COUNTY ASSEMBLY OF NAKURU

COUNTY ASSEMBLY OF NAKURU THE HANSARD Wednesday 13 th February, 2019 Assembly Building The House met at 2.45pm [The Deputy Speaker (Hon. Samuel Tonui) in the Chair]. PRAYER COMMUNICATION FROM THE CHAIR KRA RETURNS The Deputy Speaker (Hon. Samuel Tonui): I have one Communication to make. Honourable Members, you are hereby informed that you are required to file your KRA returns for the year 2018 on or before 30 th June 2019. For further information, liaise with the Human Resource office. PETITION The Deputy Speaker (Hon. Samuel Tonui): Honourable Members, my office is in receipt of one Petition from Edward Engashwa Sabatia of P.O. Box 19135, Nakuru - Kenya (Gillian Sabatia Foundation Hospital, Home and Care Centre). It says; we are in process of establishing a Careatic oriented hospital. Care Centre and Home, the first of its kind in Africa. Financing of construction of homes and care centres under agenda four of the Government of Kenya. It further says they need financing of the care centre under agenda four and wish Nakuru County Assembly to approve the same. So honourable Members this is a Petition by a certain foundation and are requesting to be supported in a way to establish a centre for the old people and the County Government to fund the organisation through the budget. So you can react. Honourable Majority Leader before I come to honourable Ayabei. Hon. Douglas Ayabei: (On a Point of Order) Thank you Mr. Deputy Speaker, how many Majority Leaders do we have here? The Deputy Speaker (Hon. Samuel Tonui): Sorry, former Majority Leader. Hon. Stanley Karanja: He forgot the word former. Thank you Mr. Deputy Speaker. If I am getting these semantics right, this is not a Petition. From the way it has been framed, it should

not have found its way into this House. I think this one is meant for the Executive. We need to find exactly what a Petition is before it finds its way into the House. The Deputy Speaker (Hon. Samuel Tonui): Thank you, honourable Chair for Education. Hon. Douglas Ayabei: Thank you Mr. Deputy Speaker, with all due respect to the former Majority Leader as you put it, honourable Karanja; I think we have seen many Petitions come to this House which you have committed to the Committee of Justice and Legal Affairs and in my view, I do not see any problem with this Petition. It is just a Petition like any other Petition and Mr. Deputy Speaker for your information, anybody in this County can petition the Executive, or this House to any matter. I saw a Petition from honourable Palang as ward, from members of Karuturi. So the Petition is in good light, quite in order and it is only for you to look and I do not want to look like I am directing the Chair but if it is committed to the Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs, the Report will be tabled before this House and from there we can debate it Mr. Deputy Speaker. So it is quite in order. The Deputy Speaker (Hon. Samuel Tonui): Honourable Karanja, Chair for Security. I think he is making a point because if anything comes to the House, maybe the relevant Committee will discuss and say if it is worthy or not. Honourable Mbae. Sorry honourable Daktari Mbae for what happened to you. Hon. Peter Mbae: Thank you Mr. Deputy Speaker, I welcome your words of pole but when you are doing your work of representation, we will do what we must do, for God, for our people, and that is why we are here. And we will later be talking about that in another session. Mr. Deputy Speaker, first of all, I do not think it is in order to keep referring to honourable Karanja as the former Majority. He is an honourable Member for Naivasha East so I think that one between the Deputy Speaker and the Chair from Mariashoni, I think we need to refer to him as an honourable Member. Hon. Douglas Ayabei: Do we have a Chair from Mariashoni? The Deputy Speaker (Hon. Samuel Tonui): Order! Order! Hon. Peter Mbae: Mr. Deputy Speaker protect me from the honourable Member from Mariashoni. What I would request us to observe in this House is, this is a House of rules. My question would be, what does the procedure say about presentation of Petitions? Is this matter supposed to go through our Legal Department to first of all inform us whether it meets the minimum or basic requirements of the threshold for it to be tabled? What I need is direction; at what point is this matter supposed to be given to the Legal Department. They can advise us whether as per all the Standing Orders and all the rules, whether it should be presented. Should it be before it comes to the House or before it goes to the Committee? At what point? And do we have a legal Report to advise us about this. I think we need to be advised so that in future we know the procedure to follow Mr. Deputy Speaker. The Deputy Speaker (Hon. Samuel Tonui): Before I give the Majority Leader, I want to inform honourable Daktari Mbae that before the Petition came to the floor, it had passed through all

those stages. So when you see it here, the legal team knows and have seen it is worthy to be here so it is only you or the relevant Committee to decide. Honourable Majority Leader. The Leader of Majority (Hon. Moses Kamau): Thank you Mr. Deputy Speaker, I rise to echo the sentiments of Mheshimiwa Ayabei and to my understanding as an MCA for Elementaita Ward, this foundation is in order because a person can put a Petition in the House for a request. What I am reading here, what this foundation is requesting there is no conflict, it is just a request to this House for resources. It is up to this House to advice this foundation if there is resources or there is no resources. If there are no resources we advise them, any person in my ward can petition because if he thinks they need something which has not been captured. To my understanding this House can advise the foundation that next week there will be public participation for budgeting where they can appear, if this foundation is appearing in ward x, then they can go there and request for resources and prioritize. I think they are in order and it is correct because they are just requesting for resources and we cannot deny them because we are their representative. Constitutionally we cannot claim that this Petition is in this House wrongly but it in this House legally. Thank you. The Deputy Speaker (Hon. Samuel Tonui): Thank you the Leader of Majority, honorable Rose. Hon. Rose Njoroge: Thank You Honorable Speaker, I stand to say something concerning this Petition, I would like to say that already the Nakuru County has an elderly home for the aged which is not up to good standards, so if it was me who is being consulted I would say we first facilitate ours and put in good condition before we go to empower another person. I think it is an individual thing, thank you. The Deputy Speaker (Hon. Samuel Tonui): Thank you, Honorable Kiere and then I come to Honorable Karanja. Hon. George Machoka: Thank you Honorable Deputy Speaker, I want to bring to the attention of the House that a Petition does not necessarily mean that whatever has been asked is going to be given. In our Standing Orders page 101, and I read the meaning of a petition- for purpose of this part, a Petition means a written prayer to the county Assembly by a member of the public requesting the county Assembly to consider any matter within its authority, including enacting, amending or repealing any legislation. It is upon the Committee on Budget and Appropriation, when this people have brought their Petition, then it is the Budget Committee to guide us, if there is money or if there is no money then we have an answer we able to give to the people. The public have a right to bring any Petition to this Assembly because we are the legislative arm of the county. Thank you. The Deputy Speaker (Hon. Samuel Tonui): Thank You, Honorable Karanja. Hon. Stanley Karanja: Honorable Speaker, we are going round some semantics here, whatever Honorable Machoka has read out, in actual sense it is the prayer but now when you get

this one- a Petition by Gilani Sabatia Foundation, there are so many foundations that are in this country and my bone of contention in this one is that is of an individual or a group. When Honorable Machoka is saying it the Committee on Budget and Appropriation to go and appropriate money to a foundation, I think it is misconception. This is not the fact of the matter, in a Petition you see as an individual that is why as a person in the wards you can petition that one. If this people have failed to take... this one you can take it to the executive and they can fund through may be their headquarter budget or something but as a House I do not see how either through the Committee on Budget and Appropriation can compel any budgetary allocation to a foundation. I do not see unless I am getting my English wrong. The Deputy Speaker (Hon. Samuel Tonui): Let me give the chance to honorable Isaac Wahome. Order Members, Order. Hon. Isaac Wahome: Thank you Honorable Deputy Speaker for your protection, whether this is a Petition or a request or what I think the Honorable Member should not preempt, it should be given to the relevant Committee and wait for the recommendations of the Committee, of course the Committee of Justice and Legal Affairs, so we should wait. In fact this petitioner or this person seeking this Petition is giving the relevant committee some business, so let us wait for the recommendations of the committee and we shall discuss as a House, thank you. The Deputy Speaker (Hon. Samuel Tonui): Honorable Ayabei and then Honorable Machoka Hon. Douglas Ayabei: Thank you Honorable Deputy Speaker, I do not understand the problem with the Honorable Member, Honorable Karanja, I do not know whether he has a problem with this Petition coming to this House or he has a problem with Gillian Sabatia Foundation or what is the problem?. This is because as it is this Petition must have passed through the office of the Clerk to the House Business committee up to the floor of this House, now you want to tell me all this channels were wrong?. Honorable Deputy Speaker I want to say this as the Honorable Member for Kihingo has read, anybody can bring a Petition before this House, whether the Petition is right or wrong, it is not for the Honorable Members to say that. There are channels which are created constitutionally to deal with that, when we say there is no money or this is a private thing or something like that, that is jumping the gun, let (Hon. Karanja stood in his place) The Deputy Speaker (Hon. Samuel Tonui): Order Honorable Karanja, order. Hon. Douglas Ayabei: Honorable Deputy Speaker, when we talk like that we are jumping the gun, why can t we wait for the relevant Committee to say that and then now we can say that the Committee has found out that the recommendations on this Petition is this and this and then we can discuss in this House. But the question of saying it is not in order for this Petition to be brought in this House, to me I think that is not in order and I have no interest for your information honorable members, I have interest in following the law in this House and protecting

anybody in this county to bring a Petition on any matter to be discussed in this House and see whether it merits and that is our work and jurisdiction and core mandate as a legislative arm of the government. To them they are right and they will continue to be right until otherwise proved by some other quarters which I do not know but I think as an honorable member I think they are right for now, thank you. The Deputy Speaker (Hon. Samuel Tonui): Honorable Kiere. Hon. George Machoka: Thank you Honorable Deputy Speaker, may be you have noted we are going through this Petition, I think one, nowhere in this Petition has been indicated that Gilanis Sabatia foundation is a private foundation. Nobody knows unless someone is aware about it. Nowhere in our Public Finance Management Acts states that a private foundation or a public foundations should be or should not be given money? So we want clarity on such issues. Finally when a member in this House stand to give a contribution, we should not have painted ourselves black and yellow that when Honorable Kiere stands we have the suggestions that he is going for this because of this, we just need to be here and do our legislation and do our debate as Honorable Members and allow each one of us time to say whatever he is saying with or without any malice, thank you. The Deputy Speaker (Hon. Samuel Tonui): Thank you Honorable Machoka, the Leader of Majority and then I go to Honorable Peter. The Leader of Majority (Hon. Moses Kamau): Thank you, without defending this Petition, I am standing here because we are a House of legislation, this is a very pertinent issue and that we cannot overrule it because one honorable member is saying it is a private issue. I am requesting the honorable members to The Deputy Speaker (Hon. Samuel Tonui): Order Members, Order. The Leader of Majority (Hon. Moses Kamau): Either this foundation is private or not private, as a House already there is a law on Public Private Partnership. We cannot stand here as honorable members and purport that this foundation is a private one and we deny the resources without giving the relevant Committee time to go and interrogate further the foundation whether they have a module of Public Private Partnership. This is because they are talking about homes for the aged within Nakuru County, every ward in this County has aged people, if it is an idea that can see the light of the day, this foundation could be having a hundred million and they are just lacking only two million? So why are we just preempting ourselves and denying ourselves a chance to know this foundation and their concept? We are not saying we have appropriated funds, we are not debating now to appropriate resources to this foundation, and we need only to give a way for us to understand the concept this foundation has. I need also to be advised if we are not allowed to give foundations resources? Because we normally give Cooperatives, Self-Help Groups, and this a Foundation?

We need to understand under Schedule Four whether we are allowed to give foundations because we are legislators and law makers. We need to understand so that in future we understand how we are going to deal with this issue, thank you. Hon. Erick Gichuki: (On a Point of Information) Honorable Deputy Speaker, I do not know whether it is me who does not know the rules and procedures of this House or have we ever discussed a Petition before?...are we discussing a Petition Honorable Deputy Speaker? The Deputy Speaker (Hon Samuel Tonui): I thought you were saying honorable chairperson Eric, what information you were giving me. Hon Eric Gichuki: are we supposed to discuss a Petition The Deputy Speaker (Hon Samuel Tonui): Yes, we have to ventilate before I commit it to relevant committee. Honorable Peter Hon Peter Macharia: As for me, (Loud consultation) The Deputy Speaker (hon Samuel Tonui): Order honorable members; for the sake of answering honorable Eric, I go to Standing Order number 204 and it reads;- Comment on Petitions; the Speaker may allow comments, observation or clarification in relation to the Petition presented or reported at such a total time shall not exceed 30 minutes. My time is within 30 minutes. It is allowed Hon Eric. Honorable Peter then honorable Wanjohi. Hon Peter Macharia: Thank you very much Mr. Deputy Speaker; as for me I think you are trying to justify the legality of this Petition. As Hon Moses from Elementaita has clearly indicated, it is public private partnership. Now we are supposed to understand whether there is any non-governmental organization or it is based on a group of people coming together for a common agenda. To me I think it is not in order to fund them. It just like telling a member of public maybe to write a Petition on the furnishing of his own house. Thank you. The Deputy Speaker (Hon Samuel Tonui): Honorable Wanjohi Hon Philip Wanjohi: Thank you Mr. Deputy Speaker. Although you said we are supposed to give comments, it appears now we are really discussing whether to go ahead and give Gillian Sabatia Foundation the funding which is there. Having said that, even as we discuss this foundation, we are setting a legacy in this House that in future, that all our wards will bring Petitions here requesting some money and that will be very dangerous, so it is very important that as you rule whichever committee you are going to pick on this one, it is important that we be careful that the legacy that is going to be set by this Petition, does not send a signal to our wards and some of us have foundations also. We could be hiding behind our foundations then we come to the House and we are advising any other person, to come with their foundations seeking funding from this Assembly. So let us be careful on what we are discussing Mr. Deputy Speaker. Hon Stanley Karanja: Mr. Speaker why I am worried as honorable Wanjohi has said, even Hon Eddy Kiragu has a foundation. Most people here have foundations. Imagine when we all come

here and lobby for funding, we will be treading on very dangerous grounds. That is why we said when something comes in terms of finances, like this one which has financial implication, we should be very careful because since I see some members here, we have no malice, what I fear is the trend and this one you will be quoted in what you say. What I see is that now we have created that scene. If any member has a foundation, if you check this, which department will handle this Petition, this one is somebody trying to look for partnership. The Deputy Speaker (Hon Samuel Tonui): Order honorable member, do not go in that direction. I have given you time to comment or ventilate, this one is referred to the Committee on Budget and Appropriation Committee to scrutinize and come up with a report. Order Hon Eric. What is it? Hon Erick Gichuki: You delegated the Petition to the Committee on Budget, how and why The Deputy Speaker (Hon Samuel Tonui): This one is about a request to be funded, nobody can do funding but the Budget Committee. I think I am right. What is it honorable Machembu? Hon Machembu Chege: My point of order is on what Hon Eric has said. It is important that before even we talk of the funding, it is good to interrogate the activities of the foundation. I think the committee on Health should interrogate to find out the activities of the Foundation, because they are providing health care services and aid. They interrogate to establish the activities of the foundation and whether they are functional, or not before even we talk of funding it. Thank you The Deputy Speaker (Hon Samuel Tonui): Thank you for the direction. Hon Douglas Ayabei: Mr. Deputy Speaker, today there is something funny in this House. Are members in order to direct the chair on what he is supposed to do? If we create a scenario where every member will be directing the chair on the position he should take, then we are setting a dangerous precedence. So I want you to be firm and rule as a chair without considering what this honorable members say because everybody will have his own opinion. In fact if you rule in his favor, I will arise and demand you rule in my favor also. I have a position too, let the chair rule. The Deputy Speaker (hon Samuel Tonui): honorable members, I simply said that this Petition when it comes through the Legal and Justice committee, I think they know it. Now for the sake Hon Stanley Karanja: Mr. Deputy Speaker let us have a document that supports this Petition. You know other than a statement The Deputy Speaker (Hon Samuel Tonui): Honorable Karanja Order! What I am saying is that I think there is nothing wrong if we commit this Petition to the relevant committee, which is Budget and Appropriation. There is nothing else. Which direction are we taking; Hon Kiere? Hon George Machoka: Mr. Deputy Speaker just before we commit this Petition to the Budget Committee to see whether there are funds, we want to commit it to Justice and Legal Committee so that it investigates the ownership, the functions and its origin then it is forwarded to any other relevant committee.

Hon Stanley Karanja: As honorable Kiere has said, now we are seeing the light to Damascus Hon Douglas Ayabei: I have been accused of having interest in this Petition. I also think it is in order to be committed to the relevant committee which I think it is Justice and Legal Affairs committee so that these members can be convinced that I have no ulterior motive in this Petition and I do not even know who the owners of this foundation are. It is right to be committed to Justice and Legal Affairs committee to interrogate before it comes here. Thank you. The Deputy Speaker (Hon Samuel Tonui): Now I can see the interest of the members. There is no need to commit the Petition to the Budget and Appropriation committee and when it is later brought to the House you will still reject the report. So it is better to go the way you want, first for interrogation then later on Budget and Appropriation Committee. So on that note, I commit it to Justice and Legal Affairs committee. ADJOURNMENT This House is adjourned until Tuesday next week at 9.30am (The House rose at 3.20pm)