What is the Church? - posted by LiveforGod (), on: 2007/6/16 12:11 Please brethren, do not judge me on the subject; but I agree with every word D.S. Warner is saying here. The words church and churches occur in the New Testament 109 times, always translated from ekklesia, which would have been more correctly rendered congregation, which, with the Bible qualifications, would have read,  the congregation of God,  the congregation of the first-born,â etc., denoting its divine Founder and Owner. And,  the congregation that was at Antioch,  The congregation of God which was at Corinth,  The congregation of Asia,  The congregation of Galatia, etc., denoting the different geographical locations of the congregations of God. But whether we use the word church, as in common use, or congregation, the more correct appellation, we should only attach such meaning to it as agrees with the Word of God. To use a Bible word out of its biblical meaning is perverting the Bible. What then is the Bible definition of the church? Answer:  And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.â Eph. 1:22, 23.  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.â Col. 1:18.  Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his bodyâ s sake, which is the church.â Col. 1:24. The church is the body of Christ. And its being the body of Christ, necessarily includes all His members. Therefore to call an earthly building the church is ridiculous, and to call an organized division the church is subverting the truth. No sect contains all the body of Christ, therefore, no sect is the church of God. Then as honest men, who expect to be judged by the Word of God, let us never call anything the church but the body of Christ; i. e., all the saved, either universally, or in any given locality. By Daniel Sindey Warner. Re: What is the Church?, on: 2007/6/16 12:30 LiveForGod, you should never be worried about posting the definition from/of the Greek here. That is the definition, right from the Strong's and any other Greek Lexicon. εκκλησι α ekkle sia ek-klay-see'-ah From a compound of "G1537" and a derivative of "G2564"; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especiall y a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church. Used as "assembly" in - Act 19:32, Act 19:39, Act 19:41 Good points. Thanks. Re: - posted by LiveforGod (), on: 2007/6/16 12:34 Thank you (GrannieAnnie), for the support. I just think that simple things like these Glorify God, and also helps those wh o do not know.god Bless Page 1/5
Re: What is the Church? - posted by LoveHim, on: 2007/6/16 13:46 dear liveforgod and grannieannie, thank you so much for the question and post.. this is especially close to my heart because it wasn't until the last year that the Lord really began to challenge me with th e question "What is the true church"? in my 8 years of walking with the Lord, i had never really explored that question to i ts roots and looked at what God says about it.. i knew that it was the body of Christ, but more than that, what is the chur ch of Christ. it was through this search that i began to learn that we are not only his body, but his bride and his dwelling place.. i learned that not my denomination or local building is the church, but all those believers that are filled with the Holy Spiri t and are joined together in 1 body unto the head which is Christ.. we are his visible expression of love, hope, truth, justice, mercy and grace to the lost. i don't want to talk too much, but i love the question and encourage others who have never really explored the depths of that question to really do so because if will be so beneficial to you and to those you meet. thank you guys for the post and love you all in Christ our head. Re: - posted by LiveforGod (), on: 2007/6/16 14:41 No problem Brother. I'm glad to hear that from you. The Lord put in my heart to share this with SI, because I know that m any people do not have a clear view of what the Church really is. Well, anyway.thank you. Re: What is the Church? - posted by philologos (), on: 2007/6/16 15:31 Actually the problem is a little different to the way you express it. The problem is with the word 'church'. The English wor d "church" comes from the Greek "kuriakes" which means something which belongs to the Lord. The Greek word "kuria kes" was later associated with the phrase 'oikia kuriakes' which means the Lord's house and did mean a building. The real problem is that the word "church" should never have been used. William Tyndale never translated the Greek w ord "ekklesia" by the English word "church". He always used the word "congregation". He did use the word "church" twi ce but as a description of heathen temples in the Acts of the Apostles. When King James authorised a new translation of the Bible he wanted to return to the use of old religious language. He specifically instructed his translators to translate the Greek word "ekklesia" as "church", thus overriding Tyndale's more a ccurate choice. Since that time we have been stuck with the word "church" and although we frequently tell people that the "church" isn't a building but people, it would be more accurate to say an "ekklesia" is not a "church". Modern translations generally foll ow the lead of the KJV here and just repeat the error of using the word "church" to translate the Greek word "ekklesia". Personally, I try not to use the word "church" but prefer to use "assembly" or "the gathered saints". Re: - posted by LiveforGod (), on: 2007/6/16 15:40 Thank you (philologos) for what you added to this post. I already Know that you Know more than I do in the subject, for wich I tank Thank the Lord for. May the Lord keep using your Knoladge for his own Glory.God bless. Brother Sammy Re: - posted by LoveHim, on: 2007/6/16 15:48 thanks philologos, i appreciate the background on the word church.. that is very interesting to find out.. i perfer the word assembly as well. Page 2/5
Re: Who Is The True Church? - posted by Sealed, on: 2007/6/17 14:52 One of the greatest deceptions in the so-called  churchesâ of our modern day is the definition of the word  churchâ itself. We tend to think of it as a building, an institution, a denomination, or a worship service. None of these accurately capture the true meaning of the Greek word  ekklesia.â There is evidence that the word church originally comes from the old English and Germanic word kirke, (pronounced "keer - kay"), and which itself came from the Babylonian for the goddess Circe (pronounced "seer-say"). The goddess Circe was thought to be connected with the power of the sun, which is round, and thus the connection to Circe, a circle. In Anglo-Saxon history, the pagans worshipped the sun standing in a circle. These pagan worshippers became known a s the  circleâ, or the  kirkeâ, then ultimately the  church.â Therefore, the word  churchâ predates Christianity a nd is actually a pagan term rather than a Christian one. The first complete English Bible was the Tyndale Bible in about 1524, and that Bible did not use the word "church" anyw here in its pages, but instead used the word "congregation." This is a more accurate translation, even though it doesnâ t quite capture the original meaning of  ekklesiaâ. The word  churchâ crept into our English translations soon after, p robably because of pagans who accepted some form of Christianity and retained the word  churchâ from their pagan circleâ to refer to their Christian meeting. King James was the  Head of the Church of England, which is essentially the Anglican Church, or the equivalent of England s Roman Catholic Church. At the time of the 1611 King James translation, the Roman Church, as well as the Anglican Church were threatened by separatist and reform movements, and many of their false doctrines were being thr eatened with being exposed. By translating the Greek word  ekklesiaâ as  Church, the Anglican so-called  churc hâ was able to claim to hold the power of salvation over people, just as the Catholic Church does. This is because of a misunderstanding of who the  ekklesiaâ really is. The word  ekklesiaâ comes from two Greek words: Ek means out and Kaleo means call, and this is the verb form. Wh en we put the two together and write the noun form of it, it is Ekklesia and means "called out ones". This is the way it is a lways used in the Greek language. It means an assembly of people who are called out for a purpose. It is used seventy times in the Septuagint which is the Greek translation of the Old Testament from 200-300 BC. It transl ates the Hebrew word kahal (from which latter we have our word call), as  sunagogeâ and  ekklesia.â  Ekklesia occurs in New Testament 115 times (36 in plural), and is always translated "church" except in Acts 19:32, 39, 41 where i t is translated  assembly.  The word ekklesia is also used to translate the Hebrew word miqra in the Septuagint, because it also means  called ou t.â Miqra is the word that the English Bibles usually translate as  convocationâ, as in "it shall be a holy convocation u nto you" (Lev. 23:36). So in the Old Testament the phrase  called outâ is translated as convocation and in the New Te stament the same phrase is translated as  church.â They have the same meaning, but because of the different Englis h words they are made to seem different from each other.  Ekklesia was most often used as a political term prior to the Bible, not a religious one. In classical Greek "ekklesia" meant "an assembly of citizens summoned by the crier, the legislative assembly." It essentially refers to an assembly of people who have been brought together for a common purpose. If it was for a political purpose, it would then be a politic al assembly; if called out for a social purpose, it would be a social assembly. We see a political, or anti-religious  ekklesia,â or church, called out in Acts 19:25-41. Verse 25 tells us that they were called together; verse 32 tells us that it was an assembly (ekklesia, church), but here was an ekklesia (assembly, church ) that was called to work against Paul who had come to preach the gospel to the heathen city, Ephesus. This is not a reli gious church (assembly), but a plotting church meeting to stir up the people to destroy Paul. When we think of the word  churchâ today, we tend to think of it as a religious word, but that is not necessarily the case. The early believers did not view the Church as an institution. Instead, they saw themselves as the  body of God s peo pleâ united under the leadership and control of His Messiah. Using the term  ekklesiaâ and their meetings together in each otherâ s homes gave them greater solidarity and allows them to better understand God s true calling for the Chur ch. God called them to be bound together closer than any other group and to put off any differences that arose This is the true meaning of  ekklesia.â It refers to the born-again Christians whom God has called out of the world, rat her than referring to any particular institution. By choosing this misleading word, the early Catholic/Anglican translators w Page 3/5
ere able to fool the masses into putting their faith in the  churchâ as an institution, rather than realizing that we are the Church. Almost all modern translations of the bible have also translated  ekklesiaâ as  churchâ because this term h as become an integral part of our English language. As Christians we have been called out of the world by our Lord for a specific purpose. "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;" (1 Peter 2:9). The first time ekklesia (church) is used in the spiritual sense is in Matthew 16:18, where Jesus promised to build His chu rch (ekklesia). Applied spiritually, it refers to those who are called out of the word (John 17). It is sometimes used to den ote all the called ones without any particular geographic designation (Matthew 16: 18), and of the called in a particular g eographic area (I Corinthians 1: 2). "Church" used universally (all the called ones) is always used in the singular. "Churc hes," plural, refers to a number of local assemblies of called ones. Hence, Paul wrote, "... The churches of Christ salute you" (Rom. 16: 16). "Church" denotes the called ones who have banded together and appointed overseers. (Acts 14: 23 ). The local church, when fully organized has elders and deacons (Phil. 1: 1; I Tim. 3: 1-13). "Church" is also used of the banded together called ones in the absence of the full organization(acts 14: 23). Out of the 115 times "church" is used in the Greek New Testament, it never refers to the building in which the church me ets. "Church" is also never used to denote denominations. Denominations did not exist in the First Century Church, and most of he people in these denominations today, are not part of Christ s  ekklesiaâ because their faith is in an institut ion and itâ s false teachings, rather than in Christ s atonement alone. The true "Church" consists of those who have been called out of the world by Christ by placing our faith in Him. SealedEternal Re: Assembly, on: 2007/6/17 15:57 Quote: -------------------------Sealed wrote -  Ekklesia was most often used as a political term prior to the Bible, not a religious one. In classical Greek "ekklesia" meant "an assembly of citizens summoned by the crier, the legislative assembly." It essentially refers to an assembly of people who have been brought together for a common purpos e. If it was for a political purpose, it would then be a political assembly; if called out for a social purpose, it would be a social assembly. We see a political, or anti-religious  ekklesia,â or church, called out in Acts 19:25-41. Verse 25 tells us that they were called together; verse 32 tells us that it was an assembly (ekklesia, church), but here was an ekklesia (assembly, church) that was called to work against Paul who had come to prea ch the gospel to the heathen city, Ephesus. This is not a religious church (assembly), but a plotting church meeting to stir up the people to destroy Pau l. When we think of the word  churchâ today, we tend to think of it as a religious word, but that is not necessarily the case. ------------------------- Thanks Sealed and Ron. I posted Acts 19:25 up there and when I did I thought about exactly what you've added in this quote. The sad part was, that I see this description you've given above as exactly what is going on in "the church" or world now. Four types of churches, one just a social event, one political, one antagonistic against others and one that just wants to f ellowship and benefit & bless the Body. Putting aside those "social club" type churches... Where do we divide/quit the antagonism against each other (as und er the "Sects" thread) AND also, how can we explain "the church" gathering as a "Political" assembly? In other words where and when should the Church leave politics alone? Thanks! Page 4/5
addition edit. Page 5/5