SCRC Series: Kannapolis Documentation Project Field Notes: David Christopher Nieman (compiled June 19, 2008) Interviewee: David Christopher Nieman Interviewer: Chad Henderson Morgan Interview Date: Monday, June 16, 2008 Location: Nieman s Residence, Weaverville, NC CM: Okay, um, this is Chad Morgan. Its June is it 16 th? Um, (DN: Yep) 16 th um, I with ah, Professor David Nieman ah, he heads up ah, the Human Performance Laboratory at Appalachian State um, and you re also a member of the Department of Exercise (DN: Health Leisure and Exercise Science) got it. Okay, so first of all thanks so much for agreeing to talk with us um, the first thing we start people off with is just sort of to give us a little background ah, where you re from, what your professional background is and how you came to this post in your life? DN: Well, ah, I m a full professor at Appalachian State University. I ve been teaching there since 1990. I got my doctorate in public health with an emphasis in exercise physiology and nutrition at Loma Linda University in California that was in 1984 and ah, so then I taught at the School of Public Health ah, there for six years and then ah, came to Appalachian State in 1990 and then um, I head up the Human Performance Lab. And my research emphasis since the mid 80 s has been ah, how exercise affects the immune system. And then ah, ah, since ah, 1990 how nutrition can impact that link between exercise and the immune system. CM: Okay, um, and I d like to talk about what the Human Performance Laboratory is ah, what? DN: What it is, it s a place ah, where we can make metabolic measurements that s ah, we measure oxygen consumption during exercise or rest (CM: Uh, huh) and we can tell a person how many calories they re expending in different exercise workloads. We um, have a biochemistry lab where we take blood samples, urine samples, salvia samples and ah, analyze a variety of immune oxidative stress and inflammatory outcome measures. We um, have a body composition??02m 24SEC lab ah,??02m 25-26SEC where we can determine what proportion of a person s weight is body fat compared to none fat, muscle, bone, water. CM: Okay, um, and what you, I, I should say for ah, the interview ah, you teach at Appalachian State which is at Boone (DN: Right) ah, we re at your home in Weaverville, North Carolina (DN: Uh, huh) ah, so you go ah, do you commute? Ah, how long a commute is that? DN: Well, its seventy miles to Boone from, this is my primary home with my wife and kids here (CM: Okay) and then I have a condo at Seven Devils (CM: Okay). So I, I spend about half my time there and half my time here during the school year and then during the summer I m here the whole time.
CM: Gotcha. Okay, um, what s your involvement in the North Carolina Research Campus to the, to this point and you know how does it sort of represent an extension of the work you re, you re already doing? DN: Well, I ve been looking at unique, unique plant molecules ah, there s one called corisitine. Coristine is a plant pigment. It s a, ah, flavanoid. It, it s in the peel of an apple for example or in berries or onions and in the peel of an apple it actually protects the apple from ah, radiation from the sun (CM: Uh, huh). It helps protect the apple from microbial infestation and that molecule um, the Department of Defense ah, began to study it and then went from cell culture to animal and then to human and then and I wrote a grant and got one point one million dollars to look at corisitine in humans. We showed that um, during a simulated war mission, a three day ah, heavy exercise we took a quart of blood out of our subjects for muscle biopsy so to simulate wounds that it reduced upper respiratory tract infections during the two week period afterwards and increased mental vigilance. And so that backed up some of the animal data that had been found we, that was the first human study and then we followed that up with a one point six million dollar study from Coca Cola and corisitine??04m 53SEC looking at corisitine and it s affects on human health in the community (CM: Uh, huh). So I ve been looking at other unique plant molecules betaglucan which comes from oats um, also I ve been looking at um, ah, sugar and it s affects on the immune system during exercise and then ah, we had a study on blueberries and so because of this interplay of ah, plant molecules and exercise and immunity, health, infection ah, Murdock s team heard about all this (CM: Uh, huh) and just this past spring um, came up. Um, it was ah, Lynne Safrit (CM: Uh, huh) and ah, and then Steven Leith who is the UNC research representative to the general administration and so we, I gave them a presentation of our findings and what we were doing and they were um, they said this is exactly what we need at the NCRC. There s nobody down there doing anything with human performance and exercise (CM: Okay) and they want, they, they invited first of all they decided that Murdock had to come up and hear it too. (CM: Uh, huh) So they brought him up in late spring and I, you know once again reviewed ah, the data, showed them the various products and he got very excited (CM: Yeah). Um, I mean he, he made it real plain that what we were doing was, is we had to be at the NCRC that this is what he wants and that we would fill a real need there. So um, right now ah, you know it s, it s we re in the stage of trying to figure out where we ll be on the campus (CM: Uh, huh) ah, in a temporary fashion and, and then ah, it ll lead toward some permanent location. We ll probably move into ah, some temporary situation in the downtown area. Ah, I think (CM: Right) NC State has ah, an area and they re moving out (CM: Uh, huh) in August (CM: Uh, huh) and moving into their building (CM: Right) and so we may ah, take that space or something similar, set up our lab and, and just get going right away. I mean this will happen this summer and um, and then will lead towards getting a permanent location. What I bring to the campus also is I work with several companies (CM: Right) that deal with these plant molecules ah, Coca Cola, ah, Pepsi and Gatorade um, corsitinefarma (CM: Uh, huh) and so the plan is that this campus is gonna be kind of a union between ah, researchers from academic institutions and then corporate sponsors (CM: Right). And so they re happy that I m bringing some corporate sponsors ah, with me.
CM: Yeah, so um, once, once you begin your sort of more active participation in the, ah, North Carolina Research Campus once you open up the office, etc will you be primarily based down there? Um DN: Yeah, um, my, I ll start off ah, I ll still be the director of the Human Performance Lab at ASU and then down there and, and so I ll keep both labs going and go back and forth. Yeah, and then eventually as the lab gets very well set up down there um, I ll spend most of my time down there and the main reason is because um, it ll have more opportunities for collaboration and ah, we can measure just about anything that needs to be measured in the core lab. CM: Right, um, so what, what are some of the sort of specific research opportunities ah, you see being opened up by the North Carolina Research Campus? DN: Well, um, I mean the, this, the number one objective down there is to improve human health and then um, the other objectives are especially to look at components in fruits and vegetables, identify unique ah, food components um, extract them and then study them under varying conditions. What we bring to the table is we ah, believe that exercise stress is a great model to test the effects of plant molecules on immune system. We stress people through heavy exertion. They re immune system gets suppressed. They have oxidative stress, free radicals and inflammation, if a food component can be identified that helps to attenuate those exercise induced changes then that means under physiologic stress this food component maybe of value to both athletes and war fighters. Then the next step is to take that plant molecule and then see if it can help people in the general community who are undergoing mental stress. We know that mental stress leads to immune dysfunction so then ah, that s what we re doing right now with persitine we re, we re involved with a thousand person community trial um, we re identifying people who have various types of stresses and then seeing if it can help lower infection rates and lower disease risk factors in their ah, ah, basically across all age groups and ah, all health subgroups. CM: And you talked about one of the real appeals of ah, the North Carolina Research Campus model is the, ah, potential for ah, partnerships with private industry and also possibly with government (DN: Right). Um, I wondered if you could talk about ah, what are some of the benefits of these sort of partner ah, private public partnerships? DN: Yeah, well first of all ah, you know the core lab um, the cost of the??11m 16SEC is gonna be quite low. It ll be subsidized through the campus so we can write grants ah, to, there is corporate sponsors and give them a lot of bang for their buck (CM: Uh, huh). That is number one as far as why I want to be there is, is that I can compete for grants um, I think very strongly (CM: Uh, huh). Um, it s not just the low of the core lab it s also the fact that for example I m gonna have a meeting um, with the director of the Chapel Hill Nutrition Program that s gonna be on the campus and he s very interested in what we re doing (CM: Is this Steve Zeisel or) yeah, uh, huh (CM: Okay). So we re gonna have a meeting and um, and discuss ah, collaborative research and that would not happen (CM: Right) ah, if he was on his campus and I was on my campus (CM: Right).
And another thing is we have a meeting on July 3 with Pepsi. Pepsi is coming and Gatorade you know Gatorade is under Pepsi (CM: Right). So they re coming, their chief scientists are coming and I ve already been doing research with Gatorade and so we re gonna sit down and talk about how we can broaden our research on that ah, campus. CM: Right um, you talk about um, you know how, how you re doing research with Gatorade ah, sort of research scientist um, I wonder how that works the nuts and bolts of it sort of I mean who takes what part and I mean do, are there ever sort of obstacles about for example intellectual property that might emerge in the process of you know you re research? DN: Well, first of all ah, Murdock s ah, administrative group has made it plain that the IP um, will stay with the companies that we deal with. For example at ASU when I do research with Gatorade um, we sign an agreement where we have academic freedom to publish (CM: Uh, huh) but then they retain IP (CM: IP). All the companies I deal with that s the way it is. I don t care about the IP and the companies do (CM: Sure) so there will be no difference on the campus for these companies. They ll continue to keep their IP. The good thing is they ll just be able to well, let me give you an example. Um, when, when you eat corsitine in a supplement form (CM: Uh, huh) um, in animals um, we know that it, it gets through the small intestine and then goes to various tissues and accumulates over time but nobody knows what happens in humans because you can t you know autopsy them so at the ah, NCRC core lab will be the largest cyclotron in the country which will allow us to have subjects take corsitine with a, ah, that will be labeled with a stable isotope that they eat it and we can actually with the cyclotron visualize where the stable isotope is going and then be able to say in humans um, this unique plant molecule accumulates in the lung tissue (CM: Uh, huh) or whatever. And I don t know of any other place where ah, we could do that. CM: Right and it seems to me a lot of your research is really focused on sort of practical benefits. DN: Yeah, we re trying to identify unique plant compounds that can protect athletes, war fighters and people in the community that have various ah, levels of stress and health issues. And we believe that if you eat a balanced diet of fruits and vegetables and whole grains that most of the nutrients um, and food components you need for health are found in that diet. However, when you go through ah, special periods of stress then research shows that having added ah, food components like coristine or whatever um, can help boy up the immune system during that time of stress. So that s the approach that we re using um, and Murdock see he s very much into whole food you know he (CM: Right) says if you eat ah, a good diet you, you should get everything. But he has taken the corsitine now too, he is convinced that he can lower his risk of infection by using corsitine and he s very excited about this new plant molecule and he, he says he wants to discover many more of them. CM: So, so Murdock sort of sought you out is that the way this sort of courtship process went?
DN: Yeah, well you know ASU ah, you know we were ah, not included in the original (CM: Right) that was invited and you know the, I don t think they really knew about us (CM: Right). So once they found out about us then they went up, listened, said Murdock you need to get up there and listen to these guys so we, we showed them around and gave them our talk and I just got back from California. I went to his headquarters in??16m 16SEC Village (CM: Really) yeah, yeah, we were at his headquarters last week. And um, ah, the purpose of that meeting was to ah, meet some of his people back there to finalize um, decisions regarding where we would be on the campus (CM: Uh, huh) and um, also you know he has a longevity health institute out there (CM: Uh, huh) and he wants to build one on the campus and he wants me to get involved in, in that. CM: Okay, um, and have you been down to Kannapolis much yet or? DN: Yeah, that one visit by the ASU team we ah, about a month ago or whatever went through the core lab and (CM: Yeah) um, and then had, had a meal in the restaurant and (CM: Right) and a meeting. We met with all the representatives (CM: Uh, huh) from the you know NC State, Chapel, the directors, Duke (CM: Right) um, and, and they each gave presentations and we all talked about what we re gonna do. CM: And um, what advantages do you see Kannapolis is offering as setting for this kind of um, campus? DN: Well, I mean like the director of Duke came up to me afterwards and um, said you know what you guys are doing is just ah, so exciting and you know this, this is great and this is exactly what Murdock wants and um, and Chapel Hill same way (CM: Uh, huh). We never would have had the opportunity you know a lot of people think App State you know what, what can happen up there at Appalachian State that is worth ah, anything at a high level for research and they, they just weren t aware and now they re aware and now want to collaborate with us. That never would have happened without the NCRC. CM: And how do you, I, how do you see it as being ah, the NCRC as being different or similar to ah, other existing university research parks? DN: Well, um, you know I have friends um, I don t know if you know the Pennington Institute down in Louisiana? (CM: I m sorry, I don t) Um, yeah, the Pennington Institute it s, it s just like this one. It s, it s ah, a rich oil man (CM: Okay) gave a lot of money and they set up this ah, research institute. So um, you know it s very similar to ah, some of these other high level research institutes. The, the good thing is this is in North Carolina (CM: Right) and Murdock over and over has stated that he intends for it to be the best (CM: Right) ah, not just in the United States but the world. He s gonna have the largest??18m 47SEC, the largest cyclotron um, he, he intends to make it number one. And so that is not bad, we re lucky to have this in North Carolina. CM: Right um, and I know you re sort of more focused and on the, on the research (DN: Uh, huh) of it all um, but we re also sort of interested in the political economy of it (DN:
Uh, huh). Um, and do you see ah, and this might be a weird question to ask you since you don t actually live in Kannapolis (DN: Uh, huh) but um, what, what do you think the potential is for the NCRC to sort of transform the city, the state, the region or whatever? Um, can you know can this serve as a sort of um, motor for economic development I guess? DN: Well, let me just give you our example with corsitine (CM: Uh, huh) ah, we ah, Coca Cola is very interested in our research (CM: Right) and are looking at um, the idea of adding you know this isn t set yet but of adding corsitine to many of their drinks (CM: Uh, huh). And um, you know another company is ah, that we re dealing with same thing so the, the net result is, is that our research with corsitine is leading to companies adding it to drinks which we think will improve human health (CM: Uh, huh) and help protect athletes. And um, so to me if the NCRC continues to identify other plant molecules and by the way we have a list um, of the companies I m working with we have a list of several other ones like this (CM: Right) very unique, new, um, that we will explore on that campus and the net result is, is we may end up with a, kind of a new health cocktail drink with these unique flavanoids and compounds that um, it, it won t be ah, hype and quackery driving the drink, it ll actually be hard core science saying this, this has this and this and this which has been shown to do this and this and this. And, and that s what I m interested in is um, helping to provide new health beverages and um, and, and also to for example you know we know people should eat more blueberries. I, I grow blueberries here and we eat a lot of them but a lot of people don t eat blueberries. If we ah, corsitine is in blueberries but if we find some other molecules that we find that are real important to human health it ll just be another reason to give to people hey, here is what blueberries have, here s what it does if you eat a half a cup every other day ah, here are the health benefits. I think then all of a sudden you re gonna get people eating more blueberries. And I think Mr. Murdock that that s his goal (CM: Right) is to get people eating more fruits and vegetables. CM: And of course I mean it s sat right in the middle of the place where a lot of people eat you know sort of high fat, unhealthy??21m 52SEC (DN: Right) um, maybe there will be a??21m 54SEC. DN: Yeah, so you asked about the economy um, I mean with Coca Cola and the companies I m working with if, if this gets out I mean there actually gonna be ah, making a lot of money off of this (CM: Right) and, and then the question is what does it do to the economy in that area? Um, you know like for ASU we have now received ah, two point seven million dollars in grant money (CM: Uh, huh) over the last three monies looking at this molecule and ah, in my last grant the one point six million dollar grant a third of a million went to subjects in the community (CM: Hmm) um, for stipends for serving as subjects in the study (CM: Right). So that was one way a third of a million got pumped into Boone ah, for studying it and ah, so you know that s one way and I m sure ah, that as time goes on more and more corporate sponsors are gonna be having offices and locate you know ah, location on that campus (CM: Sure) um, and, and then I think you know there s more visits (CM: Uh, huh) um, I, I was talking Murdock about one company. He wants the company to bring their manufacturing ah, process onto the campus and (CM:
Uh, huh) I think more and more that ll happen (CM: Yeah) and um, I could just see ah, that we have a lot of companies setting up house on and nearby the campus. CM: So ah, have you spoken with Murdock a lot I mean is your level of? DN: Three, three times oh, we ve probably spent now um, I would guess the total amount of time we ve been together now is about ten hours (CM: Oh, wow and so, so you ve sort of developed this sort of relationship with him) yeah, yeah. CM: And you see ah, I mean we talked to him briefly you know when he came by to NC State to sort of make an announcement or something and you know we did the interview or whatever but you know it was, it was a little intimidating (DN: Uh, huh) um, at first (DN: Uh, huh). Um, in any case um, so I wondered if you would talk a little bit about ah, you have experience in working with ah, sort of private companies (DN: Uh, huh) and sort of developing things together ah, talk about how that process starts up um? DN: Well, um, I mean for me I d done a lot of research um, with marathon runners and the immune system and then Gatorade heard about it (CM: Uh, huh) and invited me to their headquarters (CM: Okay) and then wanted to fund research. So I think a lot of it is that you do good scientific research (CM: Uh, huh) and, and these companies I mean they re always looking for a new angle (CM: Right), something and um, and then that led to you know all, everything else. Then the Department of Defense heard what we were doing and they invited me to their workshops and so really a lot of it is establishing a strong program and then it, it broadens out to corporate sponsors after that but it has to be in an area that the corporate sponsors are interested in (CM: Sure). For me it s all these beverage companies and that sort of thing, Coca Cola, Gatorade um,??25m 05SEC they re all ah, beverage companies. CM: Right um, and you re also talking about how a lot of I guess ah, you, I think the phrase you used was hype and quackery is used to promote (DN: Yeah) existing ah, sort of ah, health beverages (DN: Yeah). Ah, what, what, is that I mean? DN: Well, like Vitamin Water for example (CM: Okay). Um, I mean what we do know is that from the food supply you can get all the nutrients needs for health. You don t need vitamin and mineral supplements (CM: Uh, huh). Alright this ah, drink it leads you to believe that if you drink this you re gonna get all these extra vitamins and minerals and you ve seen the commercials you know (CM: Right) you, you ve got all this extra energy and everything else and that, that s really misleading. CM: Yeah, ah, yeah, so it s funny as I was just driving up here ah, I was listening to an interview with I forget his name but he s the guy who wrote ah, the Omnivores Dilemma (DN: Ah) and he came out with another book ah, (DN: Yeah) and, and I, I guess he was sort of hitting, hitting on a similar topic. DN: Yeah, yeah, there is so much quackery out there (CM: Yeah) and I think this ah, institute ah, will help to at least give information that s in the right direction (CM: Uh,
huh) and help these companies produce beverages and supplements and emphasis on food products that you know is right down the line and, and not misleading. CM: Right, okay um, and finally um, is, are there any other sort of themes you wanted to hit on before we concluded? Any other? DN: Well, um, one thing Lynne Safrit is real big on is there s no other exercise group on the campus (CM: Right) and you know they re gonna have that Health Institute with the workout room but they don t have a group that s actually doing research ah, in exercise and they want that on the campus so they said we fill a real hole on, on the campus. CM: Right, right, um, so alright well um, thank you so much (DN: Yeah) for your time. DN: Of course, Chad. CM: I appreciate it. DN: Yep, I m glad you made it here through all those