Transcript of teachings by Khen Rinpoche Geshe Chonyi on the Heart Sutra and Stages of the Path (the Six Perfections) The root text, Middle Length Lam-Rim, by Lama Tsongkhapa, translated by Philip Quarcoo, FPMT, Inc., May 2012, is indented. All page references refer to the root text, unless otherwise stated. Where applicable, page numbers of corresponding sections in the Lam Rim Chen Mo (LRCM) are indicated in footnotes; they refer to The Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path to Enlightenment, Volume 2, by Tsong-kha-pa, translated by The Lamrim Chenmo Translation Committee, Snow Lion Publications, 2004. 22 August 2013 Question & answer & mock debate. Topic: Are the perfections practised on the ordinary paths? Question: In relation to the practice of the perfections of generosity, there was a discussion in an earlier lesson that the practice of the perfection starts on the path of accumulation upwards, even though the surpassing practice of the perfection of generosity only appears on the first ground. Although the lam-rim text indicates clearly what qualifies as the completion of the different perfections, when it comes to the perfections on the different grounds, there seems to be something beyond the completion of those perfections. 1. I am wondering whether a perfection has to be conjoined with the direct perception of emptiness for it to be a fully qualified perfection? 2. With regard to the perfections related to the different grounds, there seems to be something beyond being a perfection. But once a perfection is completed and perfected, what can there be beyond that? Can Khen Rinpoche please clarify this point. Ven Gyurme: What is the criterion for being a perfection of, say, generosity? Student 1: This is clearly stated in the text. In lesson 13, there was a discussion regarding the perfection of generosity on the first ground. In that lesson, Khen Rinpoche reiterated that the path perfection of wisdom is not the direct perception of wisdom. It is the wisdom realising emptiness conjoined with bodhicitta. Just as the practice of the perfection of wisdom exists on the ordinary paths, likewise the practice of the other perfections starts from the path of accumulation. So what is happening with the perfections on their respective grounds? It seems as if there is something else happening with that perfection that is beyond the completion of perfection on their respective grounds. Ven Gyurme: To summarise what you are asking: At which ground or level is the perfection of generosity completed? In order to be a perfection of generosity, must it be conjoined with the wisdom directly perceiving emptiness? Page 1 of 12
Is the practice of the perfection of generosity the same as achieving the perfection of generosity? Is there a difference between the perfection of generosity and the completion of the perfection of generosity? Answer: With regard to the perfection of wisdom, there is a position that states that, in order to be a perfection of wisdom, it has to be a wisdom that directly realises emptiness. However, there is another school of thought that says that this is not necessary. There are these two positions. You can see for yourself which position is better and should be adopted. Let us say you take the position that the perfection of wisdom is not necessarily a wisdom directly perceiving emptiness. It follows then that the practice of the perfection of wisdom exists on the ordinary paths such as the Mahayana path of accumulation. If you were to say that the practice of the perfection of wisdom exists on the Mahayana path of accumulation, then it would be all right to say that the practice of the six perfections exists on the Mahayana path of accumulation. There is nothing wrong with saying that. If it is a mind realising emptiness, is it necessarily a perfection of wisdom? The answer is no, because the wisdom directly realising emptiness in the continuum of an arhat (or foe destroyer) is not a perfection of wisdom. Why? Because that wisdom is not conjoined with bodhicitta. This means that, in order to be a perfection of wisdom, it must be a mind realising emptiness that is conjoined with bodhicitta. That being the case a mind realising emptiness must be conjoined with bodhicitta to be a perfection of wisdom you can likewise apply this to generosity, ethics, patience, joyous effort and concentration (or meditative stabilisation). For example, generosity is not necessarily a perfection of generosity. Ethics is not necessarily a perfection of ethics. It is just generosity or ethics on its own but when they are conjoined with bodhicitta, they become the perfection of generosity, the perfection of ethics and so forth. By extension, this logic should apply to the rest of the perfections. Student 1: Then what about the completion of that perfection? We are still practising and practising on the various paths to the point where the perfection is completed. Does that mean the perfection of generosity is completed on the first ground, the perfection of ethics is completed on the second ground and so forth? Is it like that? Answer: You know that there is a perfection that is related to each of the ten bodhisattva grounds. There is the perfection of generosity on the first ground. What that means is that on the first ground, the bodhisattva achieves the surpassing practice of the perfection of generosity. This is what is mentioned in the text. On the second ground, the bodhisattva achieves the surpassing practice of ethics. The practice of ethics that he has achieved on the second ground surpasses the practice of ethics that was present on the first ground. This is how it works on all the subsequent grounds. The question then is this: if the bodhisattva achieves the surpassing practice of the Page 2 of 12
perfection of generosity on the first ground, does that mean that he has achieved a completion of the perfection of generosity? That is what we need to think about. EQUATING COMPLETION OF A PERFECTION WITH ITS SURPASSING PRACTICE My personal opinion is that probably there is nothing wrong with saying that the perfection of generosity has reached its pinnacle on the first ground. Likewise, on the second ground, we could say that the bodhisattva has achieved the completion of the perfection of ethics. We are saying this from the perspective of equating the achievement of the surpassing practice of a particular perfection to the completion of that perfection, i.e., achieving the surpassing practice of a perfection is the same as the completion of a perfection. This is how it can be explained. Therefore on the first ground, the bodhisattva achieves the completion of the perfection of generosity. What is the fallacy if you were to take this position? EQUATING PERFECTION WITH ITS COMPLETION If you were to understand the word, perfection, to mean completion, then you could say that in order to achieve the perfection of generosity, you need the wisdom directly perceiving emptiness. This is to say that the perfection of generosity does not exist before the first ground. When the bodhisattva achieves the first ground, the bodhisattva achieves the perfection of generosity. This is if you were to take perfection here to mean, literally, perfected or completed. Is there any difference between what I just said and what was said earlier? Khen Rinpoche: What I said earlier and what I m saying now is totally different. Do you get that? (Students nod). Khen Rinpoche: OK. That is good. If you get it, that is the point. This is what analysis and discussion is about. It is a debate. You can argue, No, the perfection of generosity does not exist before the first ground because one must have the wisdom directly realising emptiness first before one can achieve the perfection of generosity. In the root text, Lama Tsongkhapa states: The completion of the perfection of generosity does not depend on having eliminated the poverty of migrating beings by giving away to others substances to be given. Rather it becomes the perfection of generosity through destroying the grasping of miserliness and thoroughly completing one s familiarization with the mind of giving to others along with the effects of giving. (Page 175) He says that you perfect generosity after you have destroyed the grasping of Page 3 of 12
miserliness (or stingy clingingingness). This states clearly that the perfection of generosity does not exist in the continuum of an ordinary being. This is why analysis and discussion is so important. It is not enough just to hear something and think, That is it. This is the one and only position. You have to compare what is mentioned in the root text, what is mentioned in the philosophical texts and so forth. Then you put them together and see for yourself before you make up your mind. Khen Rinpoche: Are you getting what I m trying to do here? POSITION A: REFUTING THAT THERE IS THE PERFECTION OF GENEROSITY ON THE ORDINARY PATHS. (Khen Rinpoche addresses Student 1): Now someone asks you, Is there the perfection of generosity on the ordinary paths? What are you going to say? Khen Rinpoche: If somebody were to ask you such a question, what are you going to say? You cannot keep quiet. You must say something. Is there the perfection of generosity on the path of accumulation? Yes or no? Student 1: Maybe Khen Rinpoche: Yes or No does not matter. You cannot say Maybe! You must say something. You must be decisive. If you say, Maybe, then there is no need to debate. You can say, Yes. You can say, No. You must confidently say, Yes! In the very beginning part, if your answer is, Maybe yes, maybe no, then there is no fun in debating. You must be strong from the very beginning. Then there is fun in fighting. If you are weak from the outset, then there is no fun in fighting. When you have to fight, your tone must be firm. You must be ready. So you want to fight? When you debate, you must analyse. This is the way to do it. You have to take a position and then you move forward from there. If nobody wants to take a position, then I have nothing else to say. When you debate, you have to hold on to one position. Then you defend that position. You cannot hold on to two positions. Student 1: The answer is yes. But I have another question. Khen Rinpoche: It is not about yes or no. It is more important to be sure why you are taking a position. Make sure you know why. It doesn t matter whether it is right or wrong. You have your reasons that you have to stand by and defend. That is the important thing. Student 1: My question is regarding Khen Rinpoche giving another point of view Page 4 of 12
whereby the perfection of generosity is perfected or completed after emptiness is realised directly. Khen Rinpoche: What was your answer? Yes? I have already given the overview. Now I am asking the questions and you answer them. You don t talk about other things. Student 1: My answer was yes. Khen Rinpoche: So now you hold on to your answer for 10 minutes. Why do you say that there is the perfection of generosity on the Mahayana path of accumulation? This exercise is not just between the two of us. All of you should participate. For those who agree that there is a perfection of generosity on the path of accumulation, do you know why? You must know why when you say, Yes. Why is there the perfection of generosity on the Mahayana path of accumulation? When you respond to a question during debate, your response has to address only what is covered in the question. You cannot bring in other auxiliary topics to the discussion. Student 1: To answer Khen Rinpoche s question, there is the practice of the perfection of generosity on the ordinary paths because the activities of the bodhisattvas on the the ordinary paths are the perfections. So during the ordinary paths, when they are ordinary bodhisattvas, yes, we will have to say that they are practising the perfection of generosity. Khen Rinpoche: You are not answering the question. Why? Student 1: Isn t the practice of generosity conjoined with bodhicitta? Just saying I am practising the perfection of generosity does not mean I have completed the practice of the perfection of generosity. Khen Rinpoche: If it is a perfection of generosity, is it not necessary for stingy clingingness to be destroyed? Khen Rinpoche: Has the ordinary bodhisattva on the Mahayana path of accumulation abandoned stingy clingingness? Student 1: Not yet. Khen Rinpoche: You have to think. If you say, No, you are contradicting yourself. Now you have to say Yes. Student 1: I have no choice but to say, Yes, right? Page 5 of 12
Khen Rinpoche: You have no choice? You do have a choice. So what do you say? Student 1 (emphatically): Yes. Khen Rinpoche: Why do you say, Yes? In order for them to have stingy clingingness, there must be a cause. The main cause of stingy clingingness is attachment. Do the bodhisattvas on the Mahayana path of accumulation have attachment? Do the ordinary bodhisattvas have attachment to their own bodies? Khen Rinpoche: It is not taught that the practice of giving the body is for an ordinary bodhisattva or an ordinary person. These ordinary bodhisattvas have attachment to their bodies. They have miserliness. They have stingy clingingness. They have not destroyed their miserliness and stingy clingingness. If they have not destroyed their stingy clingingness, do they still have the perfection of generosity? Do you see the line of reasoning? This is an exercise for everyone. The ordinary bodhisattvas have not destroyed their stingy clingingness, isn t that so? (After further discussion, the debate starts again with Khen Rinpoche demonstrating how the opposing position that the perfections do exist on the ordinary paths can be argued). POSITION B: THAT THE PERFECTIONS DO EXIST ON THE ORDINARY PATHS Khen Rinpoche: If you say that there is no perfection of generosity on the ordinary paths, you are explicitly saying that the perfection of generosity is the same as the completion of the perfection of generosity. Khen Rinpoche: Now they are exactly the same. Isn t that so? Khen Rinpoche: It follows that, in the continuum of an ordinary bodhisattva on the Mahayana path of accumulation, there is no practice of any of the perfections including the perfection of wisdom. Student 1: No, there is not. Khen Rinpoche: This is for everyone. Everyone has to think. It follows that, on the first ground, all the six perfections are not in the continuum of the first ground bodhisattva. Page 6 of 12
Student 1: No. Khen Rinpoche: In the continuum of the first ground bodhisattva, the six perfections are not there? Khen Rinpoche: When the first ground bodhisattva practises the perfection of generosity, that practice of the perfection of generosity encompasses all the other perfections, doesn t it? Student 1: No. Khen Rinpoche: It is mentioned in the text that when the practice of the perfection of generosity is accompanied by all six perfections, it becomes extremely powerful. (Based on your position), it follows that the first ground bodhisattva do not have the practice of perfection of generosity that encompasses all the other perfections. If, on the first ground, the practice of the perfection of generosity is not accompanied by the other perfections, then there is no basis for saying that the practice of generosity becomes more powerful when it is accompanied by the other perfections. Student 1: I can t continue. I am stuck. If I am following my own line of argument, I would have to say no. Khen Rinpoche: So there is no basis for saying that there is a stronger practice of the perfection of generosity when it is accompanied by the other perfections. Khen Rinpoche: But Lama Tsongkhapa said that there is the practice of the perfection of generosity is stronger when it is accompanied by the other perfections. What exactly is Lama Tsongkhapa talking about if there is no such thing? Isn t there the practice of the perfection of wisdom on the path of accumulation and the path of preparation? In the Heart of the Perfection Wisdom Sutra, Shariputra asked Avalokiteshvara, How should one train in the perfection of wisdom? The perfection of wisdom is the mind realising emptiness. Avalokiteshvara replied, This is how you should train in the perfection of wisdom on the path of accumulation and the path of preparation. Therefore it is wrong to say that there isn t any practice of the perfections on the ordinary paths. Otherwise Avalokiteshvara should have just said, The practice of the perfection of wisdom starts from the first ground. Student 1: He was referring only to the practice of the perfection of wisdom. He wasn t talking about the other practices such as generosity, ethics and so forth. Page 7 of 12
Khen Rinpoche: Wasn t he talking about wisdom? Student 1: Yes, he was talking only about wisdom. But we are talking about generosity here. Khen Rinpoche: The practice of the perfection of wisdom is basically talking about the practice of the mind realising emptiness, isn t it? Student 1: Correct. Khen Rinpoche: In the Heart of the Perfection Wisdom Sutra, the perfection of wisdom is taken to be the mind realising emptiness. Based on that, it is asserted that there is the practice of the perfection of wisdom on the Mahayana path of accumulation and path of preparation. Khen Rinpoche: There is the practice of the perfections on the ordinary paths and there is the practice of the perfection of wisdom on the ordinary paths. Khen Rinpoche: The practice of perfection of wisdom exists in the continuum of ordinary bodhisattvas. So in order to achieve the perfection of wisdom, you need not be on the first ground. Khen Rinpoche: In order to possess a perfection, you need not be a superior. Khen Rinpoche: So there is no perfection of wisdom in the continuum of the bodhisattva on the path of accumulation? The bodhisattva on the path of accumulation does not have the perfection of wisdom? Student 1: No. Khen Rinpoche: What do you think? Does that bodhisattva have the perfection of wisdom or not? Student 1: That bodhisattva has the perfection of wisdom. Khen Rinpoche: You need not be a superior, right? Earlier you have already agreed one must be a superior being (to have a perfection). Now you say have the bodhisattva has the perfection of wisdom on the path of accumulation. Student 1: I am very flexible! ~~~~~~~~~~~ Page 8 of 12
Please understand that this exercise is not a waste of time at all. This is to show you how you can utilize your time during discussion. During a discussion, you usually have questions that you answer. You take a position. So it is not so much about saying, Yes or No. When someone says Yes or No, you should question in-depth, Why do you say this? Why do you say that? This is what discussion is all about. It is not simply taking out a piece of paper and writing yes or no. From what I have seen, most of you are contented with just writing yes or no. You do not think much about it. Many of you are comfortable with agreeing to what I have said in class that there is the practice of the perfections on the ordinary paths. But that understanding is not stable at all. Actually you have to know why you take such a position. You have to keep on questioning. Once you have sorted out all the different reasons, with that understanding, you will have greater certainty about your position. Then you know why you believe in something. One of the benefits is that you will never forget it. You will never forget your position. Khen Rinpoche: Once the fallacy of your position is pointed out to you, you will never forget. The point of debate is this: you really think you are right and someone comes along and squeezes your neck until you cannot breath. Then you will never forget. You probably get what I mean. It is not about squeezing the neck literally but when your opponent uses different reasons, this way and that way. You don t know where to go. Then you get some idea. So debate is like that. Student 1: May I clarify a point? Khen Rinpoche: There is no further clarification as I have already given you two views. Student 1: Is Lama Tsongkhapa of the view that the perfections are present on the ordinary paths? Based on the way Lama Tsongkhapa wrote the lam-rim, which view does he support? Khen Rinpoche: I don t know. You think about it. Student 2: There are ten grounds and there are ten perfections. Do the other four perfections 1 at the end exist on the ordinary paths? Khen Rinpoche: What if I were to say Yes. What would you say to that? This is an answer given in response to a question in debate. It is not a conclusion. Many of you always think that when I say, Yes, that is it and you just leave it at that. This is not the case and was never the case. 1 These are the perfections of method (7 th ground), prayer (8 th ground), power (9 th ground) and exalted wisdom (10 th ground). Page 9 of 12
Student 2: Does LamaTsongkhapa think that it is not important for him to include these as part of the perfections to be taught in the text? If you say, Yes, then why did Lama Tsongkhapa not teach them as part of the perfections to be practised? Then there should be ten perfections to be practised, not six. So Lama Tsongkhapa is not perfect. Khen Rinpoche: Now Swee Kim (name of Student 2) knows how to debate a little bit. Khen Rinpoche: Lama Tsongkhapa did explain them and explained them well. The compositions of Lama Tsongkhapa come up to a total of 18 volumes of which the Lam Rim Chen Mo is just one text. For example, there is an explanation of the other four perfections in his composition called The Golden Rosary that is a commentary on the Ornament of Clear Realisations. It is said clearly in the lam-rim that there isn t any bodhisattva practice that cannot be condensed into the six perfections. All the bodhisattva practices can be condensed into the six perfections. As such if you want to include the perfection of method, the perfection of prayer, the perfection of power and the perfection of exalted wisdom, these four perfections can be condensed into the perfection of wisdom. One has to know how these remaining four perfections are condensed into the perfection of wisdom. You have the remaining four perfections by expanding on the perfection of wisdom. Student 3: (1) How are the six or ten perfections transformed in the continuum of a buddha? (2) It was said that the continuum of a non-human is a suitable basis for the bodhisattva vows but not a suitable basis for the pratimoksha vows. How is it then that a non-human is able to take up the bodhisattva vows without having taken the pratimoksha vows? Khen Rinpoche: There are two bodies on the buddha ground: (1) the embodiment of truth or the truth body (the dharmakaya) and (2) the embodiment of form or form body (the rupakaya). They are the results. You have the two truths on the basis. You have method and wisdom on the path. The results are these two bodies. All the bodhisattva deeds can be condensed into the six perfections. The six perfections can be condensed into method and wisdom. The first five perfections are included under method. The last perfection, the perfection of wisdom, is included in the collection of wisdom. It is mentioned clearly in the teachings on the perfection vehicle that the practice of method results in the rupakaya, the form body, and the collection of wisdom results in the truth body. One accumulates merit by practising generosity, ethics, patience and so forth. The effect of this collection of merit is the form body. Through familiarity with the mind realising emptiness, one accumulates the collection of wisdom. By practising the perfection of generosity, one accumulates the collection of merit. Page 10 of 12
What is this collection of merit? This is something we need to think about. I would think it is a non-associated compositional factor, which is an impermanent phenomenon that is neither form nor consciousness. Can generosity, which is a consciousness, act as a substantial cause for a form body? This is the question. It was explained that the six perfections are all consciousnesses. For example, what is generosity? It is a generous attitude. That is a consciousness. What if we were to say that generosity cannot act as a substantial cause of the form body? Is it all right to say that the collection of merit that is accumulated through the practice of generosity can act as a cause of the form body? This is an extremely important point because when we are talking about achieving the result, the result is buddhahood, which consists of the two bodies, the form body and the truth body. These two bodies have their own substantial causes. In the perfection vehicle, the best explanation of what exactly is the cause of the form body is none other than the collection of merit. The superior bodhisattvas have a mental body, i.e., a body that is in the nature of mind. The tenth ground bodhisattva also has such a mental body but that mental body cannot proceed to enlightenment, i.e., it cannot transform into the form body of a buddha. Why is this so? Because the actualising cause for this mental body is the levels of predisposition of ignorance together with uncontaminated karma. So this is something we have to think about. This is the explanation of the perfection vehicle. According to the perfection vehicle, what is the substantial cause for the body of the next life? Does the consciousness of this life act as a substantial cause for the body of next life? The consciousness of this life definitely is a cause of the body of next life. The consciousness of this life is one of the causes for the body of next life but what exactly is the substantial cause of the body of the next life? Is it the karmic imprint or latency that is deposited on the mental continuum of a sentient being? Khen Rinpoche: What is the substantial cause? This is the question. So you see, it is not so straightforward. You really have to think about it. From the perspective of the Mahayana perfection vehicle, how is the accomplishment of the form body explained? They can only point to the collection of merit. This is all. But if you think about this, many questions arise. This means that the explanation of the perfection vehicle for achieving the form body is not very profound. It is not quite there yet. This is where tantra comes in and why tantra is so important. Tantra offers an explanation of the extremely subtle winds and the extremely subtle mind. Based on that, it explains after death, what are the substantial causes and cooperative conditions for the body and mind of the intermediate state being. It is only in tantra that you will find a coherent explanation of what is the substantial cause of a form body. This will come towards the end of the Basic Program where we will be looking at tantra. Page 11 of 12
Therefore it is important to study this in the future. When you have an overview of the general procedure of both sutra and tantra, whatever understanding you gain will not be ordinary but very special and different. In dependence on studying and learning these great treatises, even if you only get some rough understanding of the general procedure of sutra and tantra, this would still make your present life meaningful. All of us are extremely fortunate even to have just this small faith and interest in wanting to learn. While we still have some faith and interest in learning the teachings of the Buddha, you should grasp this opportunity and strive as much as possible in learning and analysing the teachings in order to leave as many imprints as possible in our minds. The more imprints we place there, then there is some hope that things will improve and become clearer from life to life. I mentioned a number of times that simply coming to class, merely listening to the teachings and merely reading the texts on your own, those activities alone make it quite difficult to learn anything. It is very important to think and analyse deeply whether through discussions or debate. This is very important because it is only through analysis and deep reflection that you come to gain clear understanding, firm conviction and very stable knowledge. This is what we need to do. We all have to do this. From my side, I would like to request and encourage you all to make this happen. If you have questions or something that you do not understand, you shouldn t feel embarrassed or shy to ask. If you don t understand, you must ask. I see that, most of the time, the students who are asking questions in class are those who have finished the first Basic Program. I don t see those who have just joined this current Basic Program asking questions. I don t know why. Is it because you are too shy? There is no such thing as a stupid question. You should not think, My question is so stupid. Therefore I don t want to ask. Interpreted by Ven. Tenzin Gyurme; transcribed by Phuah Soon Ek, Vivien Ng and Aki Yeo; edited by Cecilia Tsong. Page 12 of 12