DOUG ANTHONY ANTHONY: It goes back in 1937, really. That's when I first went to Canberra with my parents who - father who got elected and we lived at the Kurrajong Hotel and my main
playground was the Parliament. I went to Telopea School but I was only 5, 6 or 7 in those years and I knew a lot of the staff because they lived at the Kurrajong Hotel and I'd go up and play in the Parliament. And I got to know most people in Parliament and different prime ministers during that period of time. Menzies was only a prime minister for a short period but all those people I knew, some much more than others because they stayed at the Kurrajong Hotel whereas the more affluent, and Menzies was considered one of the more affluent at that time, they lived at the Kurrajong Hotel. And so I personally knew most of the staff and I could go into the prime minister's office, I could go into anybody's office because I was only a kid and they used to like seeing me up in Parliament House. HOWARD: And do you remember what your father had to say about Bob Menzies, what sort of man he was? ANTHONY: Oh, he had a diary which he wrote a lot of things about but I don't know, it's vanished. But he didn't like
Menzies very much because he was too arrogant and my father didn't take to that sort of thing and he could be as tough and as rough as Menzies if he wanted to be. He was a bushy and it was a different style of reaction to my father. But anyway, they lived together, they accepted one another. HOWARD: Do you think he was somebody who understood what the average Australian thought? ANTHONY: Yes, yes. I mean he came from a very primitive home. HOWARD: He had modest circumstances? ANTHONY: Very modest, yes. A country town he came from and he grew up, he knew how people lived and reacted and he wasn't a wealthy person at all. He was never wealthy, not right till the end. And he knew how to perform but having been young and so successful, winner of the university prize and becoming a member of Victorian court at the age of 24, what young fellow wouldn't really get a bit proud and of course then going onto the Federal High Court
at 34. He felt he knew everything. HOWARD: That was - in the '30s his conceit got the better of him? ANTHONY: Absolutely, and he struck the wrong man when he faced up to my father because he was - he'd been at war, he'd been at Gallipoli, he'd been wounded whereas Menzies missed all this, with good reason because his two brothers had already gone before him, and he was always a bit wary of my father, I think, because he could hit back pretty strongly himself if he didn't like what Menzies was doing or saying. HOWARD: So it must have been a different Menzies who came back in 1949? ANTHONY: Absolutely. And he and my father got together fairly well because they were both attackers of the Labor Party during those years and he admired Menzies. He did admire his ability and his capacity to explain and talk. I mean I always considered Menzies the best speaker in the world. I
put him on a world basis because - HOWARD: I agree. HOWARD: I thought he was the best political orator I've ever heard. ANTHONY: Absolutely. If I can tell you one little story. I used to always go in the chamber and listen to Menzies in my early days in Parliament and any rate, he was speaking in return to the Labor Party on the budget and they - Calwell who'd criticised our budget and pulled it to pieces and next night Menzies came on and I knew he was coming on and I always like to try and get into the chamber to listen to him because I found it so interesting. Any rate, this particular night he's got there and he slowly just tore Calwell to pieces. I felt sorry for him. He just poured it into him and made out how stupid he was and his silly attitude. He was unkind, he could be unkind. But when it was over I thought now, if ever I could make a speech half as good as that, I'd be very happy.
Well, that night about 1 o'clock in the morning, there was a party in McEwen's office and one of the prime minister's girls was up there and they were all having a party in his office and I went over and spoke to them and I said, "Oh, I was in there listening to your boss tonight, gosh, he made a great speech. It just was so easy, no effect at all." And this girl said, "Easy?" I said, "Yes." She said, "Oh." She said, "I was up to 4 o'clock last night writing every single word of that speech." And that taught me a lesson that if you're going to make a good speech you've got to work on it. HOWARD: What was he like as PM in Cabinet. Did he boss people around or did he generally listen to different pov before reaching a conclusion. ANTHONY: He was in charge of Cabinet and he could be very cruel to Cabinet ministers. But particularly the ones who were second grade ministers, when they came in and they had a submission to put down to the Cabinet, he would test them out and often he'd read through the papers and as you know, there can be pages and pages of stuff that the
Department will give you and you haven't got time to read all those in a Cabinet decision. HOWARD: Tell me when you became a member of the Menzies ministry, can you remember the occasion and what he said to you? ANTHONY: I can remember. I was in this particular room when it happened. And I didn't expect any promotion to a minister because I was too young and anyway, it was in the afternoon and the phone went and Margo said, "There's a message here for you from the Prime Minister" and I said, "The Prime Minister, what's he doing ringing me?" And I picked up the phone and he said, "Is that you, Douglas?" Always called me Douglas, Scottish word. I said, "Yes." "Douglas, I'd like you to join my ministry." I said, "What?" I didn't know what to say or what to do. Anyway, he said, "I'd like you to become Minister for Interior." I hardly knew what interior meant but I did know it controlled Canberra.
ANTHONY: Whenever there was a problem it would come to me about Canberra. Certainly if Dame Pattie was upset about something and sent a message to me it got fixed very quickly. HOWARD: Funny about that, yes. ANTHONY: And that's how I really developed a good relationship with the Menzies, particularly Dame Pattie, and I would react to things that were annoying her or shouldn't be happening and so I got the Department to do it. And I think that was all good. Menzies really loved Canberra. HOWARD: There s a story that against all expectations you persuaded Bob Menzies to agree to relocating the statue of King George V outside Parl House. How did you bring that off? ANTHONY: Well if you - you probably saw the statue down there, it's been moved right to the side and you can hardly see it, but that King George V it was a big, huge statue right in front of Parliament House and if you tried to look up to the
War Memorial in Canberra you'd get - it would be broken a bit by this big statue and it was an awful statue personally. And nobody would come forward to have it moved because they realised that the Prime Minister was so closely associated with the royal family that it might react on him and he didn't want that done. And the head of the National Development Commission and the Secretary for Interior both of them knew it ought to be gone and both of them would say to me, "When are you going to do something about that statue?" And I said, "Why don't you ask the Prime Minister?" And neither of them would come forward. Any rate, it was a good day, it might have been a Wednesday, and I went in and talked to him about a couple of things and I said, "Prime Minister, while I'm here, could I just take you over to the window" and you could see out of the Prime Minister's window then, straight across to where this great monument was. And I said, "You mightn't like this, Prime Minister, but I've got to tell you that that big statue shouldn't be there. It's interrupting with the excellent view
we've got now right out there over Burley Griffin Lake and Anzac Parade, right up the top and if you sit in the front of Parliament House it interfered." And he looked at me, he didn't say a thing and any way, he got up and walked over to window to have a look. I didn't say anything. HOWARD: You thought your ministerial career was about to end, did you? ANTHONY: He didn't say anything. Came back, sat in his seat, he said, "Douglas, I think you're right." HOWARD: What changes do you think TV s introduction made to the way politics was conducted and how do you think M adjusted to the new medium of TV? ANTHONY: Menzies was never terribly keen on television. He didn't think it was good for the young people to be staying up at night-time and not doing their work at home. And he tended to be cautious and he didn't want us going ahead before we knew what was the best technology to be using. So Australia had two or three years to lay on other
countries and there was a lot of criticism coming from that but eventually they made a decision to go. HOWARD: How do you think he adjusted himself to using television as a medium of political argument and advocacy? ANTHONY: I'd watched him for a few years, particularly when he was overseas, and there would be interviewers there talking or trying to be smart and he'd just flip them like that and shut them up. He had a brilliant mind for that sort of thing. HOWARD: He was able to transfer his rapid response capacity to television? ANTHONY: Yes, very good, very good. HOWARD: I always thought what I saw of him on television, I thought he adjusted very well to a medium he said he didn't like, but he adjusted. ANTHONY: He adjusted. He could handle it very well. I
mean it was like he could in Parliament, if the questions, didn't matter what the question is, he could turn it around in his favour or to embarrass the person who asked the question. He'd had all those years of experience and that was just like going onto television. These persons without hesitation asking him a question and he'd answer it back. He was well regarded on television. HOWARD: When he finally did retire, I guess most people in the few months late in 1965, they felt it was coming and was only a matter of time before he retired? ANTHONY: Yeah. HOWARD: What was it, still something of a shock? ANTHONY: I think it was slowly developing that way but I don't think John McEwen knew. I think he wasn't sure what Menzies was doing. I really don't think anybody knew what he was going to do until he made the decision that he would retire. And that was a big shock to us all.
HOWARD: Must have been - he announced his decision to a joint party meeting, didn't he? ANTHONY: Yes. HOWARD: Must have been quite a moment that because he'd been at the helm for so long? ANTHONY: Yes. Well, Holt had been there about for a long while and he automatically believed that he would become the prime minister and that was pretty natural. HOWARD: And most people thought Menzies had anointed Holt to follow him? ANTHONY: Yes, yes.