G1. (3 lights covered with cardboard. Three cartons are produced Exhibit M7). (Globes on double adapter is M8 ordinary light with usual fitting fitting was in socket and cts. were rather low down it had a switch.) Also a radio before Court Exh. M9. That is all in the cottage. Photo 45 shows cottage again. Photo 46 shows pillar on stoep of cottage near back of dwelling door leads to kitchen. Photo 47 S/side of dwelling shows the cottage in background. On left side door of workroom is visible. Photo 48 Cottage and one workroom is visible. I questioned Mrs. K. She made a report to me about people living in cottage. ADJOURNMENT At 11.30 a.m.: The bottle M.1 (partly filled) was also inside the cottage, in the food cupboard. M.2 (empty bottle) was also found in same place. Glass M.3 was found with bottles. I think M.4 was found in fridge. M.5 was in food cupboard (Kenna Coffee). M.6 (Nescafe) also found in food cupboard. Jar containing tea Exhibit M.10 also in food cupboard. Also tin of Prima coffee Exhibit M.11 I found a newspaper under the mattress a copy under the Star there was a sketch of a furnace on it. It is similar to sketches found at Travallyn I refer to Exhibit T.7. I spoke to Accused 3 in connection with sketch under mattress a few days after I had found it. He said to me that it was a sketch of a furnace. He said that --- he ---
G2. he had sketched it. W/O Durker was present. He handed over 3 plans to me. I saw that he had taken them out of book lying on dressing table. I studied these plans. Puts in plans: M.12; M.13; M.14. M.12 a part shows Basutoland boundary also beacons: To Gumtree Clocolan sgd. To Ficksburg. To Quarry. Dirt Rd. to Ficksburg. Trees. Frontierpoint road well out of view from Polo field, etc. etc. M.13 similar plan. It shows part of Basutoland boundary. To Gumtree. Turn-off to Pylon. Pylon to To Pikading. Turn-off shown. 3 Pylons shorter direct route more exposed. Good road from farm to river, etc. etc. M.14 similar plan also shows part of boundary. To Senekal - 5½ miles. Annonia. Hill. To Ficksburg 2 miles. Marquard - 11½ miles. Gumtree, etc. etc. Laribe is in Basutoland. --- In ---
G3. In the built-in cupboard I found men s clothing brown overcoat (Exh. M.15). On lapel was a Nelson Mandela badge. It was a similar overcoat, with similar badge worn by Goldreich when I accompanied him to Lilliesleaf farm plus/minus 2 weeks after raid on farm. Overcoat is before Court. Badge was taken off by Durker and will. Brown corduroy trousers (M.16). Brown jacket. (M.17). I can t say anything about these two. Also black material similar to material used to make gowns of priest. Goldreich or Wolpe were not priests. One can see that material has been cut. (Hands in material as Exh. M.18). Also pair of men s shoes one of them with a special high heel. If normal person wears these it will make him appear cripple. Hands in Exh. M.19. Also 2 other pairs of shoes Exh. M.20 and suitcase. I spoke with Mrs. Kriel. I got key to cottage from Mrs. Kriel. She had yale key in the house. Later that evening Mr. K. arrived. I had conversation with him. (Exhibit M.21 is the key only key I saw there that evening. There was no car in garage on afternoon of 5 Sept. On 10 Sept. I went back to cottage. On this occasion I was with D/Sgt. van Zyl and W/O Nel. On this occasion I dug in the rose garden found nothing. I went to compost heap. I saw surface was dug up. It was a reasonable time had to say when. On top of heap I found small pieces of burnt paper. I dug up heap and inside I found bigger pieces of burnt paper. Well-known communistic pamphlets. I went to place on instructions of Adv. Hepple. He is a --- Communist ---
G4. Communist but in a sworn declaration he told me he was a member of C.P. XAC: On 5 Sept. you went on? --- That is so. Did he accompany you? --- He took me there. Then took him back to office. He did not go onto premises. He merely pointed them out. At no time did I take him onto premises. We were not far away when pointed out. I did not see Mrs. K. at that time. I did not know of dog on first occasion. Went back as a result of further information. Dogs were found on 10 th Sept. I did not look at composte heap on first occasion. I may have been near it but I did not see anything abnormal. Some papers were partly burnt. Others completely burnt. It was a normal compost heap. May have been burned pieces of wood. I did not notice anything charred besides papers. I did not take statement from Enry Sabone. Know statement was shortly after we were there. Don t know if it was before we went back. I did not see her statement and do not know what she said. Nobody told me what she said. I cannot recall having seen charred cartons on heap. If I had seen charred cartons I would not have seized them. I was interested in documents. I cannot recollect charred cartons. Can t say when documents were burned. I took charge of documents. I can s say how many Communist pamphlets. Some partly burned. A large amount. --- No ---
G5. No documents which were not partly burned. Some were pamphlets other books. Cannot give idea of how many there. One S.A. Communist I saw then quantity of burned paper. Can make out print after burned. I took possession of remains. Words which were legible I put in cardboard box. The S.A. Communist was partly burned. Only a small portion not burned. Other documents burned and charred. Only book not completely burned was his book. All the rest was ash through which I could see print. (Book and charred remains will be put in). In portions of sentences which were legible words ANC appeared. I could read more than that I can t remember exactly what was on papers. I saw words ANC on charred papers. I saw words on more than one occasion. If documents are here I could assist the Court. Letters should be visible this afternoon. The charred remains were inspected by experts. Durker handed me M.12, M.13 and M. 14. I was in charge on both occasions. I gave instructions as to what was to be done. I gave instructions for fingerprints to be lifted. Were fingerprints lifted from M.12, M.13 and M.14? --- I cannot recall. Fingerprints can be lifted from paper. I cannot expert but paper on maps seem coarse. Possibility of prints does exist. I realised this at time. I can t remember if I specifically referred to those documents, but I gave instructions for prints to be taken from all articles in room which could possibly have prints. I gave to Durker to look for prints. Did you say on what. Only instruction on all articles in rooms. Kriels are charged with harbouring people. If prints on plans would have been damning evidence against them. --- I don t ---
G6. I don t know from whicbh book plans were taken. I don t know title of book. I saw Durker taking papers out of books and handed them over. Plans were folded up when taken out of book. W/O Durker had duty to impound all exhibits. He could have instructed other police to make tests. He would have taken charge of documents on my instructions. I don t remember if he took charge of book. Everything found there (which includes book) should have been examined for prints. I don t know if book was hard cover or paper back. I don t know what book looked like, or what it was like. It was not an exceptionally thick book, can t say if hard or soft cover. Plans looked like escape route out of Republic. It was of gravest importance. W/O Dirker is very experienced and I am prepared to leave investigation to him. Not correct to say I paid no attention. I did not pay attention to the book. I did not say I gave instructions for it to be seized. It was probably seized. I don t know if it was. Investigation was in hands of Dirker. He can tell Court about it. I don t know colour of book. What was found at place was sufficient for me. I would have welcomed if prints had been found there. I am very experienced. I doubt whether rubbing of paper would show on this sort of paper. If fingerprints lifted a mark would have shown. No examination of docs. for prints? --- I don t know. No mark of fingerprint being lifted on this document.
G7. DET. SGT. GROBLER (recalled): I have been through exhibits M.1 has Goldreich s print as well as Wolpe. M.2 shows Goldreich s print (only). M3, Wolpe s print (only). M.4 Wolpe s print (only). M.5, Goldreich. M.6, Wolpe. XAC. Exhibits M.12, 13 and 14. I was not asked to examine those docs. for fingerprints. No sign of documents having been examined by our dept. Use of powder depends on object. For document use mixture which is sprayed on. After a period if object is kept in dark a print appears. Will stay there permanently. Can always tell from doc. whether it has been examined. This has not been examined. I examined other articles as well as these for prints. Items of same kind bottles, tins not many others I know of. I have a schedule of what I have examined. Witness refers to folio. I have not a schedule. Only folios I took off various articles. I examined tea bottle before Court. I refer to Mountain View. I did not examine articles found at Rivonia. I don t know if department examined articles at Rivonia. I was only asked to examine articles at Mountain View. BY COURT: I do not remember having seen plans. Don t remember having seen any books. DET. SGT. VAN NIEKERK: Sgt. in S.A.P. attached to Security Branch at Greys. On 17.9.63 I went to Terrace Road. I made a list of all articles found there in sleeping and sitting room and also bathroom. I made a complete list. Exh. M.22 is the list. Includes tube of colour shampoo Chestnut Brown used for dying. Exhibit M.23. --- Also ---
G8. Also duplex hair cutter Exhibit M.24. Can be used for thinning of hair shaping of hair shaving. I did not find 5 receipts. They were found by W/O Dirker. XAC: Articles M1-M5 wre not there then? --- I noted and listed all articles which were then there when I was there. W/O DIRKER. SWANEPOEL RECALLED: M25 is Mandela badge found on coat. Star of 31 st May, 1963 in middle is drawing of furnace Exhibit M.26. Carton containing burnt paper that is the remains I took charge of. The S.A. Communist is not here. On these charred remains there also appear A.N.C. and Communist wordings. BY YUTAR: Some of documents removed for use in Kriel case. Witness stands down. SGT. VAN NIEKERK (recalled for XAC): I went to Mountain View with Diedricks and Dirker on 5 th as well as 6 th. I went back on 6 th to make inventory. I was with Swanepoel and Dirker on the 5 th. I searched the premises with them. We searched together. Lt. Swanepoel and W/O Dirker found articles. I saw goods. I saw everything handed into Court. More than one person looked. I was with them all time I saw everything they saw. We all looked separately. --- One ---
G9. One room is sittingroom, kitchen etc. Other room is Everything found on 5 th was left behind. I took nothing with. I did not notice if they took anything. We were all in one car. I am not certain if they took anything with. Now that you mention it, Dirker took overcoat, shoes and black material those are articles not on list. Different pieces of clothing. Articles were made up in bundle and did not see inside. I cannot sure if books were there on the 6 th when I went there. There were no books on the 6 th. I don t know if Dirker took books. Books were left behind on 5 th. On the 5 th I saw documents. I don t know when they were found. Mr. D. showed me 3 plans. A newspaper (The Star), something sketched inside. I did not find those. I saw them in possession of Mr. D. I take it that Mr. D. took them with on 5 th. They were not there on the 5 th, so they must have been taken. I made inventory on 6 th. I handed articles to Auckland Park police station for safe custody. I handed them in to Police station. I think woman of house said fridge belonged to her. This I think was only item that she said was hers. All articles should be at Auckland Park police station. Articles examined by fingerprint people were examined on 5 th. Then left there and I took them away next day. Fingerprint expert examined articles at Mountain View on the 5 th. He did not accompany us but was called after we had been there. I think he lifted them on 5 th. I did not see him lift prints from the plans. I did not give plans to fingerprint expert.
G10. EVA HLONGWANE. I know Mr. and Mrs. K. I worked for them. I started work for them in April, 1963. Beginning of April. They then lived at 10, Terrace Road, Mountain View. Kriels had two children. There is a big house where they lived and a cottage. Nobody in cottage when we moved in. Did people come to cottage? --- Yes a man arrived who stayed in cottage. Can you identify person (Accused stand up)? --- It is third man from this side. What is his name? --- Don Williams. How long after you started did he come there? --- He came there in May. For how long did he stay? --- I saw him for last time at beginning of July. Did you go into cottage? --- Yes, I worked there. What did you do? --- I cleaned there once a week on Thursday. During day or only on evening? --- Plus/minus 8.30 9.30 a.m. Was cottage open in morning? --- Only when owner living in it was there. Otherwise I would have to unlock it. Key was on shelve in kitchen. Key is a longish one. Do you know Accused No. 3 did he have any means of transport? --- I have not seen him use transport. I saw him walk. Do you know if No. 3 was home at night? --- He was there some nights not all. In evenings before we stopped work I saw him. Did Accused ever have visitors? --- I have not seen him being visited by people. --- Did ---
G11. Did you ever see anybody else at cottage? --- Sometimes when he went away when he left altogether he left two men and a woman. How long did they come before he left? --- I don t think it was a full week. I can t remember how long. Did they sleep in cottage? --- Yes, they slept there. The two men and a woman? --- Yes. I don t see any of them in Court. Did you ever hear names? --- No, I did not. You have identified No. 3 as person who lived there? --- Yes. Look along line and see if any other accused you know? --- No; he is only one I know. These people do you know what nationality they are? --- One was a Portuguese. Do you know name? --- No. Or what he was called? --- I did not hear him being called. Was he one of the three? --- Yes. Can you see this person in book of photo s? --- No. 3 lived in cottage. Yes. No. 5 is one I thought was Portuguese (Kathrada). Did he wear dark glasses? --- Yes. Like on photo. Did he have moustache? --- Yes. Can you remember colour of hair? --- Reddish hair. Key on Exhibit R26 is similar to one that opened cottage. (Keys were found at Rivonia). Are you aware of fact that police came to that address? --- Yes. As far as you are concerned, on how many occasions did police come? --- On two days. Consecutive days, or period in between? --- On Thursday and again on Friday. --- Did ---
G12. Did you take police to a certain spot on premises? --- Yes place where papers were burned. Which occasion was that? --- On a later occasion when we were at Marshall Square. What do you know about burning of papers in to Thursday and Friday visits by police? --- They were burned in July before police came. What time of day was it? --- In late afternoon. Time to stop work. Had No. 3 left property already? --- He had already left in July. Two men and woman? --- One man and woman had left other man was still there. (Smaller person not Portuguese was still there). What happened that evening? --- Nothing actually happened. When Mr. and Mrs. K. came back from work they went to cottage. Were they normal that night? --- They seemed to be frightened were crying. What happened? --- They had cardboard boxes and burned them outside. Did you see them carrying boxes? --- Yes. They were helping each other. One fetched some, then other fetched some. When did they burn them? --- When weeds are burned. How many boxes carried out? --- I cannot say. We were in kitchen working. Had you seen boxes before? --- Yes, they were in cottage. Did anybody help the Kriels? --- Person who remained behind of three also helped carry. I don t know his name. (or their names). Apart from burning did they do anything else that --- night ---
G13. night? --- They dug and they dug in some papers before burning them. Did Mrs. K. have any relatives in Johannesburg at that time? --- She had brothers and sisters here. I know of one brother and three sisters. I don t know brother s name. Did brother often visit them? --- Not very often just occasionally. Was he there when burning took place? --- He was not there. I pointed out place of burning to police. ZIZI NJIKALANE: Witness is warned as an accomplice. I live in New Brighton Location at Port Elizabeth. Do you know ANC? --- Yes. Were you ever a member? --- Yes. When? --- Since 1952. What was your position in organisation? --- I was a volunteer in 1952. What did you volunteer for? --- In connection with Defence Campaign. Were you arrested during that period? --- Yes. Were you released again? --- Yes. Do you know ANC Youth League? --- Yes. I was associated with that body from 1958. I was President. Was there any connection between ANC Youth League and ANC? --- Yes. What was it? --- The Youth League knew ANC as mother body. What was Youth League formed for? --- The aims of Youth League were to educate the youth to know Politics. I was elected president in 1958. Who were members of Youth League? --- They were --- youngsters ---
G14. youngsters and young men. As President did you attend any meetings? --- Yes. Where? --- At P.E. Outside P.E.? --- Not during 1958. Later, or before? --- I was at meeting in Uitenhage in 1959. In what capacity did you attend? --- As member of ANC Youth League. Any knowledge of conference in Kliptown? --- Yes. I attended that conference in 1955 I was a delegate of zone in which I was staying. At that meeting Freedom Charter was made. Which bodies were represented? --- There are some I remember A.N.C., Congress of Trade Unions (SACTO) Liberal Party, C.O.D. Those are organisations I remember. I know ANC was banned in 1960. What happened to Youth League when ANC banned? --- I was among those who went to meeting to tell them that ANC had been banned and was to be dissolved. What happened to Youth League? --- Youth League was also banished and dissolved. Certain members of ANC were locked up at time of banning? --- Yes. What happened to families of detained persons? --- There was a committee to look after families of people. Was that a new committee? --- It is a committee of place where arrested persons lived. I was not a member. What did committee do in regard to relatives? --- They collected money, made concerts to pay rent for families. What happened to activities of ANC did that also stop? --- No. It was not stopped. Until people released from gaol they carried on activities. They did all acts supposed to be done by ANC. --- For ---
G15. For example? --- Leaflets in which people told to give monies and to stay at home. When detainees released, what happened? --- After released I was called to a meeting at Post Village, New Brighton plus/minus December, 1960. On whose behalf was that meeting called? --- Mr. Govan Mbeki and Raymond Mhlaba. Where was it held? --- At house of Raymond Mhlaba. Do you see him in Court? --- Yes Accused No. 7. Do you know Govan Mbeki? --- Yes Accused No. 4. Where do you know them from? --- New Brighton. In what capacity? --- Mbeki was a photographer when I knew him. Did he have any political affiliations? --- First I did not know. Later, I knew he was on Prov. Com. of ANC. And No. 7 Accused? --- I have known him very long at P.E. Did he have anything to do with politics? --- Before he was banished he was one of volunteers of Defiance Campaign. What do you mean by banished? --- He was informed that he should not attend meetings. You attended meeting at No. 7 s house? --- Yes. What happened there? --- Mbeki told us about new plan. What did he tell you? --- Congress known in its present state and had to change so that officers should not be known. To whom? --- Not to be known to members, police or anybody. How could that be done? --- Officers would not be elected as usual somebody is going to appoint them. Did he tell you anything else about new set-up of ANC? --- He told us that new way of working was laid down by the National Executive of ANC. --- BY COURT ---
G16. BY COURT: Where was Nat. Executive? --- In Johannesburg. A person would contact Nat. Ex. and he again would contact other persons. New offices mentioned. He would report to Regions and other people. What were Regional Sections called? --- Regional Committee. Contact man would tell R.C. about Nat. Executive. Also contact man from R.C. to Branch. We were not told about branches because we were against it. We had heard from people who had been arrested with Mbeti that the plan had been drafted in gaol. We raised objection; said drafted in gaol and not National plan Stapleton spoke against it. I did not agree and said we won t work under new plan. Were you given further information by No. 4? --- No. 4 said we must accept plan work under it try it for period of time. Were you agreeable? --- Most of people were against it. Meeting was closed. Raymond Mhlaba was present. I meant Mhbala when I said No. 4. I was counting from the right, not the left. At that meeting were you told who would be contact man? --- No. But Govan Mbeti said he was from Nat. Con. and he brought this plan from Nat. Con. Any meetings after that? --- Yes April, 1961. Where was that meeting? --- At Korsten, P.E. A man from Nat. Executive came down Nelson Mandela Accused No. 1. Meeting was at Dr. Pather s place. I was at the meeting. Who were present? --- I remember first day was Wednesday. I met Mandela Ntsangane Matie Ntsangani Mhlaba Myself it was a Wednesday. I was introduced to Mandela by Ntsangani. I suggested too few people for meeting. There was no meeting, and assembled again on --- Friday ---
G17. Friday. Same people were there also Govan Mbeki Stapleton Mzubi. What happened at that meeting? --- Mandela addressed meeting. He had come from Johannesburg to find out trouble in ANC I told Mandela that plan should be 7, not 11. That people said they had been told that they would be assaulted if they would not work under new plan. Mandela just took notes did not answer. spoke. He was one who had been sent to threaten people to accept plan. Don t know name of person threatened. He stayed in New Brighton. I cannot remember what other speakers said. We felt that other side should speak. They merely denied threats. Mandela said plan was of Nat. Executive. We should try to work it out. He was against threatenings. People must not fight each other. Stay at home on 29-30-31 May should be success. It was felt that Mandela met wrong people not complainers but acceptors. He said we must search out threatened people. End things. Sense of encourage people to work together. Clear that Mandela did not like threatenings. Mandela said seek out those said to be threatened. Must not be threatened. Must be persuaded. High Command Was High Command proposed name? --- We heard of it from those in gaol. Seven on H.C. We did not know where people were. I know Joseph Jack. He was also at meeting. Did No. 7 or No. 4 speak at that meeting? --- No. After that meeting adjourned, what happened? --- Another meeting at New Brighton May, 1961. Also ANC meeting? --- Yes. At meeting I was invited by George Saribreba. I found people there. Saribula acted as Chairman.
G18. 29.1.64 BENNETT XAC: If you wanted to make contact with region you were contact man for branch? --- Yes. You would see Mgabela in order to make contact? --- I have to explain in this respect. Moosise used to be sent as he was chief secretary of the Region. Often did not see me because he was employed in factory at W.Bank. Mgabela was contact man of Region. I sometimes saw Mgabela to convey message. Masise would bring message to me. I referred to NHC of Witbank. That is how it was explained by Mini. Do you remember HC started in gaol in 1960? --- We were open organisation then. I did not hear of HC. I did not hear of discussion about use of word. New people were in office at W.Bank old members were no longer interested in organisation as such because they were arrested. After banning of ANC you said you were not allowed to know members of other groups? --- Which branch do you refer to? In your branch you had 7 and each had to organise another 6? --- Yes. I am contact of my branch. The only person supposed to be known was I. Others not supposed to be known. If 7 on my branch, then for example just first he would recruit another 6 he would tell me, but would not know other people that had been recruited. I was only person supposed to know new 6. They were not supposed to know others. Region matters would come to me via Masise. He would come from Mgabela. Masise did not attend your meetings? --- How so? He gave message to you? --- If matter to discuss I don t call meeting. I refer it to Masise. If a meeting is on he can come into meeting. If he wants to speak to me and meeting on go at the time he could refer --- to ---
G19. to me at meeting. It did happen that he came to meetings. Only two contact men are supposed to meet. Since Masise came from higher committee he could attend our meetings. He would only attend higher committee if asked. Mdubi said they got letters from higher up never shown to him? --- I was not on Region. I did not go to Regional meetings. So you of own personal knowledge don t know who wrote to Region or where they came from? --- It is necessary for me to say something. BY COURT: I would hear from Masise I never saw letter myself. Nor would you know personally who came from Region? --- If person not from E.L., e.g. a person from National at P.E. he would advise all branches. We would meet at specified place. Somebody would be placed at bus stop to lead people to spot. That is if he knows people. Visitors won t be at place appointed. Just all of us taken there. Then only would visitors be brought. If he went to Region that is their matter. I personally don t know if he did. Did you know of own knowledge who went to R.C.? --- I don t know. I was not told. I was referring to volunteers when I mentioned freedom fighters. This had started in 1952. Organised at time of Defiance Campaign. Used to contravene laws in order to go to gaol. Volunteers continued afterwards to be part of ANC. Organised Congress of People distributed leaflets put up slogans etc. Did all this hard work prior to banning. And after banning also? --- Organisers were people of Committee such as Secretary. But you talked about April 1962 meeting where people were to be sent out to organise freedom fighters? --- Yes. Those are volunteers? --- We were all addressed - --- not ---
G20. not only volunteers. Was that to recruit members? --- Members who would carry on work carry on the work always done to explain politics to distribute leaflets to paint slogans. You said you were definite meeting was April 1962? --- Yes. Why are you definite? --- Besides political matter sporting matters (that is rugby) our commence at end of March what makes me certain is that I met man at Rugby Field on second week after. had begun. (Mgabela left message not interpreted). I am certain about this date. I have worked a long time with ANC since 1951 have been a loyal member. I have attended many meetings 2/3 week when legal saw people who came from P.E. Met people like Makwane and Tshume after banning also saw people from there. Could you have made mistake about who was there in April, 1962? --- No mistake. I said Mbeki and Mini I am certain I am not mistaken. Mbeti arrested in January, 1962? --- Only discharged towards end of May, 1962? --- I might have made mistake with him. I am certain it was at beginning of 1962. It was after his release from gaol. I do not know he was arrested. Why giving evidence against organisation? --- After police taken me into custody, Mgabela told me to talk police told me they wanted to see me. When I got there police asked if I was connected. I denied knowledge. Mgabela was called asked if he knew me. He said I was West Bank contact and must talk. After I had made statement I was told I could go home. I was never in custody (was detained in 1960). I was shown a heap of statements that had been made. --- At ---
G21. At meeting discussion was on organising sending people to countryside teaching people politics? --- Yes. Meeting was in diningroom of a 4-roomed house people even sat on floor because no room on chairs. I heard about acting against Government property from Masise that was not discussed at the meeting. I know from my own knowledge that it was policy of organisation not to spill blood. When you heard from M. that people had been injured that was outside policy? --- They dealt with sabotage side. Outside police of ANC? --- Prior to banning that was case. And after banning? --- I took it for granted policy was always not to spill blood even after banning that was my own knowledge. That is why I know so little about sabotage. Sabotage was not discussed at our branch. Volunteers known as Ariadela that was referred to in 1952. To describe people who were fearless and prepared to go to gaol. I made a statement when shown other statements. These were not read. I was shown statements and told people had spoken. Mgabele was sent for. Were you told what was in statements? --- No. I was told people had spoken about my knowledge, and I was denying knowledge. I was told that in statements there was evidence against me. I realised there was no use denying. Mgabela told me to speak. Who said these statements have evidence against you no use denying it? --- I might be confused. I did not say statements contained evidence just that I was mentioned in them. Who told you that? --- The police Sgt. Card, Sgt. Beckeling and St. Scheepers. Who said it? --- Card mentioned that people had --- spoken ---
G22. spoken and I had been mentioned. He did not say evidence had been given against me. RE-EXD. You were asked what made you speak against organisation and you said Mgabela told you to speak. He is known as Kondoti? --- Yes. What are all your reasons for speaking? --- I am not a traitor. From my knowledge one could refer to as traitors those who were arrested before us. They broke the conditions. They informed police. After we were arrested they would be called and told to tell us to speak and we would speak. Can t see that I am a traitor. SGT. CARD. You spoke about pamphlets you had seen from ANC. I am talking from November 1960 until 23 June 1963. There were last lot distributed at E.L. Some were Anti-Govt. Some were anti-anc. Anti-Govt. was parting of the roads describing ANC break away from Nat. Govt. They were antiapartheid generally. That would be a comprehensive description of what they contained. Anti-Congress objected to persons who supported Bantu Education etc. Most like that one very strong pamphlet Leaders are being accused. People should be done away with one man mentioned was stabbed. Other man was Victor Tonyeni. Pamphlet can be produced. I did not bring pamphlets with because I did not know where I was to give evidence. Threats were made against person. Pamphlets did not call for death. Not put that way in pamphlet. Pamphlet did not call for death People were to be got rid of could be read in two ways. Did pamphlet call for death of anybody? --- No. --- This ---
G23. This particular pamphlet which mentioned names, was printed at E.L. Kondoti and Sparks were responsible. I have recovered duplicating machine and typewriter. Kondoti has been arrested in connection with Matoti s home. Then you came to items 101-102 not clear who was arrested for which all members of ANC. Firstly, persons were outspoken ANC members prior to banning three given actually thereafter I often saw them together in streets two not employed after arrests admitted still members of ANC. 52 Arrested at E.L. First man arrested on 2 January 1962. Last arrest in August 1963. I did not use 90 days for questioning. I merely used it to keep them in custody to prevent interference from outside. First arrests: Actually 2 February 1962. Those two have been committed for trial. I have made mistake. Should be 1963 not 1962. Just First man arrested for 19 Aug. 1962. First two arrested a long time before large groups. All have admitted they are ANC men. I have known from statements that they are members of ANC. Admitted after arrests. Also found them in possession of pamphlets and receipt books. Kondoti: He admitted he was a member also admitted prior to arrest. I often visited him. We had discussions. I often spoke to him. He said we would never stop ANC. I often visited members. Threats were made on my life. I visited all main members. I knew what was going on amongst ANC at E.L. I knew he (Kondoti) was in possession of 2 revolvers. Also Masise. Revolvers were found at home of M s. uncle. I have spoken to K. prior to arrest. Loud-mouthed type. He admitted was in ANC. --- Bongco ---
G24. Bongco: I had lot of dealings with him. He was Vol. in chief. He was in possession of revolvers long before arrest. He promised to give information. He said he had attended meeting. Wanted me to go with. He pretended to be an informer. There was a plot to kill me. Sito: Worked at Schroeders I got him to my office after power station incident. I had long chat. He said he was member of ANC up to 1961, then left. After arrest he admitted he was appointed Vol. in chief. Told me whole story. Mlandu: Only seen him with Masise. I went to see Masise. Found a number of young boys present. Also Mbosi Ralana. Those three I saw at shop of Mark Masise. I suspected them then. After arrest all three made statements that they were members and also confessions. Zola Njo: He never admitted he was a member but admitted he attended gatherings at the M. Studio. I found there an ANC receipt book had on it the sign of eagle also demands from ANC to shopkeepers for money for ANC-sign of eagle is ANC symbol. 51 out of 52 told me they were members of ANC most of them said hey were members of ANC. After arrests following admitted membership: Zola Njo, Fezi, Mose Ralana, Mge, Bernard Ngakane, Shadrack Ndenke. Borgco: Before and after. Pita Before and after. No. 26: Found at Mark Masise s shop only mentioned afterwards. Nsolo: After arrest. Nanja: After arrest. Adjournment No. 5: Old member of ANC. Seen at meetings prior to banning. Saw him in groups under suspicious circumstances. Admitted afterwards. I knew these persons were ANC members. I went to locations found group together. Within a few` --- minutes ---
G25. minutes they dispersed. No. 6: I had seen him at the M. studio on a number of occasions. On one occasion raised a hand and shouted Anandla ANC salute Admitted afterwards. No. 7: Carried bundle. Seemed pamphlets. Ran away. He afterwards admitted pamphlets and member. No. 8: Old member. Only admitted after arrest. Don t know about 10. No. 12: Owner of M. studio. Also saw him on numerous occasions with groups. Admitted after arrest. No. 13: Admitted after arrest. Unknown to me before. No. 16: Present when ANC docs. found at Mag. Court where working also found pamphlets on Cuba and Algeria admitted member. No. 17: Admitted after arrest not known before Maths lecturer. No. 18: Gatherings at house. I kept observation on 3 occasions. Only mentioned after arrest he was member. No. 19: Attended gatherings at 18 s house admitted afterwards. Gathering appeared to be a meeting. On 3 occasions saw them go in and out. I don t know what they did inside. (No. 11 was also there if a group of people go into house together it is meeting). No. 20: Admitted after arrest that member up to 1962. Old member. No. 21: Admitted after not known before. No. 22: Admitted after not known before. Associated with lecturer. No. 24: Admitted after. No. 25: After. No. 26: After. Old member. Knew him before banning. --- No. 28 ---
G26. No. 28: After assisted in recovery of dup. machine. No. 29: After. Nos. 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37: Unknown before. Only admitted after. (Assa is regarded as a wing of ANC formed by Stephen Tshetwe. Regional member of ANC I know from docs. etc. that it is regarded as wing Chairman of ASSA is in East Berlin. I know of only 3 persons who left Fort Hare whose whereabouts are not know. Docs. at Rivonia discuss those 3 persons. I associate that with being a member of ANC. ASA exists throughout S.A. I have very little knowledge of it. From my investigations it as told to me that it was wing of ANC. Dukashe Madolwane: Sterile. All members. All three said it is wing of ANC. Never detained. Also docs. in E.L. and association with Stephen Tshetwe. 38 Old member. Admitted after. 39 After. 41 Wore Mandela Badge. Found docs. in possession. Openly admitted member of ANC. 42 Old member of ANC admitted after. 43 Same as 42. A.G. declined to prosecute 41 because insufficient evidence. 44 Unknown admitted after. 45 Associated with M. studio finding of docs. (?) and from shopkeepers. Admitted attended meetings after made confession. 46 Old member. Admitted 1961 admitted after 47 Only after. 48 Saw at M. studio. Masise s shop. Admitted after 50 Admitted member up to 1962. 51 Old member admitted member. --- Rubber ---
G27. Rubber stamp of Eagle: Known in whole of E. Cape. Not in Tvl. Known in P.E. XAC BERRANGE: In 1961 Strachan was arrested. Other persons were members of ANC. I had no dealing with investigation of that case. I can tell you nothing about it. No re-examination. Subject to recalling on circulars. JOHN TSHINGANE (recalled for XAC) How old are you? --- 40. Have you been taxi driver all your life? --- No. When did you first become T.D.? --- 1959. Is that when you got a licence to be T.D.? --- Yes. Before that I had a car. I went to work in it. Before I got licence I used car as pirate taxi. I had been doing that since plus/minus 1957. Up to 1959 used car to go to work or was that to 1957? --- I used car to go to work in 1957. Got licence in 1959. Used as pirate taxi 1957-1959. What was work? --- I was employed by firm Cadbury (Fry). Made chocolates. I worked for them for 10 years. Before that I worked at G.P.O. as a labourer digging drains. At Cadbury s I worked as a general labourer. Cleaning up. Also at machines, but told that is not my job. I did work on machines. I took orders from foreman. He was a European. In 1952 you joined ANC? --- Yes. Freedom volunteer for Zone 0? --- Yes. Have been told duties of V s to carry on hard work of ANC to paint slogans distribute pamphlets and leaflets? --- I did distribute leaflets but not slogans. Also to tell others about aims of ANC? --- Yes. Also did that from what leaflets told us? --- Yes. --- I ---
G28. I have to sign form for taxi I have always done that. I knew what I was signing. Leaflets and education did you read leaflets? --- Yes. I have read the papers. Do you also read the daily papers? --- I can t read European press. I read Xhosa press. Leaflets were in Xhosa. Some in English. Some in Xhosa. I read those in Xhosa. Did you get instructions in English and did you understand them (at Cadbury)? --- There were those above us who speak English. I can understand English a little. I want an interpreter. I can snatch a word here and there like when you speak. If I say I don t know, do you understand? --- Yes, I do. I was not there do you understand? --- That I do. I can see that box do you understand? --- I do. You gave evidence last week for first time? --- Yes. When was that? --- Friday. What date? --- Can t say what date was. You gave evidence again on Monday? --- Yes. What date was that? --- I don t know what date was. What is date today? --- I did not look to see what date was. Do you know dates? --- I do. I ask because you gave date of occasion when you took Mandela to sea then corrected yourself? --- It was 1961. You first said 1962 and corrected yourself? Also on one occasion you said I am not certain of places? --- Yes, I did say so. What did you mean had you forgotten places? --- You mean Mandela? No you were talking about Joseph Jack you said I am not certain about places. Can you fix me up what did you mean? Had you forgotten what you had to say? --- --- I ---
G29. I had not forgotten what I had to say. Why did you say not certain about places and fix up? --- I was certain about places I was asked about a specific thing and I made that reply. Why? --- I don t know what places you are referring to. What places were you referring to when you said not certain can you tell us? --- Yes. What were the places then? --- About those places that they went to. On the night they were in your car? --- When they got out of my car they walked in a particular direction and I can t say where they went to. But at that stage you had not reached place yet. You gave evidence on Friday came back after weekend and memory marvellously refreshed I am going to deal with 3 instances on which memory was refreshed. You say you drove No. 1 to meeting at Pather s place? --- Yes. No, I will deny you ever took him there although he will admit that he went to that meeting but you did not take him? --- People who spoke said he was Mandela. Do you yourself know he was man in Court? --- He looks like man that hired me to take him. Mbeki hired me. What did he look like man you took there? --- I know man I took there. He shone he had a big beard. I took him to Dr. P. He had a shine and a beard and a moustache. Do you say that man is No. 1 or are you not sure? --- I am certain that it is he. I told you that No. 1 will admit that he went to meeting denies you took him. Says he walked. Puts: You have been told to give false evidence because not known No. 1 would admit presence? --- I say it is he. I want to read evidence you gave on Monday. You said you looked to see, etc. I identified No. 4 and No. 2. --- Then ---
G30. Then: Later, did you have a further... etc.? --- I did not recognise him on Friday because when I saw him he had a big face and was full of beard.? --- I remember that. Why did you not recognise him on Friday? --- I remember that. I now want to read what you said on Friday. You were asked to look at all Accused. Do you know No. 1? --- No, I do not? --- I said so. You then pointed out Nos. 4 and 7? --- Yes. You also said No. 4 told you to fetch Mandela to sea? --- Yes. Did No. 4 tell you full name? --- No he said Mandela. Question then: How did Mandela look then?? --- Yes. Your reply, I can t describe him as I was not accustomed to him? --- I said so. Why did you not say a man with full face etc. when asked to describe why did you say you can t describe him? --- I did not recognise him. Question was how did Mandela look then you said I can t describe him as I was not accustomed to him --- I did say so. Why did you say so? ---- I said so because I was told to fetch Mandela. Why did you say unable to describe him if he was a man with full face and beard? --- When I looked at Accused I looked for person with beard and did not see one. You were asked what he looked like and said you could not tell. But on Monday said he was full of beard etc. why not on Friday? --- I was not certain because he has now removed beard. Are you not certain whether he had beard at sea? --- No he had beard then. Why did you say not certain how he looked? --- I looked for man with beard and did not see one. --- Next ---
G31 Next question was did he have a moustache reply was I cannot say. Next question: Did he have a beard? - reply was I cannot say? --- I remember that. Why did you say that? --- Did I not say on Friday he had a beard? I must have made a mistake I said on Friday he had a beard. BY V.B.: You also said First time I had seen him. Did you know who he was? --- I did. Your reply was I did not? --- On Monday you said he had a full face and big beard? --- Yes. How did you identify him? Did anything speak to you? --- No. I looked and did not see, then I remembered. Remembered what? --- What he looks like when I took him to sea. Does he look like that now? --- No. I have only seen him twice. I took him to sea during day. It was about 1961. It is 2 years 3 if you include 1961. During that time I have driven thousands of people. Now you purport to identify man as No. 1 after 3 year? --- Yes. I was told to fetch Mandela. That is what makes me remember. Are you sure No. 1 is Mandela? --- That is him. Why did you not say so on Friday? --- I made mistake. Who put mistake right during interval? --- I did not recognise him then. BY COURT: When did you recognise him? --- After I left (witness box) I gave matter thought. Then I remembered. Nobody suggested I give matter thought. Why did you say unable to describe man you took to sea? --- Because I did not see a beard and his face looked smaller. You are not answering question. You were asked to describe man taken to sea and you said you could not --- describe ---
G32. describe him. Why? --- No answer. What is your answer? --- My reply is I know Mandela. (Mandela will deny you took him for swim) When was it that you took Mandela for a swim? --- About 4 th month of 1961. You said you saw him on second occasion 3 or 4 months later is that correct? --- Yes. What is 4 th month in 1961? --- April. Four months later the 8 th month? --- August. So meeting was either July or August that you took Mandela? --- Meeting was in 4 th month. And the swim? --- I can t remember month of swim. Was it 1961 1960? --- Also during 1961. What was interval between swim and meeting? --- About 4 months. So it must have been about January? That could be. Why did you tell Court that you took Mandela to sea during 3 rd or 4 th month was it true? --- Yes. Then you took him to meeting 3 or 4 months later? --- Yes. That would be July/August? --- Yes. Which is right April or July/August? --- I took him to meeting in April. So evidence you gave on Friday is wrong? --- I have forgotten dates and months. Anybody reminded you? --- No. What was date on which you picked up cartons? --- 1961. What was date? --- I can t remember the date. Can t remember the month? --- I can t remember the month either. After cartons you went to place offered labour? --- Yes. How many days after picking up cartons? --- One day. --- Do ---
G33. Do you remember evidence on Friday question was what month of year was it that you went to pick up cartons and you said I am not certain if it was 15.12.61 who told you that date? --- Nobody told me that date. Why did you give it? --- I remembered it on the day I spoke. Why did you say a few minutes ago that you can t remember the month? --- I did not know whether you were referring to cartons at Court Chambers or Rink Str. You have only spoken about 3 cartons you said you could not remember month. Now you say 15.12.61 why if you can t remember month? --- I remembered date on day I gave evidence. Was evidence read to you before you gave evidence? --- No. How could you remember the date on Friday and not today? --- (No answer). What is your answer? --- I thought then I knew it. Why don t you know it today? --- I had forgotten it. When I gave evidence-in-chief I remember I used phrase 15.12.61. Nobody told me date. I don t know today s date. ADJOURNMENT. 2.00 p.m.: I know it is a serious offence to bomb buildings. I think it is a wrong thing to do. It is not thing I would approve of. Not thing I would do. I would not help people if they were going to bomb buildings. You have told us who were in car on Rink St. night? --- Yes. Stopped at Russel Rd. side? --- Yes. What happened when you arrived at this place Rink St.? --- I stopped there. They got out. All of them. I stopped and remained in the car, seated. --- How ---
G34. How long did you wait? --- Not a long time. Whilst there they returned about 7 p.m. It was dark. BY COURT: It was not very dark. The sun had set around about 7 p.m. Night had fallen. How long did you wait from time arrived until you got home? --- From time I arrived at Rink St. to time we went home? Who is we? --- Joseph Jack, Raymond M. and Silas M. And others from Transkei that I did not know. How many went home together? --- Three. But you have mentioned 5? --- When we left Rink St. to go to Fransby there were 7 at Fransby I put 3 people off then there remained 3. We went in direction of labour then I went home. Did you understand interpreter when he asked who we were? --- I understand the interpreter. I first went to Fransby. Question was, how long from time at Rink St. to time you went home you introduced we? --- I must have misunderstood you. Puts: Whole story about that night is a complete fabrication that is why you forgot when you said we went home? --- I am explaining things I know and saw. What period between time you came to Rink St. and time you went home? --- A long time. How long? --- About an hour. Not more? --- Could be more. Arrived at Rink St. at ± 7 p.m. Others got out of car you remained in car? --- Yes. What happened when others returned? --- They entered car, accompanied by white man. I was still in car. I got out and saw them approaching. Why did you say still in car? --- I was in car all --- the ---
G35. the time but when I saw them approaching I got out. Why? --- Once they were approaching I was still in car. When I saw them coming, I got out of car. Why? --- I did not know whether we had to put articles in boot. How far were they away when you saw them? --- They were crossing street coming to car. Then I got up and opened boot. They were approaching. When they got up to car I was behind the car. They had not got up to car when I got out. It could be that they wanted to put things in car that is what I thought. I want to read evidence you gave on Monday. Tell us what was put into boot? --- I remember that. Your answer was Two cardboard boxes contained plastic bags - ¼ sugar pocket of sand bottles containing meal. Also small pipes containing black powder or ground stuff? --- I did not mention mealie meal on Monday. But you said meal described as ground powder also small pipes containing powder. (Reads questions and answers on Friday questioned by this gentleman (Yutar). What were they carrying? --- A carton etc. Then question: How many cartons? --- Only one? --- I don t remember that. There were two when we left Rink St. Then question: Did they have any other things? --- I am not sure. Try to Remember? --- Parcels looked as if they contained mealie meal. Did they have anything else? --- I don t know. Then for third time, did you see anything else? Reply was I saw nothing else. Why did you say that? --- I spoke about things I knew. That was carton, pocket of sand, a plastic bag but you said not sure and then nothing else? Why? --- There was not one carton at Rink St. --- Question ---