0 VILLAGE OF SAGAPONACK COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK -----------------------------------------------x VILLAGE OF SAGAPONACK ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS REGULAR MEETING AND PUBLIC HEARING ------------------------------------------------x A P P E A R A N C E S: ELLIOT MEISEL, Chairperson February th, 0 0:00 AM WILLIAM TILLOTSON, Vice-Chairperson MARILEE FOSTER, Member RICHARD THAYER, Member JOHN WHITE, Member RICHARD FERNAN, Special Counsel PAT ARANCIO REMKUS, Secretary Montauk Highway Sagaponack, New York 0 N O T P R E S E N T: LAUREN THAYER, Alternative Member ANTHONY TOHILL, Village Attorney Also Present: John Woudsma, Building Inspector Sara Galante Court Reporter
INDEX APPLICATIONS: PAGE: Safacalasada LLC - 0---, Application #-0 Ocean Breeze Lane 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC - 00 0---, Application #-0 Hedges Lane 0
0 0 February th, 0 CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Okay. We have a quorum. Good morning. Thank you all for joining us. I'm calling to order the February 0 meeting of the Sagaponack Board of Appeals. Please join me for the Pledge of Allegiance. (Whereupon, the Pledge of Allegiance is recited). As you may have noticed, we are trying something a little different today. We usually meet at :00 PM on Fridays, but in an effort to try and accommodate our various constituency, the board members, our staff, the applicants, and interested parties, we're trying to do this at 0:00 AM on Fridays; it's also for the stenographer's sake not to have to get out here from far away in traffic. It's not definitive that this will be going on in the future. We're going to try and see how it works. But in order to
0 0 February th, 0 avoid procedural challenges through our substantiative decisions on the basis of improper notice, let's make sure that when we do decide what day it is, our website correctly reflects it. Today we have, sitting in for Tony Tohill who is away on vacation, Rick Fernan. Rick is a qualified attorney in land use and has sat with us in the past, although Tony has been pretty good in his attendance. So we miss you, but we're glad to have you with us today. MR. FERNAN: Thank you. It's good to be here. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: And for those of you who don't know us, and for our stenographer, the people sitting here on the dais are Richard Thayer, who has been a member here for a long time; Bill Tillotson, myself, Elliott Meisel, Marilee Foster and John White, and of course, Pat Arancio Remkus, our assistant clerk. First order of business is the
0 0 February th, 0 Safacalasada LLC minutes from the January meeting. Have the members of the Board had an opportunity to review those minutes? MEMBER TILLOTSON: Yes. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Do I have a motion to accept them? MEMBER TILLOTSON: I'll make that motion. MEMBER FOSTER: I second. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: All in favor? (Whereupon, all respond, "Aye"). So those will be put into the minute book, and they are available on the website as well, the minutes of our meetings. We have one item of old business to dispose of and that is to render a decision on the application of Safacalasada, LLC. That's pertaining to Ocean Breeze Lane. We heard testimony for an area variance. Substantially, the overall bulk of the dwelling was not changing, but there was a shift of non-habitable space,
0 0 February th, 0 Safacalasada LLC consisting of a garage being converted into habitable bedrooms which created a need for a variance, technically, because it then resulted in the wealth of the dwelling exceeding the square footage. The property -- the house occupied the same footprint, the exterior of the building was being improved, there was no environmental adverse effect, certainly no change in the neighborhood. There was really no feasible alternative for the applicant, and it was the minimum that was necessary to grant them the relief. Accordingly, we have a decision proposed to grant the requested variance. Do I have a motion to accept that? MR. TILLOTSON: Motion to approve as printed. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: All in favor? (Whereupon, all reply "Aye"). So now we come to the exciting part
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC of the agenda, the one that got you all up early to appear here. This is Application Number of 0. It's the application of Deacon Davis Hedges, LLC. It pertains to Hedges Lane. This is an application for an area variance, again, for an exceedance of square footage. It is not the main dwelling, which is actually about nine percent less than would be permitted, but it's a substantial increase in the square footage of the accessory structure. And for the applicant? THE SECRETARY: Elliott, I don't have the affidavits. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Will you present those? MR. KRIEGSMAN: Yes. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: I always forget to make sure on the record, that we have the affidavits. You want to introduce yourself? If
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC you're more comfortable, you can sit there as long as you project. MR. KRIEGSMAN: Okay. Great. I'm just going to sit. My client is going to join me as well. Good morning, Chairman, Members of the Board. My name is Alex Kriegsman, Main Street, Sag Harbor. I'm here on behalf of the applicant, and also with me is John Hedges. As we set forth, I'd like to discuss each of the factors from the code. But just to start, to talk about what this is really about, which is trying to preserve an historic home, which, as you all know, is a critical component of the character of this village. It's been there since, and anyone who has seen it knows how beautiful it is and how important it is to the character of this Village. With me today is John Hedges. He'd like to briefly address the Board as well, if that's okay. And this home has
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC been in his family, he's the th generation, and he's worked very hard to try to keep this house in his family and keep this house here in this Village. As to the factors under the code, the first question is whether this will create an undesirable change in the neighborhood, and I respectfully submit it will do the opposite. It will have a great benefit in maintaining this historic home here in this Village. The next question is whether the benefits that the applicant seeks to achieve can be achieved by another method, and we respectfully submit that the answer to that is no. And I would note by our count, I think the Village has done this eight other times. It's a way to allow an applicant to really develop a property and deal with the economic realities of the east end today, in 0, but at the same time maintain a historic house. We acknowledge that that is a
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC 0 substantial variance, both from the gross floor area, and somewhat from the height. We're seeking two variances, but we submit, again, respectfully, that it's necessary to achieve the goal. Will it have an adverse impact on the physical or environmental condition of the neighborhood? Again, we would submit that it's just the opposite, and that this house -- this is about preserving this house and it's about avoiding the situation that has happened so many other times in Sagaponack and here on the east end where something like this just gets torn down, gets demolished and gets replaced with something. We submit that this house is not replaceable. Mr. Hedges would like to address you as well, and then I'll, of course, answer any questions that the members have. MR. HEDGES: Thank you. I'll stand if it's okay. It helps me project a
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC little better. As Mr. Kriegsman said, the house has been in the family since. It was built by Deacon David Hedges who was a prominent individual in the early Sagaponack community. A lot of history written on the provenance of the house. Deacon David Hedges himself was a delegate in the New York Ratifying Convention for the federal constitution in New York. And we understand he did support the new constitution on that. So he was appointed by the people in the east end, at the time, was an able representative of that. So the house goes back that far. It is a fairly large structure. It's been an important part of the fabric of the community since. My mother died over two years ago leaving the house. Unfortunately, it is in poor condition. As far as a building project, it is a net-negative. We have received estimates of over two million
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC dollars to rehabilitate the house and make it habitable. I'm not just talking about comfortably living, I'm talking about actually habitable. And we believe that's a worthy endeavor, and that's why we're asking for the variances before you, to allow us to build a structure and then use that part of what we would potentially gain -- and there's no guarantee -- to actually restore the old house. And we came up with this idea after we filed for a demolition permit that went before the AHRB, which they subsequently denied along with a letter to the Zoning Board of Appeals, recommending the variances which we could then join with the Village to preserve the house. And again, from an economic, financial standpoint, it would be much better if the house weren't even there. I don't think that goes well for either the Village of Sagaponack or our family,
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC for that matter. So we're willing to step out and do the right thing on this, but the variances are the key to this. And some of the variances are tenet only to the house itself, like height variance, setback, that sort of thing, otherwise, the house is put at risk because it is not economically feasible to take the house as it stands and make it into something which is -- anybody would really want to live in. The AHRB did take a tour of the house. They've seen it. I don't know if any board members here have been to the house and seen it, but it is something that we're willing to do at cost to ourselves. And we ask the Board to support the application before you today. I stand by for any questions. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Thank you. We have a lot of people here. If anyone wants to speak, everyone will be given an opportunity.
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC But first, I'll entertain any additional statements in support of this application. Anyone here who wants to speak in support first? MR. ZEIGLER: In support? CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Yes. Just stand up, identify yourself and the location of your own residence. MR. ZEIGLER: Sure. My name is Peter Zeigler. I currently live in Hampton Bays. I'm very familiar with the house. I've had the opportunity to tour the house with Mr. Hedges' brother, Bill Hedges, this past fall, and it is a beautiful home. I have friends in Quogue and in East Hampton who have homes of similar ages and they have been restored, and if you have an opportunity to go and to see some of these homes, it's absolutely spectacular. It's a historical structure. It's -- to echo the sentiments of Mr. Hedges, it's a gem, it's a diamond in the community of
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC Sagaponack. And when you drive by a house like that, you stop and look and you really just admire what is still standing in the history of this particular home. If any of the Board Members have not been inside this home, I encourage you to go inside, get a tour of the house, and -- before you make your decision. Because I think, unless you've seen the house, you're really doing yourself a disservice if you don't see the inside of the structure before you make a decision. It's -- once again, it's an asset to your community. And you folks have the opportunity to take credit for saving this gem, which will be -- which will be there for future generations. And thank you for allowing me to speak. I'm a proponent of saving the house. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Mr. Zeigler, thank you for the statement, but do you
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC have any professional expertise in architect contract or historian which might enrich your statement in some way? MR. ZEIGLER: Well, my father was an architect, he graduated first in his class. I'm in the power-washing business. I have a hobby which may link me to -- links me to historical homes. My hobby is metal detecting. I actually metal detected on Mr. Hedges' property with permission, I found some interesting artifacts. I metal detected all along the east end here. Some of you may have seen me in the paper this past fall, I found Fred Hemmilarch's (phonetic) ring he lost 0 years ago. And Fred has allowed me to detect on his property. He has a home which was built in 0 which is moved back. There's a beautiful stone well on the property. I've seen a lot of historical homes, and there's just something about a house that was made with your hands 0 years ago. And you just ask
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC yourself, how did they make this? How did they survive to make this? How did they get here? And you just don't get that with a new house. It's just something that is -- it's just a wow factor for anybody who has an interest in historical anything for a home like that. Am I an expert in construction? No. But I come from an architect family. I know a little bit about it. There's just something about a home like that, that once it's gone, it's gone and there's no bringing it back. Robert Strada and I have a mutual friend, Donna Sessa. Donna and Andrew Sessa in Quogue who bought the Foster House. It was built about 0, and they renovated that house. And if you want to see what Mr. Hedges is proposing, you should really go see their house. Or go to East Hampton by the pond there, where they saved those beautiful saltboxes. There's a house up in on North Haven on
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC Ferry Road, on the right-hand side, built in 0. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: I don't mean to cut you off, but we -- MR. ZEIGLER: No, cut me off, because I'll keep going. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: I think your statement reveals your passion. MR. ZEIGLER: Did I answer your question? CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Yeah. Both of your passion and your continuing interest in this home. MR. ZEIGLER: Thank you. I appreciate your time. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Okay. Anyone else here who wants to add to that? I think that maybe I will go back and forth, and first hear from anyone -- well, first, does anyone on the Board have any questions for Mr. Kriegsman or Mr. Hedges? MEMBER THAYER: Yeah, I have a question. Have you had any vision of
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC moving the house back and adding your structures, your accessory buildings, your basement and doing all that, instead of restoring the house you have where it is and building another house? MR. KRIEGSMAN: Just so I understand your question. Are you asking is the thought about adding onto the existing structure? MEMBER THAYER: No. Restoring the house and moving it back on that location to conform with the zoning laws that we have now? MR. HEDGES: Actually, AHRB addressed that point. We did propose to move it to bring it more to compliance. They recommended that, oh, this is where the house has been. They want, if you believe, it's important for the character of the house as well as the community that it stays by the road where, of course, the horse block out front is actually in the public right-of-way, for that matter, before
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC 0 there was actually zoning and public right-of way. And the Board feels that's an important component also, and a different issue as far as licensing agreement or something of that nature to retain that look and feel. Does that answer your question? MEMBER THAYER: So they recommended not to move the house back? MR. HEDGES: Right. MR. KRIEGSMAN: And I would just add to that, that, you know, to the extent that we're submitting that this house is part of the community. It's part of the community up on the road and will continue to be with what we're proposing, and I believe it's consistent with what's been done in similar cases. MEMBER THAYER: So the next question would be: Would you be willing to moving it back and restore it and add on your accessory buildings, conforming with the Village? MR. HEDGES: I don't -- I think the
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC short answer to that is it's best to leave it alone like it is because that's the way it has been. I don't think we need it to accomplish what it is we need to accomplish. MEMBER THAYER: Well, you said you're going to restore the whole building as-is. MR. HEDGES: Well, part of it is removing the "L" in the back of the house, taking it back to the th century. So we're actually proposing to remove a substantial amount of square footage, approximately 00 feet, off the back of the house on there, which is probably 0s construction. That's the nearest we can date it from the architecture interior. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Okay. Anyone here wish to speak in opposition of this application? MR. MARGOLIN: Yes, I do. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Okay. Introduce yourself and the location of your home.
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC MS. MARGOLIN: My name is Linda Margolin. I'm an attorney from MargolinBesunder at 00 Old Nichols Road, Islandia, New York. I'm here on behalf of the property owner of the lot immediately to the rear, Sunnybrook, LLC. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: When you say immediately to the rear, can you be more specific? MS. MARGOLIN: Yes. The Deacon David Hedges house sits on a three-point-something acre lot, which is part of a two-lot subdivision. Immediately behind it is an open farm field, at the present owned by Sunnybrook, LLC. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: So you're here on behalf of the owner of the vacant lot -- MS. MARGOLIN: Immediately to the rear. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: -- immediately to the rear. Is the owner of that vacant lot also own other adjacent property?
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC MS. MARGOLIN: No. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: No other property? Not the property north -- MS. MARGOLIN: No. Sunnybrook is the owner and Sunnybrook doesn't own any other property. So the first thing I wanted to bring to your attention is that the application before you, essentially, is incomplete. It's incomplete because the applicant has failed to give you so many things that would enable you to determine whether or not these variances are warranted and necessary falling under Village Law (b), the second criterion: Whether the benefit sought can be achieved by some method feasible for the applicant to pursue, other than an area variance. So the application that we got in the mail includes this site plan, a survey by David Saskas which shows the existing Deacon David Hedges house with the additions still in place that they
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC apparently intend to remove, I'm not sure; a proposed two-story house, sort of towards the middle of the lot; and then a tennis court in the rear, which is indicated is sunken, but there's no indication that there's a noise barrier. And that's only set 0-feet and change off the rear lot line. But what you don't have, essentially, are the building plans that were submitted to the building inspector. They weren't made any of part of this application. And because they weren't made part of this application, although we were able to come to the Village and look at them, we weren't able to get any copies of them of them to study them carefully. But without those building plans, you can't actually tell what the applicant proposes to do, either to the Deacon David Hedges House or why they need the additional gross floor area or what they say their main residence is.
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC Let me start out with, we're not opposed to the preservation of the Deacon David Hedges House, we just don't think this is the only feasible method. So, for instance, you have an application for a height variance, but we have no idea how that application for a height variance was measured. If this is truly an accessory structure, then the height should be measured from the top of the chimneys. We don't know whether it was measured from the top of the chimneys or whether it was measured from the ridge line. You don't have any elevations showing what the height was measured from, and what the reason is for all the square footage that you want to put between these two dwellings, you can't tell that either because we don't know what the interior appointments are supposed to be. But let me step back a little and tell you what I think the issues are here, in terms of the variances that are
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC required that haven't been applied for. So to begin with, this particular proposal violates both -(b)()(c), with respect to the total amount of floor area, and it also violates the separate subsection of - that limits roof accessory structures at,0 square feet for this particular lot. There's no application for a variance on the limitation on roof accessory structures. There's also no application for a setback variance for what this will become, an accessory structure, which is 0 feet from the lot line. In addition, this is the kind of accessory structure which is not permitted in the front yard at all. So the front yard is measured from the roof line of the principal dwelling and this accessory structure falls within that regard. In addition, you have Pyramid Law. And while there are no elevations that
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC show us, I think it's probably fair to assume that this accessory structure with a height that I believe is probably more like feet, is sitting feet from the lot line; and therefore, probably violates the Pyramid Law as well, that's -. As I mentioned, they also appear to require an area variance for the setback on the tennis court. And the application for the height variance appears to me to be deficient, without elevation you can't tell. There is also, on the Saskas drawing they show a pool house. There's no application here for an accessory coverage for a roof structure that includes the pool house. It only includes the main dwelling and what they say is going to be a reduced-in-size accessory of the Deacon David Hedges house. Let me turn to something that's more significant. What the applicant is
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC proposing to do is to renovate the Deacon David Hedges House so it becomes habitable. And what you're going to have -- that's what Mr. Hedges said. And, in fact, the building plans indicate that this house will be completely renovated, that the estimate on the construction costs that they put in front of the AHRB for approximately $.-million includes, I think, a $,000 allowance for appliances, extensive retro-fitting to make it essentially a modern dwelling on the inside. So it's going to become a habitable dwelling, and your zoning code does not allow two dwellings on the same lot. Your zoning code does not allow two uses on the same lot, unless one is agriculture. So this is not really going to be an accessory structure, this is going to be an application as it is, for two dwellings on the same lot. The Village has never done this. There -- I've
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC looked at all of the Zoning Board decisions that were referenced in the AHRB letter for resolution, and every one of those does not involve a similar circumstance. In the ones where an historic home was going to be renovated so that it became a dwelling, it was attached by a basement-level passage way by what I'll call the new house so that functionally they were all one dwelling. That's not what the applicant proposes here and it's certainly is an alternative thing to, just as they could actually add on to the back of this dwelling as well. So we have with us a historical restoration expert who is going to speak about the feasibility of other alternatives. But there's no application for you for a use variance and the applicant needs a use variance in order to move this application forward. So I don't think that this
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC 0 application is complete. I don't think it's ready for this Board's consideration. It's missing all of the variances the applicant will need in order to move forward with the project that's outlined in the survey. And I respectfully urge that you either need to adjourn this and allow the applicant to make plannory application that covers all aspects of their project or else you need to deny it. I'm going to introduce Robert Strada and ask him to speak to the Board. MR. STRADA: Maybe I'll just sit. Robert Strada, I'm the managing member of Strada Baxter Design/Build which is a historic restoration company that's worked on historic buildings from Montauk to Quogue for a long time. I'm also, however, the unpaid executive director of a not-for-profit, Peconic Historic Preservation, Inc. And the mission of the Peconic Historic
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC Preservation is to, indeed, endeavor to preserve our historic building environment, of which the Deacon Hedges House is a remarkable example. But I don't have to tell you that, you already know that. So what I would like to address is some of the things that you may or may not be aware of. One of the guiding principals that we use in restoring historic buildings, either for a town or village government or for private owners, is something called the secretary of the interior standards for the preservation of historic buildings. This is something you can easily research. But the secretary of the interior standards are the guidelines that the federal government established back in when they created the national trust. So when you look at these guidelines, they talk about using light/kind (sic) materials and methods in which you can actually replace
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC components that have aged and are in need of replacement. One of the -- one of the remarkable things about this particular house, and it sort of -- after listening to what you were having to say, and what you were saying, one of the guiding principals that the secretary of the interior standards and the National Park Service recommend is if you have a historic structure, something like this on its original site, on the original foundation, they urge you to keep it right where it is. They don't want to see it moved. Once it's moved, it has less of a historic value. It's not monetary, it's just in terms of if you were to apply for a -- if you were to put this on the National Trust, if you were to register this building, it would probably not qualify because it had been moved. But it qualifies today because of exactly where it is. So that's something you should be aware of in
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC making this decision. Keeping it where it is is really important for the history of the structure. Regarding the -- regarding the structure itself. I haven't been inside the building, I've only kind of curiously peeked through the windows, it is an absolute -- I think Peter said -- it's an absolute gem of a building. Understanding that this structure, with the 0th century appendages removed, is a much smaller building. And again, I'm not -- I'm not questioning this three million dollar estimate to restore the historic structure, but that just seems like an enormous amount of money to restore the original house. The other thing I'm hearing in the room is this business of this second house that's going to get built on the property. I recall that on Sagaponack Road there was a similar discussion that was had that led to this installation of a sub-surface connector, where the
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC historic building, beautifully done, made room for a new structure, but it was all considered one dwelling. And I think because of the nature of the historic building, this same design approach is something that you should consider. The reality is that -- again, I'm not trying to design it, but I'm just saying, the reality is that you would be able to have this unique, in-tact, historic building, and any addition wouldn't necessarily have to be put onto the historic structure. Now, that said, historic structures are expanded all the time and I'd like to site, as one example, Main Street in East Hampton Village, it's right on the pond. So Main Street was built in. It's the third oldest dwelling in -- it's a saltbox -- third oldest building in East Hampton Village. Today -- or in 0, Aymar Embury bought the building. Now, Embury is a noted New York State architect. Most of
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC his notoriety is related to the work that he's done for New York State, including with Robert Moses. But his local recognition stems from the fact that he was designing Guild Hall. So when he was designing Guild Hall, he wanted a place to live. So he bought this historic building in 0. He was the first one, long before zoning, to put an addition on this building, did a very nice job, did not destroy a historic structure. And today, an addition has been put on to replace the Embury addition while all the time restoring an original saltbox. So here, as they say on the National Trust website, a new addition to a historic building can be done and it conforms to their standard one, in which the actual new structure is applied to the historic building. What you've approved and what you've done in the past on Sagaponack Road lends itself, though, really very
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC nicely to have this sub-surface connector that gives you the opportunity of restoring the historic structure to the secretary of the interior standards for the preservation of historic buildings and have this new addition of a 0th century dwelling. MR. HEDGES: I'm sorry to interrupt. MR. STRADA: Not at all, go ahead. MR. HEDGES: No part of our proposal contemplates building onto the old house. MR. STRADA: I understand. MR. HEDGES: That's not part of it. That never has been. We agree we should leave it alone in this position. MR. STRADA: Thank you. I don't want to -- I'm going to attempt to address -- CHAIRMAN MEISEL: I'll give you a chance to speak again if you want to take a break. MR. STRADA: Yeah. I want to
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC address what the plan is going to be as far as two homes on one lot. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: And maybe we should take a break because my memory at this stage in my life is not so hot. I have so many questions to ask about what's already been said. MR. STRADA: Sure. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: And if I wait until the end of the presentation, I'm going to forget. So why don't we take a moment to see if there are other questions on the Board to what has been said so far. MEMBER THAYER: Yes, I have a question. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Go ahead. MEMBER THAYER: You're referencing the one on Main and Sagg Road. MR. STRADA: Yes. MEMBER THAYER: That house was moved from its original site back to the right, which would have been to the west. Just for everybody to understand
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC what happened there. MR. STRADA: Can I comment on that? MEMBER THAYER: Sure. MR. STRADA: That's a unique building lot, in that, you have double setbacks. You've got the setback from Sagaponack and from Sagg. So that lot offered some very unique challenges. This lot is not like that in the sense that the obvious place to put an addition on this building or to put a sub-surface connected addition onto this building is to the north of it. MEMBER THAYER: Right. MR. STRADA: In a way that it really frames the historic house and embellishes the historic house. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: I'm glad to see that there is as much agreement among everyone, both opponents and supporters of the application, that we don't have to deal with the importance, the historical importance, the aesthetic importance of this property.
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC I think both of you, whether you're in support of the application or not, agree that it's preferable that the house remain in its current location because that's part of the wholeness, the integrity of it including the horse block. So given that, since the Zoning Law is written for an entire community, it is designed to protect the Character of the community, as is our comprehensive master plan, which the Zoning Law supports, and since properties are unique, you recognize that the purpose of the Zoning Board and the granting of variances is to recognize that the purpose of variances and the Zoning Board is to elevate the substance of what the law is intended to accomplish over procedures such as arbitrary setbacks. Would you agree that if the integrity of the house, which everyone agrees is to be preserved, and should be
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC 0 preserved at that location, then it would be logical for us to grant the variance for the front yard setback in order to be able to preserve the house at that location? MR. STRADA: Why do you need -- MS. MARGOLIN: It's just -- CHAIRMAN MEISEL: I'm addressing the question to Mr. Strada first. MS. MARGOLIN: I just -- I understand that, but I just want to make a point so that you understand our position. If this remains part of a principal dwelling, we understand that the house needs to remain in its current position, but when it's function is changed and it becomes an accessory -- CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Let me address that. Okay. You have characterized this as an application to have a second dwelling on the lot. MS. MARGOLIN: Correct. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: The application,
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC clearly, is for it to become an accessory structure and not a second dwelling on the lot. Now, while we all may agree that preserving the integrity of the house, as Mr. Strada himself points out, it's better preservation would be as a dwelling rather than a pretension accessory structure. And you suggested that that would require a use variance because we can't have two dwellings on the same lot. I believe a proposal was made to sub-divide this parcel, a small piece, perhaps half an acre which would contain this house which would allow it to be preserved and retained as an historic residential dwelling that people could actually reside in and cherish. And that would merely require the consent of the Southampton Planning Board to override a previous proscription on further subdividing this parcel, which is part of a previous subdivision. And
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC that someone, perhaps your client, perhaps not, opposed the Town of Southampton's granting the subdivision of the property so this house could be preserved in its original context as a dwelling, which would, in my view at least, and I don't know that I speak for everyone, be much more valuable than merely as an accessory structure so that we have a facade. In addition -- in addition -- and then I'll allow you to respond -- the suggestion here has been made to use a tunnel in order to connect the dwelling, a new dwelling, a new large dwelling, to the existing structure so that we could comply with a technical zoning law which doesn't allow two dwellings on the lot. Of course, the result would be to have that exist as a dwelling. But Mr. Strada, as the architectural historian who about siting and location -- MR. STRADA: Right.
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC CHAIRMAN MEISEL: -- would it or would it not be preferable -- MR. STRADA: I was siting the National Trust. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Yes, but I'm going to ask you a specific question. MR. STRADA: Sure, right. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Which would be preferable: To connect a new large modern house to the rear of this house by a tunnel, or to create a 0-foot separation between the new structure and the existing structure which would also be shielded by landscaping so that the new house would not stand -- MR. STRADA: I don't understand why it has to be either/or. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: I'm just saying, if there were -- MR. STRADA: But there are so many ways you can do this. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: But hang on one second. MR. STRADA: Sure.
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Because you have spoken on an alternative to the proposal. MR. STRADA: Excuse me. An alternative that I've already seen done in this community. That's the only reason why I brought it up. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Yes. The alternative was done in the community, but we have a.-acre parcel. MR. STRADA: Yes, I know that. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: It's a large parcel which allows for a large variety of siting of structures which would still comply with the required setbacks. MR. STRADA: Right. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: And which would provide a better separation between a new structure and an existing structure. Where the tunnel is used, perhaps the specifics of those properties would not allow for an adequate separation between the new structure and the old structure. MR. STRADA: You know, I think
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC that's a complete arbitrary and aesthetic decision that should be developed. I don't have an opinion, a specific opinion, about that. MR. KRIEGSMAN: I just want to respond -- MS. MARGOLIN: Wait. MR. KRIEGSMAN: No, you've spoken twice. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Wait, wait, wait. Everyone will a have a chance to speak. I'll let Ms. Margolin respond first. MS. MARGOLIN: Thank you. Your statement that only the Southampton Planning Board had to agree to a subdivision was not a correct statement of the law. The covenant that was imposed on both these lots when they were created barred further subdivision of both lots. And under the law, in that circumstance, the other lot owners in the subdivision have to consent to a modification of that covenant. So we sued the Southampton Planning
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC Board because we didn't get any notice of the application, and they didn't seek our consent. And that lawsuit was settled by the Southampton Planning Board agreeing that if such an application came before them, they would notify us and give us an opportunity to be heard. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: And if that application were properly made upon notice, would you oppose that? MS. MARGOLIN: It depends what the application is. I mean, we -- I will tell you that the applicant in front of you has, since that time, never come back to us to discuss alternative solutions here, and so we're not -- we can't force them to, but -- but I will tell you that the purpose of our lawsuit was to force us to have an opportunity to decide whether or not the plan, you know, suited us as well. Because my client, which has a lot that is even bigger, is similarly barred from
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC subdividing that lot. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Okay. So what I would like to hear, and I think this is constructive because perhaps there will be an opportunity to re-explore a subdivision of the lot so that a more constructive use of the preserved house, which everyone seems to agree should be saved, can be made rather than trying to gerrymander a legal structure and some sort of a tunnel in order to accomplish the same result, an inferior result, I might say. So one of the things I would like to get to is what your client's objection and objective is. Assuming that this house, at the front of the property, the historic Hedges house, with the additions removed, partly because they're not part of the historic structure and partly to try to mitigate the degree to which the accessory structure would exceed the code. If that house is to remain there and is
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC going to be there regardless, what is it that your client is concerned about with respect to the portion of the development, which presumably is closer to their own property? MS. MARGOLIN: We believe that the development allowing two dwellings on the same lot, which is the current application you have in front of you, I mean, not only has Mr. Hedges said that the purpose is to make that habitable -- let me finish, I'm sorry -- but also we can see from the plans that it's going to continue to be a structure that's designed and used for sleeping and cooking, which is your definition -- CHAIRMAN MEISEL: If the variance is granted, the variance would be granted in accordance with the application, that it will not be a dwelling, it would be an accessory structure. Now, I can't guarantee that people who apply for variances for
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC non-sleeping, non-cooking areas above their garages and in their pool houses, we're not going to go around and police every -- excuse me -- we're not going to police every property. Perhaps the building inspector, if he receives complaints or gets wind of people who are violating the law, then we do have means of enforcing the law. And it may be difficult to do so. But we will not be granting a variance for two dwellings on a single lot. MS. MARGOLIN: Well, one of the reasons that I said to you myself is that the application is incomplete. You don't have the building plans in front of you. We have looked at them. The building plans propose that the Deacon David Hedges house, upon its renovation, will have four bedrooms, I don't remember how many baths, a dining room, a kitchenette, so on and so forth. So it clearly continues to be a building that is not -- doesn't fall within your
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC 0 accessory structure definition, it falls within the definition of a dwelling. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: I understand your concern, but as I just said -- MS. MARGOLIN: But you're -- CHAIRMAN MEISEL: -- we're not approving plans. And our decision today could not be final in any event. MS. MARGOLIN: The other -- CHAIRMAN MEISEL: We are approving bulk. We are approving setbacks. We are approving variances. That does not approve specific plans, which by its terms, must go back to the Architectural Historical Review Board for approval and perhaps back to us for a further variance, if necessary. MS. MARGOLIN: Well, Chairman Meisel, when you had the application for Sagaponack Road in front of you, the application that was ultimately withdrawn, you commented to the applicant, you commented to the applicant that applicant hadn't given
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC you the building plans and other documents from which you could actually assess their need for the dimensional -- FAR variances that they were seeking. And you're in exactly the same situation here. In addition, when this Board approved the renovation of a barn on a lot that already had a house, and you allowed someone to put in two play rooms and two bathrooms and something else, you included a covenant that allowed the building inspector to go in and inspect it at any time to make sure it wasn't being used for habitable purposes. But here, we have the applicant, the principal of the applicant who stood up and said the purpose of this was to make it habitable. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Okay. We haven't rendered a decision. We may not have a complete application. Your points are well taken. And in the event the variance is granted, then perhaps a
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC similar covenant would be included about the right of the building inspector to inspect. However, I'm going to let you take a break for a moment, you can come back again, but Mr. Kriegsman is champing at the bit to respond. MR. KRIEGSMAN: Thank you. And as the Chairman noted, there's a lot of people here who want to speak because there's a lot of issues. So I just wanted to respond to some of the things that are said before we move on and cut through, frankly, a little bit of the smoke and mirrors. Ms. Margolin was asked a very direct question by the Chairman, who she represents. The answer was a farm field in the name of an LLC. He asked her if there was an adjoining owner and the answer was no. And I respectfully submit a farm field in the name of an anonymous LLC did not hire a lawyer from up the Island to come here and repose this application. Larry and Rebecca
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC Grafstein, the neighbors, are opposing this application; they opposed the last one. And I respectfully submit to you that it's selfish and it's greedy to have New York City residents who apparently don't want to have construction noise going on next door, do every single thing they can to prevent this from moving forward. The terms of our application follow everything under the code. There's an application submitted to the building inspector, there was a turndown letter, it was signed by Mr. Woudsma, November 0. It identified the variances that were needed. That's why we're here. That's what we've addressed. As far as Mr. Strada, who is concerned, who I also don't think is here on an unpaid basis. MR. STRADA: Actually, I am. MR. KRIEGSMAN: Okay. Well, respectfully, you have totally misrepresented the secretary of the
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC interior standard, which if you read them in current municipalities to give accommodations to recognize economic realities and to be able to preserve historic structures. So the question is not how Mr. Strada or Ms. Margolin's anonymous clients would like to have this preserved, but the reality of how the Hedges Family can afford to preserve it. And that's what the secretary of the interior standards encourage you to do. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Let me ask you a question to that point. MR. KRIEGSMAN: Sure. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Mr. Hedges suggested that it would cost in excess of two million dollars to restore this house to habitable conditions. MR. KRIEGSMAN: Right. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: This is provocative to Ms. Margolin who is claiming that this is not going to be preserved as an accessory building but
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC would be as a dwelling. Do you have an estimate of what it would cost to bring the house into good historic preserved condition as an accessory structure and not as a principal dwelling? MR. HEDGES: I can address that. And I don't thank Ms. Margolin for taking my words out of context. When I meant habitable, I meant merely a building which has modern heating and air conditioning systems, plumbing systems, electrical systems. All of these things need to be done. Floors, structure, the house has to be lifted up and then have a decent foundation put under it, otherwise it's going to continue to collapse towards the center as these old houses invariably do that were built in the th century. Any number of things. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: So those expenditures are required without the regard, whether it is a accessory structure or a dwelling?
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC MR. HEDGES: Exactly. To say habitable meaning to be able to walk in the house and actually sit down at any time of the year and not be driven out by mold, not be driven out by vermin, not be driven out by peeling lead paint. All of these things which are present in this house; so habitable. To take that word and to twist it to say I want two dwelling units, is false and wrong and I think you know it. So let's just make it clear. MR. KRIEGSMAN: Just very briefly. I just want to add to that. This house has been in Mr. Hedges family for generations. Mr. Hedges has worked hard at a great expense of his time and money to figure out a way, not just to preserve it now, but to keep this house for future generations, which the whole Village will benefit from. There are a host of considerations that go into that, that go beyond just what the renovations are.
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Obviously, in connection with this application, regardless of the ownership of the property, ultimately, any covenants agreed upon to preserve this house in connection with any variances, are going to run with the land and be binding on anyone. But I am curious to know the present intentions since the house has been in the Hedges Family for so long. And I understand families change, people move, et cetera, but what is the current intention? This house is going to be built; is that on speculation? Is that for a member of the family? Is that for yourself? MR. HEDGES: Let me address some of the personal aspects of that. The short answer is that we don't know exactly how it's going to turn out because we don't where we're going on this yet. We're trying to get a path forward which is focused on preserving the historic house and giving us the ability to do so.
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC As the Board already mention, we started off with a possible subdivision, which -- CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Was opposed. MR. HEDGES: Ms. Grafstein opposed. And that was intended to then allow us, possibly, the Hedges, to then be able to keep the house under separate ownership, okay? That was taken off the table. Okay? CHAIRMAN MEISEL: But it sounds like it wasn't taken off the table without the possibility of being resurrected after certain considerations. MR. HEDGES: Well, yeah, of course. CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Do you think that that would be a better solution? If we were able to have subdivided lots so it would not be two dwellings on a single lot, which would then also enable a separation of ownership between the new house and the existing house? MR. HEDGES: Here's the thing,
0 0 February th, 0 Deacon David Hedges LLC Larry Grafstein, who was an investment banker for the Bank of Canada and Rebecca Grafstein of Sunnybrook Farm, LLC, have told us that they're going to fight us tooth-and-nail on whatever we do, simply because they like to have the view as they drive down the driveway. They live in the house at the northwest corner -- CHAIRMAN MEISEL: Northeast corner? MR. HEDGES: Northeast corner, I'm sorry. My mother sold them the lot that Sunnybrook represents. My parents sold them the lot that they are now residing at. The reason that they sold them the lot was just so that they could preserve the old house. My parents were not people of means. So they sold off lots so they could put a roof on the house, so they could re-shingle it, so they could put plumbing in it, so they could afford the heat bill. They have spilled treasure over this house for 0 years, and this is what's gotten us today. And