An Interview with Grant Schnarr about The Art of Spiritual Warfare by Nancy Lee
Life is more about integration with others and with love and being of service and integrity. Nancy: Grant, let s start out by talking about spiritual warfare. What is that? Grant: One way to look at it is that everybody battles with his or her own personal demons, whether that s addictions, fear, or rage. Spiritual warfare, in Eastern terms, is really learning to master yourself or these enemies to your spiritual happiness and well-being. The book The Art of Spiritual Warfare is a guidebook to help people master themselves, to defeat the negativity that can be a real spiritual enemy to our happiness. Nancy: Let me ask you about this term master or mastering self. On some level, that implies closing down or shutting off, going into denial. That would be one way. Let s clear up how we can master self without stopping that flow. Grant: Let me give you an illustration of that. When we talk about those demons, it s not about closing off or shutting off all our natural impulses that are actually very healthy for us. Fear becomes a demon when it rules our life. To master the self is to put fear in its proper place, where it is actually being of service to us or subservient to our higher, more noble self. When we do that, we are really mastering the self. Maybe another term for mastering the self would be integration. That is where we end up with the real problems in life. We have different levels of needs and loves. The very base ones are caring for ourselves and all the proper things we need to do to have a safe physical life. If the demons reign within us and we become gluttonous or have an addictive personality or allow that fearful part of us to come out, that s what really destroys and shuts off the spiritual, more noble part. Life is more about integration with others and with love and being of service and integrity. The mastering of self in the spiritual warfare is one of defeating these impulses from being the ruler within us and making them serve. When we do that, we become a whole person. Nancy: I am thinking about the addictive personality, and I wonder if you agree that nearly everyone is addicted to something in some way? Grant: We are finding that to be true more and more. A decade ago the whole idea of addiction or someone s being addicted to something put them in a certain category, which was very hurtful, whereas today, in the last decade and a half, we have seen recovery groups spring up for almost every problem you could think of.
Nancy: Before we get more into the interview, tell us about Grant Schnarr. I know that you have battled your own demons and have lived to tell it. Grant: I will use the phrases one day at a time and There but for the grace of God go I. To get an overview, my name is German, and the root word for schnarr means disturber of the peace. So you know what I am dealing with. When I became a minister, my grandfather probably rolled over in his grave. I ve battled and have gone through a lot of work with addictions and peeling off the layers of the onion. I have also had a lot of interest in spiritual things and spiritual realities. It has been a natural flow in my life to help people out, to help them learn to live with more integrity and to overcome those things that they need to overcome in their lives. That s what really brings me joy. Nancy: What does it mean to be a Swedenborgian minister? Grant: Another name for the Swedenborgian Church is the New Church. It has been around about two-hundred years and follows the teachings of the eighteenthcentury scientist and theologian Emanuel Swedenborg. He has had an effect on a lot of New Age concepts and also influence on the newer religions in the last two-hundred years, including Religious Science, Christian Science, even Unity and Unitarianism. Nancy: These are all off-shoots of Swedenborg? Grant: You can find a connection in all of them. Swedenborg was pretty amazing. He was a scientist who really believed that spirituality could make sense and work in the world. It s not such a big mystery. There are laws to the universe, and there are laws to the world. What he puts forth is a very rational, common-sense approach, which I find incredibly rewarding. One of the reasons I wrote The Art of Spiritual Warfare was that so many different religions teach so much good stuff about this. With Swedenborg, his first premise is that there is good in every religion. You don t necessarily have to follow one path to salvation and that we all worship the same God. If we put love first, we would really be a lot more together. He talks about a loving God. He talks about the path of spiritual growth, which isn t something that takes place instantaneously but is a process of growth. I became interested in writing books on the twelve-step program because Swedenborg s whole method of how one grows spiritually is almost identical to the twelve step program.
Nancy: This is fascinating to think of the impact that one individual has perhaps had on so many of us. Grant: I agree. If you study, you can find roots back to Swedenborg in many different teachings. There is a book called Heaven: A History that talks about the modern heaven and asserts that Swedenborg gave us the idea of the modern heaven that we have today not just of angels playing on harps but a very real world and a place where we can follow out our loves, a place of beauty. Nancy: Given what you have said about Swedenborg and your being a Swedenborgian minister, I assume that these are the principles that you teach on a weekly basis. Also, the congregation seems fairly small and yet feels quite large at the same time. Grant: Exactly. One of the things that Swedenborg saw was that his teachings would lead people back to some of the purity or the spirituality in religion. Everybody can look around and see how people have abused religion either for power or money. What Swedenborg tries to do is to get people back to the roots of the spirit. It is much more on an individual level. Because of that, we have not had a large campaign to go out and convert the world. It is more a sense of sharing some of these beautiful things that Swedenborg has talked about. Nancy: It certainly expands my heart. Grant, let s talk a little more about The Art of Spiritual Warfare specifically. Where did you get the idea for this book? Grant: It is interesting because I was visiting a friend, Dave Roth, also a Swedenborgian minister, in Boulder, Colorado. Going through his books one day, I found a book called The Art of War by Sun Tzu. He lived about 2,500 years ago and was a Chinese general. The title was intriguing. I found it to be a very different kind of book. It had a very spiritual angle to it. One of Sun Tzu s first principles was, The general who walks in the Tao will be a successful general. I thought, Now this is a different way to teach war tactics....swedenborg gave us the idea of the modern heaven that we have today not just of angels playing on harps but a very real world and a place where we can follow out our loves, a place of beauty.
Nancy: What does that mean? Grant: If you look at it in Judeo-Christian terms, it has to do with going with the flow of providence. So often we try to control our world and end up working against it. We plan and plan. To walk in the way of the Tao means to go with a gentle flow of all things that lead into order and into happiness. Sometimes the best thing to do is surrender to those powers. Always be open to the leading of the Divine and of the universe. That opens us up to a lot of insight, power, and energy. Some of Sun Tzu s teachings could translate into tactics that could be used in spiritual growth. I asked Dave if I could borrow the book, and he gave it to me. I then got other translations of the book, studied those, then went through all the different religions on this subject, and finally came up with the book The Art of Spiritual Warfare. Nancy: The energy of your heart is bringing much light to us. Grant, what kinds of benefits can people expect to get from reading this book? Grant: The aim of the book is to give a sense of spiritual freedom. Let me give you an example. In some of the training I do, I usually have two different types of people who come to me. Let s say you are faced with some kind of confrontation. Maybe it s at work or with a partner. There are those who are the Type-A warrior. They hear warrior and come in with so much aggressive energy that we teach them to learn how to step back, to yield, and to make a choice. I can relate a little more to this kind. When someone pushes my buttons, I often react with a lot of aggressive energy. Sometimes it s not the best thing to do. With that kind of person, you really have to teach them to become aware and then to step back. Then there is the other kind who doesn t want any confrontation. They might be considered the codependent type, people who will do anything to please and not get involved or try to work things out. We teach them first to become aware but then to step in to more of an assertive energy when it is needed. We can see this in places where there is abuse or codependency or other issues where people need to learn when to protect boundaries that are important to their innocence. Some things you can find in the book are methods taken from Eastern religions, like pure meditation. Meditation is about becoming aware. If we can become aware of those thoughts that come into our minds, especially when we are stressed, and not simply identify with them but see them come in, then we can decide, Do I want to think this? Do I want to act this way? Now you have a choice. The person who becomes a master or warrior on a spiritual level is one who learns to have choice in how they are going to act or react into the world. That, I believe, is the greatest benefit. From there you can have a happier life. Part of the reason I do this work is that I want to help people on an individual level, but I also believe that we can do a lot for the world. There are so many different people in different areas doing wonderful things. I feel that part of my contribution is to help people with actually going into action and living with love and integrity in a way that makes a difference. If I can help one person at a time to live a life of love and integrity, I think we can do a lot to change the world.
Nancy: I really believe in what you are saying and in your dedication. I know that, if we can heal the self on the emotional, physical, and spiritual level, we are in fact helping to heal the planet. Grant: That is exactly my point. Swedenborg said, Every good action you bring into the world creates a chain reaction with a series of consequences that goes on for eternity. I think you can prove that scientifically. You start the motion, bring that positive energy into the world, and it doesn t stop. If we are talking about changing the world, you have to start with the self. If you don t, it is a palliative cure. A lot of people say, Who am I? What can I do for the world? Everybody has gifts. They need to learn to use those gifts and put away those things that interfere with those gifts. No matter who you are, you can make an incredible difference, not only to someone you know, but to people you don t know, for centuries down the road. Nancy: Let s say someone comes to you and they are addicted, they are angry, and they have all kinds of issues they have never dealt with. What kind of practical, day-by-day information could you give to them? Grant: Number one, get in some kind of group. Sun Tzu talks about, when you are in enemy territory, making allies. Get with people who know the lay of the land. That is why recovery groups are so critical. Half of it may be the steps themselves. The other half is that people go there to keep you in integrity and to help you along the way. They have been there. We have spiritual warrior groups that we hook people up with. The first thing I like to do is to get people into a safe place so they can talk about their truth, so they can get truthful with themselves; get in touch with their emotions or their inner child. We need to give them the support to begin to get honest with themselves and start a new path.
Nancy: I believe that the self-help groups are incredibly beneficial. However, I would like to address the issue of the kinds of groups that never let you graduate, the ones that keep you like the psychotherapist that you see for twenty years on the same issue. I have had so many people mention there is a fear of actually getting better. In fact, they tend to label you: If you are this way, you will always be this way. You will not grow any from this. What do you think of this concept? Grant: I have certainly seen that. This is what I try to help people work through. It really is a victim mentality. It is one of the hardest things to deal with as a spiritual helper. There is so much denial involved. I am reminded of that story in the New Testament where Jesus goes to this man who has been lying by the water waiting to be healed for thirty-eight years, and no one had taken him to the waters. Jesus goes up to him and says, Do you wish to be made well? I think the disciples were probably shocked, but Jesus saw something that others didn t. That guy was really comfortable there. All he had to do was to take up his bed and walk. Part of the warrior is to move beyond wound to a positive energy in the world. That s a discipline. Some people come to us and have weekends where they go through some kind of emotional catharsis. There are a lot of self-help group weekends where you can do that. Some people are sort of addicted to that. I am currently preparing for a phase-two weekend in the mountains of Pennsylvania, and someone recently said to me, I went through the first weekend and got this emotional catharsis, but this sounds more like on-going training. I said, You are absolutely right. You have to learn the discipline, a word that most people don t like, and that takes practice. That s what life is about. It takes practice to walk with integrity. It takes practice to meditate. It takes practice to be awake and aware. That is where we move beyond the wound. Nancy: It doesn t mean that you are necessarily perfect in these areas, just because your goal is to be. It does take dedication, practice, and focus. Sometimes we do it well, and sometimes we don t. Part of the warrior is to move beyond wound to a positive energy in the world. That s a discipline. Some people come to us and have weekends where they go through some kind of emotional catharsis. Grant: That is certainly true. Another thing that I have discovered, in my own journey, is that often the gift that we have to give the world is associated with our wounds. For example, as with many of us, when I grew up, I didn t have a spiritual mentor. My father was very good at teaching me how to run heavy equipment. I was the only kid on the block who dug underground forts with a backhoe. But he was so quiet when it came to questions like Why am I here? or What am I supposed to be doing? or What do I do with these urges I have now that I am a teenager? I believe that generation just didn t talk about that stuff. Part of my goal that came out of my childhood experience is that I am going to reach out to teenagers and give them that spiritual leadership that I didn t have. I see this time and again, actually: goals can come out of the wounds. Often our mission will be associated with what we work through, and it brings out that positive energy. As we work to cooperate in healing others, we find that healing in ourselves. Nancy: Grant, let s talk for a moment about that kid with the backhoe. What kind of control issues did he end up with? I think there might be a lot of control freaks out there, and I have a tendency to be one of them. I thought we could discuss that issue. Grant: I grew up as a child of an alcoholic. There was a lot of fear, and I felt I had to control everything in my world. I have dealt with that a lot. The positive goal of it is that I tended to go into leadership, but the shadow is that I tend to take too much control and not allow people to have that sense of freedom and self-determination. I have come a long way in working with people through the ministry and through the spiritual-warfare classes. It has been a big factor in my life. Most of it comes back to fear, peel away the onion, and there is the fear. I have needed to come to the dark night of the soul and to ask whether I am going to trust in the Divine or not. That is what it really comes down to. It is about taking Sun Tzu s advice and walking in the Tao. I feel good about it; it has been a good journey. And my wife still reminds me, when it s appropriate, when I slip more into control than just expressing my feelings.
Nancy: Congratulations to you, your wife, and your children for having the support that is basically helping to heal all of you and the families you have come from. I have a strong sense that your family shines for many other families to see. Grant: Thank you very much. I have four boys from ages fourteen to twenty. It has been so wonderful to see these boys turn around. I have one that is graduating as a senior this year, and he decided that he wanted to start a program for seventh- and eighth-graders where they would meet with some of the older boys. The reason was that he was always afraid of the older boys when he was that young. He has about 100 kids whom he works with. I could burst into tears about how joyful I am to see that kind of beautiful integrity and love going into the world. I am really proud of my family. Nancy: If you did nothing but inspire that son to do what he is doing, your entire life is blessed. When you see and feel your children doing good works in the world, you know that you have actually done something that is beneficial to others. Those difficult childhoods really do cause us to stretch and grow and become something as we strive to be more comfortable in our lives and in our bodies. Then we have some gifts to give. Grant, could you discuss SWET, Spiritual Warfare Effectiveness Training? Grant: It is a training program that first started out through the men s movement, with leaders like Robert Bly and Robert Moore and others, seeing that there were a lot of young men out there who were disconnected to the world. We have seen this reflected on the news in terrible ways. I have a real love to reach out to old and young alike and bring them to a place of safety. For young men, I want to emphasize that it is not only a place of safety, but also a place where they can talk about real issues with older men. It is also a place of play, a place of ritual, and a place of spirit. We are alldenominational. We reach into all the spiritual philosophies and use what we think is of value to help people connect with one another. I am preparing right now for a SWET II weekend. The whole program is based around awareness and walking with intentionality. We do a lot of teaching, we have some games, do a sweat lodge and a couple of other Native American rituals. It is about getting in touch with nature, with one another, and with the Divine. Nancy: This is for men and women? Grant: This particular weekend is for men and boys. We also conduct workshops for men and women. Nancy: Let s talk about some examples of a battle strategy for spiritual growth. Grant: One of the things that would be useful is to mention the things that Sun Tzu talks about and see how they might apply. He talks a lot about knowing your terrain and staying on ground that is unassailable to the enemy. Part of that comes under the idea of awareness. Many times in our lives, we try to improve ourselves in some area, but we keep on doing the same things that lead us into trouble. Here is an example that I see all the time in recovery. The first time the alcoholic sobers up, they get out of recovery and decide they will go back to the same bar with their friends, but now they will only drink a Coke. They go back into the same terrain, and before you know it, they are drinking again.
Nancy: And all the alcoholic friends are saying, It s so good to have you back with us! Let s send you another round! Grant: Exactly. One of the things people need to learn is that sometimes they need to change their terrain and that might even mean changing friends. This principle can apply in many different areas. I have seen so many people struggle with the same inner demons, but they keep moving into the same patterns. Sometimes all they have to do is shift the pattern, and the demon goes away. We need to concentrate on those battles that are essential to our spiritual growth and avoid the ones that aren t. That can save us a lot of pain in our lives. Sun Tzu says, To win a hundred victories in a hundred battles is not the highest excellence. The highest excellence is to subdue the enemy without fighting at all. That fits right in with our whole way of thinking. I like to focus on awareness as a first step. It comes in on so many different angles. Sun Tzu talks about, If you know the enemy and yourself, you will not be at risk in a hundred battles. Do we really know ourselves? For a lot of my life, I walked around with blinders on. I didn t see the effect I was having on other people. I wasn t aware of the traps and snares that were out there that would cause me to go back into addictive/compulsive behavior or bring up my fears. One of the things we teach is getting in touch with your own body. Where are you holding the stress in your body? We carry all our emotions in our body. Where is the fear? Where is the shame? Where is the anger? I teach people to honor those emotions but to give the body permission to let go. We are not just trying to remove these things but hold them in a better way, as long as we choose to hold them. From there, it is about becoming aware of our surroundings and the effect we have on other people. One of my friends who was in Vietnam talked about the phenomenon called the thousandyard stare. When the soldiers were in the trenches or wherever, they always had to keep their vision out about a thousand yards because they never knew when they were going to be ambushed. In some ways, that is what we want people to develop spiritually, to have that awareness out about a thousand yards in our lives. What s coming over the horizon and how can I prepare for it as a useful experience? Most of the time we walk around and get into these situations and then wonder, How did that happen? There are exercises that are very physical all the way to very spiritual that can help us develop not only self-awareness but take it to the extreme, which is empathy. This is having a real empathetic approach to people and ourselves. When I give speeches and talks and people ask, What is this spiritual warfare? I tell them stories of people that have really been through some pain and what they have done to overcome it; and they usually get it right away. Nancy: Grant, let s go back to the issue of possibly having to change your friends. This is something people find to be so distasteful and frightening. They are afraid that not only will they give up this addiction that makes them feel connected somehow but also their lives as they know it. It is almost more than they can fathom to give up all the things that are familiar to them. What can you say to give them the courage to understand that the friends they are leaving can be replaced by those who are more in sync with their new life style? It does take courage.
You think you are going to lose everything, but when you let go, you gain so much more. Grant: It certainly does. You bring up even a bigger issue of the idea that there are certain things within us that need to die. Part of the spiritual warrior is the death of the ego, the death of the fears themselves. Swedenborg talks about the idea that the old person must die before the new one can be conceived. Lao-tzu talks about that as well: If you want to live, you need to know how to die. You can find this philosophy in almost every religion. It is a letting-go process. Part of it is letting go of our view of what we think the world should look like and having that trust that, if we walk a certain path, things will open up for us. It is hard. But it is not only about teaching people but also helping them through this. In my work, especially dealing with a lot of people who go through the program, I can actually hook them up with people who are healthy. This helps to form new relationships to start them on their path. I grew up with that idea that the old person must die, but it was about two years ago, when I was in a sweat lodge, that I realized, as I was processing a lot of internal and external stress, Oh, you mean I have to die. The controlling I, the fearful I, the one who really wants to make sure that everything is going to go well I have to let go of that completely and allow for new energies and new powers to come in. It is almost a paradox. You think you are going to lose everything, but when you let go, you gain so much more. You think you are going to lose your own sense of self, life, and determination, but you actually get more. To a degree, there is a leap of faith required. I acknowledge it is rough, especially when you have been in a certain pattern for so long. Nancy: Particularly for young people who are trying to get out of the grooves of overly social companions, especially if they are trying to focus more on the serious responsibilities of life. In your book, you talk about ignoring desire and that eventually the desire will go away. Could you elaborate? Grant: Swedenborg talks about that. It s basically the idea that, if you don t allow something to come into the world, eventually it will go away. Desire lives on action. You can keep desires in your head and get into a lot of fantasy for the rest of your life, but the key is to change your actions. You can actually starve some of those things. With addictions, for example, when you go through recovery, in the beginning there is an incredible hunger to get back into your addiction. Through learning a new pattern and starving that addiction, you come out of that hunger, and it actually goes away.
Nancy: What is the goal of all of this? Grant: My goal is to help the world have more love and integrity, one person at a time, starting with myself. On a self-help level, the goal is to live a happier, healthier life. You become increasingly spiritual as you do it for other people and the universe. That s when it really turns over. You are no longer doing it for yourself, which is sort of a selfish spiritual approach. Nancy: It is interesting to me how many wonderful things are done for others, but the greatest benefactor is the giver. That s the truth. Grant, this inner peace idea, is it really possible? For more information on Grant Schnarr, please visit www.grantschnarr.com Grant: Yes, but, as you said, life is a growth process. You never reach that point. If you believe in reincarnation, you might reach it in a hundred thousand lives, or you might reach it in heaven, if you have another faith. I have seen it in my self and many times in others. You can come to a level of spiritual peace, a real sense of confidence and joy. It may not be all the time. You still have to deal with the bills and the things that go wrong. Yet there is this underlying current that flows, that makes all things tolerable. There is joy in everything. You can even get to a point where the pain is a growth process. I m not there yet all the time. Nancy: It s that silver-lining concept. We can at least look for what the gift has been from this. Sometimes all you can do is throw your hands up and fall on the ground and say, I hope it shows up at some point. It seems that the greater pain we go through, there is an equal depth of learning that is available. Grant: I really believe that. The other thing, which may be unpopular, is you ve got to go through the dark night of the soul on some issues. That is where growth takes place. You don t have to initiate it; it will come, especially if you begin to confront some of those things in yourself that you need to give up. It is going to be difficult, but it is through that process that you find freedom and peace. That may not be the most popular thing to say, but it is the most honest. Nancy: The key is on the other side of the dark night. Your life can blossom and grow. This interview was originally broadcast on April 7, 2001