An Interview with Marilyn Fox at The Historical Society of Missouri St. Louis Research Center, St. Louis, Missouri 4 December 2015 interviewed by Dr. Blanche Touhill transcribed by Valerie Leri and edited by Josephine Sporleder Oral History Program The State Historical Society of Missouri Collection S1207 Women as Change Agents DVD 62 The State Historical Society of Missouri
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PREFACE The interview was taped on a placed on a tripod. There are periodic background sounds but the recording is of generally high quality. The following transcript represents a rendering of the oral history interview. Stylistic alterations have been made as part of a general transcription policy. The interviewee offered clarifications and suggestions, which the following transcript reflects. Any use of brackets [ ] indicates editorial insertions not found on the original audio recordings. Physical gestures, certain vocal inflections such as imitation, and/or pauses are designated by a combination of italics and brackets [ ]. Any use of parentheses ( ) indicates a spoken aside evident from the speaker's intonation, or laughter. Quotation marks [ ] identify speech depicting dialogue, speech patterns, or the initial use of nicknames. Em dashes [ ] are used as a stylistic method to show a meaningful pause or an attempt to capture nuances of dialogue or speech patterns. Words are italicized when emphasized in speech or when indicating a court case title. Particularly animated speech is identified with bold lettering. Underlining [ ]indicates a proper title of a publication. The use of underlining and double question marks in parentheses [ (??)] denotes unintelligible phrases. Although substantial care has been taken to render this transcript as accurately as possible, any remaining errors are the responsibility of the editor, Josephine Sporleder. The State Historical Society of Missouri
My name is Marilyn Fox. It was Marilyn Widman. I m married for 62 years and I have to say, I ve had a very good life. Talk about your childhood: your mother; your father; your siblings; your grandparents; who you played with after school or before you went to kindergarten or something. Did you play just with the girls? Did you play, girls with the boys? Was it unstructured? Just anything you can talk about in your childhood. Well, my childhood was probably very different because my mother and father were immigrants from Eastern Europe so they were very quiet people. I can tell you a little bit about how they got to the United States. Yes. My father and his family he was one of four children they lived in Ukraine and they had a store and they lived above the store but the Kozaks would come on the weekends and attack the house and finally his father said, It s time for us to leave. We shouldn t stay here, and he had relatives in South Africa so he went to South Africa. He left his wife and his children. My father was two years old. He never really knew his father. His father was there for a while and then that flu episode broke out in the world, 1917, I think, and his father died. So my grandmother was left with the children and slowly, one at a time because she had relatives in the States she sent her children one by one on steerage and my father and his sister were the last ones to go. He was 18 and they waited until their mother died. So you can imagine the different kind of experiences they have had. So they got to the United States and their relatives were very willing to help. By that time, his older brother was there and he had gotten a job. So they were all together, all four of them. Then, slowly, one by one, they got married. My father, I think, was 29 when he got married to my mother, who also was an immigrant. Sort of the same thing happened to their family. My grandfather was an Orthodox rabbi and he had relatives in the United States. He came to the United States without his family and it took him seven years to raise enough money to bring his family. By the time he raised enough money, World War I was going on and my mother, her siblings and her mother ended up on the road, kicking out of their house, ended up on the road, starving actually, and she never really talked very much about it but she did tell me one time that those planes were shooting down and we had 4
to jump into the side of the road. So finally, he was able to bring all the children, and I think the oldest ones were already in their teens, and my mother was one of the younger ones. So she went through the 6 th grade, I think no, maybe it was the 7 th grade. She loved to read because she was always reading. Now, was she from the Ukraine too? No, she was from Eastern Europe. And when they came to the United States, did they go to New York or St. Louis or where? Well, they came through Ellis Island. Yes, but were they headed for New York or were they headed for the interior of the country? No, they weren t headed for New York because her father was in Springfield, Illinois. Yes, okay. And that s where they settled. And I have to tell you a story about my grandmother because she was a strong woman. When they were kicked out of their house, when the war ended, she came back to her house and she said, This is my house; leave and then she went to all the neighbors searching for her furniture and she got it back. That was what you d call a strong woman. That s a strong woman. A very strong woman. When my brothers and I were young and we visited our grandparents often in Springfield, she never learned to speak English. Really? Yes. I never really was able to speak to her. I always got kisses and hugs all the time but we never could converse. My grandfather, being an Orthodox rabbi, did speak English and so that was different. So my mother and father were brought up in a different way, not such a good way, not from the parents but from the environment. And my parents 5
were quiet people so they also did not converse very much, because they were immigrants, although they were very they entered and became very much part of the environment but they were still very quiet. So they didn t teach me a lot about their lives. I just happen to remember those few conversations that we had and I m always mad at myself that I didn t ask more questions. But isn t it wonderful that they had the strength to get here? Did they send their children to the public schools? Yes. So your mother and father got educated in this country? No. My mother I think I said 6 th grade, it might have been 7 th or 8 th grade. But when they got here, they went to work? My father was 18, yes. Yes, 18. He could get a job, yes. Well, he went to a yeshiva so that was different from public schools. I think my mother did go to public school but they started her in kindergarten. She was 12 when she got there because she couldn t speak English. Oh, so she went to kindergarten? She started in kindergarten. But she moved up fast? She moved up and, as I said before, she loved to read. And I bet her mother used her to translate. That, I don t remember. But, I mean, she could go to the grocery store and she could go around? I don t think she did that. I think that her children did that for her or her husband. 6
How did they get to St. Louis or are you the one that came to St. Louis? No, my father s the one. He ended up with a job here. And did they have a hard time adjusting to this country? You know, I don t think so and the reason being that they already had relatives here. My father had two sisters and a brother. My mother had other relatives. I don t know that they were in Springfield but I have a feeling that there were a lot of other people that also had a similar experience. She did graduate from the 8 th grade and then she didn t go back to school. No, she went to work or something? Yes. Or stayed home and took care of the house? Yeah. But they loved the United States and I had education in public schools in University City. Oh, which were wonderful schools. Yes Delmar Harbor and then Ward Junior High, which closed in the 9 th grade and so we ended up spending the last semester at Hanley Junior High and went to University City High School. But Hanley Junior got knocked down eventually too. Yes, it did. And there s the housing development there. Yes, uh-huh. That was sad. It was sad but those houses are nice. Yeah, uh-huh, and we had a wonderful time at school. It was a fabulous school, fabulous teachers. Did your family encourage you to go to school? You mean, regular school? 7
Your mother and father yeah. Oh, there s wasn t a question about that. And did they want you to get good grades? They didn t really talk too much about that but I did. But they wanted you to go and to be educated? Mm-hmm, and it was the neighborhood. We lived in U City on Leland Avenue and all the kids gathered on the parkways and played or walked to other friends houses. People knew each other. It was a very friendly place. Plus, Delmar had all kinds of stores, ice cream stores, a place you could buy shoes, the movies. And you could get the streetcar there? Yeah, you could ride the streetcar and you could ride your bike. Wasn t it The Loop or something right there at the entrance of? And the first grocery store, it was called Genberg s. Oh, sure. That I knew of anyway, in our neighborhood was a large grocery store because the only place that I ever really knew before that was, there was a kosher butcher shop and there was a little store next to it, like a small store that had vegetables and fruit and so forth like that. It was pretty close, I think. And the temple was right there? Yeah, we went to the [inaudible 11:55] synagogue. Is that the one that s right near the gates? It was [inaudible 11:59] which is out in county. Now, yeah. And right behind it was [inaudible 12:06]. Oh, yes. 8
One was conservative and the other Was more reformed. Yes, it was reformed, yeah. But it was a very friendly neighborhood. It was a great place to grow up and I have friends there that I ve had since kindergarten. That you re still in contact with? Oh, yeah, we re still friends, yes. Was there a teacher that said to you, Marilyn, you should move on and go to college? Well, I think it was just, that was the thing we would do. It was expected? Yeah, I would say so. Washington U is right down the street. And you took the academic courses in order to get into Wash U? Yes, I guess so. Yeah, you took language and It was a long time ago. I know, but there was I liked school. Yeah, I went to the public schools in St. Louis, the high school and they had an academic you know, if you were going to go to college, you had to take two years of Latin or something and you had to take math and you had to take science with a laboratory. There were certain things you had to take. Yeah. But then, I took typing and shorthand too, so I took sort of a mixed curriculum. 9
Well, what happened in my life was, I met my husband when I was still in high school. Was he in the same high school? No, he s five years older. He was at Wash U. Oh, okay. He came from a small town in Southeast Missouri, Desloge, Missouri. It was a farming, mining community and it was an entirely different kind of education but he was accepted to Washington U and we met at, like, a party and we started going out and what happened was, we got engaged. I was 18, we got married when I was 19. So I went to one semester of Washington University. And then you got married? And then we got married and I went to Miss Hickey s School. Oh, yes, secretarial school. Secretarial school. Oh, it had a very good reputation. Yeah. You know, it s still around but it s got a broader curriculum now than it had. And got a job afterwards because we had to both work. Was he still going to Washington U? No, he had graduated. He was five years older. Was he an engineer? Business. major, all right. I had our first child when I was 20 and the last one when I was 30 and so I really wanted to go back to school and I tried doing it at, I think it was 10
Meramec and I took one course because I had five kids. I think I had did I have five then, because I had four, I either had four or five and I just didn t do it. It was a very time-consuming, you know, if you want to be a good mother. I couldn t, personally, take that one and raising all those kids myself. As I look back now you know how you look at pictures with your family and everything I said, how did I ever do that? I have to say, we have great kids. They re really good people. Are they in the business? The three boys are. The two girls live in Israel. Oh, do they? Mm-hmm. And what are they doing in Israel? Well, actually, their life revolves around charities and our oldest daughter has two girls, both of whom have been in a service organization, one in the Army three years, one in the Navy two years and the older one is in her third year of university at Hebrew University and the other one they usually have a year between when they start school. She s actually interested in film so she s been looking at schools in the United States as well as in Israel. But they want to stay in Israel? Yeah, they do. Are they married? Not yet. So, did they go together or did one girl go first and then second? There is three years difference between them so one was in the Army for three years and then they kind of take a year off. They have to study for tests and kind of get back, and the other one, she s been out a year so she has to take, I guess, SATs and stuff. Does Hebrew University have a program in film? I don t know the answer to that. I know she talked about some school that did and I really didn t hear if Hebrew did or not. Do you go over and see them? 11
Well, I did. It s getting a little so they come to visit us. But they re pioneer women. They re building a country, don t you think? Oh, yes, mm-hmm. So, did they go when they were 18? Into the service? No, into Israel? Oh, our daughters, no. They both graduated college. The oldest one went first. I m trying to think of how old she was. Now she s 60 61. Her first trip there was in high school and then I guess that became something that became part of what she thought she might want to do and when she graduated she went to Clark University first and then Michigan and then she decided that she was going to go to Israel. She went there for a while. She came back and got a Master s in public health and went back. She s been there ever since. And the other sister joined her? Well, the other sister was living in New York and she became involved in a synagogue in which she decided that she wanted to go to Israel and so she went to Israel. They both have very full, very active lives in charities and leadership and all things like that. Now, you ve been involved in charities? Yes, I have. Why did you decide to do that? Well, actually, I didn t do much of that when my kids were young but I think that all started when I became involved in the Jewish Federation and the JCC and I wouldn t ever have called myself a leader before but some people develop, mature later Yes, and you did, is what you re saying? Yeah, uh-huh, and so as the time went on and I felt more comfortable and really believed in what I was doing so that, I think, started the kinds 12
of things that I m doing now and then, as my kids grew older and I only had one child left in the house, it was much easier to do. Where did your children go to school, your boys? They went to public school. They started out at Spoede and then they went to West Junior High, and then to High School and they all graduated from there. Then they all went to different universities. But they all wanted to go into business with their father? Not at the beginning, no. I think that happened later on; not the girls, they didn t want to. I don t know, maybe they would have if had gone to business school, I don t know. But they didn t go to business school? Hm-mmm, they didn t. So you got interested in JCC. JCC, the Jewish Community Center and the Jewish Federation. That s probably where I really started developing wanting to be involved. It was much easier to do and learn because I think you do have to learn that. Oh, I think you have to learn it too, and you have to choose non-profits that you believe in their cause. Yes. What other groups do you belong to, charities, just one or two? Well, the Variety to Children s Charity. Oh, that has been a huge success. Was that always a success or did it keep building and building? Well, I don t know about it at the very beginning. I ve been involved for about 20 21 years and it has grown. Yes, that s what I ve It has grown and it is so sophisticated in helping families, their kids and I happened to get involved in that because I was named Woman of the 13
Year back in 93, I guess, and then a new executive director came on that year. Was that Albus? Yeah, Jan. And is she still there? She s still there; yeah, she s still there. But she s been there almost 20 or 25 years. She s been 20. Twenty years, okay. You admire Jan? Yeah, but what happened was, with me personally, was that I had never really been around disabled children. Fortunately, I didn t have that experience in my own family and the first time, when I was Woman of the Year, very difficult times, Jan s first year, and we would go out and meet the families at these affairs and then I d have to go into the restroom and then would say, Where have you been? and I said, you know, it was something that, when you see that and you realize, there are things that could be done. Yes, there are things that can be done, and especially equipment and that s what Variety Club specializes in. Well, they specialize in lots of things. Oh, do they now? Oh, yeah. So they broadened their mission? It s not even Variety Club anymore; it s St. Louis Variety to Children s Charity. They have extended through Jan. She s been a wonderful leader and she has great ideas and everything now, from the kids being in the show this year Oh, yes. You have no idea what it does for children. It is just amazing. 14
You know, that sells out. I get calls, Can I get tickets for what was it this year? I m always out of time at the time, unfortunately. But it was something it doesn t make any difference what they were playing, but at the last minute, people will be frantic, they ll say, Can t you get tickets? and I call over to the theater and they say, No, we re sold out and I think the Friday night performance was the one that I was getting the calls for and I can t tell you how many people stop me that I don t even know and they say, We went to that children with disabilities and they say it s just wonderful. It is and you would be amazed at how many young girls have pretty voices and they [inaudible 26:17] and some that, even they don t have pretty voices, it doesn t matter. No, it doesn t matter but it works. Yeah. And they have the children in wheelchairs who act. Oh, yeah. Well, that s just one phase. They have the Adventure Camp. What is that? The Adventure Camp is, during the summer, three or four weeks, they have a camp, a very well developed camp with nurses, all planned out for activities for the kids, ranging from music to art to I can t even remember all the things to sports. Swimming, I bet, for some children. And climbing the wall and swimming. And it s their opportunity to sort of have a vacation. And to do what everyone does. Yes. And then, now they have these wheelchairs and these wheelchairs, they re electric and they re very heavy so the families, it s very difficult to 15
take that child you can t take them in a car but now you can take them in a car because what happens is that we provide the ramps and the connections to connect the chair into a A platform or something? Yes, into, not a regular car, yes. I ran across somebody who had a business like that, that he had these vans and he could get the person in the wheelchair and But these are the families cars. They re a big car and so they re provided with the ramps and the ability to clamp those wheelchairs down. So now the kids can go places with their families. The families can take them places. I m just telling you a couple things, things that they do. Oh, no, I need to know those things. And then the zoo, they have things at the zoo and then they have bicycles that they put together. People give donations for the bicycles. They put the bicycles together and the kids get to ride bicycles and special bicycles and then they have all kinds of equipment, some that help the kids stand because when they stand, that provides other ways of helping the body and there are many other things. Do you think someday, Marilyn, those will be used for the elderly, that same technological breakthrough that has helped children? I bet that could transfer into helping senior citizens. I don t know if they have that or not. No, no, I don t think they have it now but I m saying, I think once you make a breakthrough in one group, it seems to me it has to be adjusted but I know plenty of people who sort of live in wheelchairs and the fact that they could stand up and let the blood flow throughout the body is wonderful. Well, I don t know if they can do it with all the children. I know that, depending on the kinds of Oh, that s true, ailments that they have. Yes, mm-hmm. 16
And I know the membership of the Variety Club has expanded. They ve raised millions of dollars, haven t they? Oh, yeah. I don t know how much they I remember when Jerry Lewis came. You always have a headliner who comes. We have some very charitable people that are involved. Yes, you do, and I guess they give of their own time for this, these actors. No, I think they have to be paid. Oh, they pay? Yeah, they have to be paid. I ve been to your dinners and it s just a gigantic crowd. It is, yeah. I think it s one of the largest crowds that I can think of. Well, now we have it at the Peabody. Oh. And so the stage there is fabulous in the auditorium and then we have... Do you serve dinner? Oh, yeah, in the different Yes. Well, we need more than one dining room. Yes, I m sure you do. So you give a lot to that but you get a lot out of it? Well, I ve been chairman of the dinners for this is the 20 th year. Wonderful. So I ve learned more, I ll tell you, I have benefitted so much from it. Yes, and then the community has benefitted as well. 17
Oh, yeah. What other charities are you in? I m still in the Missouri History Museum, Missouri Botanical Gardens. How is that? It s fabulous. Do you like the new director, Fran? Fran is fabulous. Yes, she is. She is so well educated; she is so bright. She knows what she s doing and the staff is really excellent. Yes, they are. And so I m just proud to be able to be part of that. Yeah, and you know, I never go to the History Museum that I don t learn something. They always have changing exhibits Yes, they do. and I am a historian so You would really enjoy her. Oh, I do know her. Oh, yeah, and she s straight-forward. Oh, yes. She s a terrific person. But she s a professional. She s definitely a professional. Obviously she knows what she s doing. She does, yeah. 18
Were you there when the uproar occurred? Oh, okay. So you got through that, the board lived through that? Oh, yeah. But that was a hectic time. But I always had great respect and admiration for Bob. For Bob, oh, yes. He worked with us, between the St. Louis campus and we used to have history professors that would go over and research in the Missouri Historical and I do think he changed the Missouri Historical Society from being focused on the VP gowns and Lindbergh memorabilia to reach out to a wider group in St. Louis. He is very well educated. And he s very well educated and he would write. He would go off on leaves of absence to write his next book or whatever it was. He s a very thoughtful man, very thoughtful man. At one time I belonged to the they had, like, a women s group there, not for very long but you would look forward to his lecture there. It was so fabulous and also, he used to get board lectures there at the board meetings and it was so fabulous. You always learned something. Yes, you did. And it was terrific. Well, the Botanical Garden went through a gigantic change too, with Peter Raven stepping back and Peter Weis Jackson coming. Oh, he is a talent. Isn t he wonderful? He s wonderful, he and Diane. He s such a quiet man. When he came into town, I met him. It was a big reception or something and there were 200 people there and I looked at him and I thought, oh, he s such a quiet man, because Peter was so vociferous, you know, and Peter Weis Jackson came in and he was so quiet and then I got to know him and I thought, now there s 19
He has a great sense of humor. Oh, he does, his use of words, the way he can use words to get his thoughts across but I will say, I like Peter Raven too. Oh, yeah. I think the Garden was very fortunate to have them both. Oh, I agree with you. I remember as a child and I don t know whether you came to the Garden as a child my mother always liked to plant flowers so we would traipse off to the Garden. It was really getting very run down, do you remember, in the old days before Peter came? You know, I don t think I The paint was sort of chipping off something, and I was a kid and I d walk in and I d think, oh, I don t know about this place, it seems to me, and Peter Raven came in and he just turned it around. Oh, yeah. He s brilliant. He s a great guy. We re very fortunate to have those two, very fortunate, yeah. And both those organizations, the Missouri Historical and the Garden, always had good boards. Yes. It always had interesting people on the boards. Right, yes. And they both supported their leaders very much. Mm-hmm. I think Peter Raven must have been there 25 or 30 years? Yeah. And how long was Bob Archibald there? He must have been there 20 years or 25. I don t know if it was 25, I think More like 15 or 20? 20
Yeah, I think 20 maybe. I ve sort of forgotten now. Well, I went over to meet Bob Archibald when he first came into town and the Missouri Historical wasn t looking very good at that time and, remember the man that was there before? No, I didn t know him. Well, I looked at Bob and he said, Well, now, someday we ll have something together between the campus and the Missouri Historical and we ll share a faculty member or something, and by golly, he and I thought, where is he going to get the money to do that and then he got into the Zoo Museum district. That was the big thing Archibald did, and, of course, Raven had gotten into the Zoo Museum district earlier. Mm-hmm. I think Raven must have been the first one into Zoo Museum District but I don t know that. I don t know that either. And what other boards were you on? I m on the Webster board. Oh, Webster is an interesting institution. Oh And you love Beth Strobel? I love Beth Strobel. She s a dynamo. She is a dynamo and she s sort of a quiet person. I don t think so. Oh, she s not quiet? I don t know. At board meetings and everything She s very business-like. 21
She has a wonderful sense of humor, yeah, so I admire her and respect her tremendously. I ve been on that board for a long time. I was off for a while but [overhead speaker in room comes on]] probably after So, go on with what you were saying. So, Beth is different from the others under which I was on the board and not that the others weren t good, but she s got her own personality, her own drive, her own and I think she s very successful. She s made lots and lots of friends in the community and I admire her tremendously. Yes. And we just had the 100 th anniversary. Yes, which is marvelous, isn t it? Yeah, isn t that unbelievable? Yes, it s unbelievable. I remember when that university had its first gentleman Yes. who was they changed it from Loretta order, whatever it was, to be Webster University. Loretta Well, it was run by the Loretta nuns. I don t know what the name of it was at that moment. Yes. Well, I remember Sister Jacqueline. Do you remember Sister Jacqueline Yes, I do. when she brought in the theater. Mm-hmm, and how important that theater is. Oh, my gosh and they have such a wonderful arts school. Yeah, they do. 22
You know, theater arts. And their graduates have gone on to be stars. Yes, they have, and we just had the closing was the gala. We had 500 people there. We raised a lot of money and the students performed part of the activity and [inaudible 40:26] were so good, you said, I just know in my heart these kids are going to Broadway. They were terrific. They were really terrific. You know, you just get so excited about that, don t you? Yes. I think what Webster has done, but particularly under Beth I m not saying the previous leaders didn t do it because they all did it to a certain extent, but she s more community-oriented, I think. Very, yeah. You see her out there. I think that s very good. Yes, you see her out and about. Yes. And that takes a lot of time and energy. She has a dedication but I think they were all good people, but it was a small little Catholic school college and it s now really an internationally known university. Yes, it is. And they were so smart to go into that international arena. That was quite a long time ago. Yeah, that was Leisure Dean, wasn t it? Yes, it was. And his friendship with Sverdrup, wasn t that it? He was an ex-general and he got them onto the bases? I think that s how they started and then it just sort of grew. Yeah. It s amazing. Oh, I ll tell you a story. When my husband was ambassador of Belgium Oh, yes. and I was at a luncheon and I was talking to someone and they said that their daughter was going to Webster University in Leiden and I said, Oh, 23
I m a member of the board of Webster University. She brought her daughter over to me. It was very cute. It was very sweet. Well, she ended up, I think, finishing up in England but she really liked it. Tell me about your role as the wife of the ambassador. What was your title? My husband called me something. No, they just called me Mrs. Fox or Marilyn Fox or what, but he called me Ambassadorable. Oh. There was something going on at the embassy. They were filming something or something and I think that the news person must have heard him calling me that or saying something so when he wrote in the French newspaper, he called me Ambassadorable. It was hysterical; it was really funny. Was that a challenge, to go and be the wife of the ambassador? No, it wasn t a challenge. It was fabulous. It was so interesting because I really didn t know there are, I forget how many, 150 people or maybe more in the embassy and they re either women or they re men and their wives and their families and everything so what I wanted to do was to meet all these women. So it took me a little while. I just thought, you know, that should be part of my responsibility, to do that. So you have to do it through the embassy. You can t just call up people and say so I put together I asked them, I said, This is what I want to do, have the tea in the morning, invite them for coffee or tea and something to eat and then just talk and get to know each other. So that s what I did maybe once every month. Were they different women or the same women? It might not have been every month. It might have been every couple months or so. No, it wasn t the same women, and then you would meet them at parties and then you would know them. Anyway, so what I did was invite them and then we kind of sat around in a circle and I said, I d like to find out about you and I d like to tell you about myself, so I wanted them to feel very comfortable, so I started and I told them about Sam and me and our kids and how it was such a privilege to be part of 24
this and then, I thought it was something that really brought together my being part of the whole thing and them getting to know that we re people, that we want to meet you and we hope that your life is good, because, you know, they stay three years. They have to pack up their whole house and move someplace else. I didn t know that and I thought, oh, my gosh, what if I had to do that? It s like taking your whole life apart and putting it back together again. So they have to be very dedicated people. I bet they appreciated the opportunity to meet you as a human being. That s what I was hoping for, yeah. And then when you see them someplace, you go, Oh you would know them. I just want someone to just feel comfortable knowing each other. Now, what would your mother or grandmother have said if they knew you became the wife of the ambassador? I don t know if they would have understood it at all. Well, what if they did understand? Well, my grandmother wouldn t have because she never learned to speak English so we never really communicated, just with hugs and kisses. What about your mother? My mother would have been very excited, yeah. Well, actually, if she had been living and was okay, she would have would have been with you. No, she wouldn t have been with us but she would have visited. We would have made sure that she did. Well, I think the immigrant mother who brought the kids and got her house back and her furniture back, to think that she got to America, she got all her children together in one place and that her granddaughter became the wife of the ambassador. I mean, that s something that s just incredible. That s the United States of America. 25
That s the United States of America. That is the United States of America. Were you involved in charities overseas? They don t have charities in Belgium like they used to. No, I understand, yeah. The government subsidizes a lot of things that we fund through charities. Mm-hmm. You didn t see a whole lot of that. Some of the women did things but, like, something like the United Way, there was no raising any kind of amount of money like they do here or anyplace else in the States. So it s just different. Yeah, it s done by the country more. Is there some award or awards that you re really proud of? Yes. Oh, we talked about that, yeah. What about, did your mother ever say she was proud of you? I think she did, when I graduated high school, just things you did when you re in grade school and so forth. They were very quiet people, really. I mean, they had friends here and they learned that they were able to integrate and everything but they were quiet. They weren t just real gregarious or like that. Did they vote? Yeah, they voted. They loved Roosevelt. Oh, man, that was their man. Well, a lot of people loved Roosevelt, the fact that he could get elected four times says something about him. I know there are people who hated Roosevelt but I know there were a lot of people who really did admire him and gave him credit for a lot of things. Mm-hmm. If you had been born 50 years ahead of time, what would have happened to your life? I could have gotten killed in the Holocaust. 26
Yes, you could have. And judging from the fact that all my grandparents were in Eastern Europe or Ukraine, that could have easily happened. You would have been in the war. Yeah. A lot of their relatives did get in. I remember, as a little girl, my parents used to get things from their relatives and then they would start getting things and they d be talking together and, even as a little girl, I knew something was wrong but I never knew until much later. And they would get these letters and the writing was in Hebrew, I guess, which I couldn t read and then, they never really talked about it to us kids. But you were all shocked when you learned about the death camps? Yeah, oh, my gosh, yeah. And I remember after the war, I worked at one time in the late 50s and 60s in New York at Queens College for the city university of New York and there were faculty who had the tattoo of the number and you d just look at them and think, to go through that experience and to be able to finish your education or maybe they had their education before they lived through the Holocaust and then to make it to the United States and be teaching, that s a great strength of character, to be able to live through that. Then I worked, when I was younger, I worked on the St. Louis City Playgrounds as you know, a playground because I was going to go into teaching and that was a great job to have in the summer and I remember we had parents of some of the children who had the tattoo and I assumed that the Holocaust Museum out at the JCA, isn t that where it is? It s on the campus of the Jewish Federation. Oh, it s on the Jewish It s in that building. I imagine they ve kept the oral histories of some of those people. Oh, they have, yeah, and they actually have programs where they bring students through. 27
Of course, yes, I knew about that. Well, you and Sam have been together how many years? 62. What do you think is the purpose of your life in this country and how you look at America? Well, I look at America as the best country in the world because it has freedom, it cares about people, it tries to help people and I think that I mean, there are ups and downs in every government and everything but the whole environment and the whole way that people try to live, they have the opportunity to do that and I think that we re very fortunate to be living here and that it s part of our lives that we learn how to help other people. Did you carry that message when you were the wife of the ambassador to Belgium? Yes. And how was it greeted? Well, you don t just go around saying it to a group but I think you do it by the way that you live and how you treat other people and give charity where you can there, which we did. Actually, we still do it. Sam is still involved in some of the charities. If you had to say what was the theme of your life I hope the theme of my life was living in happiness and teaching that to my kids and being part of the community and trying to help the people and be kind to other people. I hope that that s what it was. I could say that about my kids. They re really great people and my husband. Yes, but it s the fact that you do believe that when you work in these charitable organizations or these community boards, that kind of service helps to make this area and this world a better place? Yes, I do. Because you wouldn t spend your time doing it unless you did. 28
Oh, yeah, I think it s very, very important to do that because it takes you past yourself. It shows all the important things in the world, that in whatever little way you can do it, you can be helpful and bring happiness and kindness and a better place to live maybe or whatever it is, help do that. I think it s very important. Do your sons engage in this charitable activity? They all do. And your daughters-in-law and grandchildren? Yeah. So you ve taught that lesson to them? Well, I hope; I guess I did. Well, if they re doing it. I think sometimes the best teaching is to do it yourself and then people watch you and then they pick it up themselves. Well, so you re saying you had a very happy life? I have. I mean, we all go through things that aren t so happy but I have no complaints at all except maybe one or two having to do with health. Yeah. Is there some charity that you re going to focus on in the future that you haven t focused on before? Not that I know. I m not saying that I wouldn t. Yes. So you re open? Well, it depends on your age, your health, that kind of thing. Oh, no, I understand. But I m just saying, you re flexible? Yeah. Well, thank you very much for coming. It was a wonderful conversation and I do think your volunteer activities have defined you and defined the community and there aren t that many people, I think, who have given so much to charitable organizational development other than you. Oh, thank you, but I really think there are a lot of wonderful people in St. Louis who work very hard. 29
Yes, but you ve worked practically all your life. Well, all my adult after my kids grew up a little bit, yeah. I ve made so many wonderful friends. It just enhances your life, not only with the things that you do for others but with developing friendships that are sincere, that are deep, that are fun and knowing people who are so good. Yeah. Well, thank you very much and tell Sam I said, hello. I will. 30