one time, huh? We were such a good people here. Living here in
13 North Am.. I don't know, whatever they called it. So anyways, that was done. So they put away that stuff. You know, I think you know, more you see that, more you speak out. And I think you know that, well, now you be able to understand. But the way they tell people, you know, you know, these are become strong and because they come together anyway, so. We're not talking about... I told that guy "We're not talking about, we're not trying to say different Creator, I only... we believe there's only one Creator. But they give us our way. They give you your way over there" I said. "Now you come to live with us, that's... why don't you do your way, let us do our way. We got our medicine, you got your medicine. You got your laws, we got our own laws and everything like that. We've always had them, but we just don't practice them now. We were given to us a long time ago, we had people look that look after the C01DDl1mity" I says "just like these guys over here - the police and SQme of these (quiet tape) and then there's a guy sitting there. We had that. We always had that. So. Well, it takes a long time to explain that, I said. One thing I know about is my grandfilther, when they used to visit each other - all these communities like, you know, people at La Croix, you know, Nett Lake and all joined together to talk about... They weren't'meeting or anything like that, but they were just talking about how, you know, how they had it. But in Ojibway language they called them a little bit different. They have uh, a petson called mala 00 key and that's a, that was a main function of the law as he knows, you know, some people getting kinda... ~nd of Side One.) Side Two: JW:... she goes around in the community collecting and stuff for some people that go out hunting, you know, they get some and start all over. I guess it was like that, you know, (soft tape) These Indian legends, you know, that's... I try to follow and live that way myself. That's what my grandfather and my great grandfather used to say. All that stuff what was created in that time, it's all that's gonna be here and never going anywhere. And
14 then some day, maybe, we'll be lucky to revive that so that everything what's happening now will eventually go away. Like, we have, today we have some of this pollution and it's so bad, and that's why the weather is so bad. You know I could remember coming from uh, Nee ho som ankind come down to Rainier, sell blueberries. There'd be a thunderstorm coming, keep on paddling you know, 'till it come closer. Would just tum the canoe upside down and sit there 'til it rolled right by. 15, 20 minutes just gone, cleared up again. But that's the way it's supposed to have been done all the time, you know. As long as I can remember that's the way they did it. You never had like what we have now. But the old people talk about this, you know, this is going a different... Things are gonna be bad, they say, because, you know, they're gonna see all kinds of things then up in the air and everythings not gonna be all right any more. Because, you know, they're gonna abuse the, abuse the spirits and whatever that was given to us t~ look after us. So that's why it's like that. Even some of the things that we enjoy today. Used to say "Well, you got to kind of watch it because there's so much stuff gonna be going in there. You know, they all kind ol. stufflike they used to gather you know. Not only blueberries, all kinds of other stuff. And they used to talk about that. Some day, now gonna be lli that. So's gotta watch it. But, in Canada anyways, they, they were so strong. I remember that time when grandfilther was the chief of that reserve. He had, well, he had only one counselor. And they had one hell of a time, you know, they were all trying to get in there. But they said ''No, look after 0JJr own people." And then we had "Children's Aid Society" they called it. People used to come down there and said "Well, this family here - they're not looking after their children. We're gonna take them away, you know." And grandfilther used to come out and shove the boat back out. "You're not allowed to come here with that. " (Laughs) "You're not a federal.." - you know, whatever it was. And the Mountie was coming and said, you know, the Mountie says "You don't understand." He said "We're here, we will look after our own people." So. as far as I can remember, that you know, Sminkanee Band, they never lost one person, been taken away. But I remember some of
15 those communities differently. Quite a few people were taken out. But they all came back, though. That's one good thing about it. So, there must have been some kind of help somewhere. Why they got back here. 1 know my uncle was uh, lived in Sein Rivers there, but as a child he was taken away from there and taken to London, England. That's where he lived. Funny thing about him. When he did come back after awhile, 1 don't know how many years - about 30, 40 years maybe - he never lost his language. Oh, he can talk just as good as... when he got back! A lot of people used to say "Holy man! How did you do this?" "Well, 1 made up my mind when they took me over there. 1 knew I was lost. I didn't know where I was. But I was gonna remember my language. Seemed like somebody was helping me all the time. I pmy that way all the time" he said, "I never want to lose it." People used to laugh at him. I: That's a problem with most, uh, kids when they're taken away. They, they're taken to the white societies and then they forget their language. JW: Yeah. Yeah, that's the worst thing can happen to them. But at least, uh, at least most of them have been returning. Over here, anyway. Most of the people have been gone and have been returning home. Home~ anyway. 'Cause I did a lot of work in Toronto. God, you know, there used to be a lot of people come to me. To revive, you know, somehow tell us what happened. Well, you know, we belong to this place. You know, they were taken away as small, small kids. But they're, uh, starting to come back out of it. Well, anyways, I think all our beliefs and stuff like that that we have, you know, I think that's really... I thoroughly, thoroughly believe it myself. We can totally go back that way. I think we're gonna be... we're not gonna be where we were at one time, but we're gonna be awful close. And I do know for sure, one thing I can tell you about it, what's happening - why the weather's so bad, you know, everything's polluted and stuff like that. I think it's gonna, I think they're gonna return it to us. This is our homeland. If
16... -....,..... we start to do something right we're gonna have that. Then we'll be given a chance to revive it. And that's the most important thing I need from it. I probably won't see it myself. Every time I go someplace and go do something, you know, like - sometimes I set up my drums. Light the pipe, and that's the first thing I say. Pray for everybody. Please help us. We want to know who we are. You know, help us to gain our, to really understand our way of life. What was given to us. So it's, a lot ofit is coming back. So... I think it's a good way to do, you know? You gonna know, you're gonna. know the difference ofub, the way young people have been taught and, you know, a lot of them don't even know who they are. In Canada, anyway, and that's the way it is. But now theyre starting to think "Hey, I want to know who I am." And I think: it's a good idea to have that. And there's so many people who, you know, think they're white people. And on the other hand, I'll tell you something, on the other hand - there's a lot ofwhite people who think theyre Indians. (Laughs) My God, you know, there's a lot of the white's - they want that. Nothing else. God, you know, I travel quite a bit down the east. I do a lot of work for the communities down that way. God, there was a lot of these people. Not, you know one guy was telling me once "That's only women that do:that." No, by God, there's a lot of young guys, you know. I call what the... I call healing circle. You know, invite everybody, everybody wants to come, you know. That's talk about the circle. All these young fellas, you know, they come. They ask, you know "Can I come and join this? I'm not an Indian." "~ell," I said "You call yourself a human being?" "Ob, yeah." I said "You see, when you look at yourself in the mirror," I said "Look at an Indian besides you." I said. "You're gonna have the same reflection. In his eyes theyd sign at you - there's a tiny little thing in there. That's what tells human beings. That's uh.... We could --. learn things together. That's... instead of beating each other." I said "That's not the way." That was... that was done here on this island. Long time ago, that was the way we taught us. There'd be no more bugging each other, $ere'd be no more killing each other, no
.. 17 more talking about each other. It's all gonna be one. One mind. But I guess that's why there's lot of them. Down east, especially. I know one place I conduct healing circle for three days, three and a half days I usually play. First day I walked in there, oh, man, I looked around - there must have been about 10, 15 blond haired people sitting there. Blue eyes. (Laughs) There's all willing now. "What do we do? I don't know, just tell us." And they see one Indian person you know, take... put Ittle tobacco in a pouch. We're playing the drums. God, everybody says "I don't have any tobacco. Somebody must have some." It's really... they're working hard. I think it's good. Good to see that. But it's uh, it's also... a lot of these young people, them Indians you know, they seen the people doing that then. "Why can't I - I'm supposed to be one of them. Trouble with them is they don't even belong there. Look at them. They're just prancing out..." I know one, uh, one s~ group, I don't know what they're called, they're from down east there... I think there's seven, seven of those guy sitting on drums. I think three of those, they're young fellows, white. White guys. They're from that city where they are. All they... they won't miss this for anything. You know, it's funny. I was talking to one of the guys. "I feel so good sitting,'there. It also gives me uh, not to join my friends out there - you know they want to use drugs and so on. You know,.., help me. So I'm not gonna... wherever these drums go," he says "I'm going." He told. He said "That's very, very strong. Must be good stuff in it." The drum they talk about, the way they talk about it,... and also they're getting away, especially down east. They used to use a lot of these plastic drums, huh? But now they take that and they, they put hide on it. It's a little bit closer to traditional, but he's still got a little ways to go. But that's all right. I, you know, don't feel bad about it. At least they're trying. So that's just a lot of: for me anyway, it's - I've been around a long time. It's what I seen. Even what I did myself. I know how it is, that's why I can tell just about everything what's been done wrong. I no wanted to. be like that myself one time. I didn't want to be part of Indian. I didn't want part of the ceremonies, I didn't want nothin' to do
18 with it. So that's the way I thought about it. I even laughed at my own people. But, people used to tell me "You can't change that." But one thing that happened to me, I don't know why I could not, never explain. In my community, (Indian Name? Eyo so man; kanee?) the priests and nuns, you know, they come there uh, oh, every week you know, changing everybody. I said no. No. They couldn't make me do it. I just completely refused. I said "No way!" I don't know what made me do it, even my grandfather told me, he says "Make up your own mind. Just do it." I said "No, I don't want part of it. Something wrong, II I said, "I don't know what it is." So I never did. But the whole community - but... they cheat everybody. They used to tell 'em "Oh, yeah, we'll come and say Mass every Sunday. Never see them after that. So, I mean, that kind... they lied to them. What they... they're not supposed to do that. They did it anyway. \. That's about all I can tell you. About a good life. I: Okay. JW: Thank you for coming. I: Thank you. Endojtape. \.